Re: [racket-users] [OT] Nostalgia

2019-09-13 Thread Annaia Berry
Yeah, one of the inspirations for Heresy is that a while back I went on a
big kick for hunting down early Lisps for 8bit and 16-bit micros.

Really most of the 8-bit ones are pretty terrible; extremely limited,
missing key features of the language (a lot of them leave out lambdas
entirely). The hardware just isn't up to the task, and most use so much
memory there's little left for your programs.

There's a few OK early Schemes though for early 16-bit machines though,
Gambit crops up on the Amiga, I think there was a pretty good Lisp for DOS
that gets a lot of praise, the Mac got the legendary MCL. And if you go all
the way back to MzScheme there was even a version of that for later 68k
Macs. ;)

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 4:19 PM Stephen De Gabrielle <
spdegabrie...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I remember being interested in Acornsof Lisp for the BBC Micro, but sadly
> it was too expensive to be seriously considered(£80 iirc). I did manage to
> get a hold of 'A little smalltalk' and the associated book later, but ended
> up going down the Racket rabbit hole instead...
>
> S.
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 8:03 AM Annaia Berry  wrote:
>
>> Amusingly enough, I've spent a little time playing with a Lisp someone
>> ported to the 128K Color Computer 3.
>>
>> https://github.com/jamieleecho/minilisp
>>
>> It is very hard to do much of anything once the interpreter and library
>> is loaded in. To be honest I'm still impressed it runs at all. :D It's a
>> pretty impressive little dialect for an 8-bit machine, even has macros and
>> lambdas, which most attempts lacked entirely.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:36 PM Neil Van Dyke 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Last week on HN, a non-student was complaining about having to increase
>>> DrRacket's memory limit 3 times while they were playing with it, so I
>>> pointed out that DrRacket was designed for new students, and suggested
>>> that maybe that memory limit was a good thing for new students.
>>>
>>> One of frequent complaints, from generation to generation, seems to be
>>> "kids these days got it too easy".  Which, in programming, is not
>>> necessarily grumpy, but concern that a lot of learning opportunity that
>>> comes from working with resource constraints is being missed.
>>> Personally, I think there's a balance, and there's also learning
>>> opportunity missed when you don't have lots of resources.  Ideally, a
>>> person gets both kinds of experiences.
>>>
>>> As a C and C++ programmer who was then an early Java promoter, I was a
>>> bit concerned about that, at the time.  I figured we'd probably move to
>>> Java, and all the students already had use of powerful multiprocessor
>>> workstations.  That was one of the attractions of then playing with
>>> programming the Pilot PDA ("https://www.neilvandyke.org/t-map/;), and I
>>> promoted Pilot programming to other students specifically for the reason
>>> of learning to develop with tight resource constraints.
>>>
>>> Other Racket relevance: the approach to fitting the toy "route planner"
>>> into a few KB was to use two little DSLs, with a Lisp as code generator
>>> to get around the limitations of macro preprocessing in C.  Between
>>> that, the crazy DSLs I made as sets of cpp macros for my compiler (C++)
>>> and robot (C) assignments, and an awful concurrent hierarchical state
>>> machines language that took way too much effort to implement in Java, I
>>> suppose it's not a surprise I later decided to move to Scheme/Lisp for
>>> my main research tools.
>>>
>>> Also, copious computing resources becoming available to lots of people
>>> became a concern to some researchers, who no longer felt as privileged
>>> as before.  At the start of the dotcom boom, one of my grad school
>>> advisors was already spending most of their time on startups (and there
>>> was some truth to the joke about advisor only wanting MS+IPO students).
>>> They called an off-site retreat for our group, where a big part of the
>>> case was that the university research lab no longer had special
>>> advantages like supercomputers that other people didn't have.  (And I'd
>>> previously been horrified to see the storage array cabinet from a
>>> Connection Machine being used as a barkeeper counter, for the lab's posh
>>> sponsor events.).
>>>
>>> Today, it's true: I have my own deep neural networks supercomputer in my
>>> living room, for a few hundred dollars, and it's just an ordinary
>>> consumer GPU like children have in their gaming PCs/consoles.  Which
>>> makes for "lots of resources" learning opportunities, complementing the
>>> "not enough resources (until you figure it out)" learning opportunities.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Racket Users" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> 

Re: [racket-users] [OT] Nostalgia

2019-09-11 Thread Stephen De Gabrielle
I remember being interested in Acornsof Lisp for the BBC Micro, but sadly
it was too expensive to be seriously considered(£80 iirc). I did manage to
get a hold of 'A little smalltalk' and the associated book later, but ended
up going down the Racket rabbit hole instead...

S.

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 8:03 AM Annaia Berry  wrote:

> Amusingly enough, I've spent a little time playing with a Lisp someone
> ported to the 128K Color Computer 3.
>
> https://github.com/jamieleecho/minilisp
>
> It is very hard to do much of anything once the interpreter and library is
> loaded in. To be honest I'm still impressed it runs at all. :D It's a
> pretty impressive little dialect for an 8-bit machine, even has macros and
> lambdas, which most attempts lacked entirely.
>
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:36 PM Neil Van Dyke  wrote:
>
>> Last week on HN, a non-student was complaining about having to increase
>> DrRacket's memory limit 3 times while they were playing with it, so I
>> pointed out that DrRacket was designed for new students, and suggested
>> that maybe that memory limit was a good thing for new students.
>>
>> One of frequent complaints, from generation to generation, seems to be
>> "kids these days got it too easy".  Which, in programming, is not
>> necessarily grumpy, but concern that a lot of learning opportunity that
>> comes from working with resource constraints is being missed.
>> Personally, I think there's a balance, and there's also learning
>> opportunity missed when you don't have lots of resources.  Ideally, a
>> person gets both kinds of experiences.
>>
>> As a C and C++ programmer who was then an early Java promoter, I was a
>> bit concerned about that, at the time.  I figured we'd probably move to
>> Java, and all the students already had use of powerful multiprocessor
>> workstations.  That was one of the attractions of then playing with
>> programming the Pilot PDA ("https://www.neilvandyke.org/t-map/;), and I
>> promoted Pilot programming to other students specifically for the reason
>> of learning to develop with tight resource constraints.
>>
>> Other Racket relevance: the approach to fitting the toy "route planner"
>> into a few KB was to use two little DSLs, with a Lisp as code generator
>> to get around the limitations of macro preprocessing in C.  Between
>> that, the crazy DSLs I made as sets of cpp macros for my compiler (C++)
>> and robot (C) assignments, and an awful concurrent hierarchical state
>> machines language that took way too much effort to implement in Java, I
>> suppose it's not a surprise I later decided to move to Scheme/Lisp for
>> my main research tools.
>>
>> Also, copious computing resources becoming available to lots of people
>> became a concern to some researchers, who no longer felt as privileged
>> as before.  At the start of the dotcom boom, one of my grad school
>> advisors was already spending most of their time on startups (and there
>> was some truth to the joke about advisor only wanting MS+IPO students).
>> They called an off-site retreat for our group, where a big part of the
>> case was that the university research lab no longer had special
>> advantages like supercomputers that other people didn't have.  (And I'd
>> previously been horrified to see the storage array cabinet from a
>> Connection Machine being used as a barkeeper counter, for the lab's posh
>> sponsor events.).
>>
>> Today, it's true: I have my own deep neural networks supercomputer in my
>> living room, for a few hundred dollars, and it's just an ordinary
>> consumer GPU like children have in their gaming PCs/consoles.  Which
>> makes for "lots of resources" learning opportunities, complementing the
>> "not enough resources (until you figure it out)" learning opportunities.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Racket Users" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/racket-users/8458611a-0bd8-8af3-dab9-dba61b8c2c42%40neilvandyke.org
>> .
>>
> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [racket-users] [OT] Nostalgia

2019-09-11 Thread Annaia Berry
Amusingly enough, I've spent a little time playing with a Lisp someone
ported to the 128K Color Computer 3.

https://github.com/jamieleecho/minilisp

It is very hard to do much of anything once the interpreter and library is
loaded in. To be honest I'm still impressed it runs at all. :D It's a
pretty impressive little dialect for an 8-bit machine, even has macros and
lambdas, which most attempts lacked entirely.

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:36 PM Neil Van Dyke  wrote:

> Last week on HN, a non-student was complaining about having to increase
> DrRacket's memory limit 3 times while they were playing with it, so I
> pointed out that DrRacket was designed for new students, and suggested
> that maybe that memory limit was a good thing for new students.
>
> One of frequent complaints, from generation to generation, seems to be
> "kids these days got it too easy".  Which, in programming, is not
> necessarily grumpy, but concern that a lot of learning opportunity that
> comes from working with resource constraints is being missed.
> Personally, I think there's a balance, and there's also learning
> opportunity missed when you don't have lots of resources.  Ideally, a
> person gets both kinds of experiences.
>
> As a C and C++ programmer who was then an early Java promoter, I was a
> bit concerned about that, at the time.  I figured we'd probably move to
> Java, and all the students already had use of powerful multiprocessor
> workstations.  That was one of the attractions of then playing with
> programming the Pilot PDA ("https://www.neilvandyke.org/t-map/;), and I
> promoted Pilot programming to other students specifically for the reason
> of learning to develop with tight resource constraints.
>
> Other Racket relevance: the approach to fitting the toy "route planner"
> into a few KB was to use two little DSLs, with a Lisp as code generator
> to get around the limitations of macro preprocessing in C.  Between
> that, the crazy DSLs I made as sets of cpp macros for my compiler (C++)
> and robot (C) assignments, and an awful concurrent hierarchical state
> machines language that took way too much effort to implement in Java, I
> suppose it's not a surprise I later decided to move to Scheme/Lisp for
> my main research tools.
>
> Also, copious computing resources becoming available to lots of people
> became a concern to some researchers, who no longer felt as privileged
> as before.  At the start of the dotcom boom, one of my grad school
> advisors was already spending most of their time on startups (and there
> was some truth to the joke about advisor only wanting MS+IPO students).
> They called an off-site retreat for our group, where a big part of the
> case was that the university research lab no longer had special
> advantages like supercomputers that other people didn't have.  (And I'd
> previously been horrified to see the storage array cabinet from a
> Connection Machine being used as a barkeeper counter, for the lab's posh
> sponsor events.).
>
> Today, it's true: I have my own deep neural networks supercomputer in my
> living room, for a few hundred dollars, and it's just an ordinary
> consumer GPU like children have in their gaming PCs/consoles.  Which
> makes for "lots of resources" learning opportunities, complementing the
> "not enough resources (until you figure it out)" learning opportunities.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Racket Users" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/racket-users/8458611a-0bd8-8af3-dab9-dba61b8c2c42%40neilvandyke.org
> .
>

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Re: [racket-users] [OT] Nostalgia

2019-09-06 Thread Neil Van Dyke
Last week on HN, a non-student was complaining about having to increase 
DrRacket's memory limit 3 times while they were playing with it, so I 
pointed out that DrRacket was designed for new students, and suggested 
that maybe that memory limit was a good thing for new students.


One of frequent complaints, from generation to generation, seems to be 
"kids these days got it too easy".  Which, in programming, is not 
necessarily grumpy, but concern that a lot of learning opportunity that 
comes from working with resource constraints is being missed. 
Personally, I think there's a balance, and there's also learning 
opportunity missed when you don't have lots of resources.  Ideally, a 
person gets both kinds of experiences.


As a C and C++ programmer who was then an early Java promoter, I was a 
bit concerned about that, at the time.  I figured we'd probably move to 
Java, and all the students already had use of powerful multiprocessor 
workstations.  That was one of the attractions of then playing with 
programming the Pilot PDA ("https://www.neilvandyke.org/t-map/;), and I 
promoted Pilot programming to other students specifically for the reason 
of learning to develop with tight resource constraints.


Other Racket relevance: the approach to fitting the toy "route planner" 
into a few KB was to use two little DSLs, with a Lisp as code generator 
to get around the limitations of macro preprocessing in C.  Between 
that, the crazy DSLs I made as sets of cpp macros for my compiler (C++) 
and robot (C) assignments, and an awful concurrent hierarchical state 
machines language that took way too much effort to implement in Java, I 
suppose it's not a surprise I later decided to move to Scheme/Lisp for 
my main research tools.


Also, copious computing resources becoming available to lots of people 
became a concern to some researchers, who no longer felt as privileged 
as before.  At the start of the dotcom boom, one of my grad school 
advisors was already spending most of their time on startups (and there 
was some truth to the joke about advisor only wanting MS+IPO students).  
They called an off-site retreat for our group, where a big part of the 
case was that the university research lab no longer had special 
advantages like supercomputers that other people didn't have.  (And I'd 
previously been horrified to see the storage array cabinet from a 
Connection Machine being used as a barkeeper counter, for the lab's posh 
sponsor events.).


Today, it's true: I have my own deep neural networks supercomputer in my 
living room, for a few hundred dollars, and it's just an ordinary 
consumer GPU like children have in their gaming PCs/consoles.  Which 
makes for "lots of resources" learning opportunities, complementing the 
"not enough resources (until you figure it out)" learning opportunities.


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Re: [racket-users] [OT] Nostalgia

2019-09-06 Thread Hendrik Boom
On Fri, Sep 06, 2019 at 02:49:45PM +0100, Stephen De Gabrielle wrote:
> LOL
> 128k !  I remember dreaming I had 128K when I was on a 16 K machine.

Well, that 128K was a big omprovement on the machine I *first* tried 
implementing Lisp on -- an IBM 1620 with 40,000 decimal digits of 
memory. Addresss were five digits, so a typical cons cell cost ten 
digits, leaving space for 4000 cons cells, less the space the 
interpreter took.  Proof of concept, maybe, but not very useful.
Lking back, could I  perhaps have improved things by using four-digit 
addresses?  Maybe the extra addressing code would have eclipsed the 
savings.

-- hendrik

> 
> Recently had to change my limit to 1024 MB...
> 
>  S.
> 
> On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 at 14:41, Hendrik Boom  wrote:
> 
> > I just noticed DrRacket telling me
> > Language: racket, with debugging ; memory limit: 128 MB
> > immediatey reminding me of the 128 K that was available on the first
> > Lisp system I got any actual use from -- one I implemented myself on an
> > IBM 360/65.  Back then there were rumours that some IBM customer
> > somewhere in the world had a machine with maximum storage -- 16 MB.
> >
> > And now we *restrict* ourselves to more RAM than one of the largest
> > machines then had available.
> >
> > And I got a lot done on that 128K machine, three orders of magnitude
> > ess than we hand out to students now.
> >
> > -- hendrik
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Racket Users" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> > email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/racket-users/20190906134118.ehqjvbvebkgoaqtd%40topoi.pooq.com
> > .
> >
> -- 
> 
> 
> -- 
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Re: [racket-users] [OT] Nostalgia

2019-09-06 Thread Stephen De Gabrielle
LOL
128k !  I remember dreaming I had 128K when I was on a 16 K machine.

Recently had to change my limit to 1024 MB...

 S.

On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 at 14:41, Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> I just noticed DrRacket telling me
> Language: racket, with debugging ; memory limit: 128 MB
> immediatey reminding me of the 128 K that was available on the first
> Lisp system I got any actual use from -- one I implemented myself on an
> IBM 360/65.  Back then there were rumours that some IBM customer
> somewhere in the world had a machine with maximum storage -- 16 MB.
>
> And now we *restrict* ourselves to more RAM than one of the largest
> machines then had available.
>
> And I got a lot done on that 128K machine, three orders of magnitude
> ess than we hand out to students now.
>
> -- hendrik
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Racket Users" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/racket-users/20190906134118.ehqjvbvebkgoaqtd%40topoi.pooq.com
> .
>
-- 


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