[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[lum gim fong]

PS- previously had drops below saddle.

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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Lester Lammers]

I'm still dialing in a 55cm Cheviot. This helped be a lot and I am getting 
close. http://zedmartinez.com/2016/06/rivendell-clem-smith-jr/ *I* like the 
Bosco bars on it and have a 120 cm stem. I also have the stoker knobs but 
have not installed them yet. I may have to move the saddle back a bit.

On Sunday, December 10, 2017 at 4:30:59 PM UTC-5, Dave Small wrote:
>
> I'm happy to see this thread.  I've tried upright bars on a V-O 
> Polyvalent, then a V-O Campeur, and now a Rivendell Cheviot, and haven't 
> fallen in love with the set-up on any of them.  They're okay, but just 
> okay.  I don't find them as comfortable---as natural-feeling---as drops set 
> at saddle height.  The Polyvalent still has porteur bars, which serves it 
> well as an errand bike and grocery-getter, the Campeur I reverted back to 
> drops, and *I'm still evaluating the Cheviot.*  I want to give it a 
> long-enough trial to be fair to the concept, but I'm glad to know I'm not 
> the outlier I thought I was.  
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[lum gim fong]

Thanks, Jack.
Could you post a pic of your setup and what the bars look like as far as 
wrapping? 

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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[jack loudon]

Lum, my story is a counterpoint to yours:

After years of riding drop bars, I developed some neck problems which made 
riding drop bars uncomfortable. After a long trial-and-error process with 
handlebars and stems, I now ride Albatross bars exclusively. My neck is 
comfortable, and I also have less hand discomfort because of less weight on 
my hands.  My butt pain initially increased, which led to another 
trial-and-error process on saddle type and position.  I won't dwell on my 
final saddle choice since this is very subjective, but it was worth the 
trial period, because now both my butt and neck are happy.  With my comfort 
finally dialed in, the advantages definitely outweigh the drawbacks.  I 
ride 4000+ miles/year and routinely go much longer than 40 miles.  My hands 
are on the curved forward portion of the bars most of the time, but I 
really appreciate the rearward extensions when I need them.  I may be a bit 
slower riding upright, but the difference is small, and I can ride longer 
distances without discomfort.  My wife, who also rode drop bars for years, 
now will only ride my spare bike with Albatross bars.  

I'm not to deter anybody from riding drop bars if that's their preference, 
but I see many (actually most) drop-bar riders with their hands on the 
hoods or ramps and arms straight, apparently trying to get as upright as 
possible.  I think a lot of these people may come to prefer Albatross bars, 
though it could take some experimentation in order to fine-tune the fit. 

Jack,
Seattle



On Saturday, December 9, 2017 at 7:23:46 AM UTC-8, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> So I converted the Bleriot to upright so I could ride wifespeeds without 
> hand discomfort  that comes with riding that slow for an entire ride on 
> drops. 
>
>  What I have found, in riding upright,  is that the discomfort of the 
> hands is reduced 75% and the butt discomfort 100% increase ( which was 
> nonexistent when I rode with drops) makes me want to just go back to drops. 
> I am more comfortable riding at wifespeed (and all other speeds) with 
> drops, turns out. No matter the bar heights or saddles.
>
> Also, headwinds are noticably more noticeable and wintry blasts harder to 
> endure while upright.
>
> I don't think I have never heard of someone on this list, or from Walnut 
> Creek finding uprighting to be less comfortable than dropsing. So I thought 
> I'd include it as a datapoint here.
>
> Has anyone here also found upriding to not be their cup of tea?
>
> I will say though that upriding provides fantastic views.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Addison Wilhite]

I hadn't really thought much about this until this thread came along but it
occurs to me that I've had my Allrounder in all sorts of configurations
with drops and mustache bars, but about two years ago I converted it to a
more upright cruiser albatross with racks to transport stuff thinking it
would be more of an errand bike for groceries and such.  My riding time on
that bike has dropped drastically.  I think that's telling me I need to go
back to an earlier cockpit.  It seems like in retrospect the most fun
builds were fattish tires with mustache bars but the more practical option
was drops and more touring oriented.  To see those different builds you can
click here:

http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/2013/01/rivendell-allrounder-jack-of-all.html

Best,


Addison Wilhite, M.A.

Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 

*“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*

Educator: Professional Portfolio 

Blogger: Reno Rambler 


On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 12:38 AM, Corwin  wrote:

> I also concur - upright is less desirable than drops. I have two bikes
> with drop bars and two bikes with "original" mustache bars. On one of those
> bikes - a tandem - my wife rides stoker with albatross and I captain with
> mustache. I get minimal power from my legs in an upright posture. Just does
> not work for me. So much so that on my Rivendell Custom, I added the
> requirement that the bars be 3 cm below the saddle. When I test rode the
> bike, we started with the bars and saddle level. Kept removing spacers from
> the stem till we got the bars down to just above the headset.
>
> The threadless fork steerer still sticks out about 3/4 inch above the stem.
>
> I get incredible power from this riding position.
>
> Namaste,
>
>
> Corwin
>
> On Saturday, December 9, 2017 at 7:23:46 AM UTC-8, lum gim fong wrote:
>
>> So I converted the Bleriot to upright so I could ride wifespeeds without
>> hand discomfort  that comes with riding that slow for an entire ride on
>> drops.
>>
>>  What I have found, in riding upright,  is that the discomfort of the
>> hands is reduced 75% and the butt discomfort 100% increase ( which was
>> nonexistent when I rode with drops) makes me want to just go back to drops.
>> I am more comfortable riding at wifespeed (and all other speeds) with
>> drops, turns out. No matter the bar heights or saddles.
>>
>> Also, headwinds are noticably more noticeable and wintry blasts harder to
>> endure while upright.
>>
>> I don't think I have never heard of someone on this list, or from Walnut
>> Creek finding uprighting to be less comfortable than dropsing. So I thought
>> I'd include it as a datapoint here.
>>
>> Has anyone here also found upriding to not be their cup of tea?
>>
>> I will say though that upriding provides fantastic views.
>>
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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Corwin]

I also concur - upright is less desirable than drops. I have two bikes with 
drop bars and two bikes with "original" mustache bars. On one of those 
bikes - a tandem - my wife rides stoker with albatross and I captain with 
mustache. I get minimal power from my legs in an upright posture. Just does 
not work for me. So much so that on my Rivendell Custom, I added the 
requirement that the bars be 3 cm below the saddle. When I test rode the 
bike, we started with the bars and saddle level. Kept removing spacers from 
the stem till we got the bars down to just above the headset.

The threadless fork steerer still sticks out about 3/4 inch above the stem.

I get incredible power from this riding position.

Namaste,


Corwin

On Saturday, December 9, 2017 at 7:23:46 AM UTC-8, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> So I converted the Bleriot to upright so I could ride wifespeeds without 
> hand discomfort  that comes with riding that slow for an entire ride on 
> drops. 
>
>  What I have found, in riding upright,  is that the discomfort of the 
> hands is reduced 75% and the butt discomfort 100% increase ( which was 
> nonexistent when I rode with drops) makes me want to just go back to drops. 
> I am more comfortable riding at wifespeed (and all other speeds) with 
> drops, turns out. No matter the bar heights or saddles.
>
> Also, headwinds are noticably more noticeable and wintry blasts harder to 
> endure while upright.
>
> I don't think I have never heard of someone on this list, or from Walnut 
> Creek finding uprighting to be less comfortable than dropsing. So I thought 
> I'd include it as a datapoint here.
>
> Has anyone here also found upriding to not be their cup of tea?
>
> I will say though that upriding provides fantastic views.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Grant @ Rivendell]

My eye-opening into the possibilities of uprights, and swept-back ones at 
that, came when I first talked to Freddie Hoffman, who rode 50,000 miles a 
year all thru the eighties on sweptback uprights (sbu?). A similar 
eye-opening came 21 years ago, when a customer who lives in Toronto, Jim 
Skinner, got a custom early on, and mentioned that he rode 10,000 miles a 
year in Birkenstocks--after years of normal cycling shoes.   It still comes 
down to different strokes--that's always the final word on anything like 
this. I can say with a huge degree of certainty that thousands of our 
customers have rediscovered riding's fun again after switching to SBU, but 
those are riders who weren't digging the drops. As long as the drops are in 
the right vertical spot, they'll be fine--they'll just be a curvy ram's 
horn bar in the right place for you. Most people who walk and run 
ergonomically correct erect and even sit tall  find a more upright pedaling 
position comfortable, but others like a lean. Bikes are so neat because you 
can customize your own. 

On Saturday, December 9, 2017 at 7:23:46 AM UTC-8, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> So I converted the Bleriot to upright so I could ride wifespeeds without 
> hand discomfort  that comes with riding that slow for an entire ride on 
> drops. 
>
>  What I have found, in riding upright,  is that the discomfort of the 
> hands is reduced 75% and the butt discomfort 100% increase ( which was 
> nonexistent when I rode with drops) makes me want to just go back to drops. 
> I am more comfortable riding at wifespeed (and all other speeds) with 
> drops, turns out. No matter the bar heights or saddles.
>
> Also, headwinds are noticably more noticeable and wintry blasts harder to 
> endure while upright.
>
> I don't think I have never heard of someone on this list, or from Walnut 
> Creek finding uprighting to be less comfortable than dropsing. So I thought 
> I'd include it as a datapoint here.
>
> Has anyone here also found upriding to not be their cup of tea?
>
> I will say though that upriding provides fantastic views.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Nick Payne]

Over the past few years I've converted all my wife's bikes to flat bars. 
These days she rides about 15000km/year, and she used to race on drop bars, 
but as someone with pretty small hands she prefers the shifting and braking 
available with flat bar levers and shifters. She quite happily rides 200km 
Audax events without complaining about either backside or hands. Here's one 
of her bikes - photo taken while I was building it up. BBB grips and 
barends and Sella Italia Ldy saddles are her favourites. 



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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[PG]

I agree completely with the OP.  

Noodles (or similar) drops allow me to adjust according to comfort and 
wind...which is the point of drop bars in the first place.

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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Dave Small]

I'm happy to see this thread.  I've tried upright bars on a V-O Polyvalent, 
then a V-O Campeur, and now a Rivendell Cheviot, and haven't fallen in love 
with the set-up on any of them.  They're okay, but just okay.  I don't find 
them as comfortable---as natural-feeling---as drops set at saddle height. 
 The Polyvalent still has porteur bars, which serves it well as an errand 
bike and grocery-getter, the Campeur I reverted back to drops, and I'm 
still evaluating the Cheviot.  I want to give it a long-enough trial to be 
fair to the concept, but I'm glad to know I'm not the outlier I thought I 
was.  


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Re: [RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Lee Legrand]

Hi Lum,

I cannot find the earlier discussion I had mentioned this but have you
tried these bars on a bicycle?  They are mustache bars with a smaller
drop.  I believe SOMAFAB has them as a 3 speed mustache bar.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pereiracycles/3983134786/

http://store.somafab.com/soma3speedbar.html

Just a suggestion but if you going towards drops again.  That will be the
ends of me saying anything.

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 8:06 PM, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> I'm not sure that my riding position qualifies as "upright" as being
> discussed in this thread but all of my bikes end up with the handlebars
> 7-8cm higher than my saddle and I consider my position to be upright.
>  After years of discomfort, no matter what I tried, I accidently discovered
> that my reach to the bar has to be much longer than I thought.   I'm 5'11"
> and I'm riding a bike with a 61cm ETT, a 17 degree 110mm stem and that is
> the only combo that has given me any kind of comfort.  All of my rides are
> short but I experienced pain almost immediately with a shorter reach.
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I'm not sure that my riding position qualifies as "upright" as being 
discussed in this thread but all of my bikes end up with the handlebars 
7-8cm higher than my saddle and I consider my position to be upright.  
 After years of discomfort, no matter what I tried, I accidently discovered 
that my reach to the bar has to be much longer than I thought.   I'm 5'11" 
and I'm riding a bike with a 61cm ETT, a 17 degree 110mm stem and that is 
the only combo that has given me any kind of comfort.  All of my rides are 
short but I experienced pain almost immediately with a shorter reach. 






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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[lum gim fong]

Garth:
The reason for the short stems on uprights  is so I can sit bolt upright 
because leaning forward causes the pain on the sweep back areas of the 
upright bars.
I am fine leaning  on the tops of the Albatrii and Boscos, just like drops 
tops at any height. Its the swept back parts of bars that my hands don't 
like - (really at any height/distance).

The reason for short stems on drops for me is because I have a really short 
reach. My current setups on my Rambouillet and Bleriot and the Sam (which I 
don't own anymore) give me pain free, comfortable centuries, where i felt 
better at the end of the rides than before I got on the bike. So the 
current drop setups work great. This is for riding at my own paces 
(13-16mph). Its the slow 10mph pace rides with the wife that the hands 
complain. I guess some of the weight shifts from the pedals to the hands 
since I barely pedal and seem to mostly coast when I ride with her.

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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Brian Campbell]

Count me as one who does not like upright bars as well. I have tried 
(Albatross, Mustache, MAP/Aherne, Jithensa, Riv Bull Moose, Nitto Straight 
bars, Nitto Risers) I get hand/palm pain very quickly. I use 46cm noodles, 
have been on the bike as long as 12hrs in one shot and had zero hand pain. 
I think you are correct in understanding the balance/distribution of weight.

 I have just accepted that drops are my bar of choice and moved on.

On Saturday, December 9, 2017 at 10:23:46 AM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> So I converted the Bleriot to upright so I could ride wifespeeds without 
> hand discomfort  that comes with riding that slow for an entire ride on 
> drops. 
>
>  What I have found, in riding upright,  is that the discomfort of the 
> hands is reduced 75% and the butt discomfort 100% increase ( which was 
> nonexistent when I rode with drops) makes me want to just go back to drops. 
> I am more comfortable riding at wifespeed (and all other speeds) with 
> drops, turns out. No matter the bar heights or saddles.
>
> Also, headwinds are noticably more noticeable and wintry blasts harder to 
> endure while upright.
>
> I don't think I have never heard of someone on this list, or from Walnut 
> Creek finding uprighting to be less comfortable than dropsing. So I thought 
> I'd include it as a datapoint here.
>
> Has anyone here also found upriding to not be their cup of tea?
>
> I will say though that upriding provides fantastic views.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Patrick Moore]

Lum: I feel your pain. At least, I feel my pain, which seems to be similar
to yours. I've owned at least 6 original design Moustache bars, and I've
tried them on at least 8 bikes over the years; and while I really, really
like the idea, I've never been able to get them nearly as comfortable as
drop bars.

Right now, I have these original issue M bars on the Hon Solo. The bar
clamp on the HS is right at the very tippy top of the bar mast; I found
that M bars were uncomfortable, but more comfortable than the Ritchey (?)
cowhorns they replace; and I usually don't ride the HS for more than 10-12
miles at a time.

A period of time passed ...

Joe B of this list sold me a doohickey that clamps into the bar mast of
bikes like the HS, but pushes the bar out by 2". I added it, and what do
you know: same height, 2" more reach = more comfortable. But the HS bar
mast clamp doesn't clamp tight enough to keep this thing from rotating; so
I let it rotate all the way down, so that the M bar is now ~ 2" lower and
perhaps 1" further forward than when perched at the top of the mast.

Wala! Even more comfortable -- though still short term comfort. But less
hand pressure and pain than when considerably higher and closer in.

I've not tried the Albastache; perhaps one day I will.

I haven't installed a drop bar on the HS because the M bar with its more
nearly 2 dimensional shape folds tighter than the bike would with a drop
bar.

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 2:09 PM, lum gim fong  wrote:

> Thanks for the reponses and input.
>
> I have tried upright twice now. Once with Albas on an oversized Sam, and
> once with Boscos on a 53 Bleriot, and Albas on a 55 Bleriot. I lasted a
> month with the Albas/Sam. I have had the Bleriot Bosco-ed for the better
> part of a year now. Hi/lowbars/near/Flyer/B67, etc. been tried.
> I have even tried mustache bars but they are a torture device to me. Hand
> pain in the first half mile of riding, inescapable for the rest of the ride
> since the same part of the hand (for me) is contacted in all bar positions
> on mustaches, except for the limited tops. So the torture never lets up.
> I guess I have sensitive hands.
> One guy told me once that some people may have their hand nerves running
> closer to the surface of their hands than others. This could be true as I
> have been a musician my whole life and perhaps this develops nerve growth
> in that direction. Just speculation, of course.
>
> Seems like drop bars are the most comfortable for me. I am happy with them.
> I keep them at ~1.3 cm below saddle. I have always been comfy on drops for
> all my riding, rec and centuries, commuting, etc. It is just the 10mph
> wife-rides pace that my hands start to complain.
>
> Maybe I will place drops on the Bleriot again, but set them as high as
> poss for the bike-wifery, and see if that relieves the hand pressure when
> riding slowly.
> I have tried hi drops on my own before and felt no diffs in hand pressure.
>
> I agree that hand pressure is probably more related to where the weight is
> distributed on a bike, a la PJW fit article.
>
> One day this will no longer be an issue because *she says that for her
> next bike she wants an electric bike!*
> Then I will be on the forum complaining that I can't get my bike up to her
> 20mph electric bike pace!!! Ha ha!!
>
>
>
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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Garth]

Just from your description of the sensations I can tell this is fitting 
issue, not necessarily a bar issue.  It's all too easy and understandable 
to blame the bars themselves for a fitting and or frame/stem issue.  From 
the pics Lum, the Albatross bars are wa high, too high for you. The 
reach also is way overly short, it appears as though you used the same stem 
as for the drops.  A longer stem would help immensely .  The seat also may 
need a slight angle adjustment. 

Basically, an "upright" position can mean many things to many people. It's 
way overgeneralized and pigeonholed by this group and people in general. If 
the bike frame and stem choice allow for it, you can get stretched out on 
an Albatross or Albastache or Choco or whatever. You really have to know 
yourself and be willing to abandon preconceived notions if necessary, or 
not !  !

>

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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[lum gim fong]

Thanks for the reponses and input.

I have tried upright twice now. Once with Albas on an oversized Sam, and 
once with Boscos on a 53 Bleriot, and Albas on a 55 Bleriot. I lasted a 
month with the Albas/Sam. I have had the Bleriot Bosco-ed for the better 
part of a year now. Hi/lowbars/near/Flyer/B67, etc. been tried.
I have even tried mustache bars but they are a torture device to me. Hand 
pain in the first half mile of riding, inescapable for the rest of the ride 
since the same part of the hand (for me) is contacted in all bar positions 
on mustaches, except for the limited tops. So the torture never lets up.
I guess I have sensitive hands.
One guy told me once that some people may have their hand nerves running 
closer to the surface of their hands than others. This could be true as I 
have been a musician my whole life and perhaps this develops nerve growth 
in that direction. Just speculation, of course.

Seems like drop bars are the most comfortable for me. I am happy with them.
I keep them at ~1.3 cm below saddle. I have always been comfy on drops for 
all my riding, rec and centuries, commuting, etc. It is just the 10mph 
wife-rides pace that my hands start to complain.

Maybe I will place drops on the Bleriot again, but set them as high as poss 
for the bike-wifery, and see if that relieves the hand pressure when riding 
slowly.
I have tried hi drops on my own before and felt no diffs in hand pressure.

I agree that hand pressure is probably more related to where the weight is 
distributed on a bike, a la PJW fit article.

One day this will no longer be an issue because *she says that for her next 
bike she wants an electric bike!*
Then I will be on the forum complaining that I can't get my bike up to her 
20mph electric bike pace!!! Ha ha!!



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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Bob B]

I always ride upright and I've found that if the saddle height is about 
even with the grips (or grips just a smidge higher), that is a sweet spot, 
assuming the grips are comfy and the saddle's broken in.

Sometimes you see these setups depicted on the riv website/blug with the 
stem at max height, much above the saddle height. Ive tried that but, for 
long-distance, the butt starts to hurt.

So you could try again, lowering the stem so that grips are at a height 
that encourages a better butt-hands pressure distribution?

Bob B
Brooklyn, NY

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