Re: [racket-users] Programming paradigms supported by Racket (according to wikipedia)

2017-02-16 Thread Matthias Felleisen 


The world of text books for undergraduate PL classes changed radically in the 
1980s with the introduction of Kamin’s book and Friedman & Wand’s EOPL. One of 
the final bricks in this wall to fence of “paradigm” teaching is SK’s PLAI. 
Instead of paradigms, these books emphasized the idea of interpretation and 
everything that goes with it (type checking, gc, transformations on 
interpreters (cps, sps), and many more language concepts). The DSL movement of 
the last 10 years has also bought into this. 

This is not to say that the stone-aged “paradigmers” don’t write books anymore 
or that the people don’t teach this stuff anymore. But no self-respecting 
research university does. Instead they hire a well-trained PL guy and move away 
from this nonsense. 

— Matthias








> On Feb 16, 2017, at 6:18 AM, Stephen De Gabrielle  
> wrote:
> 
>  I've edited both the paradigms and comparison pages to emphasise and add 
> criticisms citing the paper.
> 
> While I don't consider  Wikipedia either a safe  or reliable source for 
> study, it is nevertheless used widely. I would suggest in this context it is 
> a marketing tool -  just take a look at the language which supports all 
> paradigms.  I don't think that simply removing Racket is helpful.
> 
> It would be helpful if there were more sources that supported the criticism 
> both of classifying languages in this way, and as a teaching methodology.  If 
> you are  aware of any please let me know and I will at them. 
> 
> Kind regards 
> 
> Stephen
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 at 14:30, Matthias Felleisen  wrote:
> 
>> On Feb 11, 2017, at 8:31 AM, Greg Trzeciak  wrote:
>> 
>> I have stumbled upon the following wiki page:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_multi-paradigm_programming_languages
>> 
>> Supported paradigms:
>> ---
>> Language: Racket
>> Num­ber of Para­digms: 6 
>> Con­cur­rent: No
>> Con­straints: No
>> Data­flow: No
>> De­clar­at­ive: No
>> Dis­trib­uted: No
>> Func­tion­al: Yes
>> Meta­pro­gram­ming: Yes
>> Gen­er­ic: No
>> Im­per­at­ive: Yes
>> Lo­gic: Yes
>> Re­flec­tion: Yes
>> Ob­ject-ori­ented: Yes
>> Pipe­lines: No
>> Visu­al: No
>> Rule-based: No
>> Oth­er para­digms: No (not listed paradigms can be mentioned here)
>> 
>> According to the same page eg. Julia supports 17 paradigms.
>> 
>> Not being an expert in Racket I can see the article sells Racket short. How 
>> really this table should look like in regards to Racket?
> 
> 
> Racket should be removed from the list. 
> 
>  
> http://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/sk-teach-pl-post-linnaean/
> 
>  Programming language ‘‘paradigms’’ are a moribund and tedious legacy of a 
> bygone age. 
>  Modern language designers pay them no respect, so why do our courses 
> slavishly adhere 
>  to them? This paper argues that we should abandon this method of teaching 
> languages, 
>  offers an alternative, reconciles an important split in programming language 
> education, 
>  and describes a textbook that explores these matters.
>  
>  (Shriram’s dissertation on linguistic reuse inspired Racket’s modular system 
> of languages.)
> 
> If you have time to edit the wikipage, please do so. Thanks — Matthias
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Racket Users" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> -- 
> Kind regards,
> Stephen
> --

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Racket Users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [racket-users] Programming paradigms supported by Racket (according to wikipedia)

2017-02-16 Thread Stephen De Gabrielle 
 I've edited both the paradigms and comparison pages to emphasise and add
criticisms citing the paper.

While I don't consider  Wikipedia either a safe  or reliable source for
study, it is nevertheless used widely. I would suggest in this context it
is a marketing tool -  just take a look at the language which supports all
paradigms.  I don't think that simply removing Racket is helpful.

It would be helpful if there were more sources that supported the criticism
both of classifying languages in this way, and as a teaching methodology.
If you are  aware of any please let me know and I will at them.

Kind regards

Stephen
On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 at 14:30, Matthias Felleisen 
wrote:

>
> On Feb 11, 2017, at 8:31 AM, Greg Trzeciak  wrote:
>
> I have stumbled upon the following wiki page:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_multi-paradigm_programming_languages
>
> Supported paradigms:
> ---
> Language: Racket
> Num­ber of Para­digms: 6
> Con­cur­rent: No
> Con­straints: No
> Data­flow: No
> De­clar­at­ive: No
> Dis­trib­uted: No
> Func­tion­al: Yes
> Meta­pro­gram­ming: Yes
> Gen­er­ic: No
> Im­per­at­ive: Yes
> Lo­gic: Yes
> Re­flec­tion: Yes
> Ob­ject-ori­ented: Yes
> Pipe­lines: No
> Visu­al: No
> Rule-based: No
> Oth­er para­digms: No (not listed paradigms can be mentioned here)
>
> According to the same page eg. Julia supports 17 paradigms.
>
> Not being an expert in Racket I can see the article sells Racket short.
> How really this table should look like in regards to Racket?
>
>
>
> Racket should be removed from the list.
>
>
> http://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/sk-teach-pl-post-linnaean/
>
>  Programming language ‘‘paradigms’’ are a moribund and tedious legacy of a
> bygone age.
>  Modern language designers pay them no respect, so why do our courses
> slavishly adhere
>  to them? This paper argues that we should abandon this method of teaching
> languages,
>  offers an alternative, reconciles an important split in programming
> language education,
>  and describes a textbook that explores these matters.
>
>  (Shriram’s dissertation on linguistic reuse inspired Racket’s modular
> system of languages.)
>
> If you have time to edit the wikipage, please do so. Thanks — Matthias
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Racket Users" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
-- 
Kind regards,
Stephen
--

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Racket Users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [racket-users] Programming paradigms supported by Racket (according to wikipedia)

2017-02-16 Thread Luis Sanjuán 
On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 11:19:06 PM UTC+1, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
> > On Feb 12, 2017, at 4:55 PM, Greg Trzeciak  wrote:
> > 
> > On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 10:35:45 PM UTC+1, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
> >> Thanks. I assume you have seen my old web page with Don Q as my image :-) 
> > 
> > Believe it or not... I haven't which makes the analogy even more fitting =)
> > 
> > To make sure I didn't simply have it in my subconsciousness I even checked 
> > wayback machine:
> > https://web.archive.org/web/20100823072635/http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/
> > 
> > That was the last time you used it - at that time I didn't even know of 
> > existence of Racket!
> 
> 
> Yes :-) I am now convinced some of my work can make it … (well, I actually 
> wanted to move to a different picture and did not find the right-sized Don Q 
> picture).


I can't resist to mention -) You have lots of beautiful drawings of everything 
in "Don Quijote" from classic editions in this page:

http://www.qbi2005.com/Default.aspx

[Use rights are specified here: http://www.qbi2005.com/wfrmAyuda.aspx]

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Racket Users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [racket-users] Programming paradigms supported by Racket (according to wikipedia)

2017-02-12 Thread Matthias Felleisen 

> On Feb 12, 2017, at 4:55 PM, Greg Trzeciak  wrote:
> 
> On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 10:35:45 PM UTC+1, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
>> Thanks. I assume you have seen my old web page with Don Q as my image :-) 
> 
> Believe it or not... I haven't which makes the analogy even more fitting =)
> 
> To make sure I didn't simply have it in my subconsciousness I even checked 
> wayback machine:
> https://web.archive.org/web/20100823072635/http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/
> 
> That was the last time you used it - at that time I didn't even know of 
> existence of Racket!


Yes :-) I am now convinced some of my work can make it … (well, I actually 
wanted to move to a different picture and did not find the right-sized Don Q 
picture). 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Racket Users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [racket-users] Programming paradigms supported by Racket (according to wikipedia)

2017-02-12 Thread Greg Trzeciak 
On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 10:35:45 PM UTC+1, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
> Thanks. I assume you have seen my old web page with Don Q as my image :-) 

Believe it or not... I haven't which makes the analogy even more fitting =)

To make sure I didn't simply have it in my subconsciousness I even checked 
wayback machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20100823072635/http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/

That was the last time you used it - at that time I didn't even know of 
existence of Racket!



-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Racket Users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [racket-users] Programming paradigms supported by Racket (according to wikipedia)

2017-02-12 Thread Matthias Felleisen 

> On Feb 12, 2017, at 4:32 PM, Greg Trzeciak  wrote:
> 
> On Saturday, February 11, 2017 at 3:30:42 PM UTC+1, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
>> Racket should be removed from the list. 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> http://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/sk-teach-pl-post-linnaean/
>> 
>>  Programming language ‘‘paradigms’’ are a moribund and tedious legacy of a 
>> bygone age. 
>>  Modern language designers pay them no respect, so why do our courses 
>> slavishly adhere 
>>  to them? This paper argues that we should abandon this method of teaching 
>> languages, 
>>  offers an alternative, reconciles an important split in programming 
>> language education, 
>>  and describes a textbook that explores these matters.
>>  
>>  (Shriram’s dissertation on linguistic reuse inspired Racket’s modular 
>> system of languages.)
>> 
>> 
>> If you have time to edit the wikipage, please do so. Thanks — Matthias
> 
> As a person not invested in PL research and teaching let me state a layman's 
> view.
> Whether we like it or not open access to wikipedia makes it an excellent tool 
> for promotion - and that's how I see all the "supported paradigms" - just a 
> marketing gimmick indicating language versatility. 
> Thank you for the article linked - the arguments make perfect sense, but I am 
> a bit doubtful if the battle can be won.
> Saying this, I like idealist (most of the time anyway) so if there will be no 
> serious objections in the next few days - I will be your Sancho Panza and 
> remove it as requested ;)
> 
> Greg


Thanks. I assume you have seen my old web page with Don Q as my image :-) 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Racket Users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [racket-users] Programming paradigms supported by Racket (according to wikipedia)

2017-02-12 Thread Greg Trzeciak 
On Saturday, February 11, 2017 at 3:30:42 PM UTC+1, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
> Racket should be removed from the list. 
> 
> 
>  
> http://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/sk-teach-pl-post-linnaean/
> 
>  Programming language ‘‘paradigms’’ are a moribund and tedious legacy of a 
> bygone age. 
>  Modern language designers pay them no respect, so why do our courses 
> slavishly adhere 
>  to them? This paper argues that we should abandon this method of teaching 
> languages, 
>  offers an alternative, reconciles an important split in programming language 
> education, 
>  and describes a textbook that explores these matters.
>  
>  (Shriram’s dissertation on linguistic reuse inspired Racket’s modular system 
> of languages.)
> 
> 
> If you have time to edit the wikipage, please do so. Thanks — Matthias

As a person not invested in PL research and teaching let me state a layman's 
view.
Whether we like it or not open access to wikipedia makes it an excellent tool 
for promotion - and that's how I see all the "supported paradigms" - just a 
marketing gimmick indicating language versatility. 
Thank you for the article linked - the arguments make perfect sense, but I am a 
bit doubtful if the battle can be won.
Saying this, I like idealist (most of the time anyway) so if there will be no 
serious objections in the next few days - I will be your Sancho Panza and 
remove it as requested ;)

Greg


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Racket Users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [racket-users] Programming paradigms supported by Racket (according to wikipedia)

2017-02-11 Thread Matthias Felleisen 

> On Feb 11, 2017, at 8:31 AM, Greg Trzeciak  wrote:
> 
> I have stumbled upon the following wiki page:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_multi-paradigm_programming_languages
> 
> Supported paradigms:
> ---
> Language: Racket
> Num­ber of Para­digms: 6  
> Con­cur­rent: No
> Con­straints: No
> Data­flow: No
> De­clar­at­ive: No
> Dis­trib­uted: No
> Func­tion­al: Yes
> Meta­pro­gram­ming: Yes
> Gen­er­ic: No
> Im­per­at­ive: Yes
> Lo­gic: Yes
> Re­flec­tion: Yes
> Ob­ject-ori­ented: Yes
> Pipe­lines: No
> Visu­al: No
> Rule-based: No
> Oth­er para­digms: No (not listed paradigms can be mentioned here)
> 
> According to the same page eg. Julia supports 17 paradigms.
> 
> Not being an expert in Racket I can see the article sells Racket short. How 
> really this table should look like in regards to Racket?


Racket should be removed from the list. 

 
http://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/sk-teach-pl-post-linnaean/
 


 Programming language ‘‘paradigms’’ are a moribund and tedious legacy of a 
bygone age. 
 Modern language designers pay them no respect, so why do our courses slavishly 
adhere 
 to them? This paper argues that we should abandon this method of teaching 
languages, 
 offers an alternative, reconciles an important split in programming language 
education, 
 and describes a textbook that explores these matters.
 
 (Shriram’s dissertation on linguistic reuse inspired Racket’s modular system 
of languages.)

If you have time to edit the wikipage, please do so. Thanks — Matthias

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Racket Users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [racket-users] Programming paradigms supported by Racket (according to wikipedia)

2017-02-11 Thread Jerzy Karczmarczuk 

Le 11/02/2017 à 14:31, Greg Trzeciak a écrit :


I have stumbled upon the following wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_multi-paradigm_programming_languages

Supported paradigms:
---
Language: Racket
Num­ber of Para­digms: 6
...
According to the same page eg. Julia supports 17 paradigms.

Not being an expert in Racket I can see the article sells Racket short. How 
really this table should look like in regards to Racket?
Well, we poor Haskellians, and our friends, whose prayers go to Lava, we 
have the right to declare just 2 paradigms in our passports... What a 
tragedy...
BTW., I always thought about choosing my religion (e.g. the Mormonism or 
Islam Shia, or Buddhsm Vajrayana) according to the number of paradigms. 
This is THE fundamental property of a religion for a really deep 
Thinker, isn't it?...)


More seriously, *this table is simply silly*. It has been written by 
somebody who scanned some Wikipedia pages, and finding that, e.g., Lava 
is a visual object-oriented language, marked YES in these two columns, 
without looking elsewhere.


Fortran for the Authors is not imperative.

*Please, forget it.* The Authors sometimes issue a semi-positive  "yes", 
saying "library", but I doubt seriously that they could check even 1% of 
the available packages for their 60 languages, which include Windows 
PowerShell, but no Unix shells, no Smalltalk,  etc.
All this "work" should be suppressed from Wikipedia, since it might be 
pedagogically harmful.


Jerzy Karczmarczuk
/Caen, France/

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Racket 
Users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[racket-users] Programming paradigms supported by Racket (according to wikipedia)

2017-02-11 Thread Greg Trzeciak 
I have stumbled upon the following wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_multi-paradigm_programming_languages

Supported paradigms:
---
Language: Racket
Num­ber of Para­digms: 6
Con­cur­rent: No
Con­straints: No
Data­flow: No
De­clar­at­ive: No
Dis­trib­uted: No
Func­tion­al: Yes
Meta­pro­gram­ming: Yes
Gen­er­ic: No
Im­per­at­ive: Yes
Lo­gic: Yes
Re­flec­tion: Yes
Ob­ject-ori­ented: Yes
Pipe­lines: No
Visu­al: No
Rule-based: No
Oth­er para­digms: No (not listed paradigms can be mentioned here)

According to the same page eg. Julia supports 17 paradigms.

Not being an expert in Racket I can see the article sells Racket short. How 
really this table should look like in regards to Racket?

Greg

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Racket Users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.