Re: [R] The "--slave" option ==> will become "--no-echo"
Apologies, Duncan and Martin. I didn't check "R --help" first. You're
quite right, lots of embedded hyphens.
Best Regards, Bill.
W. Michels, Ph.D.
On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 2:42 PM Duncan Murdoch wrote:
>
> On 27/09/2019 5:36 p.m., William Michels via R-help wrote:
> > Hi Martin,
> >
> > '--no-echo'
> >
> > or
> >
> > '--no_echo'
> >
> > Obviously you may prefer the first, but I hope you might consider the
> > second.
>
> Are you serious? That's a terrible suggestion. Run "R --help" and
> you'll see *no* options with underscores, and a dozen with embedded hyphens.
>
> Duncan Murdoch
>
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > W. Michels, Ph.D.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 9:04 AM Martin Maechler
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>> Martin Maechler
> >>> on Mon, 23 Sep 2019 16:14:36 +0200 writes:
> >>
> >>> Richard O'Keefe
> >>> on Sat, 21 Sep 2019 09:39:18 +1200 writes:
> >>
> >> >> Ah, *now* we're getting somewhere. There is something
> >> >> that *can* be done that's genuinely helpful.
> >> >>> From the R(1) manual page:
> >> >> -q, --quiet Don't print startup message
> >>
> >> >> --silent Same as --quiet
> >>
> >> >> --slave Make R run as quietly as possible
> >>
> >> >> It might have been better to use --nobanner instead of
> >> >> --quiet. So perhaps
> >>
> >> >> -q, --quiet Don't print the startup message. This is
> >> >> the only output that is suppressed.
> >>
> >> >> --silent Same as --quiet. Suppress the startup
> >> >> message only.
> >>
> >> >> --slave Make R run as quietly as possible. This is
> >> >> for use when running R as a subordinate process. See
> >> >> "Introduction to Sub-Processes in R"
> >> >>
> >> https://cran.r-project.org/web/packages/subprocess/vignettes/intro.html
> >> >> for an example.
> >>
> >> > Thank you, Stephen and Richard.
> >>
> >> > I think we (the R Core Team) *can* make the description a bit
> >> > more verbose. However, as practically all "--" descriptions
> >> > are fitting in one short line, (and as the 'subprocess' package is
> >> just an
> >> > extension pkg, and may disappear (and more reasons)) I'd like to
> >> > be less verbose than your proposal.
> >>
> >> > What about
> >>
> >> > -q, --quiet Don't print startup message
> >>
> >> > --silent Same as --quiet
> >>
> >> > --slave Make R run as quietly as possible. For use when
> >> > runnning R as sub(ordinate) process.
> >>
> >> > If you look more closely, you'll notice that --slave is not much
> >> > quieter than --quiet, the only (?) difference being that the
> >> > input is not copied and (only "mostly") the R prompt is also not
> >> printed.
> >>
> >> > And from my experiments (in Linux (Fedora 30)), one might even
> >> > notice that in some cases --slave prints the R prompt (to stderr?)
> >> > which one might consider bogous (I'm not: not wanting to spend
> >> > time fixing this platform-independently) :
> >>
> >> > --slave :
> >> >
> >>
> >> > MM@lynne$ echo '(i <- 1:3)
> >> > i*10' | R-3.6.1 --slave --vanilla
> >> >> [1] 1 2 3
> >> > [1] 10 20 30
> >> > MM@lynne$ f=/tmp/Rslave.out$$; echo '(i <- 1:3)
> >> > i*10' | R-3.6.1 --slave --vanilla | tee $f
> >> >> [1] 1 2 3
> >> > [1] 10 20 30
> >> > MM@lynne$ cat $f
> >> > [1] 1 2 3
> >> > [1] 10 20 30
> >>
> >> > --quiet :
> >> >
> >>
> >> > MM@lynne$ f=/tmp/Rquiet.out$$; echo '(i <- 1:3)
> >> > i*10' | R-3.6.1 --quiet --vanilla | tee $f
> >> >> (i <- 1:3)
> >> > [1] 1 2 3
> >> >> i*10
> >> > [1] 10 20 30
> >> >>
> >> > MM@lynne$ cat $f
> >> >> (i <- 1:3)
> >> > [1] 1 2 3
> >> >> i*10
> >> > [1] 10 20 30
> >> >>
> >> > MM@lynne$
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > But there's a bit more to it: In my examples above, both --quiet
> >> > and --slave where used together with --vanilla. In general
> >> > --slave *also* never saves, i.e., uses the equivalent of
> >> > q('no'), where as --quiet does [ask or ...].
> >>
> >> > Last but not least, from very simply reading R's source code on
> >> > this, it becomes blatant that you can use '-s' instead of
> >> '--slave',
> >> > but we (R Core) have probably not documented that on purpose (so
> >> > we could reserve it for something more important, and redefine
> >> > the simple use of '-s' some time in the future ?)
> >>
> >> > So, all those who want to restrict their language could use '-s'
> >> > for now. In addition, we could add >> one << other alias to
> >> > --slave, say --subprocess (or --quieter ? or ???)
> >> > and one could make that the preferred use some time in the future.
> >>
> >> >
Re: [R] The "--slave" option ==> will become "--no-echo"
On 27/09/2019 5:36 p.m., William Michels via R-help wrote:
Hi Martin,
'--no-echo'
or
'--no_echo'
Obviously you may prefer the first, but I hope you might consider the second.
Are you serious? That's a terrible suggestion. Run "R --help" and
you'll see *no* options with underscores, and a dozen with embedded hyphens.
Duncan Murdoch
Best Regards,
W. Michels, Ph.D.
On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 9:04 AM Martin Maechler
wrote:
Martin Maechler
on Mon, 23 Sep 2019 16:14:36 +0200 writes:
Richard O'Keefe
on Sat, 21 Sep 2019 09:39:18 +1200 writes:
>> Ah, *now* we're getting somewhere. There is something
>> that *can* be done that's genuinely helpful.
>>> From the R(1) manual page:
>> -q, --quiet Don't print startup message
>> --silent Same as --quiet
>> --slave Make R run as quietly as possible
>> It might have been better to use --nobanner instead of
>> --quiet. So perhaps
>> -q, --quiet Don't print the startup message. This is
>> the only output that is suppressed.
>> --silent Same as --quiet. Suppress the startup
>> message only.
>> --slave Make R run as quietly as possible. This is
>> for use when running R as a subordinate process. See
>> "Introduction to Sub-Processes in R"
>> https://cran.r-project.org/web/packages/subprocess/vignettes/intro.html
>> for an example.
> Thank you, Stephen and Richard.
> I think we (the R Core Team) *can* make the description a bit
> more verbose. However, as practically all "--" descriptions
> are fitting in one short line, (and as the 'subprocess' package is just
an
> extension pkg, and may disappear (and more reasons)) I'd like to
> be less verbose than your proposal.
> What about
> -q, --quiet Don't print startup message
> --silent Same as --quiet
> --slave Make R run as quietly as possible. For use when
> runnning R as sub(ordinate) process.
> If you look more closely, you'll notice that --slave is not much
> quieter than --quiet, the only (?) difference being that the
> input is not copied and (only "mostly") the R prompt is also not printed.
> And from my experiments (in Linux (Fedora 30)), one might even
> notice that in some cases --slave prints the R prompt (to stderr?)
> which one might consider bogous (I'm not: not wanting to spend
> time fixing this platform-independently) :
> --slave :
>
> MM@lynne$ echo '(i <- 1:3)
> i*10' | R-3.6.1 --slave --vanilla
>> [1] 1 2 3
> [1] 10 20 30
> MM@lynne$ f=/tmp/Rslave.out$$; echo '(i <- 1:3)
> i*10' | R-3.6.1 --slave --vanilla | tee $f
>> [1] 1 2 3
> [1] 10 20 30
> MM@lynne$ cat $f
> [1] 1 2 3
> [1] 10 20 30
> --quiet :
>
> MM@lynne$ f=/tmp/Rquiet.out$$; echo '(i <- 1:3)
> i*10' | R-3.6.1 --quiet --vanilla | tee $f
>> (i <- 1:3)
> [1] 1 2 3
>> i*10
> [1] 10 20 30
>>
> MM@lynne$ cat $f
>> (i <- 1:3)
> [1] 1 2 3
>> i*10
> [1] 10 20 30
>>
> MM@lynne$
>
> But there's a bit more to it: In my examples above, both --quiet
> and --slave where used together with --vanilla. In general
> --slave *also* never saves, i.e., uses the equivalent of
> q('no'), where as --quiet does [ask or ...].
> Last but not least, from very simply reading R's source code on
> this, it becomes blatant that you can use '-s' instead of '--slave',
> but we (R Core) have probably not documented that on purpose (so
> we could reserve it for something more important, and redefine
> the simple use of '-s' some time in the future ?)
> So, all those who want to restrict their language could use '-s'
> for now. In addition, we could add >> one << other alias to
> --slave, say --subprocess (or --quieter ? or ???)
> and one could make that the preferred use some time in the future.
> Well, these were another two hours of time *not* spent improving
> R technically, but spent reading e-mails, source code, and considering.
> Maybe well spent, maybe not ...
> Martin Maechler
> ETH Zurich and R Core Team
With in the R Core Teamwe have considered the issue.
As a consequence, I have committed a few minutes ago code changes
that replace '--slave' by '--no-echo' .
[This will be in R-devel versions from svn rev 77229 and of
course in the "big step" release around April 2020].
Among other considerations, we found that '--no-echo' was
really much more self-explaining, as indeed the command line
option turns off the echo'ing of the R code that is executed,
and on the C level is indeed very much related to R level
options(echo = "no")
For back compatibility reasons, the old
Re: [R] The "--slave" option ==> will become "--no-echo"
Hi Martin,
'--no-echo'
or
'--no_echo'
Obviously you may prefer the first, but I hope you might consider the second.
Best Regards,
W. Michels, Ph.D.
On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 9:04 AM Martin Maechler
wrote:
>
> > Martin Maechler
> > on Mon, 23 Sep 2019 16:14:36 +0200 writes:
>
> > Richard O'Keefe
> > on Sat, 21 Sep 2019 09:39:18 +1200 writes:
>
> >> Ah, *now* we're getting somewhere. There is something
> >> that *can* be done that's genuinely helpful.
> >>> From the R(1) manual page:
> >> -q, --quiet Don't print startup message
>
> >> --silent Same as --quiet
>
> >> --slave Make R run as quietly as possible
>
> >> It might have been better to use --nobanner instead of
> >> --quiet. So perhaps
>
> >> -q, --quiet Don't print the startup message. This is
> >> the only output that is suppressed.
>
> >> --silent Same as --quiet. Suppress the startup
> >> message only.
>
> >> --slave Make R run as quietly as possible. This is
> >> for use when running R as a subordinate process. See
> >> "Introduction to Sub-Processes in R"
> >> https://cran.r-project.org/web/packages/subprocess/vignettes/intro.html
> >> for an example.
>
> > Thank you, Stephen and Richard.
>
> > I think we (the R Core Team) *can* make the description a bit
> > more verbose. However, as practically all "--" descriptions
> > are fitting in one short line, (and as the 'subprocess' package is just
> an
> > extension pkg, and may disappear (and more reasons)) I'd like to
> > be less verbose than your proposal.
>
> > What about
>
> > -q, --quiet Don't print startup message
>
> > --silent Same as --quiet
>
> > --slave Make R run as quietly as possible. For use when
> > runnning R as sub(ordinate) process.
>
> > If you look more closely, you'll notice that --slave is not much
> > quieter than --quiet, the only (?) difference being that the
> > input is not copied and (only "mostly") the R prompt is also not
> printed.
>
> > And from my experiments (in Linux (Fedora 30)), one might even
> > notice that in some cases --slave prints the R prompt (to stderr?)
> > which one might consider bogous (I'm not: not wanting to spend
> > time fixing this platform-independently) :
>
> > --slave :
> >
>
> > MM@lynne$ echo '(i <- 1:3)
> > i*10' | R-3.6.1 --slave --vanilla
> >> [1] 1 2 3
> > [1] 10 20 30
> > MM@lynne$ f=/tmp/Rslave.out$$; echo '(i <- 1:3)
> > i*10' | R-3.6.1 --slave --vanilla | tee $f
> >> [1] 1 2 3
> > [1] 10 20 30
> > MM@lynne$ cat $f
> > [1] 1 2 3
> > [1] 10 20 30
>
> > --quiet :
> >
>
> > MM@lynne$ f=/tmp/Rquiet.out$$; echo '(i <- 1:3)
> > i*10' | R-3.6.1 --quiet --vanilla | tee $f
> >> (i <- 1:3)
> > [1] 1 2 3
> >> i*10
> > [1] 10 20 30
> >>
> > MM@lynne$ cat $f
> >> (i <- 1:3)
> > [1] 1 2 3
> >> i*10
> > [1] 10 20 30
> >>
> > MM@lynne$
>
> >
>
> > But there's a bit more to it: In my examples above, both --quiet
> > and --slave where used together with --vanilla. In general
> > --slave *also* never saves, i.e., uses the equivalent of
> > q('no'), where as --quiet does [ask or ...].
>
> > Last but not least, from very simply reading R's source code on
> > this, it becomes blatant that you can use '-s' instead of '--slave',
> > but we (R Core) have probably not documented that on purpose (so
> > we could reserve it for something more important, and redefine
> > the simple use of '-s' some time in the future ?)
>
> > So, all those who want to restrict their language could use '-s'
> > for now. In addition, we could add >> one << other alias to
> > --slave, say --subprocess (or --quieter ? or ???)
> > and one could make that the preferred use some time in the future.
>
> > Well, these were another two hours of time *not* spent improving
> > R technically, but spent reading e-mails, source code, and considering.
> > Maybe well spent, maybe not ...
>
> > Martin Maechler
> > ETH Zurich and R Core Team
>
> With in the R Core Teamwe have considered the issue.
>
> As a consequence, I have committed a few minutes ago code changes
> that replace '--slave' by '--no-echo' .
> [This will be in R-devel versions from svn rev 77229 and of
> course in the "big step" release around April 2020].
>
> Among other considerations, we found that '--no-echo' was
> really much more self-explaining, as indeed the command line
> option turns off the echo'ing of the R code that is executed,
> and on the C level is indeed very much related to R level
>
> options(echo = "no")
>
> For back compatibility reasons, the old command line option will
> continue to work so the many shell and
Re: [R] The "--slave" option ==> will become "--no-echo"
On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 2:04 AM Martin Maechler wrote: > > For back compatibility reasons, the old command line option will > continue to work so the many shell and other scripts that use > it, will not stop working. > That's a relief. I was getting worried that we would become: The knights who cannot say BS. Jim __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] The "--slave" option ==> will become "--no-echo"
> Martin Maechler
> on Mon, 23 Sep 2019 16:14:36 +0200 writes:
> Richard O'Keefe
> on Sat, 21 Sep 2019 09:39:18 +1200 writes:
>> Ah, *now* we're getting somewhere. There is something
>> that *can* be done that's genuinely helpful.
>>> From the R(1) manual page:
>> -q, --quiet Don't print startup message
>> --silent Same as --quiet
>> --slave Make R run as quietly as possible
>> It might have been better to use --nobanner instead of
>> --quiet. So perhaps
>> -q, --quiet Don't print the startup message. This is
>> the only output that is suppressed.
>> --silent Same as --quiet. Suppress the startup
>> message only.
>> --slave Make R run as quietly as possible. This is
>> for use when running R as a subordinate process. See
>> "Introduction to Sub-Processes in R"
>> https://cran.r-project.org/web/packages/subprocess/vignettes/intro.html
>> for an example.
> Thank you, Stephen and Richard.
> I think we (the R Core Team) *can* make the description a bit
> more verbose. However, as practically all "--" descriptions
> are fitting in one short line, (and as the 'subprocess' package is just an
> extension pkg, and may disappear (and more reasons)) I'd like to
> be less verbose than your proposal.
> What about
> -q, --quiet Don't print startup message
> --silent Same as --quiet
> --slave Make R run as quietly as possible. For use when
> runnning R as sub(ordinate) process.
> If you look more closely, you'll notice that --slave is not much
> quieter than --quiet, the only (?) difference being that the
> input is not copied and (only "mostly") the R prompt is also not printed.
> And from my experiments (in Linux (Fedora 30)), one might even
> notice that in some cases --slave prints the R prompt (to stderr?)
> which one might consider bogous (I'm not: not wanting to spend
> time fixing this platform-independently) :
> --slave :
>
> MM@lynne$ echo '(i <- 1:3)
> i*10' | R-3.6.1 --slave --vanilla
>> [1] 1 2 3
> [1] 10 20 30
> MM@lynne$ f=/tmp/Rslave.out$$; echo '(i <- 1:3)
> i*10' | R-3.6.1 --slave --vanilla | tee $f
>> [1] 1 2 3
> [1] 10 20 30
> MM@lynne$ cat $f
> [1] 1 2 3
> [1] 10 20 30
> --quiet :
>
> MM@lynne$ f=/tmp/Rquiet.out$$; echo '(i <- 1:3)
> i*10' | R-3.6.1 --quiet --vanilla | tee $f
>> (i <- 1:3)
> [1] 1 2 3
>> i*10
> [1] 10 20 30
>>
> MM@lynne$ cat $f
>> (i <- 1:3)
> [1] 1 2 3
>> i*10
> [1] 10 20 30
>>
> MM@lynne$
>
> But there's a bit more to it: In my examples above, both --quiet
> and --slave where used together with --vanilla. In general
> --slave *also* never saves, i.e., uses the equivalent of
> q('no'), where as --quiet does [ask or ...].
> Last but not least, from very simply reading R's source code on
> this, it becomes blatant that you can use '-s' instead of '--slave',
> but we (R Core) have probably not documented that on purpose (so
> we could reserve it for something more important, and redefine
> the simple use of '-s' some time in the future ?)
> So, all those who want to restrict their language could use '-s'
> for now. In addition, we could add >> one << other alias to
> --slave, say --subprocess (or --quieter ? or ???)
> and one could make that the preferred use some time in the future.
> Well, these were another two hours of time *not* spent improving
> R technically, but spent reading e-mails, source code, and considering.
> Maybe well spent, maybe not ...
> Martin Maechler
> ETH Zurich and R Core Team
With in the R Core Teamwe have considered the issue.
As a consequence, I have committed a few minutes ago code changes
that replace '--slave' by '--no-echo' .
[This will be in R-devel versions from svn rev 77229 and of
course in the "big step" release around April 2020].
Among other considerations, we found that '--no-echo' was
really much more self-explaining, as indeed the command line
option turns off the echo'ing of the R code that is executed,
and on the C level is indeed very much related to R level
options(echo = "no")
For back compatibility reasons, the old command line option will
continue to work so the many shell and other scripts that use
it, will not stop working.
Best regards,
Martin Maechler
ETH Zurich and R Core Team
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] The "--slave" option
> Richard O'Keefe
> on Sat, 21 Sep 2019 09:39:18 +1200 writes:
> Ah, *now* we're getting somewhere. There is something
> that *can* be done that's genuinely helpful.
>> From the R(1) manual page:
>-q, --quiet Don't print startup message
>--silent Same as --quiet
>--slave Make R run as quietly as possible
> It might have been better to use --nobanner instead of
> --quiet. So perhaps
> -q, --quiet Don't print the startup message. This is
> the only output that is suppressed.
> --silent Same as --quiet. Suppress the startup
> message only.
> --slave Make R run as quietly as possible. This is
> for use when running R as a subordinate process. See
> "Introduction to Sub-Processes in R"
> https://cran.r-project.org/web/packages/subprocess/vignettes/intro.html
> for an example.
Thank you, Stephen and Richard.
I think we (the R Core Team) *can* make the description a bit
more verbose. However, as practically all "--" descriptions
are fitting in one short line, (and as the 'subprocess' package is just an
extension pkg, and may disappear (and more reasons)) I'd like to
be less verbose than your proposal.
What about
-q, --quiet Don't print startup message
--silent Same as --quiet
--slave Make R run as quietly as possible. For use when
runnning R as sub(ordinate) process.
If you look more closely, you'll notice that --slave is not much
quieter than --quiet, the only (?) difference being that the
input is not copied and (only "mostly") the R prompt is also not printed.
And from my experiments (in Linux (Fedora 30)), one might even
notice that in some cases --slave prints the R prompt (to stderr?)
which one might consider bogous (I'm not: not wanting to spend
time fixing this platform-independently) :
--slave :
MM@lynne$ echo '(i <- 1:3)
i*10' | R-3.6.1 --slave --vanilla
> [1] 1 2 3
[1] 10 20 30
MM@lynne$ f=/tmp/Rslave.out$$; echo '(i <- 1:3)
i*10' | R-3.6.1 --slave --vanilla | tee $f
> [1] 1 2 3
[1] 10 20 30
MM@lynne$ cat $f
[1] 1 2 3
[1] 10 20 30
--quiet :
MM@lynne$ f=/tmp/Rquiet.out$$; echo '(i <- 1:3)
i*10' | R-3.6.1 --quiet --vanilla | tee $f
> (i <- 1:3)
[1] 1 2 3
> i*10
[1] 10 20 30
>
MM@lynne$ cat $f
> (i <- 1:3)
[1] 1 2 3
> i*10
[1] 10 20 30
>
MM@lynne$
But there's a bit more to it: In my examples above, both --quiet
and --slave where used together with --vanilla. In general
--slave *also* never saves, i.e., uses the equivalent of
q('no'), where as --quiet does [ask or ...].
Last but not least, from very simply reading R's source code on
this, it becomes blatant that you can use '-s' instead of '--slave',
but we (R Core) have probably not documented that on purpose (so
we could reserve it for something more important, and redefine
the simple use of '-s' some time in the future ?)
So, all those who want to restrict their language could use '-s'
for now. In addition, we could add >> one << other alias to
--slave, say --subprocess (or --quieter ? or ???)
and one could make that the preferred use some time in the future.
Well, these were another two hours of time *not* spent improving
R technically, but spent reading e-mails, source code, and considering.
Maybe well spent, maybe not ...
Martin Maechler
ETH Zurich and R Core Team
> On Sat, 21 Sep 2019 at 02:29, Stephen Ellison
> wrote:
>>
>> > Sure, it's a silly example, but it makes about as much
>> sense as using > "slave" to mean "quiet". It
>> doesn't. It's a set of options chosen for when R is
>> called as a slave process from a controlling process, and
>> in that it is a reasonable description of the
>> circumstance.
>>
>> --quiet is a separate command line option with different
>> effect.
>>
>>
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] The "--slave" option
On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 03:14:44PM +1200, Richard O'Keefe wrote: > The one thing "slave" does not mean in technology is any kind of human > being. At risk of repeating what someone else said, we are most likely not dealing with a human but with a "supernatural being, often represented as of diminutive size, but sometimes as a giant, and fabled to inhabit caves, hills, and like places", as from exhibit A On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 08:00:00AM +0200, Benjamin Lang wrote: > Let me reiterate that it is 2019, i.e. "The Future", rather than 1970 when > R was presumably developed, based on its atrocious syntax, documentation > and usability (I think I only need to say "NaN", "NULL", and "NA"). I suggest not to fatten such a magical creature! __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
[R] The "--slave" option
> How, in late 2019, is there an option called "--slave" to "make R run as quietly as possible"? The word "slave" is fine for computer science because a) none tries to make a real person slave and b) historical reasons and backwards compability. You may be against b), but this is your problem. What is wrong here, is that some minor group striking for political correctness tries to impose its behavior in technical field. It's a shame that sometimes such group wins (for example, as in the Python case). Best regards, Maxim Fomin __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] The "--slave" option
On Wed, 18-Sep-2019 at 02:58PM -0700, Jeff Newmiller wrote:
|> I think there is no confusion except in the minds of those with
|> nothing better to do. I agree with Antirez, quoted in [1], which
|> nevertheless indicates that perspective lost the debate.
I agree with Jeff. Automotive hydraulics have used terms such as
'master-cylinders' and 'slave-cylinders' without such an issue for a
century or more.
If we have nothing else to do, we might want to purge ESS of its
so-called 'inferior processes', but it ain't me, Babe.
BTW: I've used R for 20+ years and never used a --slave option.
Should I get an award?
|> Any accurate alternative notation will have similar connotations
|> because in fact the "slave" side of that relationship is completely
|> subordinate to the "master" side... there is no escaping that
|> fact. It requires a very different and more complicated
|> architecture to achieve a "peer" relationship, which often is not
|> worth the effort or even appropriate.
|> So while Dr Lang may be mollified by a change in notation, someone
|> else is going to find the new words offensive and make the same PC
|> argument since the implications of the architecture have not
|> changed. In fact there should never have been a parallel drawn
|> between the morality of human slavery and computing architectures
|> to begin with.
|> [1]
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8x7akv/masterslave-terminology-was-removed-from-python-programming-language
|>
|> On September 18, 2019 11:57:32 AM PDT, "Patrick (Malone Quantitative)"
wrote:
|> >For what it's worth, this is an ongoing conversation in computer
|> >science and engineering. And has been so for decades.
|> >
|> >Not R, but related to this it's only in the past few months that a
|> >fork of the photo-manipulation software GIMP (slur for handicapped)
|> >renames it (GLIMPSE).
|> >
|> >Note, I am not saying this isn't a battle worth fighting.
|> >
|> >On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:52 PM Benjamin Lang
|> >wrote:
|> >>
|> >> Dear R project,
|> >>
|> >> I have a very simple question:
|> >>
|> >> How, in late 2019, is there an option called "--slave" to "make R run
|> >as
|> >> quietly as possible"?
|> >>
|> >> Let me reiterate that it is 2019, i.e. "The Future", rather than 1970
|> >when
|> >> R was presumably developed, based on its atrocious syntax,
|> >documentation
|> >> and usability (I think I only need to say "NaN", "NULL", and "NA").
|> >>
|> >> This is a disgrace and it should have been addressed one or two
|> >decades
|> >> ago. Why not just "--quiet"?
|> >>
|> >> Please do not mention "backwards compatibility". For the historically
|> >> inclined, it does not make much of a difference whether the term
|> >evokes the
|> >> Roman, Greek, American or modern kind of slavery for you: it is as
|> >> disgusting as it gets.
|> >>
|> >> Thank you,
|> >> Ben
|> >>
|> >> --
|> >> Benjamin Lang, PhD
|> >> http://orcid.org/-0001-6358-8380
|> >>
|> >> Marie Sklodowska-Curie Postdoctoral Fellow (MSCA-IF)
|> >> Gene Function and Evolution (Dr. Gian Tartaglia)
|> >> Centre for Genomic Regulation (CRG), Barcelona, Spain
|> >>
|> >> [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
|> >>
|> >> __
|> >> R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
|> >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
|> >> PLEASE do read the posting guide
|> >http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
|> >> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
|> >
|> >__
|> >R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
|> >https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
|> >PLEASE do read the posting guide
|> >http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
|> >and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
|>
|> --
|> Sent from my phone. Please excuse my brevity.
|>
|> __
|> R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
|> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
|> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
|> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
--
~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.
___Patrick Connolly
{~._.~} Great minds discuss ideas
_( Y )_ Average minds discuss events
(:_~*~_:) Small minds discuss people
(_)-(_) . Eleanor Roosevelt
~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.
__
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https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] The "--slave" option
One of my grandfathers was from Croatia. Guess what the word "slave" is derived from? That's right, Slavs. This goes back to the 9th century. And then of course my grandfather's people were enslaved by the Ottoman empire, which was only defeated a little over a hundred years ago. My other grandfather was from the British isles, where to this day followers of the same prophet are enslaving people like me (except for being female). So I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed. How many computers are "servers"? There's that whole client-server thing. Guess what "server" comes from? That's right, the Latin word "servus", which means guess what? You got it again: "slave". Are we to abolish the word "server"? What about the word "client"? Ah, that's part of the client-patron system from Rome, so what about the patriarchy, eh? We are dealing with something called "the genetic fallacy". "The genetic *fallacy* (also known as the *fallacy of origins* ...) is a *fallacy* of irrelevance that is based solely on someone's or something's history, *origin*, or source rather than its current meaning or context." (Wikipedia.) Context matters. On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 17:10, Abby Spurdle wrote: > > Personally I much prefer backwards compatibility to political > correctness. > > I agree with Rolf, here. > And as someone that's planning to write a Linux Terminal Emulator, in > the medium-term future, I *strongly* defend this approach. > > And to the original poster. > Haven't you seen The Matrix? > (Second best movie ever, after the Shawshank Redemption). > > I would prefer the technology to be my slave, than I be a > prisoner/slave to the technology. > > __ > R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. > [[alternative HTML version deleted]] __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] The "--slave" option
> Personally I much prefer backwards compatibility to political correctness. I agree with Rolf, here. And as someone that's planning to write a Linux Terminal Emulator, in the medium-term future, I *strongly* defend this approach. And to the original poster. Haven't you seen The Matrix? (Second best movie ever, after the Shawshank Redemption). I would prefer the technology to be my slave, than I be a prisoner/slave to the technology. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] The "--slave" option
On 18/09/19 6:00 PM, Benjamin Lang wrote: Dear R project, I have a very simple question: How, in late 2019, is there an option called "--slave" to "make R run as quietly as possible"? Let me reiterate that it is 2019, i.e. "The Future", rather than 1970 when R was presumably developed, based on its atrocious syntax, documentation and usability (I think I only need to say "NaN", "NULL", and "NA"). This is a disgrace and it should have been addressed one or two decades ago. Why not just "--quiet"? Please do not mention "backwards compatibility". Personally I much prefer backwards compatibility to political correctness. For the historically inclined, it does not make much of a difference whether the term evokes the Roman, Greek, American or modern kind of slavery for you: it is as disgusting as it gets. IMHO this is a precious PC quibble, taking offence where no offence is intended. If you are really concerned about literal slavery --- as everyone should be --- then join/contribute to an appropriate activist organisation (e.g. Amnesty International, which is my personal choice). cheers, Rolf Turner -- Honorary Research Fellow Department of Statistics University of Auckland Phone: +64-9-373-7599 ext. 88276 __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] The "--slave" option
I think there is no confusion except in the minds of those with nothing better to do. I agree with Antirez, quoted in [1], which nevertheless indicates that perspective lost the debate. Any accurate alternative notation will have similar connotations because in fact the "slave" side of that relationship is completely subordinate to the "master" side... there is no escaping that fact. It requires a very different and more complicated architecture to achieve a "peer" relationship, which often is not worth the effort or even appropriate. So while Dr Lang may be mollified by a change in notation, someone else is going to find the new words offensive and make the same PC argument since the implications of the architecture have not changed. In fact there should never have been a parallel drawn between the morality of human slavery and computing architectures to begin with. [1] https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8x7akv/masterslave-terminology-was-removed-from-python-programming-language On September 18, 2019 11:57:32 AM PDT, "Patrick (Malone Quantitative)" wrote: >For what it's worth, this is an ongoing conversation in computer >science and engineering. And has been so for decades. > >Not R, but related to this it's only in the past few months that a >fork of the photo-manipulation software GIMP (slur for handicapped) >renames it (GLIMPSE). > >Note, I am not saying this isn't a battle worth fighting. > >On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:52 PM Benjamin Lang >wrote: >> >> Dear R project, >> >> I have a very simple question: >> >> How, in late 2019, is there an option called "--slave" to "make R run >as >> quietly as possible"? >> >> Let me reiterate that it is 2019, i.e. "The Future", rather than 1970 >when >> R was presumably developed, based on its atrocious syntax, >documentation >> and usability (I think I only need to say "NaN", "NULL", and "NA"). >> >> This is a disgrace and it should have been addressed one or two >decades >> ago. Why not just "--quiet"? >> >> Please do not mention "backwards compatibility". For the historically >> inclined, it does not make much of a difference whether the term >evokes the >> Roman, Greek, American or modern kind of slavery for you: it is as >> disgusting as it gets. >> >> Thank you, >> Ben >> >> -- >> Benjamin Lang, PhD >> http://orcid.org/-0001-6358-8380 >> >> Marie Sklodowska-Curie Postdoctoral Fellow (MSCA-IF) >> Gene Function and Evolution (Dr. Gian Tartaglia) >> Centre for Genomic Regulation (CRG), Barcelona, Spain >> >> [[alternative HTML version deleted]] >> >> __ >> R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >> PLEASE do read the posting guide >http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html >> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. > >__ >R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see >https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >PLEASE do read the posting guide >http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html >and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Sent from my phone. Please excuse my brevity. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] The "--slave" option
For what it's worth, this is an ongoing conversation in computer science and engineering. And has been so for decades. Not R, but related to this it's only in the past few months that a fork of the photo-manipulation software GIMP (slur for handicapped) renames it (GLIMPSE). Note, I am not saying this isn't a battle worth fighting. On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:52 PM Benjamin Lang wrote: > > Dear R project, > > I have a very simple question: > > How, in late 2019, is there an option called "--slave" to "make R run as > quietly as possible"? > > Let me reiterate that it is 2019, i.e. "The Future", rather than 1970 when > R was presumably developed, based on its atrocious syntax, documentation > and usability (I think I only need to say "NaN", "NULL", and "NA"). > > This is a disgrace and it should have been addressed one or two decades > ago. Why not just "--quiet"? > > Please do not mention "backwards compatibility". For the historically > inclined, it does not make much of a difference whether the term evokes the > Roman, Greek, American or modern kind of slavery for you: it is as > disgusting as it gets. > > Thank you, > Ben > > -- > Benjamin Lang, PhD > http://orcid.org/-0001-6358-8380 > > Marie Sklodowska-Curie Postdoctoral Fellow (MSCA-IF) > Gene Function and Evolution (Dr. Gian Tartaglia) > Centre for Genomic Regulation (CRG), Barcelona, Spain > > [[alternative HTML version deleted]] > > __ > R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
[R] The "--slave" option
Dear R project, I have a very simple question: How, in late 2019, is there an option called "--slave" to "make R run as quietly as possible"? Let me reiterate that it is 2019, i.e. "The Future", rather than 1970 when R was presumably developed, based on its atrocious syntax, documentation and usability (I think I only need to say "NaN", "NULL", and "NA"). This is a disgrace and it should have been addressed one or two decades ago. Why not just "--quiet"? Please do not mention "backwards compatibility". For the historically inclined, it does not make much of a difference whether the term evokes the Roman, Greek, American or modern kind of slavery for you: it is as disgusting as it gets. Thank you, Ben -- Benjamin Lang, PhD http://orcid.org/-0001-6358-8380 Marie Sklodowska-Curie Postdoctoral Fellow (MSCA-IF) Gene Function and Evolution (Dr. Gian Tartaglia) Centre for Genomic Regulation (CRG), Barcelona, Spain [[alternative HTML version deleted]] __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
