Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-27 Thread Uwe Klein
David Woolley wrote: Jason wrote: So, what would be a characteristic symptom or tell-tale of jamming? Simple jamming, as used to defeat vehicle tracking, would result in the loss of all satellites. Sophisticated jamming, to produce a false time, would, for its target, produce a slow drift i

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-25 Thread David Woolley
Jason wrote: So, what would be a characteristic symptom or tell-tale of jamming? Simple jamming, as used to defeat vehicle tracking, would result in the loss of all satellites. Sophisticated jamming, to produce a false time, would, for its target, produce a slow drift in the time, with no al

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-25 Thread Jason
On 22-Feb-12 17:28, Chris Albertson wrote: Should be easy to build a hand held jammer detector with a directional antenna that the user can sweep around.Or they can put the detector at the car ferry toll both.In theory jammer detectors could be cheaper to build than GPS receivers. Could

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread Dave Hart
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 00:23, John Hasler wrote: > Dave Hart writes: >> Given the dwinding number of such clocks and relatively arcane grid >> operational reasons, there's been some movement to abandon the >> corrections, which seems to be stalled at the moment. > > I thought that they had alread

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread David J Taylor
"unruh" wrote in message news:viy1r.9526$1i2.3...@newsfe08.iad... On 2012-02-23, j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: [] There are very few civilian systems where absolute time accuracy greater than 1 second is an operational requirement and none that I can think of

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread Charles Elliott
s-bounces+elliott.ch=verizon@lists.ntp.org] On > Behalf Of unruh > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:41 PM > To: questions@lists.ntp.org > Subject: Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping > Time for Fraud Suggested > > On 2012-02-23, Richard B. Gilbert

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread John Hasler
Dave Hart writes: > Given the dwinding number of such clocks and relatively arcane grid > operational reasons, there's been some movement to abandon the > corrections, which seems to be stalled at the moment. I thought that they had already decided to go ahead with it. >

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread John Hasler
David Woolley writes: > I believe that, in the UK, only the long term timing has ever been > guaranteed. The frequency goes down at peak load and is increased at > other times, to compensate. That was true in the USA as well, but with grids getting larger and the number and types of sources incre

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread jimp
Rick Jones wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> On 2/22/2012 5:16 PM, David Woolley wrote: >> > An article in the Metro, the free morning paper on the London commuter >> > transport network, suggests that criminals may be using GPS jamming >> > equipment to warp the time on financial systems to

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread David Woolley
Richard B. Gilbert wrote: GPS is not the only source of time! My impression is that the sort of organisation that has lots of money to spend, has management with arts degrees, and from which large amounts of money can be extracted by changing the apparent order of events, tend to prefer

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread David Woolley
Rick Jones wrote: Wasn't there something about an experiment to relax the frequency requirements on the power grid in North America? And the financial I believe that, in the UK, only the long term timing has ever been guaranteed. The frequency goes down at peak load and is increased at o

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread Rick Jones
Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > On 2/22/2012 5:16 PM, David Woolley wrote: > > An article in the Metro, the free morning paper on the London commuter > > transport network, suggests that criminals may be using GPS jamming > > equipment to warp the time on financial systems to allow the commission > >

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread Dave Hart
On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 21:40, unruh wrote: > On 2012-02-23, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> In the U.S. 60 cycle Alternating Current is the standard and the source >> of time.  It's not going to give you the nanoseconds but very few people >> could even explain what a nanosecond is let alone needin

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread unruh
On 2012-02-23, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > On 2/22/2012 5:16 PM, David Woolley wrote: >> An article in the Metro, the free morning paper on the London commuter >> transport network, suggests that criminals may be using GPS jamming >> equipment to warp the time on financial systems to allow the com

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread unruh
On 2012-02-23, j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> On 2/22/2012 5:16 PM, David Woolley wrote: >>> An article in the Metro, the free morning paper on the London commuter >>> transport network, suggests that criminals may be using GPS jamming >>> equipment to warp the ti

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread unruh
On 2012-02-23, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > On 2/22/2012 5:16 PM, David Woolley wrote: >> An article in the Metro, the free morning paper on the London commuter >> transport network, suggests that criminals may be using GPS jamming >> equipment to warp the time on financial systems to allow the com

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread jimp
E-Mail Sent to this address will be added to the BlackLists wrote: > j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >> In this case what is being jammed is position, not time, >> and this is so smarter car thieves can defeat systems like LoJack. >> >> This is a much easier case as all that has to be jammed >>

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread Chris Albertson
On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> > GPS is not the only source of time! > > In the U.S. 60 cycle Alternating Current is the standard and the source of > time. No. It is not the "standard" It is at best a "commonalty used frequency source". Absolute time is not t

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread E-Mail Sent to this address will be added to the BlackLists
j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > In this case what is being jammed is position, not time, > and this is so smarter car thieves can defeat systems like LoJack. > > This is a much easier case as all that has to be jammed > is the GPS in the car being stolen. LoJack is a radio beacon, it transmit

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread Chuck Swiger
On Feb 23, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > On 2/22/2012 5:16 PM, David Woolley wrote: >> An article in the Metro, the free morning paper on the London commuter >> transport network, suggests that criminals may be using GPS jamming >> equipment to warp the time on financial systems to

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread jimp
Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > On 2/22/2012 5:16 PM, David Woolley wrote: >> An article in the Metro, the free morning paper on the London commuter >> transport network, suggests that criminals may be using GPS jamming >> equipment to warp the time on financial systems to allow the commission >> of f

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread Richard B. Gilbert
On 2/22/2012 5:16 PM, David Woolley wrote: An article in the Metro, the free morning paper on the London commuter transport network, suggests that criminals may be using GPS jamming equipment to warp the time on financial systems to allow the commission of fraud. GPS is not the only source of t

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread Richard B. Gilbert
On 2/22/2012 5:16 PM, David Woolley wrote: An article in the Metro, the free morning paper on the London commuter transport network, suggests that criminals may be using GPS jamming equipment to warp the time on financial systems to allow the commission of fraud. GPS is not the only source of t

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-23 Thread David Woolley
Chris Albertson wrote: That depends on the time scale. Over all it is wide because they have to allow for all the doppler shifts but at any one instant in time a spread spectrum is a narrow band radio. It is direct sequence, not frequency hopping. I think the spread spectrum is more to do wi

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-22 Thread Chris Albertson
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 6:01 PM, John Hasler wrote: > Chris writes: >> A sophisticated jammer would know exactly when to transmit over one >> bit or two bits, and in a narrow band just enough to corrupt the GPS >> data and would have a very lower average power output. > > That would be a very soph

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-22 Thread John Hasler
Chris writes: > A sophisticated jammer would know exactly when to transmit over one > bit or two bits, and in a narrow band just enough to corrupt the GPS > data and would have a very lower average power output. That would be a very sophisticated jammer indeed. GPS is not narrow band. It's sprea

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-22 Thread Joe Wulf
good name of 'hacker'.   > > From: David Woolley >To: questions@lists.ntp.org >Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 5:16 PM >Subject: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for >Fraud Suggested > >An article in the Metro, the

Re: [ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-22 Thread Chris Albertson
Should be easy to build a hand held jammer detector with a directional antenna that the user can sweep around.Or they can put the detector at the car ferry toll both.In theory jammer detectors could be cheaper to build than GPS receivers. Could you make one at home. I think all that is ne

[ntp:questions] GPS Jammers in Use by Criminals - Warping Time for Fraud Suggested

2012-02-22 Thread David Woolley
An article in the Metro, the free morning paper on the London commuter transport network, suggests that criminals may be using GPS jamming equipment to warp the time on financial systems to allow the commission of fraud. Although I can't find the source of that article, the BBC has an article