Re: [R] Proposal for New R List: Criticism? Comments?
It seems to me that \concept{} is simply another code for My keyword is
your search term. I do not consider myself to be one of the better
informed users of R, yet the frequency with which I resort to a full text
search is less than once a month. For such an infrequent task, I find it no
problem to fire off a full text search of the help files and occupy myself
otherwise for a minute or two.
Jim
__
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
RE: [R] Proposal for New R List: Criticism? Comments?
Hi John et al.
I'm coming late to this thread (because of vacation),
JohnF == John Fox [EMAIL PROTECTED]
on Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:56:51 -0400 writes:
JohnF Dear Brian et al.,
JohnF Jonathan's search site is excellent -- I use it
JohnF frequently -- and for some reason new users seem
JohnF unaware of help.search(), which, despite the fact
JohnF that it searches only in installed packages, I also
JohnF find very useful.
yes and yes.
JohnF A couple of comments, however: First, if help pages
JohnF from all packages were available at a central
JohnF location -- e.g., at CRAN -- help.search() could have
JohnF an option to search that location. Second, I still
JohnF feel that it would be useful to provide some other
JohnF way of searching the space of all available
JohnF functions. One idea, which I mentioned in an earlier
JohnF message on this thread, would be a keyword system
JohnF (again, different from the current set of standard
JohnF keywords).
\concept{} was introduced for this
JohnF The keywords could be accessed by help.search()
and this happens (by default) for \concept{} entries
JohnF and also compiled into an index.
this doesn't happen yet.
The ``real problem'' of course is that package authors need to
write all these \concept{} entries before such an index can
really become useful.
Martin Maechler
-Original Message-
From: Prof Brian Ripley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 5:26 AM
To: Jonathan Baron
Cc: Adaikalavan Ramasamy; John Fox; R-help; 'Berton Gunter'
Subject: Re: [R] Proposal for New R List: Criticism? Comments?
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Jonathan Baron wrote:
On 09/10/04 03:54, Adaikalavan Ramasamy wrote:
There is another issue to be considered. Currently you
need to have
the relevant packages installed before help.search() bring
it up. My
work around this is to install all available packages just in case
the function I need is nestled in some non-standard
packages. I also
update them rather frequently.
I do this too, at my search site (where
frequently=monthly) and you
can search functions only, and use Boolean search expressions and
phrases.
But right now the entire set of packages takes about 885
meg (if I'm
reading du correctly), which is less than my very modest
collection of
digital photos, and a tiny fraction of a 3-year-old standard hard
disk. In other words, it is no big deal to install all the
packages
if you have your own computer.
I am seeing about 520Mb for all base + CRAN packages under
1.9.1, and it will be rather less under 2.0.0 as more parts
are stored compressed.
BioC is a lot larger.
It is however, a BIG deal to install *all* the packages and
am I currently 10 short since they depend on other software
that I do not have a licence for or will not compile (and
there are three others I cannot reinstall using current gcc).
On AMD64 and Solaris there are several others, and something
like 20 do not install on Windows. (I could use
--install-fake as the CRAN checks do, but I have the almost
complete set installed to test R changes, not test packages.)
So I do see some merit in having a full-text search for R
help available at some URL, as Jonathan has kindly provided.
--
Brian D. Ripley, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Professor of Applied Statistics, http://www.stats.ox.ac.uk/~ripley/
University of Oxford, Tel: +44 1865 272861 (self)
1 South Parks Road, +44 1865 272866 (PA)
Oxford OX1 3TG, UKFax: +44 1865 272595
__
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
RE: [R] Proposal for New R List: Criticism? Comments?
Dear Martin,
Thanks for pointing this out -- I'm ashamed to say that I forgot about
\concept{} entries. As you say (aside from people stupidly forgetting that
they exist), the problem is to get people to use them. How about requiring
one or more concept entries for each help file?
Regards,
John
-Original Message-
From: Martin Maechler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 7:57 AM
To: John Fox
Cc: 'R-help'
Subject: RE: [R] Proposal for New R List: Criticism? Comments?
Hi John et al.
I'm coming late to this thread (because of vacation),
JohnF == John Fox [EMAIL PROTECTED]
on Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:56:51 -0400 writes:
JohnF Dear Brian et al.,
JohnF Jonathan's search site is excellent -- I use it
JohnF frequently -- and for some reason new users seem
JohnF unaware of help.search(), which, despite the fact
JohnF that it searches only in installed packages, I also
JohnF find very useful.
yes and yes.
JohnF A couple of comments, however: First, if help pages
JohnF from all packages were available at a central
JohnF location -- e.g., at CRAN -- help.search() could have
JohnF an option to search that location. Second, I still
JohnF feel that it would be useful to provide some other
JohnF way of searching the space of all available
JohnF functions. One idea, which I mentioned in an earlier
JohnF message on this thread, would be a keyword system
JohnF (again, different from the current set of standard
JohnF keywords).
\concept{} was introduced for this
JohnF The keywords could be accessed by help.search()
and this happens (by default) for \concept{} entries
JohnF and also compiled into an index.
this doesn't happen yet.
The ``real problem'' of course is that package authors need
to write all these \concept{} entries before such an index
can really become useful.
Martin Maechler
-Original Message-
From: Prof Brian Ripley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 5:26 AM
To: Jonathan Baron
Cc: Adaikalavan Ramasamy; John Fox; R-help; 'Berton Gunter'
Subject: Re: [R] Proposal for New R List: Criticism? Comments?
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Jonathan Baron wrote:
On 09/10/04 03:54, Adaikalavan Ramasamy wrote:
There is another issue to be considered. Currently you
need to have
the relevant packages installed before help.search() bring
it up. My
work around this is to install all available
packages just in case
the function I need is nestled in some non-standard
packages. I also
update them rather frequently.
I do this too, at my search site (where
frequently=monthly) and you
can search functions only, and use Boolean search
expressions and
phrases.
But right now the entire set of packages takes about 885
meg (if I'm
reading du correctly), which is less than my very modest
collection of
digital photos, and a tiny fraction of a 3-year-old
standard hard
disk. In other words, it is no big deal to install all the
packages
if you have your own computer.
I am seeing about 520Mb for all base + CRAN packages under
1.9.1, and it will be rather less under 2.0.0 as more parts
are stored compressed.
BioC is a lot larger.
It is however, a BIG deal to install *all* the packages and
am I currently 10 short since they depend on other software
that I do not have a licence for or will not compile (and
there are three others I cannot reinstall using current gcc).
On AMD64 and Solaris there are several others, and something
like 20 do not install on Windows. (I could use
--install-fake as the CRAN checks do, but I have the almost
complete set installed to test R changes, not test packages.)
So I do see some merit in having a full-text search for R
help available at some URL, as Jonathan has kindly provided.
--
Brian D. Ripley, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Professor of Applied Statistics,
http://www.stats.ox.ac.uk/~ripley/
University of Oxford, Tel: +44 1865 272861 (self)
1 South Parks Road, +44 1865 272866 (PA)
Oxford OX1 3TG, UKFax: +44 1865 272595
__
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Proposal for New R List: Criticism? Comments?
On 09/10/04 03:54, Adaikalavan Ramasamy wrote: There is another issue to be considered. Currently you need to have the relevant packages installed before help.search() bring it up. My work around this is to install all available packages just in case the function I need is nestled in some non-standard packages. I also update them rather frequently. I do this too, at my search site (where frequently=monthly) and you can search functions only, and use Boolean search expressions and phrases. But right now the entire set of packages takes about 885 meg (if I'm reading du correctly), which is less than my very modest collection of digital photos, and a tiny fraction of a 3-year-old standard hard disk. In other words, it is no big deal to install all the packages if you have your own computer. Jon -- Jonathan Baron, Professor of Psychology, University of Pennsylvania Home page: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~baron R search page: http://finzi.psych.upenn.edu/ __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Proposal for New R List: Criticism? Comments?
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Jonathan Baron wrote: On 09/10/04 03:54, Adaikalavan Ramasamy wrote: There is another issue to be considered. Currently you need to have the relevant packages installed before help.search() bring it up. My work around this is to install all available packages just in case the function I need is nestled in some non-standard packages. I also update them rather frequently. I do this too, at my search site (where frequently=monthly) and you can search functions only, and use Boolean search expressions and phrases. But right now the entire set of packages takes about 885 meg (if I'm reading du correctly), which is less than my very modest collection of digital photos, and a tiny fraction of a 3-year-old standard hard disk. In other words, it is no big deal to install all the packages if you have your own computer. I am seeing about 520Mb for all base + CRAN packages under 1.9.1, and it will be rather less under 2.0.0 as more parts are stored compressed. BioC is a lot larger. It is however, a BIG deal to install *all* the packages and am I currently 10 short since they depend on other software that I do not have a licence for or will not compile (and there are three others I cannot reinstall using current gcc). On AMD64 and Solaris there are several others, and something like 20 do not install on Windows. (I could use --install-fake as the CRAN checks do, but I have the almost complete set installed to test R changes, not test packages.) So I do see some merit in having a full-text search for R help available at some URL, as Jonathan has kindly provided. -- Brian D. Ripley, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Professor of Applied Statistics, http://www.stats.ox.ac.uk/~ripley/ University of Oxford, Tel: +44 1865 272861 (self) 1 South Parks Road, +44 1865 272866 (PA) Oxford OX1 3TG, UKFax: +44 1865 272595 __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
RE: [R] Proposal for New R List: Criticism? Comments?
Dear Brian et al., Jonathan's search site is excellent -- I use it frequently -- and for some reason new users seem unaware of help.search(), which, despite the fact that it searches only in installed packages, I also find very useful. A couple of comments, however: First, if help pages from all packages were available at a central location -- e.g., at CRAN -- help.search() could have an option to search that location. Second, I still feel that it would be useful to provide some other way of searching the space of all available functions. One idea, which I mentioned in an earlier message on this thread, would be a keyword system (again, different from the current set of standard keywords). The keywords could be accessed by help.search() and also compiled into an index. Regards, John -Original Message- From: Prof Brian Ripley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 5:26 AM To: Jonathan Baron Cc: Adaikalavan Ramasamy; John Fox; R-help; 'Berton Gunter' Subject: Re: [R] Proposal for New R List: Criticism? Comments? On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Jonathan Baron wrote: On 09/10/04 03:54, Adaikalavan Ramasamy wrote: There is another issue to be considered. Currently you need to have the relevant packages installed before help.search() bring it up. My work around this is to install all available packages just in case the function I need is nestled in some non-standard packages. I also update them rather frequently. I do this too, at my search site (where frequently=monthly) and you can search functions only, and use Boolean search expressions and phrases. But right now the entire set of packages takes about 885 meg (if I'm reading du correctly), which is less than my very modest collection of digital photos, and a tiny fraction of a 3-year-old standard hard disk. In other words, it is no big deal to install all the packages if you have your own computer. I am seeing about 520Mb for all base + CRAN packages under 1.9.1, and it will be rather less under 2.0.0 as more parts are stored compressed. BioC is a lot larger. It is however, a BIG deal to install *all* the packages and am I currently 10 short since they depend on other software that I do not have a licence for or will not compile (and there are three others I cannot reinstall using current gcc). On AMD64 and Solaris there are several others, and something like 20 do not install on Windows. (I could use --install-fake as the CRAN checks do, but I have the almost complete set installed to test R changes, not test packages.) So I do see some merit in having a full-text search for R help available at some URL, as Jonathan has kindly provided. -- Brian D. Ripley, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Professor of Applied Statistics, http://www.stats.ox.ac.uk/~ripley/ University of Oxford, Tel: +44 1865 272861 (self) 1 South Parks Road, +44 1865 272866 (PA) Oxford OX1 3TG, UKFax: +44 1865 272595 __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Proposal for New R List: Criticism? Comments?
Just finished updating and installing new packages from CRAN and BioConductor (including annotation data) and am happy to say that my R has just exceeded the 1 GB mark. On Fri, 2004-09-10 at 10:11, Jonathan Baron wrote: On 09/10/04 03:54, Adaikalavan Ramasamy wrote: There is another issue to be considered. Currently you need to have the relevant packages installed before help.search() bring it up. My work around this is to install all available packages just in case the function I need is nestled in some non-standard packages. I also update them rather frequently. I do this too, at my search site (where frequently=monthly) and you can search functions only, and use Boolean search expressions and phrases. But right now the entire set of packages takes about 885 meg (if I'm reading du correctly), which is less than my very modest collection of digital photos, and a tiny fraction of a 3-year-old standard hard disk. In other words, it is no big deal to install all the packages if you have your own computer. Jon __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Proposal for New R List: Criticism? Comments?
I think that a lot of posts on r-help are exactly of the form you suggest: How do I do X? Answer: Use Y. (Or maybe, Use Y. And next time RTFM. But so what. The answer is still there.) Often, when the answer is not of that form, the question is unclear. In other cases, the questioner is apparently asking for general statistical advice, rather than which package to use. In sum, I don't think the new list is needed. I do not want to archive it. I think that, if a questioner fails to find an answer because the terms he would use do not happen to be indexed in help.search(), etc., then he has the option of using my search engine as a fallback, where it is likely that someone else has used his favored terms. Jon -- Jonathan Baron, Professor of Psychology, University of Pennsylvania Home page: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~baron R search page: http://finzi.psych.upenn.edu/ __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
RE: [R] Proposal for New R List: Criticism? Comments?
Dear Bert, I believe that you've identified an important issue -- and one that's occasionally been discussed on this list previously -- but I'm not sure that another email list is a good solution. Some method of indexing functions in packages that would allow people to more easily locate them (e.g., author-supplied [i.e., not simply standard] keywords for each public object in a package) seems to me a more promising approach. Regards, John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Berton Gunter Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 11:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [R] Proposal for New R List: Criticism? Comments? Folks: I would like to propose a new R list, tentatively labeled r-contents. I wish to briefly explain the purpose and format here and solicit public comments, pro or con, so feel free to criticize or suggest a better name and other improvements or alternatives. R presently consists of a suite of about a dozen core recommended packages and several hundred contributed packages comprising thousands -- perhaps tens of thousands -- of functions. Hopefully, this will continue to grow rapidly. No one can possibly keep track of all of this, and it is therefore a daunting task for someone seeking specific functionality to find it, especially when they are relatively new to R. Of course, R and CRAN (and Google and ...) have various search capabilities that help, but these are essentially keyword-based and so require the searcher to guess search terms that are at least reasonably close to function names and keywords. A lot of the time this works, but it can be tedious; some of the time one guesses wrong, and it doesn't work. S-Plus and much other software addresses this by providing a semantically-based Contents Index (or something like it) in their Help functionality. I find this quite useful, but creating and maintaining such an index seems to me to be extremely labor intensive, fraught with its own issues (what heading should I look under?), and, I think, not a good fit to the spirit and dynamics of R anyway. Not surprisingly, as a result, many of the questions addressed to r-help are of the form: I want to do such and such. How do I do it? While this certainly gives answers, I think the breadth of r-help and its etiquette and posting conventions result in an abruptness to many of our replies (Read the posting guide! Read the Help files and do what they say!) that discourages many users -- especially casual ones -- from posting questions, and thus may thus discourage use of R. Clearly, if true, this is not a good thing; on the other hand, I think that given r-help's purpose and practices, many of these abrupt replies may well be appropriate (I'm a curmudgeon at heart!). Hence, there is a mismatch between user needs and r-help services. To address this mismatch, I would like to propose a new list, r-contents, to essentially serve the same purpose as the S-Plus Contents index. Hence, it would serve as a place for users to post queries ** only ** of the form: I want to do such and such. How do I do it? and receive answers that would all be **single phrases ** of the form package suchandsuch or ?suchandsuchfunction. No further explanations regarding usage would be provided, though users would be free to follow up answers with private questions to the responder, although there should be no expectation of any response. Queries could be framed with as much or as little supporting detail as desired, with the obvious consequence that a more clearly framed question would be more likely to get a (better) response. No other posting conventions (aside from the usual ones regarding civility and adherence to topic) would be expected. My hope is that such a list would both reduce unnecessary traffic on r-help and satisfy a genuine need in a less threatening way. I can certainly see downsides (I often learn a lot from How can I do this? queries), but I think, on balance, this approach might be useful. So I would like to subject the idea to public scrutiny and criticism, as well as the opportunity for improvement from suggested modifications or alternatives. If it's useful, this will be recognized; if it's not and/or no one is interested, that, too, will be made manifest. I would be especially grateful for the opinions of casual users or newbies, either publicly or privately. Cheers, -- Bert Gunter Genentech Non-Clinical Statistics South San Francisco, CA __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
