[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Ash A]

Btw, if someone of same height as me, but lower PBH were to use my bike, I 
think Albatross bar would work better. 



On Tuesday, 13 June 2017 16:04:25 UTC-7, Ash A wrote:
>
>
> In last 1 year I have done several 23 mile one-way commute rides on bikes 
> with drop bars. After every ride I *minor* pain and discomfort in various 
> areas of arms, shoulder, neck and upper back.  I keep finding ways to raise 
> the handlebar.  I was able to reduce the  discomfort by about 50%.  I've 
> done the same ride about a dozen or so times on Appaloosa with Choco-norm 
> bar ( and much thicker tires).  It takes about 5-10 minutes longer, but I 
> hardly feel any of those issues.  Feels like I could keep going for 3 more 
> hours.  I stay on grips (ergon) 70% of the times.  Use the corners while 
> climbing or feel like sprinting for a little while.  When Choco-Norm is 
> mounted upside down (like this 
> https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/products/hb3b-2_1024x1024.jpg?v=1471030606),
>  
> the corners provide amazingly ergonomic position for forearms and wrists.
>
> Like others mentioned, the right handlebar would largely depend on the 
> frame design/size and rider's body design (long legs vs long torso, long 
> arms vs short).  The goal would be to keep lower back, shoulders, neck, 
> elbows and wrists in as a natural position as possible and as relaxed as 
> possible.  This is the key to minimizing biking related wear and tear to 
> the body (and being able to see the world around and enjoy the ride), IMO.
>
>
>
> On Friday, 2 June 2017 09:16:50 UTC-7, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>>
>> Hi everybody, 
>>
>> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
>> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
>> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
>> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
>> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
>> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
>> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>>
>> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may 
>> not work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
>> perspectives!
>>
>> Peter 
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Ash A]

In last 1 year I have done several 23 mile one-way commute rides on bikes 
with drop bars. After every ride I *minor* pain and discomfort in various 
areas of arms, shoulder, neck and upper back.  I keep finding ways to raise 
the handlebar.  I was able to reduce the  discomfort by about 50%.  I've 
done the same ride about a dozen or so times on Appaloosa with Choco-norm 
bar ( and much thicker tires).  It takes about 5-10 minutes longer, but I 
hardly feel any of those issues.  Feels like I could keep going for 3 more 
hours.  I stay on grips (ergon) 70% of the times.  Use the corners while 
climbing or feel like sprinting for a little while.  When Choco-Norm is 
mounted upside down (like 
this 
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/products/hb3b-2_1024x1024.jpg?v=1471030606),
 
the corners provide amazingly ergonomic position for forearms and wrists.

Like others mentioned, the right handlebar would largely depend on the 
frame design/size and rider's body design (long legs vs long torso, long 
arms vs short).  The goal would be to keep lower back, shoulders, neck, 
elbows and wrists in as a natural position as possible and as relaxed as 
possible.  This is the key to minimizing biking related wear and tear to 
the body (and being able to see the world around and enjoy the ride), IMO.



On Friday, 2 June 2017 09:16:50 UTC-7, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>
> Hi everybody, 
>
> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>
> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may not 
> work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
> perspectives!
>
> Peter 
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Chris Birkenmaier]

Hi.  Great looking bikes!  Can you tell me which Notto flat bars are on 
your Heron?  I have Soma's Noah's Arc on one of my bikes but these look 
nice.

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 5:33:26 PM UTC-4, reynoldslugs wrote:
>
> I have flat bars on several bikes, and I enjoy them.  I ride about 60% 
> time with drops, about 40% on flat/"alternative" bars. My favorites *by 
> far* are One-One Mary's.  The perfect fit for me is to install the upside 
> down (See pics).
>
> Many, many long rides (75k and more), mostly with plenty of climbing 
> (several thousand vertical feet in most rides)  My totally subjective, non 
> scientific, seat-of-the pants assessment: drops are faster and more 
> efficient (for reasons others have outlined), but descents are more fun 
> with the flat bars - it's easier to brake. 
>
> I tend to ride the flat bars when I am feeling out of shape and my 
> neck/back are sore and not happy to be in the drops. 
>
> Here ya go, check em out - on a Bob Jackson road bike and Pereira custom 
> road.  I also had Mary's on my Vanilla road for a while, and a Nitto bar my 
> old Heron:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157643546486474
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157637495551626
>
> Vanilla:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157648539227913
>
> Heron (with Nitto bars)
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157642068014924
>
> Max Beach
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Jay Connolly]

As a cyclist and a leukemia patient, I really appreciate learning about 
Freddie. Thanks for the link.

Jay

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Broccoli Cog]

For those interested to learn more about Freddie Hoffman here is a link you 
can read here 

On Saturday, June 10, 2017 at 2:10:40 AM UTC-4, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>
> Freddie Hoffman has ridden more than 1.5 million miles with an 
> upright-swept back handlebar. In the '80s he averated 50,000 miles per 
> year. We've covered him in the RR, he's been written up here and there...it 
> can be done.
>
> On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 9:16:50 AM UTC-7, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>>
>> Hi everybody, 
>>
>> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
>> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
>> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
>> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
>> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
>> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
>> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>>
>> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may 
>> not work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
>> perspectives!
>>
>> Peter 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Freddie Hoffman has ridden more than 1.5 million miles with an 
upright-swept back handlebar. In the '80s he averated 50,000 miles per 
year. We've covered him in the RR, he's been written up here and there...it 
can be done.

On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 9:16:50 AM UTC-7, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>
> Hi everybody, 
>
> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>
> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may not 
> work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
> perspectives!
>
> Peter 
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[lconley]

I rode the entire Cross-Florida (175 miles in two days) last year with 
Bullmoose bars with Brooks grips (large) on my Bombadil (50 x 650b Big 
Bens). Then I went out and bought some Ergon grips and switched the B-17 
for a B-67. Extra surface area reduces the pressure - I am overweight.

On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 12:16:50 PM UTC-4, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>
> Hi everybody, 
>
> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>
> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may not 
> work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
> perspectives!
>
> Peter 
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Jon BALER]

I use Velo orange crazy bars on my touring bike, and have done many 70+ mile 
days.

My commuter has choco bars, and I have done up to 60 miles in a day.

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Broccoli Cog]

This is a great thread and so timely for as well. I have only been riding the 
Albatross bars for a couple of weeks. I still don't feel completely 
comfortable. I agree that stem length, bar height angle of the bar and saddle 
position are all a big factor. Still experimenting with my set up.

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

['Eamon Nordquist' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I've toured comfortably on my old mountain bike (1987 Trek Antelope). The 
longest day I've done on it was 70 miles - loaded for camping, and almost 
all on gravel. It has the stock handle bars, which have 6cm or so of rise 
and a tiny amount of backward sweep (5 to 10 degrees at most). These 
pictures don't show it, but the bars are actually slightly below saddle 
height. I also use Ergon grips, having had sore hands/wrists before after 
50 or so miles. For me, good saddle position, and bar height/stem length 
are the biggest factors.

Disclaimer: I do not ride fast, and fully get that the faster you ride, the 
greater the penalty for not having an aerodynamic position. My bar position 
is long and low enough for me to still be able to get somewhat aero if I 
need.

Eamon


On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 9:16:50 AM UTC-7, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>
> Hi everybody, 
>
> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>
> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may not 
> work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
> perspectives!
>
> Peter 
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[ant ritchey]

i've got probably 10-12 100+ mile days on the trusty albatross under the 
belt...and w/ touring accoutrements. depends on so many things, though! i 
ride many bars, always. but at current they're my forever bar, for what 
little it may be worth.

-a

On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 9:16:50 AM UTC-7, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>
> Hi everybody, 
>
> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>
> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may not 
> work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
> perspectives!
>
> Peter 
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Bob K.]

I did a few 50+ mile rides with Albatross bars on my Sam Hillborne. Ultimately, 
I changed them out for Albastache because the sweep of the Albatross made me 
feel cramped. I like the Albastache setup and pull a trailer with my 2.5 year 
old using that bike all the time. Works like a charm. Worked fine with the 
Albatross, too.

I've also done long rides with a Surly Open Bar and a Jones Loop Bar. Both are 
great. I prefer the Jones, but the Surly was super comfy on a mostly off-road 
tour. 

I second what everyone above said about comfort being king. If I had to choose 
one of the aforementioned bars, I'd go Jones. Plenty of hand positions, and all 
of them are comfy.

Bob K. in Baltimore

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Deacon Patrick]

Thanks, Ron, Panog, et al! That makes sense and it also makes sense as 
another reason why I so love the Albastache/new Moustache. It's, for me, 
the best of both worlds.

Ron, yes -- not needing/and even better not liking cushion for bars or 
gloves is a sign of proper bars and use of core. Another tip that is hard 
without hip flexability is to initiate every pedal stroke from the core, 
extending down through the hips. If the saddle is set up right, this is 
natural, but the saddle can easily be too high.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 9:26:50 AM UTC-6, panog wrote:
>
> @Deacon Patrick
>
> Wind resistance.
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[reynoldslugs]

I have flat bars on several bikes, and I enjoy them.  I ride about 60% time 
with drops, about 40% on flat/"alternative" bars. My favorites *by far* are 
One-One Mary's.  The perfect fit for me is to install the upside down (See 
pics).

Many, many long rides (75k and more), mostly with plenty of climbing 
(several thousand vertical feet in most rides)  My totally subjective, non 
scientific, seat-of-the pants assessment: drops are faster and more 
efficient (for reasons others have outlined), but descents are more fun 
with the flat bars - it's easier to brake. 

I tend to ride the flat bars when I am feeling out of shape and my 
neck/back are sore and not happy to be in the drops. 

Here ya go, check em out - on a Bob Jackson road bike and Pereira custom 
road.  I also had Mary's on my Vanilla road for a while, and a Nitto bar my 
old Heron:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157643546486474

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157637495551626

Vanilla:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157648539227913

Heron (with Nitto bars)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157642068014924

Max Beach

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Eric Douglas]

Kent Peterson used to ride very long distances with a flat bar fixed / 
single speed.



On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 2:28:56 PM UTC-4, Marc Irwin wrote:
>
> I use the Bosco Bars from Rivendell on my touring bike and bike of choice 
> for 100k charity rides.  They not only provide a huge range of hand 
> positions but an even greater range of body postures.  I've never 
> experienced any pain or numbness in my hands since I started using them.
>
> Marc
>
> On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 12:16:50 PM UTC-4, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>>
>> Hi everybody, 
>>
>> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
>> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
>> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
>> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
>> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
>> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
>> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>>
>> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may 
>> not work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
>> perspectives!
>>
>> Peter 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Marc Irwin]

I use the Bosco Bars from Rivendell on my touring bike and bike of choice 
for 100k charity rides.  They not only provide a huge range of hand 
positions but an even greater range of body postures.  I've never 
experienced any pain or numbness in my hands since I started using them.

Marc

On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 12:16:50 PM UTC-4, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>
> Hi everybody, 
>
> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>
> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may not 
> work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
> perspectives!
>
> Peter 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Patrick Moore]

Not only wind resistance, but loss of power, since you need a certain
minimum angle between hips and torso to bring all possible muscles into
play.

But these are theoretical matters; you can certainly get aero and bent
forward with bars other than drop bars.

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 9:26 AM, panog  wrote:

> @Deacon Patrick
>
> Wind resistance. Wind resistance of an erect upper body, specially against
> a head-on wind, is a significant draw of power if one is to maintain a set
> speed. If this set speed is in the mid to upper teens, aerodynamic drag is
> a significant factor to overcome and becomes much more of an issue when
> one's speed is even higher. On a long trip, this extra power simulates
> constant climbing regardless if the land is flat. Anyone who has spent time
> cycling on coastal areas is well aware of this. The difference in speed is
> in mph not in the milliseconds I think you mentioned (at least to my
> experiences).
> Bending your elbows and tucking could be tolerated for a while but I dont
> find this to be a sustainable position because the pain on your lower back
> after 20 miles or so of maintaining this position will be significant in
> addition to pain on other sensitive parts of your body from the upward
> tilted saddle. Tucking is a temporary, intermittent measure, not the same
> thing as being stretched over the cockpit for long stretches at a time.
> Yes, people have been logging miles and miles on upright positions but
> they do that on low speeds.
>
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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[panog]

@Deacon Patrick

Wind resistance. Wind resistance of an erect upper body, specially against a 
head-on wind, is a significant draw of power if one is to maintain a set speed. 
If this set speed is in the mid to upper teens, aerodynamic drag is a 
significant factor to overcome and becomes much more of an issue when one's 
speed is even higher. On a long trip, this extra power simulates constant 
climbing regardless if the land is flat. Anyone who has spent time cycling on 
coastal areas is well aware of this. The difference in speed is in mph not in 
the milliseconds I think you mentioned (at least to my experiences).
Bending your elbows and tucking could be tolerated for a while but I dont find 
this to be a sustainable position because the pain on your lower back after 20 
miles or so of maintaining this position will be significant in addition to 
pain on other sensitive parts of your body from the upward tilted saddle. 
Tucking is a temporary, intermittent measure, not the same thing as being 
stretched over the cockpit for long stretches at a time.
Yes, people have been logging miles and miles on upright positions but they do 
that on low speeds.

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Ron Mc]

pss - if you do it right, you'll find yourself hating padded gloves.  I've 
ridden nothing but giro zero for 5+ years.  

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 9:10:46 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> Should also add saddle and knee position for the bike and riding position 
> are equally important.  Usually the more upright the ride, the farther back 
> and lower you need the saddle.  
>
> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 9:06:26 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> I'll throw in my ideas, Deac.  
>> Straight wrists, bent elbows, relaxed neck and shoulders are first 
>> priority.  
>> When you get to the contact on your hands, aside from not wanting to lean 
>> on them, you want to be able to control the bike with a natural relaxed 
>> rest, and of course be able to instantly grab it when needed for greater 
>> control.  
>> When I installed my Map bars, I already had the reach measured from the 
>> outside grip on my long-perfect Moustache cockpit.  
>> It took a couple of hundred miles to get the bar rotation at the stem 
>> correct for long rides, and first ride over 40 miles told me the drop that 
>> was needed.  
>>
>> No matter the length of ride, you should be balancing with your hands, 
>> but your support should be in your core muscles, and not in your neck and 
>> shoulders.  I know you know this, but for others, if you want to test it 
>> sometime, try the next climb leaning into your core muscles and not leaning 
>> on your arms.  You will find an instant burst of spin energy.  
>> My good riding buddy has been taking yoga classes, and went from an 
>> also-ran to the fastest in the group.  
>>
>> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 8:41:05 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>>
>>> Could you help me understand what you are saying here? For this to be 
>>> true requires an inefficiency to be introduced to the "comfy" handlebar 
>>> system that doesn't exist in the drop handlebar system. What is that 
>>> inefficiency? The only inefficiency I experience, and it is relatively 
>>> negligible outside a "hundredths of seconds matter racing scenario," is 
>>> wind resistance, which I can eliminate a large portion of by more deeply 
>>> bending my elbows when it is a large factor.
>>>
>>> With abandon,
>>> Patrick
>>>
>>> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 6:00:19 AM UTC-6, panog wrote:

 one minus and that is loss of speed for the same input of power, all 
 else equal
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Ron Mc]

Should also add saddle and knee position for the bike and riding position 
are equally important.  Usually the more upright the ride, the farther back 
and lower you need the saddle.  

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 9:06:26 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> I'll throw in my ideas, Deac.  
> Straight wrists, bent elbows, relaxed neck and shoulders are first 
> priority.  
> When you get to the contact on your hands, aside from not wanting to lean 
> on them, you want to be able to control the bike with a natural relaxed 
> rest, and of course be able to instantly grab it when needed for greater 
> control.  
> When I installed my Map bars, I already had the reach measured from the 
> outside grip on my long-perfect Moustache cockpit.  
> It took a couple of hundred miles to get the bar rotation at the stem 
> correct for long rides, and first ride over 40 miles told me the drop that 
> was needed.  
>
> No matter the length of ride, you should be balancing with your hands, but 
> your support should be in your core muscles, and not in your neck and 
> shoulders.  I know you know this, but for others, if you want to test it 
> sometime, try the next climb leaning into your core muscles and not leaning 
> on your arms.  You will find an instant burst of spin energy.  
> My good riding buddy has been taking yoga classes, and went from an 
> also-ran to the fastest in the group.  
>
> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 8:41:05 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> Could you help me understand what you are saying here? For this to be 
>> true requires an inefficiency to be introduced to the "comfy" handlebar 
>> system that doesn't exist in the drop handlebar system. What is that 
>> inefficiency? The only inefficiency I experience, and it is relatively 
>> negligible outside a "hundredths of seconds matter racing scenario," is 
>> wind resistance, which I can eliminate a large portion of by more deeply 
>> bending my elbows when it is a large factor.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 6:00:19 AM UTC-6, panog wrote:
>>>
>>> one minus and that is loss of speed for the same input of power, all 
>>> else equal
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Ron Mc]

I'll throw in my ideas, Deac.  
Straight wrists, bent elbows, relaxed neck and shoulders are first 
priority.  
When you get to the contact on your hands, aside from not wanting to lean 
on them, you want to be able to control the bike with a natural relaxed 
rest, and of course be able to instantly grab it when needed for greater 
control.  
When I installed my Map bars, I already had the reach measured from the 
outside grip on my long-perfect Moustache cockpit.  
It took a couple of hundred miles to get the bar rotation at the stem 
correct for long rides, and first ride over 40 miles told me the drop that 
was needed.  

No matter the length of ride, you should be balancing with your hands, but 
your support should be in your core muscles, and not in your neck and 
shoulders.  I know you know this, but for others, if you want to test it 
sometime, try the next climb leaning into your core muscles and not leaning 
on your arms.  You will find an instant burst of spin energy.  
My good riding buddy has been taking yoga classes, and went from an 
also-ran to the fastest in the group.  

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 8:41:05 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Could you help me understand what you are saying here? For this to be true 
> requires an inefficiency to be introduced to the "comfy" handlebar system 
> that doesn't exist in the drop handlebar system. What is that inefficiency? 
> The only inefficiency I experience, and it is relatively negligible outside 
> a "hundredths of seconds matter racing scenario," is wind resistance, which 
> I can eliminate a large portion of by more deeply bending my elbows when it 
> is a large factor.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 6:00:19 AM UTC-6, panog wrote:
>>
>> one minus and that is loss of speed for the same input of power, all else 
>> equal
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Deacon Patrick]

Could you help me understand what you are saying here? For this to be true 
requires an inefficiency to be introduced to the "comfy" handlebar system 
that doesn't exist in the drop handlebar system. What is that inefficiency? 
The only inefficiency I experience, and it is relatively negligible outside 
a "hundredths of seconds matter racing scenario," is wind resistance, which 
I can eliminate a large portion of by more deeply bending my elbows when it 
is a large factor.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 6:00:19 AM UTC-6, panog wrote:
>
> one minus and that is loss of speed for the same input of power, all else 
> equal

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Ron Mc]

Just at the title of the thread, I ride that far on both Moustache bars and 
Ahearne Map bars.  
Set up is everything  to your hands, wrists, shoulders and neck relaxed

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Deacon Patrick]

Hello Peter! Welcome! A few questions, as what you mention sounds like 
handlebars may be the symptom of a set of larger, more central issues.

1. Your reason for riding sounds like it is changing (to be with family). 
Have you thought about what that means for your style and approach to 
riding? You riding position? You will have more time to look at things. 
Overall comfort on the bike is paramount. There is a lot to learn when 
shifting from riding anaerobically (which it sounds like you've been doing 
if you've held your weight off your bars because you are always pushing 
THAT hard on the pedals) to aerobically. If you haven't, you may want to 
check out Maffetone's writing on exercising aerobically, and how to do 
that. You may find yourself riding farther, faster, and easier than before.
2. Have you read "Just Ride"? If not, get it and read it with your wife. If 
yes, get her her own copy and read it with your wife. Grin. 
3. Is your current bike's handlebar higher, equal to, or lower than your 
saddle height? If lower, seriously consider changing this, which may mean 
changing to a bike designed for it (and Rivendell is great for that!).
4. Consider completely shifting how you think about cycling. (AKA not as a 
form of exercise that measures your performance at all intervals, but as 
time together, as family, experiencing the wonderful world, and oh, yeah, 
we're doing it by bike, but that's hardly the point, except that it is what 
makes experiencing it THIS way possible.
5. Take off your cycling computer. Turn off your GPS, your phone, all that. 
Stop measuring rides. Use basic map and compass for navigation. See what 
happens. 

Now to your actual question. Yup. All the time. But entire setup of the 
bike matters, starting with the frame material and geometry, to pedals, 
stem, saddle, and yes, handlebars. I love my Albastache bars. I ride 7-8 
hours/day in the saddle frequently.

With abandon,
Patrick


On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 10:16:50 AM UTC-6, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>
> Hi everybody, 
>
> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>
> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may not 
> work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
> perspectives!
>
> Peter 
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[iamkeith]

I was going to say almost exactly what Garth said.  Having gone through the 
same circumstances and adjustment to riding realities as you are currently, 
and having done it for extended periods that allowed me time to experiment 
(my kids range from 25 to 10 years old),  I will say that the thing that 
made the most difference was setting my saddle much further back.  That 
necessitates trying shorter and higher stems until you find one that works 
most likely, but that's just the process and there's no way to shortcut it 
in my experience.

The hardest thing about the adjustment, which was just ridiculous in 
hindsight, was "accepting" what I thought at the time was a compromise or 
the I idea that I was being forced to compromise my rad, athletic 
lifestyle, or look like an old man.   But I think that once someone gets 
used to a more comfortable fit, it's pretty hard to see ever see anything 
else as "correct," no matter how hard you ride or how many miles you put 
in.  Racy riding positions just look naive to me, now.

As far as bars go, I'm one of the lucky ones who's managed to get along 
with the original moustache bar, and that's my first choice for anything up 
to about that distance.   Once I am no longer supporting my weight with my 
hands, it really just becomes  a matter of having a few different distinct 
hand positions available.  The albastache is probably a huge imprpvement, 
but I haven't quite gotten to try one yet.  Soon, though..

A final thought about long distance rides, that you probably know, is that 
the overall amount of time spent in the saddle really contributes to how 
you feel when its over.  If you can't go fast because of who you're riding 
with, and know that it's going to take an hour or two more than your'e used 
to, then get a good  leather saddle.  Why anyone would ever ride a saddle 
that makes you sore after a length of time, or that requires padded shorts, 
is another one of those things that I can no longer understand now that 
I've made the adjustment.

 
On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 12:01:43 PM UTC-6, Garth wrote:
>
>
>   It's not just a given bar, but also how your bike is setup with that 
> given bar.  I have ridden my Bomba near 3 hours and it's great, but it also 
> has everything to do with how the bike frame fits me and how it is setup 
> with that bar. It all starts with your weight distribution in the saddle 
> and how centered you feel even taking your hands off the bars. If this is 
> too far forward or backwards and/or the frame is not long enough, 
> compensating with different bars and stems will also be skewed. That's just 
> my take . 
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 12:16:50 PM UTC-4, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>>
>> Hi everybody, 
>>
>> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
>> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
>> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
>> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
>> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
>> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
>> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>>
>> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may 
>> not work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
>> perspectives!
>>
>> Peter 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[drew]

i have ridden 75+km with albatross, albastache and noodle bars. ive also 
done close to that distance on soma portolas. I think it's important to 
clarify if your hands are hurting, wrists are hurting, or if youre getting 
numbness.  then you can attempt to change heights, angles or bars to solve 
that problem.

for me, with albatross, my nerve would pinch and my hands would go numb 
from index finger to pinky after several hours. albastache would start to 
hurt my wrists, but my fingers never went fully numb. noodles never had any 
numbness. portolas are sorta uncomfortable, meaning i get antzy and move 
around the positions a lot, but my hands don't actually start hurting or 
going numb. 

ive sort of deduced that the cause of my pain is my hands splaying flat, at 
a 90 degree angle from my arms. for whatever reason, this position comes 
naturally on albatross and albastache bars and my attempts to correct it, 
while riding, are not very successful. the hoods of drop bars, make it 
impossible to splay your hands out, so this keeps my forearm, wrist and 
hand in a straight line. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Patrick Moore]

+ 1 for Garth's point. Setup is everything and, in my experience, if a bike
is properly set up, adding a 30 lb child in 20 lb trailer leaves the bike
as comfortable or as uncomfortable as riding it alone. The real question
seems to be, what sort of bar are you comfortable with, and how do you set
it up properly?

As for Ian's point, the bar I used on my child-pulling bike was, IIRC, an
old Giro d'Italia, 42 mm wide and deep drop. I had no problems with
leverage for torque (67" fixed gear), though of course this is a matter of
taste. (Aside: Pulling my daughter in a doublewide trailer -- for that's
what it was) against a strong southerly was an exercise at once in patience
and mettle!)

Back to setup: sometimes Peter Jon White's advice, to move the saddle
rearward so that your torso is held up more by your core than by your arms,
works well. http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm

On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Ian A  wrote:

> Peter,
>
> I ride through the winters here in northern Canada on an 80's mountain
> bike frame with drop bars. The bars are Nitto 177 Noodle in 46cm width. I
> have interrupter levers and drop levers, with bar end shifters. The point
> about winter riding is that sometimes I need a lot of leverage at the bars
> as they need to be wide enough for me to pull the front wheel out of soft
> snow or to brace against a rut.  I find myself using the interrupter levers
> a lot during the winter time both on road and on trails.
>
> I would imagine this set up would work equally well for towing a trailer
> and kid hauling etc. This allows for riding on the hoods, the ramps, the
> tops and in the case of climbing or headwind, in the drops.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Ian A]

I should also mention that I have the bars at saddle height and with a 
fairly long stem for a bit of extra reach. In this configuration they mimic 
straight bars on the tops, but much more comfortable (for me).

On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 12:15:25 PM UTC-6, Ian A wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> I ride through the winters here in northern Canada on an 80's mountain 
> bike frame with drop bars. The bars are Nitto 177 Noodle in 46cm width. I 
> have interrupter levers and drop levers, with bar end shifters. The point 
> about winter riding is that sometimes I need a lot of leverage at the bars 
> as they need to be wide enough for me to pull the front wheel out of soft 
> snow or to brace against a rut.  I find myself using the interrupter levers 
> a lot during the winter time both on road and on trails.
>
> I would imagine this set up would work equally well for towing a trailer 
> and kid hauling etc. This allows for riding on the hoods, the ramps, the 
> tops and in the case of climbing or headwind, in the drops.
>
> IanA
>
>
> On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 10:16:50 AM UTC-6, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>>
>> Hi everybody, 
>>
>> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
>> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
>> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
>> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
>> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
>> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
>> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>>
>> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may 
>> not work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
>> perspectives!
>>
>> Peter 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Philip Kim]

i enjoyed nitto RM-3 handlebars. dirt drop stem so they are nice and high 
and the drops are a tiny bit higher than the saddle. the furthest i've done 
with them was a camping overnight which was about 120 miles, which 
according to google is 193km, a bit trickier to set up and needs a period 
of adjustment/tilting to be comfortable.

i've also done 40 miles / 64km  with the nitto albatross bars. Bars not a 
problem, but wind can be quite a problem if you're doing open roads.

On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 12:16:50 PM UTC-4, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>
> Hi everybody, 
>
> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>
> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may not 
> work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
> perspectives!
>
> Peter 
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Ian A]

Peter,

I ride through the winters here in northern Canada on an 80's mountain bike 
frame with drop bars. The bars are Nitto 177 Noodle in 46cm width. I have 
interrupter levers and drop levers, with bar end shifters. The point about 
winter riding is that sometimes I need a lot of leverage at the bars as 
they need to be wide enough for me to pull the front wheel out of soft snow 
or to brace against a rut.  I find myself using the interrupter levers a 
lot during the winter time both on road and on trails.

I would imagine this set up would work equally well for towing a trailer 
and kid hauling etc. This allows for riding on the hoods, the ramps, the 
tops and in the case of climbing or headwind, in the drops.

IanA


On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 10:16:50 AM UTC-6, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>
> Hi everybody, 
>
> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>
> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may not 
> work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
> perspectives!
>
> Peter 
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Kieran J]

I rode about 65km last weekend on my Nitto Albastache-equipped Rambouillet. 
The ride was a mixture of pavement, hardpack gravel, and singletrack. Lots 
of climbing and descending. It was perfect.

KJ


On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 12:16:50 PM UTC-4, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>
> Hi everybody, 
>
> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>
> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may not 
> work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
> perspectives!
>
> Peter 
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Garth]

  It's not just a given bar, but also how your bike is setup with that 
given bar.  I have ridden my Bomba near 3 hours and it's great, but it also 
has everything to do with how the bike frame fits me and how it is setup 
with that bar. It all starts with your weight distribution in the saddle 
and how centered you feel even taking your hands off the bars. If this is 
too far forward or backwards and/or the frame is not long enough, 
compensating with different bars and stems will also be skewed. That's just 
my take . 




On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 12:16:50 PM UTC-4, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>
> Hi everybody, 
>
> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>
> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may not 
> work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
> perspectives!
>
> Peter 
>

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