Re: Re: Re: AW: Re: [qubes-users] Installing Chrome
On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 11:16:46 PM UTC+1, [799] wrote: > Hello Yuraeitha, > > Thanks for the clarification, I think we share some common values. > > > > -- > Qubes 4rc3 > Lenovo X230 + Lenovo W540 > > Gesendet von ProtonMail mobile > > > > > Original-Nachricht > An 27. Feb. 2018, 02:48, Yuraeitha schrieb: > > > > > Okay I may have come on a bit strong worded, > > I apologize that I ended up being rude. > > Nevertheless I'm not reclaiming my criticism > > before convinced otherwise. > > Thanks for the reply, as always in written communication it's sometimes hard > to read the intention by just reading the words. > > > > I definitely have projects I'm working on, such > > as QubesTV, QubesNAS, Qubes update script, > > Qubes screenshot scripts, etc. > > If possible share it, I am heavily interested in a better screenshot solution > and come up with a first prototype to be able to copy a screenshot (made in > dom0) into the clipboard of a predefined AppVM. > (Search for qvm-screenshot-to-clipboard on GitHub) > Warning: it is a working solution but currently without any error handling, > happy to hear feedback from a security view as I am far away from being an > expert there. > > > My beef with this is that Qubes is about being > > open source, decentralization (Qubes Air > > which was planned almost a decade ago > > now), retaining control of ones own system, > > etc. If there are just as good open source > > solutions, or even nearly just as good ones, > > then these should be mentioned and > > included. > > I totally agree and that is what I am doing everyday when I talk to my > "enterprise" customers when the decide to use windows or VMware just because > it is "more of an enterprise solution" (mainly because it costs money :-/). > Of course I don't agree with this argument. > Open Source is great, and if I would have known about an open source solution > I would have mention this. > > > While sure Qubes is primarily about security > > and less focused about privacy, but Qubes is > > also about open source and retaining control > > of your system. > > Agreed and I think that you can still gain privacy and security benefits when > using "closed source" solution with Qubes just by using different Qubes. > Let me put it this way, if I am really concerned about privacy I would not > use Amazon Prime/Netflix at all because you become very transparent when > someone knows what you are watching/reading and when. > > > To put this straight, I don't care if users can > > just choose to do something else, the fact > > that it's not following the spirit of what Qubes > > is all about, is what I care about. > > Understand you point, still I think that every person who is using Linux or > even better Qubes is a large win as more people learn that there are > alternatives. > Maybe the use Linux and Chrome in the beginning and some day companies see > that there is a critical mass, so that it makes sense to develop cross > platform solution. > I don't expect that every company has to go open source, maybe because they > want to protect their ownership/development costs. But I would like to use > their software on my Operation System of choice. > So the biggest topic is not that I have to use closed source/proprietary > software but that I need to sacrifice lots of features when working in the > classic "enterprise app" environment. > Example: > > Our ERP System, Our CTI Application (ESTOS), Cisco WebEx/Cisco Jabber/Spark, > Microsoft Office/Outlook, our main IT Service Tool (Remote Desktop Manager) > are mainly running on top of of Windows, some offer a limited feature set > when using web-alternatives, but there are no native Linux Apps, which is > shame. > I am running Qubes OS as primary OS but it is (for my job role) impossible > without using Windows or other closed source apps. > That's also why I really hope to see ongoing Windows AppVM support in Qubes > which I honestly think is a major feature being able to run Qubes. > > > (...) I also enjoy discussions trying to reach a > > common shared ground. That's what > > discussions are all about to begin with after > > all. > > Agreed. > > [799] I'm glad that we're on good terms again, it's been bothering me a lot since I made that mistake. You make a good point that it can be hard to read peoples intends in written communication too, with the lack of body language and voice, dynamic communication and such, I definitely agree. Although I could have written that much better by not making that mistake, so it's still my fault even so, I will have to learn from that experience. I can relate with the Windows issues, I've recently become fully Linux (Qubes) by finally becoming fully accustomed when I ditched MS-Office for LibreOffice (I couldn't do that for years, but finally made it fully across), which was my last nail in the Microsoft coffin. But I still have friends, and the
Re: Re: AW: Re: [qubes-users] Installing Chrome
On Tuesday, 27 February 2018 11:39:03 UTC, Yuraeitha wrote: > On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 3:06:36 AM UTC+1, brenda...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 7:21:11 PM UTC-5, [799] wrote: > > > An 27. Feb. 2018, 00:59, Yuraeitha schrieb: > > > > It is by no means a complete guide as you > > > > make it sound though, it's relying overly much > > > > on closed code, and Chromium is no good > > > > here to look into Google Chrome. I wouldn't > > > > call it the "go to" guide to get everything > > > > working. > > > > > > Seriously? Do you know how much time it takes to write a how-to? To test > > > all > > > steps and to use the feedback from other committed users to make it > > > better? > > > And as mentioned the guide is written for a special use case, playing > > > multimedia on Qubes as I wanted an OS which I can use for everything I'm > > > using > > > a laptop for. > > > > Hey, just wanted to say: thanks for the guide, it's great. :) > > > > One of the strengths of Qubes is that you *can* divide your usage into > > compartments which have different compromises (both security-wise and > > philosophy-wise). A full-out "yes, we can Netflix and ... well, popcorn in > > this case" Qube and separately have a "open source intelligence research > > behind VPN and/or TOR" Qube or "develop sensitive open source application" > > Qube on the same machine, *and* worry less about cross contamination > > (security, software development ethics, identities, etc.) is just a big win. > > > > Again: thanks! I am already using your guide and I appreciate all the work > > you and others put into it. > > > > ... > > > > The fact that Firefox isn't even mentioned in > > > > that "between the lines self-proclaimed all > > > > solution page guide", makes me a bit sad and > > > > disappointed in Qubes. I hope this is a > > > > mistake. > > > > > > Honestly it was me writing this "self-proclaimed all solution page guide" > > > which took me lots of hours starting from the first version and following > > > the > > > excellent feedback from other users to improve it. > > > Maybe you should provide content instead of being sad that others try to > > > contribute to the Qubes project? > > > > Great idea! Maybe Yuraeitha can write up a "multimedia, most of it, with > > firefox" guide? I have seen Yuraeitha add useful information on other > > threads in this forum, appears to be very engaged and generally appears to > > mean well. > > > > > Do you know how motivating it feels if people comment on your work like > > > you're > > > doing? > > > > I hope I have at least added some positive balance. :) > > > > > If my how-to will convince one user to try out Qubes because he can even > > > do > > > the "evil closed source" stuff, I am happy. > > > > :) > > > > Brendan > > I think you add positive balance Brendan, I like that you try to see both > parties views and seek to make peace. Although I did overstep and caused a > provocation, when I could have criticized without it becoming emotional. Even > if I did not do it intentionally, it's still something I need to take > responsibility for. > > To which I really apologize for [799], I hope we can still see eye to eye. By > the way, even if I criticized your how-to doc here, there are two things that > soften the perceived written criticism (quite a lot actually), which I want > to underline. First the work you did is really good, I like what you did. > What I criticized is only a lack of work into open alternatives, and not the > work you did, which is good (which the criticism here takes a whole different > character when criticizing an institution/culture rather than a single > person). Adding a section to the how-to with minimum a brief mention of > privacy/open-source concerns could be a good quick solution as a disclaimer, > which would fend off this criticism even if you don't add open source > solutions. Second, I want to admit that I make mistakes too (which is > obvious, but the point here is that I'm admitting to it, in fact I make a lot > of mistakes). I'm not trying to belittle, be arrogant or feel superior (I > don't). It's just that my writing style can be very straight forward and it > can risk sounding harsh. Adding on-top of that, I can be pretty darned > merciless when it comes to challenging authority, which is not how I act > towards individual people. I believed in the moment of the writing that what > I challenged, did not have a face or emotions, but instead was a system, an > authority through institutionalization/culture. But it turned out the wrath I > put forward actually hit a person, which was not my intention at all. Shaking > things up can sometimes fix issues in institutions, but it's not a good > approach for individual people. I hope you will forgive me for being rude > towards you, I do feel bad about it... Especially when as a person a mistake > like this is very minor,
Re: Re: AW: Re: [qubes-users] Installing Chrome
On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 3:06:36 AM UTC+1, brenda...@gmail.com wrote: > On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 7:21:11 PM UTC-5, [799] wrote: > > An 27. Feb. 2018, 00:59, Yuraeitha schrieb: > > > It is by no means a complete guide as you > > > make it sound though, it's relying overly much > > > on closed code, and Chromium is no good > > > here to look into Google Chrome. I wouldn't > > > call it the "go to" guide to get everything > > > working. > > > > Seriously? Do you know how much time it takes to write a how-to? To test all > > steps and to use the feedback from other committed users to make it better? > > And as mentioned the guide is written for a special use case, playing > > multimedia on Qubes as I wanted an OS which I can use for everything I'm > > using > > a laptop for. > > Hey, just wanted to say: thanks for the guide, it's great. :) > > One of the strengths of Qubes is that you *can* divide your usage into > compartments which have different compromises (both security-wise and > philosophy-wise). A full-out "yes, we can Netflix and ... well, popcorn in > this case" Qube and separately have a "open source intelligence research > behind VPN and/or TOR" Qube or "develop sensitive open source application" > Qube on the same machine, *and* worry less about cross contamination > (security, software development ethics, identities, etc.) is just a big win. > > Again: thanks! I am already using your guide and I appreciate all the work > you and others put into it. > > ... > > > The fact that Firefox isn't even mentioned in > > > that "between the lines self-proclaimed all > > > solution page guide", makes me a bit sad and > > > disappointed in Qubes. I hope this is a > > > mistake. > > > > Honestly it was me writing this "self-proclaimed all solution page guide" > > which took me lots of hours starting from the first version and following > > the > > excellent feedback from other users to improve it. > > Maybe you should provide content instead of being sad that others try to > > contribute to the Qubes project? > > Great idea! Maybe Yuraeitha can write up a "multimedia, most of it, with > firefox" guide? I have seen Yuraeitha add useful information on other threads > in this forum, appears to be very engaged and generally appears to mean well. > > > Do you know how motivating it feels if people comment on your work like > > you're > > doing? > > I hope I have at least added some positive balance. :) > > > If my how-to will convince one user to try out Qubes because he can even do > > the "evil closed source" stuff, I am happy. > > :) > > Brendan I think you add positive balance Brendan, I like that you try to see both parties views and seek to make peace. Although I did overstep and caused a provocation, when I could have criticized without it becoming emotional. Even if I did not do it intentionally, it's still something I need to take responsibility for. To which I really apologize for [799], I hope we can still see eye to eye. By the way, even if I criticized your how-to doc here, there are two things that soften the perceived written criticism (quite a lot actually), which I want to underline. First the work you did is really good, I like what you did. What I criticized is only a lack of work into open alternatives, and not the work you did, which is good (which the criticism here takes a whole different character when criticizing an institution/culture rather than a single person). Adding a section to the how-to with minimum a brief mention of privacy/open-source concerns could be a good quick solution as a disclaimer, which would fend off this criticism even if you don't add open source solutions. Second, I want to admit that I make mistakes too (which is obvious, but the point here is that I'm admitting to it, in fact I make a lot of mistakes). I'm not trying to belittle, be arrogant or feel superior (I don't). It's just that my writing style can be very straight forward and it can risk sounding harsh. Adding on-top of that, I can be pretty darned merciless when it comes to challenging authority, which is not how I act towards individual people. I believed in the moment of the writing that what I challenged, did not have a face or emotions, but instead was a system, an authority through institutionalization/culture. But it turned out the wrath I put forward actually hit a person, which was not my intention at all. Shaking things up can sometimes fix issues in institutions, but it's not a good approach for individual people. I hope you will forgive me for being rude towards you, I do feel bad about it... Especially when as a person a mistake like this is very minor, while in contrast it would be big mistake if it's an institutional error when a lot of people are involved in it and no one criticizes it (which is where the big words are needed to shake things up). I'm not trying to write my self out of a mistake here, because I
Re: Re: AW: Re: [qubes-users] Installing Chrome
On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 7:21:11 PM UTC-5, [799] wrote: > An 27. Feb. 2018, 00:59, Yuraeitha schrieb: > > It is by no means a complete guide as you > > make it sound though, it's relying overly much > > on closed code, and Chromium is no good > > here to look into Google Chrome. I wouldn't > > call it the "go to" guide to get everything > > working. > > Seriously? Do you know how much time it takes to write a how-to? To test all > steps and to use the feedback from other committed users to make it better? > And as mentioned the guide is written for a special use case, playing > multimedia on Qubes as I wanted an OS which I can use for everything I'm using > a laptop for. Hey, just wanted to say: thanks for the guide, it's great. :) One of the strengths of Qubes is that you *can* divide your usage into compartments which have different compromises (both security-wise and philosophy-wise). A full-out "yes, we can Netflix and ... well, popcorn in this case" Qube and separately have a "open source intelligence research behind VPN and/or TOR" Qube or "develop sensitive open source application" Qube on the same machine, *and* worry less about cross contamination (security, software development ethics, identities, etc.) is just a big win. Again: thanks! I am already using your guide and I appreciate all the work you and others put into it. ... > > The fact that Firefox isn't even mentioned in > > that "between the lines self-proclaimed all > > solution page guide", makes me a bit sad and > > disappointed in Qubes. I hope this is a > > mistake. > > Honestly it was me writing this "self-proclaimed all solution page guide" > which took me lots of hours starting from the first version and following the > excellent feedback from other users to improve it. > Maybe you should provide content instead of being sad that others try to > contribute to the Qubes project? Great idea! Maybe Yuraeitha can write up a "multimedia, most of it, with firefox" guide? I have seen Yuraeitha add useful information on other threads in this forum, appears to be very engaged and generally appears to mean well. > Do you know how motivating it feels if people comment on your work like you're > doing? I hope I have at least added some positive balance. :) > If my how-to will convince one user to try out Qubes because he can even do > the "evil closed source" stuff, I am happy. :) Brendan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/24823396-5c20-4c93-ba52-1398ea8a905f%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Re: AW: Re: [qubes-users] Installing Chrome
On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 1:21:11 AM UTC+1, [799] wrote: > Hello, > > Original-Nachricht > An 27. Feb. 2018, 00:59, Yuraeitha schrieb: > > > It is by no means a complete guide as you > > make it sound though, it's relying overly much > > on closed code, and Chromium is no good > > here to look into Google Chrome. I wouldn't > > call it the "go to" guide to get everything > > working. > > Seriously? Do you know how much time it takes to write a how-to? To test all > steps and to use the feedback from other committed users to make it better? > And as mentioned the guide is written for a special use case, playing > multimedia on Qubes as I wanted an OS which I can use for everything I'm > using a laptop for. > > > Also as far as my opinion goes, Google > > Chromes one and only strong point is the > > support of Silverlight content, which is not a > > technical strength, but monopolize of pure > > power on a free market in a democracy. It just > > downright sucks. > > The good thing is that you are totally free to use whatever you want to > choose. > And yes it would be better if all content and app providers are offering > solutions for "the rest of us", but they aren't and the workarround using > chrome is good for everyone who likes to use Netflix & Co. I don't think that > sucks. It's better (for some) to use chrome on qubes instead of Windows to > stream video content. > But yes, if we could use a default Linux installation to do all this task, > this would be great. > > > Firefox will play everything around, as long as > > the content delivery isn't scamming their > > customers by using platform monopolized > > Silverlight. > > Doesn't make sense to me, as you're saying Firefox plays everything, as long > ... > The fact is: currently Firefox is not playing all content. And yes it sucks. > > > Microsoft's hate towards Linux seems as > > strong as ever, despite their so called claims > > for otherwise. > > Any evidence for this strong argument? As far as I know Microsoft is even > using some Linux technologies (Linux on Windows / Linux on Azure / ...) > > > If possible, we really shouldn't support > > scumbag companies doing something as > > manipulative like this, which is on a level only > > a real psychopathic sick person would pull > > off. > > the good thing is ... You don't have to. > > > The fact that Firefox isn't even mentioned in > > that "between the lines self-proclaimed all > > solution page guide", makes me a bit sad and > > disappointed in Qubes. I hope this is a > > mistake. > > Honestly it was me writing this "self-proclaimed all solution page guide" > which took me lots of hours starting from the first version and following the > excellent feedback from other users to improve it. > Maybe you should provide content instead of being sad that others try to > contribute to the Qubes project? > Do you know how motivating it feels if people comment on your work like > you're doing? > The Qubes documentation is done by all of us, if you want to add a section > how you can use Firefox to play content, feel free to do so. > Make a difference! > And if you think Chrome, closed source content providers are the devil, don't > use it, but I think giving users options is always a good thing. > > If my how-to will convince one user to try out Qubes because he can even do > the "evil closed source" stuff, I am happy. > > [799] Okay I may have come on a bit strong worded, I apologize that I ended up being rude. Nevertheless I'm not reclaiming my criticism before convinced otherwise. I didn't know who wrote that guide, or the name awokd mentioned. I didn't check, and frankly I don't need to know who wrote it to criticize it, it's not that I would have second thoughts about criticizing it if it was someone else who wrote it. If you've read some of my other posts here on Qubes user threads, I naturally criticize without holding back, it's within my personality to oppose institutionalized logic which appear to show flaws, it's not a personal attack. My goal is objective truth, I don't care about reputation or things like that, we can't live in a functional peaceful world if we don't seek out truth. I also expect others to criticism me or my criticism, not only for the sake of objective truth, but also because it's the greatest way to learn, to learn from mistakes. Being able to admit a mistake, will even accelerate learning. btw I know very well how long it takes to write how to's, as I write how to's my self. None of them have been posted to Qubes doc's yet, but I definitely have projects I'm working on, such as QubesTV, QubesNAS, Qubes update script, Qubes screenshot scripts, etc. My beef with this is that Qubes is about being open source, decentralization (Qubes Air which was planned almost a decade ago now), retaining control of ones own system, etc. If there are just as good open source solutions, or even nearly just
