Re: [qubes-users] HCA reports - some advice please
On 11/23/20 1:42 PM, Steve Coleman wrote: On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 2:31 PM Andrew David Wong wrote: On 11/23/20 10:06 AM, Steve Coleman wrote: On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 9:33 AM Andrew David Wong wrote: I have a question about the HCL process and page display that I have been wondering about. I was for the longest time copying and pasting the HCL web page into a spreadsheet just so I could sort and delete out all the old information, as I was looking to replace my desktop system with something more up to date. I can't tell you how many times in the last three years I copied the HCL to this spreadsheet, and when my old desktop finally died I had to give up hope and just bought a new system sight unseen that was not on the list and I just hoped for the best. Fortunately, it worked out Ok. As it is right now it is difficult and getting increasingly harder to find just the latest hardware on the list as it seems that by the time something appears on the list it is no longer even available for purchase. Remember that these are almost all reports voluntarily submitted by users. If it's mostly old hardware, that's because few people with new hardware are submitting reports for that hardware. Agreed. But it is certainly possible to make this more of a discussion on how to give back to the community. The Qubes patriotic thing to do is to submit your successes so others can follow without so much fear and hesitation. We can't force anyone to submit reports, and we usually can't get new hardware to generate reports on ourselves. No, but a well-placed note/request at the end of the Qubes install process could go a long way to actually encourage them to submit the report to help others. The "how you can help" could also suggest this as a way to give back which is easy even for novices who were just introduced to Qubes. Make it a badge of honor. In fact, one could encourage people with questions to include a report link/ID where the fundamentals of their basic machine configuration would be available online for the experts to better understand the problem. Not everyone would necessarily want to give their anonymity away, but for some questions, this link could provide some valuable information about the hardware that would be easy to share. Good ideas! I've opened an issue for this: https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/6231 I've already implemented the documentation suggestions (as well as some similar ones inspired by your suggestions). For details, see the issue. Though, to be fair, the reports from the mailing list haven't been added in a while, so that might also be part of it. Very true, unfortunately. I submitted my "Dell XPS 8930" but it has not shown up yet. With 8 cores and 64GB of memory, it is already out of production but it is still available through other retailers. Somebody who is looking for a new beefy desktop may not see this on the HCL until it is no longer available anywhere. That is the same boat I was in when my desktop up and died and I had no choice but to draw straws and pick one almost at random. Yes, there were other *very old* XPS's on the HCL and some did *not* work properly, but based on the hardware in this one I figured it might just work. Unfortunately, this only has a "firmware TPM" that is disabled in BIOS when using the legacy boot settings and there is no header on the motherboard to even add a physical TPM. I may just dabble with the idea of a qubes auditable software-based vTPM (qTPM) and see if I can find a way to make something work for the contributor's packages. Not sure about that yet, but it's an idea that might even allow for locking down the boot partition by making it read-only until after a successful boot/login. Evil maids can't change what they can't edit. We've decided to recruit an additional HCL maintainer to get reports from the mailing list onto the website more quickly. I've sent a message to these lists about it. However, there are LOTS of machines that you could only find on eBay and many/most lack sufficient memory, BIOS, or current chipset support for the current Qubes R4.x system being developed. Old systems on the HCL are seemingly never updated, so you can't tell which ones are still working and which ones have retired years ago. There are many items on that list even in the wrong categories (e.g. DIY System boards in the Desktop section when there is a separate section just for those) and I see no defined process by which to help change that. My question is this: What would it take to get a set of simple filter options on that HCL webpage? This open issue is very similar to what you're asking: https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/3795 I've just opened two PRs (linked to this issue) that make the HCL tables sortable. However, some rows break on sorting. Please see the issue comments for more details and an image showing exactly how it breaks. If you can help with this, please
Re: [qubes-users] HCA reports - some advice please
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 2:31 PM Andrew David Wong wrote: > On 11/23/20 10:06 AM, Steve Coleman wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 9:33 AM Andrew David Wong > wrote: > > > I have a question about the HCL process and page display that I have been > > wondering about. > > > > I was for the longest time copying and pasting the HCL web page into a > > spreadsheet just so I could sort and delete out all the old information, > as > > I was looking to replace my desktop system with something more up to > date. > > I can't tell you how many times in the last three years I copied the HCL > to > > this spreadsheet, and when my old desktop finally died I had to give up > > hope and just bought a new system sight unseen that was not on the list > and > > I just hoped for the best. Fortunately, it worked out Ok. > > > > As it is right now it is difficult and getting increasingly harder to > find > > just the latest hardware on the list as it seems that by the time > something > > appears on the list it is no longer even available for purchase. > > Remember that these are almost all reports voluntarily submitted by > users. If it's mostly old hardware, that's because few people with new > hardware are submitting reports for that hardware. Agreed. But it is certainly possible to make this more of a discussion on how to give back to the community. The Qubes patriotic thing to do is to submit your successes so others can follow without so much fear and hesitation. We can't force anyone > to submit reports, and we usually can't get new hardware to generate > reports on ourselves. No, but a well-placed note/request at the end of the Qubes install process could go a long way to actually encourage them to submit the report to help others. The "how you can help" could also suggest this as a way to give back which is easy even for novices who were just introduced to Qubes. Make it a badge of honor. In fact, one could encourage people with questions to include a report link/ID where the fundamentals of their basic machine configuration would be available online for the experts to better understand the problem. Not everyone would necessarily want to give their anonymity away, but for some questions, this link could provide some valuable information about the hardware that would be easy to share. > Though, to be fair, the reports from the mailing > list haven't been added in a while, so that might also be part of it. > Very true, unfortunately. I submitted my "Dell XPS 8930" but it has not shown up yet. With 8 cores and 64GB of memory, it is already out of production but it is still available through other retailers. Somebody who is looking for a new beefy desktop may not see this on the HCL until it is no longer available anywhere. That is the same boat I was in when my desktop up and died and I had no choice but to draw straws and pick one almost at random. Yes, there were other *very old* XPS's on the HCL and some did *not* work properly, but based on the hardware in this one I figured it might just work. Unfortunately, this only has a "firmware TPM" that is disabled in BIOS when using the legacy boot settings and there is no header on the motherboard to even add a physical TPM. I may just dabble with the idea of a qubes auditable software-based vTPM (qTPM) and see if I can find a way to make something work for the contributor's packages. Not sure about that yet, but it's an idea that might even allow for locking down the boot partition by making it read-only until after a successful boot/login. Evil maids can't change what they can't edit. > However, > > there are LOTS of machines that you could only find on eBay and many/most > > lack sufficient memory, BIOS, or current chipset support for the current > > Qubes R4.x system being developed. Old systems on the HCL are seemingly > > never updated, so you can't tell which ones are still working and which > > ones have retired years ago. There are many items on that list even in > the > > wrong categories (e.g. DIY System boards in the Desktop section when > there > > is a separate section just for those) and I see no defined process by > which > > to help change that. > > > > My question is this: What would it take to get a set of simple filter > > options on that HCL webpage? > > This open issue is very similar to what you're asking: > > https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/3795 > > I've just opened two PRs (linked to this issue) that make the HCL tables > sortable. However, some rows break on sorting. Please see the issue > comments for more details and an image showing exactly how it breaks. If > you can help with this, please let me know on that issue. > > > Or, is there a way for someone to help clean > > up and better organize this list? > > > > There are two main ways you can help: > > 1. Help un-break the aforementioned sorting, or provide a better way to > sort or filter the tables. > > 2. Submit a PR that modifies or removes old or bad HCL entries: > >
Re: [qubes-users] HCA reports - some advice please
On 11/23/20 10:06 AM, Steve Coleman wrote: On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 9:33 AM Andrew David Wong wrote: If you can fix them first, that would be a great help! I think it would make things easier for our HCL maintainer. :) Usually, it's just the model number for that product, e.g., "FX-8320" is short for "AMD FX(tm)-8320 Eight-Core Processor". Take a look at the existing entries for examples: https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-hcl/tree/master I am thinking of including the cpio files, but do not want to share a serial number that they contain. WOuld those files be useful to others if I edited them so that the serial number reads "Redacted"? Sure, feel free to redact whatever you like. :) If you prefer, you can send the cpio files directly to Marek PGP-encrypted (instead of the to the mailing list). See here for more info: https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/hcl/#generating-and-submitting-new-reports I have a question about the HCL process and page display that I have been wondering about. I was for the longest time copying and pasting the HCL web page into a spreadsheet just so I could sort and delete out all the old information, as I was looking to replace my desktop system with something more up to date. I can't tell you how many times in the last three years I copied the HCL to this spreadsheet, and when my old desktop finally died I had to give up hope and just bought a new system sight unseen that was not on the list and I just hoped for the best. Fortunately, it worked out Ok. As it is right now it is difficult and getting increasingly harder to find just the latest hardware on the list as it seems that by the time something appears on the list it is no longer even available for purchase. Remember that these are almost all reports voluntarily submitted by users. If it's mostly old hardware, that's because few people with new hardware are submitting reports for that hardware. We can't force anyone to submit reports, and we usually can't get new hardware to generate reports on ourselves. Though, to be fair, the reports from the mailing list haven't been added in a while, so that might also be part of it. However, there are LOTS of machines that you could only find on eBay and many/most lack sufficient memory, BIOS, or current chipset support for the current Qubes R4.x system being developed. Old systems on the HCL are seemingly never updated, so you can't tell which ones are still working and which ones have retired years ago. There are many items on that list even in the wrong categories (e.g. DIY System boards in the Desktop section when there is a separate section just for those) and I see no defined process by which to help change that. My question is this: What would it take to get a set of simple filter options on that HCL webpage? This open issue is very similar to what you're asking: https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/3795 I've just opened two PRs (linked to this issue) that make the HCL tables sortable. However, some rows break on sorting. Please see the issue comments for more details and an image showing exactly how it breaks. If you can help with this, please let me know on that issue. Or, is there a way for someone to help clean up and better organize this list? There are two main ways you can help: 1. Help un-break the aforementioned sorting, or provide a better way to sort or filter the tables. 2. Submit a PR that modifies or removes old or bad HCL entries: https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-hcl/tree/master Going forward it is not all that helpful to see what was historically running, years ago, if they are no longer adequate for the current Qubes R4.x baseline. My inclination is this lists' primary function should be to support those who are looking for some adequate hardware that could run the current baseline, and failing that test, it should be filtered out by default. Or maybe just filter by date added/updated? I can understand the motivation behind removing old entries for EOL Qubes releases. If those entries are truly of no use to anyone, then there is not much reason to keep them around. But perhaps there's some value in keeping the old entries that we're overlooking. I'm curious whether Chris and Marek have any opinions on this. Another idea is to have separate HCL tables for each Qubes release, or even entirely separate HCL *pages* for each Qubes release. This might make sense as part of our plan for release-specific documentation: https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/5308 Another thought is we should actively request those who successfully upgrade their systems to the latest baseline to resubmit their HCL thus showing that the same system is still capable of running the latest baseline number. I know matching old and new HCL reports would require some work, but I think if you want Qubes to be more popular this is a must. We can request it, but I'm not sure how much uptake we'll get. In practice,
Re: [qubes-users] HCA reports - some advice please
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 9:33 AM Andrew David Wong wrote: > > If you can fix them first, that would be a great help! I think it would > make things easier for our HCL maintainer. :) > > Usually, it's just the model number for that product, e.g., "FX-8320" is > short for "AMD FX(tm)-8320 Eight-Core Processor". Take a look at the > existing entries for examples: > > https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-hcl/tree/master > > > I am thinking of including the cpio files, but do not want to share a > > serial number that they contain. WOuld those files be useful to others > > if I edited them so that the serial number reads "Redacted"? > > > > Sure, feel free to redact whatever you like. :) > > If you prefer, you can send the cpio files directly to Marek > PGP-encrypted (instead of the to the mailing list). See here for more info: > > https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/hcl/#generating-and-submitting-new-reports > > I have a question about the HCL process and page display that I have been wondering about. I was for the longest time copying and pasting the HCL web page into a spreadsheet just so I could sort and delete out all the old information, as I was looking to replace my desktop system with something more up to date. I can't tell you how many times in the last three years I copied the HCL to this spreadsheet, and when my old desktop finally died I had to give up hope and just bought a new system sight unseen that was not on the list and I just hoped for the best. Fortunately, it worked out Ok. As it is right now it is difficult and getting increasingly harder to find just the latest hardware on the list as it seems that by the time something appears on the list it is no longer even available for purchase. However, there are LOTS of machines that you could only find on eBay and many/most lack sufficient memory, BIOS, or current chipset support for the current Qubes R4.x system being developed. Old systems on the HCL are seemingly never updated, so you can't tell which ones are still working and which ones have retired years ago. There are many items on that list even in the wrong categories (e.g. DIY System boards in the Desktop section when there is a separate section just for those) and I see no defined process by which to help change that. My question is this: What would it take to get a set of simple filter options on that HCL webpage? Or, is there a way for someone to help clean up and better organize this list? Going forward it is not all that helpful to see what was historically running, years ago, if they are no longer adequate for the current Qubes R4.x baseline. My inclination is this lists' primary function should be to support those who are looking for some adequate hardware that could run the current baseline, and failing that test, it should be filtered out by default. Or maybe just filter by date added/updated? Another thought is we should actively request those who successfully upgrade their systems to the latest baseline to resubmit their HCL thus showing that the same system is still capable of running the latest baseline number. I know matching old and new HCL reports would require some work, but I think if you want Qubes to be more popular this is a must. At the very least the list should have a way to display only those currently running R4.x.x by default, but then let someone tweak the filter settings to look at older hardware if they choose to do so. thanks, Steve -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/CAJ5FDng7sc9LTtm11jJDzwHEopQ7F9m2QE_YmtC_oVc5GV_iCQ%40mail.gmail.com.
Re: [qubes-users] HCA reports - some advice please
On 11/22/20 10:50 AM, River~~ wrote: hi I have got a new computer working, and it is a model new to Qubes not just. (Guess who got it cheap on an early bird reduction on kickstarter then :) So, I am going to send in the HCA report. Thank you! I have produced the .yml file. It contains some FIXME items. I am unclear: is it up to e to fix them, or are they a note to whoever processes the report before posting to the HCA page? If you can fix them first, that would be a great help! I think it would make things easier for our HCL maintainer. :) If I have to edit them, what do I use for the "short" items? Am I reasonably free to abbreviate? Usually, it's just the model number for that product, e.g., "FX-8320" is short for "AMD FX(tm)-8320 Eight-Core Processor". Take a look at the existing entries for examples: https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-hcl/tree/master I am thinking of including the cpio files, but do not want to share a serial number that they contain. WOuld those files be useful to others if I edited them so that the serial number reads "Redacted"? Sure, feel free to redact whatever you like. :) If you prefer, you can send the cpio files directly to Marek PGP-encrypted (instead of the to the mailing list). See here for more info: https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/hcl/#generating-and-submitting-new-reports Finally, the manufacturer's name shown in the .yml is different from the name they used on kickstarter. Would it help, or would it cause confusion, if I added at the end of their name "t/a MinisForum"? It would be ok, but perhaps including this in the comment field instead would make it more likely that your manufacturer field matches any other reports submitted for products from the same manufacturer. -- Andrew David Wong (Axon) Community Manager, Qubes OS https://www.qubes-os.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/3c1006ac-6a1d-c1cf-0dca-959c97156d1a%40qubes-os.org. OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
