Re: [racket-users] Would it help to call racket2 something else?

2019-08-31 Thread evdubs
If "racket" is related to "scheme" by being an illegitimate scheme, I think 
"cartel" could be a good choice for "an even more illegitimate scheme". Plus, 
it's almost an anagram of racket.

#lang cartel

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Re: [racket-users] Would it help to call racket2 something else?

2019-08-29 Thread Jack Firth
On Thursday, August 29, 2019 at 12:46:53 AM UTC-4, David Storrs wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 11:43 PM Sage Gerard  > wrote:
>
>>
>> Maybe I'm overthinking this. I already know that nothing in #lang racket 
>> is getting thrown out or anything.
>
>
> Yes, it is.
>

I believe Sage's statement was that all current #lang racket modules will 
continue to work exactly the same, which is true. Nothing changes unless a 
module decides to use #lang racket2, and modules will not have to know 
whether or not their dependencies are written in #lang racket, in #lang 
racket2, or in a mixture of both. Backwards compatibility for existing 
unchanged modules will be preserved.

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Re: [racket-users] Would it help to call racket2 something else?

2019-08-28 Thread David Storrs
On Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 11:43 PM Sage Gerard  wrote:

>
> Maybe I'm overthinking this. I already know that nothing in #lang racket
> is getting thrown out or anything.



Yes, it is. #lang racket uses parenthesized S-expressions and prefix
notation such that operator precedence is not relevant and each expression
is a clearly self-contained entity that's easy to manipulate, since it's
essentially identical to its own parse tree.  #lang racket2 will be
non-parenthesized infix notation, probably with whitespace-significance.
Operator precedence will matter, it will be easy to accidentally move only
part of an expression/form, and the parse tree will be entirely different
from the user-level code.

I just feel like I am getting mixed messages about why this is all
> happening.
>

I've heard two explanations thus far. The first is that parentheses and
prefix notation are hard for students to grok and (by implication) Racket
uptake will increase if it moves to a more Python/Java/C-like syntax. I
think I may at some point have suggested that I have reservations about
this idea, but I acknowledge that the core developers are more skilled at
CS than I am and that they have more experience teaching and therefore a
larger dataset about what people find difficult to learn.

The other explanation I've heard is that Racket is due for a serious
overhaul and there's a lot of very powerful stuff that could be done if
backwards compatibility could be sacrificed. I think this is almost
certainly true, although there are certainly challenges.

So far as I'm aware, there isn't a clear statement of whether the primary
intent is to gain new users or to increase power for existing users, eg by
making the latest CS research available to the masses and fixing warts in
the existing language, etc. There's definitely tension between those goals.


One other issue that hasn't been discussed that I've seen is whether #lang
racket2 is intended for beginners or experienced developers. Everyone
starts off as a beginner but they don't stay beginners for long. (Unless
they stop programming completely, in which case there's no point in
factoring them into language design issues.) To me this suggests that it
would be possible to aim racket2 at experienced developers and use the
simpler teaching languages as a way of easing people into the ideas --
which, as I understand it, is what they're intended for and used for right
now.

Making syntax more similar to other languages is useful for Racket
beginners and will provide easier skill transference. Whether it's better
for experienced developers is an open question. Again, the core devs have
larger datasets than I do, although I will note that those datasets are
almost entirely compared of novices.


> -slg
>
>
>
>
>  Original Message 
> On Aug 28, 2019, 11:23 PM, George Neuner < gneun...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 8/28/2019 10:56 PM, Sage Gerard wrote:
> > #lang new-coke
> >
> > -slg
>
> "New Coke" was horrible ... tasted like the bastard child of Pepsi and
> Dr. Pepper.
>
> And no matter what they claim, "Classic Coke" never was (and still
> isn't) the same as the original.  Classic Coke hit shelves a mere 3
> months after the original was discontinued.  I had cases of original
> stockpiled and was able to do side by side comparison.  Classic tasted
> like original diluted with extra water.  Probably it was deliberately
> diluted to enhance profit and they hoped no one would notice.
>
> YMMV,
> George
>
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> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [racket-users] Would it help to call racket2 something else?

2019-08-28 Thread Sage Gerard
Got it, thanks

-slg

 Original Message 
On Aug 28, 2019, 11:48 PM, Jon Zeppieri wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 11:43 PM Sage Gerard  wrote:
>>
>> Why is the name Racket2 so important, anyway?
>
> It isn't. It's been mentioned several times that "Racket2" is
> currently just a placeholder for whatever it ends up being called.
>
> https://github.com/racket/racket2-rfcs/issues/111#issuecomment-523044004
>
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Re: [racket-users] Would it help to call racket2 something else?

2019-08-28 Thread Jon Zeppieri
On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 11:43 PM Sage Gerard  wrote:
>
> Why is the name Racket2 so important, anyway?

It isn't. It's been mentioned several times that "Racket2" is
currently just a placeholder for whatever it ends up being called.

https://github.com/racket/racket2-rfcs/issues/111#issuecomment-523044004

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Re: [racket-users] Would it help to call racket2 something else?

2019-08-28 Thread Sage Gerard
That's actually really cool that you had both available to taste. My analogy 
doesn't totally fit, but the preliminary discussions of Racket2 looked enough 
like the preliminary discussions for New Coke to remind me of them--and to make 
cracking a joke about it too tempting.

In terms of the OP, I wonder if the community response would have been better 
if the name didn't evoke thoughts of a sequel or a redesign. Why is the name 
Racket2 so important, anyway? Did I miss an announcement that clarified this? 
Why is a core designer's idea of a canon (for lack of a better word) mixed in 
with a brand people associate with freedom FROM canon?

Maybe I'm overthinking this. I already know that nothing in #lang racket is 
getting thrown out or anything. I just feel like I am getting mixed messages 
about why this is all happening.

-slg

 Original Message 
On Aug 28, 2019, 11:23 PM, George Neuner wrote:

> On 8/28/2019 10:56 PM, Sage Gerard wrote:
>> #lang new-coke
>>
>> -slg
>
> "New Coke" was horrible ... tasted like the bastard child of Pepsi and
> Dr. Pepper.
>
> And no matter what they claim, "Classic Coke" never was (and still
> isn't) the same as the original.  Classic Coke hit shelves a mere 3
> months after the original was discontinued.  I had cases of original
> stockpiled and was able to do side by side comparison.  Classic tasted
> like original diluted with extra water.  Probably it was deliberately
> diluted to enhance profit and they hoped no one would notice.
>
> YMMV,
> George
>
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Re: [racket-users] Would it help to call racket2 something else?

2019-08-28 Thread George Neuner



On 8/28/2019 10:56 PM, Sage Gerard wrote:

#lang new-coke

-slg


"New Coke" was horrible ... tasted like the bastard child of Pepsi and 
Dr. Pepper.


And no matter what they claim, "Classic Coke" never was (and still 
isn't) the same as the original.  Classic Coke hit shelves a mere 3 
months after the original was discontinued.  I had cases of original 
stockpiled and was able to do side by side comparison.  Classic tasted 
like original diluted with extra water.  Probably it was deliberately 
diluted to enhance profit and they hoped no one would notice.


YMMV,
George

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Re: [racket-users] Would it help to call racket2 something else?

2019-08-28 Thread Sage Gerard
#lang new-coke

-slg

 Original Message 
On Aug 28, 2019, 10:39 PM, 'Joel Dueck' via Racket Users wrote:

> On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 4:14:40 PM UTC-5, David Storrs wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 5:08 PM Daniel Prager  wrote:
>>
>>> I reckon #lang retack would at least make an apt working title. ;-)
>>
>> Hang on, 'tack' means to change direction across the wind, so shouldn't 
>> 'retack' mean to change direction and then change direction again such that 
>> you're back to your original course?  I'm not sure how apropos that would be 
>> in this case...  ;>
>
> I concur with David!
>
>  I think something more like `#lang tacker`
> — as in the actor-noun form of the nautical ‘tack’,
> “to change the course of a sailing vessel by bringing the head into the wind
>[and then causing it to fall off on the other side]”
> or more simply, “to run obliquely against the wind”
> or, “to follow a zig-zag course”
>  — feels right for the kind of effort being undertaken. :)
>
> Besides, it also provides a pleasing phonetic symmetry with `#lang racket`.
>
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Re: [racket-users] Would it help to call racket2 something else?

2019-08-28 Thread 'Joel Dueck' via Racket Users
On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 4:14:40 PM UTC-5, David Storrs wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 5:08 PM Daniel Prager  wrote:
>
>> I reckon *#lang retack* would at least make an apt working title. ;-)
>>
>
> Hang on, 'tack' means to change direction across the wind, so shouldn't 
> 'retack' mean to change direction and then change direction again such that 
> you're back to your original course?  I'm not sure how apropos that would 
> be in this case...  ;>
>

I concur with David!

 I think something more like `#lang tacker` 
— as in the actor-noun form of the nautical ‘tack’, 
“to change the course of a sailing vessel by bringing the head into the wind
   [and then causing it to fall off on the other side]” 
or more simply, “to run obliquely against the wind” 
or, “to follow a zig-zag course”
 — feels right for the kind of effort being undertaken. :)
 
Besides, it also provides a pleasing phonetic symmetry with `#lang racket`. 

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Re: [racket-users] Would it help to call racket2 something else?

2019-08-28 Thread David Storrs
On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 5:08 PM Daniel Prager 
wrote:

> Changing the canonical syntax seems like a bigger jump than from PLT
> Scheme to Racket.
>
> Perhaps a name change would help.
>
> I looked up English language anagrams of racket and found two: retack and
> tacker.
>
> *retack** [Nautical] To tack or alter course by sailing into the wind for
> a second or further time.*
>
> I reckon *#lang retack* would at least make an apt working title. ;-)
>
> Dan
>

Hang on, 'tack' means to change direction across the wind, so shouldn't
'retack' mean to change direction and then change direction again such that
you're back to your original course?  I'm not sure how apropos that would
be in this case...  ;>

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> .
>

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