Re: [R] [EXT] Re: Inappropriate color name
Could we please stop this thread here? Please take any further discussions off-list, or we would need an R-chat list for these kind of discussions (I would subscribe, though). Cheers, Rainer > On 20 Nov 2020, at 11:28, Charles Novaes de Santana > wrote: > > The fact that for the first time we have so many messages in this group is > proof that the question asked by Lainey is appropriate and necessary. > > No language is static, they evolve thanks to discussions like this. > Remember that github stopped using the term "master" to describe the main > branch of a repository for example. > > I wonder what would happen if there was a color named "redneck" instead of > "indianred". > > Charles > > On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 at 10:37, Marc Roos wrote: > >> >>> name since it conveys the wrong indication of its purpose. But the >>> word 'racist' in itself is not offensive. The act of being racist is >>> offensive and wrong. Purging the word 'racist' won't help rid the >>> world of racism. >> >> Indeed, if you would go down this road, where does it stop? You would be >> eligible getting discussions why the female species is described with a >> longer word than the male. Why is there even a 'man' part in 'woman'. I >> can bet there are man and woman finding this offensive ;) >> What do you think about these symbols for male and female? Should be >> changed also, this male is now pointing up to heaven = good, and female >> pointing down to hell = bad? ;) >> >> >> >> __ >> R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >> PLEASE do read the posting guide >> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html >> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. >> > > > -- > Um axé! :) > > -- > Charles Novaes de Santana, PhD > https://github.com/cndesantana > > [[alternative HTML version deleted]] > > __ > R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany) Orcid ID: -0002-7490-0066 Department of Evolutionary Biology and Environmental Studies University of Zürich Office Y34-J-74 Winterthurerstrasse 190 8075 Zürich Switzerland Office: +41 (0)44 635 47 64 Cell: +41 (0)78 630 66 57 email: rainer.k...@uzh.ch rai...@krugs.de Skype: RMkrug PGP: 0x0F52F982 [[alternative HTML version deleted]] __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] [EXT] Re: Inappropriate color name
> Remember that github stopped using the term "master" to describe the main branch of a repository for example. Github is some sort of national language institute, with a board of literary, sociology, psychology professors? Afaik is github owned by Microsoft, and Microsoft is known to be an offender of peoples rights. Who the @#$@#$ cares what they do? __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] [EXT] Re: Inappropriate color name
Here’s a daft idea that brings it back to R For packages where there are problematic names, have aliases with acceptable names. Perhaps create a package to hold all those aliases. Then if a user wants their preferred names, load up the aliasing package and change them in bulk. Using a package means everyone has access to a standardized set of alternative terms. Just a thought. Coffee may not have kicked in yet. On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 5:36 AM Charles Novaes de Santana < charles.sant...@gmail.com> wrote: > The fact that for the first time we have so many messages in this group is > proof that the question asked by Lainey is appropriate and necessary. > > No language is static, they evolve thanks to discussions like this. > Remember that github stopped using the term "master" to describe the main > branch of a repository for example. > > I wonder what would happen if there was a color named "redneck" instead of > "indianred". > > Charles > > On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 at 10:37, Marc Roos wrote: > > > > > >name since it conveys the wrong indication of its purpose. But the > > >word 'racist' in itself is not offensive. The act of being racist is > > >offensive and wrong. Purging the word 'racist' won't help rid the > > >world of racism. > > > > Indeed, if you would go down this road, where does it stop? You would be > > eligible getting discussions why the female species is described with a > > longer word than the male. Why is there even a 'man' part in 'woman'. I > > can bet there are man and woman finding this offensive ;) > > What do you think about these symbols for male and female? Should be > > changed also, this male is now pointing up to heaven = good, and female > > pointing down to hell = bad? ;) > > > > > > > > __ > > R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > > PLEASE do read the posting guide > > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. > > > > > -- > Um axé! :) > > -- > Charles Novaes de Santana, PhD > https://github.com/cndesantana > > [[alternative HTML version deleted]] > > __ > R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile [[alternative HTML version deleted]] __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] [EXT] Re: Inappropriate color name
The fact that for the first time we have so many messages in this group is proof that the question asked by Lainey is appropriate and necessary. No language is static, they evolve thanks to discussions like this. Remember that github stopped using the term "master" to describe the main branch of a repository for example. I wonder what would happen if there was a color named "redneck" instead of "indianred". Charles On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 at 10:37, Marc Roos wrote: > > >name since it conveys the wrong indication of its purpose. But the > >word 'racist' in itself is not offensive. The act of being racist is > >offensive and wrong. Purging the word 'racist' won't help rid the > >world of racism. > > Indeed, if you would go down this road, where does it stop? You would be > eligible getting discussions why the female species is described with a > longer word than the male. Why is there even a 'man' part in 'woman'. I > can bet there are man and woman finding this offensive ;) > What do you think about these symbols for male and female? Should be > changed also, this male is now pointing up to heaven = good, and female > pointing down to hell = bad? ;) > > > > __ > R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. > -- Um axé! :) -- Charles Novaes de Santana, PhD https://github.com/cndesantana [[alternative HTML version deleted]] __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] [EXT] Re: Inappropriate color name
>name since it conveys the wrong indication of its purpose. But the >word 'racist' in itself is not offensive. The act of being racist is >offensive and wrong. Purging the word 'racist' won't help rid the >world of racism. Indeed, if you would go down this road, where does it stop? You would be eligible getting discussions why the female species is described with a longer word than the male. Why is there even a 'man' part in 'woman'. I can bet there are man and woman finding this offensive ;) What do you think about these symbols for male and female? Should be changed also, this male is now pointing up to heaven = good, and female pointing down to hell = bad? ;) __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] [EXT] Re: Inappropriate color name
Can you guys take this off the list? I don't think that discussing these concerns is within the bounds of the list mandate. The original questioner has gotten the answer to his question (namely to correspond with the R-Core) and this section of the thread is clearly not about how to solve problems with R. -- David Winsemius On 11/19/20 5:06 PM, David Wright wrote: Is it really the proposal that the word 'Indian' should not be allowed when referring to someone or something from India? Context is important. Innumerable words can offend if used with that intent, but we don't banish them because they have common standard meaning. Words which serve only as reminders of historical or present wrongs are rightly abandoned. As this started with colours: should the word 'coloured' be banned? It is rightly deeply offensive to use this in referring to a person and such usage should be unequivocally admonished. If I ask on this forum for advice on better ways in which my data plots could be coloured for clarity I think that's ok. Lastly, in the example I fail to see how the name R-assist is offensive. It's no doubt a faux pas and I would change the package name since it conveys the wrong indication of its purpose. But the word 'racist' in itself is not offensive. The act of being racist is offensive and wrong. Purging the word 'racist' won't help rid the world of racism. On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 23:16, Andrew Robinson wrote: I see a lot of reasoning in this thread that I consider specious at best. What seems clear to me, writing as a cis-gendered grey white male, is that we need to make more room. How do we do this? We do it by listening, reflecting, and responding. If words that we use are hurtful, then we must change them. This process will not be perfect. It will be messy. Our feelings may be hurt, our principles outraged. Treasured words may disappear. That is how we make room. I find appeals to etymology to be irrelevant. History is rife with examples of innocent symbols and words being co-opted. We abandon those symbols and words, rightly, because the taint clings to them, rightly or wrongly. I find appeals to broad usage to also be irrelevant. Change starts where and when we all decide that it starts. The R community is its own thing. Finally, I find appeals to stakeholder group size to be irrelevant. The point is not to count the people who won't be offended. Here's a personal example: more than 10 years ago, a co-author and I submitted a package to CRAN that was designed to make R a little easier to use. We called it R-assist. It sailed through all the checks, and was published on CRAN. We were then besieged with complaints from native German speakers. So we changed the name. Best wishes, Andrew -- Andrew Robinson Director, CEBRA and Professor of Biosecurity, School/s of BioSciences and Mathematics & Statistics University of Melbourne, VIC 3010 Australia Tel: (+61) 0403 138 955 Email: a...@unimelb.edu.au Website: https://researchers.ms.unimelb.edu.au/~apro@unimelb/ I acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land I inhabit, and pay my respects to their Elders. On Nov 20, 2020, 9:28 AM +1100, Heinz Tuechler , wrote: UoM notice: External email. Be cautious of links, attachments, or impersonation attempts inline - David Wright wrote on 19.11.2020 12:39: Appropriation of Indian Red as 'Chestnut' (or other alternative) will be viewed by some as 'making appropriate' the label for a colour, and no doubt by other groups as cultural theft by excising reference to its origin. Seems the best option is to recognise the actual etymology carries no semblance of offense whatsoever, and leave well alone. One may remember that people who might feel offended by "Indian Red" (Native Americans) make up less than 0.5 percent of all "Indians". It is hardly the fault of the people of India that Native Americans were called Indians by an Italian navigator who thought he had landed in India. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. [[alternative HTML version deleted]] __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] [EXT] Re: Inappropriate color name
Is it really the proposal that the word 'Indian' should not be allowed when referring to someone or something from India? Context is important. Innumerable words can offend if used with that intent, but we don't banish them because they have common standard meaning. Words which serve only as reminders of historical or present wrongs are rightly abandoned. As this started with colours: should the word 'coloured' be banned? It is rightly deeply offensive to use this in referring to a person and such usage should be unequivocally admonished. If I ask on this forum for advice on better ways in which my data plots could be coloured for clarity I think that's ok. Lastly, in the example I fail to see how the name R-assist is offensive. It's no doubt a faux pas and I would change the package name since it conveys the wrong indication of its purpose. But the word 'racist' in itself is not offensive. The act of being racist is offensive and wrong. Purging the word 'racist' won't help rid the world of racism. On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 23:16, Andrew Robinson wrote: > > I see a lot of reasoning in this thread that I consider specious at best. > > What seems clear to me, writing as a cis-gendered grey white male, is that we > need to make more room. How do we do this? We do it by listening, > reflecting, and responding. If words that we use are hurtful, then we must > change them. This process will not be perfect. It will be messy. Our > feelings may be hurt, our principles outraged. Treasured words may disappear. > That is how we make room. > > I find appeals to etymology to be irrelevant. History is rife with examples > of innocent symbols and words being co-opted. We abandon those symbols and > words, rightly, because the taint clings to them, rightly or wrongly. > > I find appeals to broad usage to also be irrelevant. Change starts where and > when we all decide that it starts. The R community is its own thing. > > Finally, I find appeals to stakeholder group size to be irrelevant. The point > is not to count the people who won't be offended. > > Here's a personal example: more than 10 years ago, a co-author and I > submitted a package to CRAN that was designed to make R a little easier to > use. We called it R-assist. It sailed through all the checks, and was > published on CRAN. We were then besieged with complaints from native German > speakers. So we changed the name. > > Best wishes, > > Andrew > > -- > Andrew Robinson > Director, CEBRA and Professor of Biosecurity, > School/s of BioSciences and Mathematics & Statistics > University of Melbourne, VIC 3010 Australia > Tel: (+61) 0403 138 955 > Email: a...@unimelb.edu.au > Website: https://researchers.ms.unimelb.edu.au/~apro@unimelb/ > > I acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land I inhabit, and pay my > respects to their Elders. > On Nov 20, 2020, 9:28 AM +1100, Heinz Tuechler , wrote: > UoM notice: External email. Be cautious of links, attachments, or > impersonation attempts > > inline - David Wright wrote on 19.11.2020 12:39: > Appropriation of Indian Red as 'Chestnut' (or other alternative) will > be viewed by some as 'making appropriate' the label for a colour, and > no doubt by other groups as cultural theft by excising reference to > its origin. > > Seems the best option is to recognise the actual etymology carries no > semblance of offense whatsoever, and leave well alone. > > > One may remember that people who might feel offended by "Indian Red" > (Native Americans) make up less than 0.5 percent of all "Indians". > It is hardly the fault of the people of India that Native Americans were > called Indians by an Italian navigator who thought he had landed in India. > > __ > R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. > > > [[alternative HTML version deleted]] > > __ > R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] [EXT] Re: Inappropriate color name
I see a lot of reasoning in this thread that I consider specious at best. What seems clear to me, writing as a cis-gendered grey white male, is that we need to make more room. How do we do this? We do it by listening, reflecting, and responding. If words that we use are hurtful, then we must change them. This process will not be perfect. It will be messy. Our feelings may be hurt, our principles outraged. Treasured words may disappear. That is how we make room. I find appeals to etymology to be irrelevant. History is rife with examples of innocent symbols and words being co-opted. We abandon those symbols and words, rightly, because the taint clings to them, rightly or wrongly. I find appeals to broad usage to also be irrelevant. Change starts where and when we all decide that it starts. The R community is its own thing. Finally, I find appeals to stakeholder group size to be irrelevant. The point is not to count the people who won't be offended. Here's a personal example: more than 10 years ago, a co-author and I submitted a package to CRAN that was designed to make R a little easier to use. We called it R-assist. It sailed through all the checks, and was published on CRAN. We were then besieged with complaints from native German speakers. So we changed the name. Best wishes, Andrew -- Andrew Robinson Director, CEBRA and Professor of Biosecurity, School/s of BioSciences and Mathematics & Statistics University of Melbourne, VIC 3010 Australia Tel: (+61) 0403 138 955 Email: a...@unimelb.edu.au Website: https://researchers.ms.unimelb.edu.au/~apro@unimelb/ I acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land I inhabit, and pay my respects to their Elders. On Nov 20, 2020, 9:28 AM +1100, Heinz Tuechler , wrote: UoM notice: External email. Be cautious of links, attachments, or impersonation attempts inline - David Wright wrote on 19.11.2020 12:39: Appropriation of Indian Red as 'Chestnut' (or other alternative) will be viewed by some as 'making appropriate' the label for a colour, and no doubt by other groups as cultural theft by excising reference to its origin. Seems the best option is to recognise the actual etymology carries no semblance of offense whatsoever, and leave well alone. One may remember that people who might feel offended by "Indian Red" (Native Americans) make up less than 0.5 percent of all "Indians". It is hardly the fault of the people of India that Native Americans were called Indians by an Italian navigator who thought he had landed in India. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. [[alternative HTML version deleted]] __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
