Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[Eric Marth]

Just wanted to stop by and say thanks to JJ for the general rapid rise 
write-up. I've already tested and made up my mind for myself but I think 
his post from Mar 20, 2024, 1:14:26 PM really does a nice job of breaking 
things down related to how these mechs work, how they might work for you, 
as well as some of the reasons we see such big differences in costs on the 
used market.

JJ knows! He's certainly owned and sold more RR derailers than any other 
forum member (that I'm aware of). 

On Thursday, March 21, 2024 at 2:04:59 PM UTC-4 chintan...@gmail.com wrote:

> Thanks all for your clarifications! Agree with the comments regarding the 
> reliability of shimano components - I've usually had little reason to move 
> on from my Altus/Acera RD except durability of the pulleys on the Acera 
> perhaps. Shifted very well every time.
>
> I have received a nice RD from a rbw member - thank you :)
> chintan
>
> On Wed, 20 Mar 2024 at 23:04, Richard Rose  wrote:
>
>> My only rapid rise - a beautiful Nexave courtesy of JJ - has made me a 
>> big fan. In particular, I am quite happy with my non rapid rise Deore unit 
>> on my Clem which gets lots of flatlander miles. But my Gus gets the 
>> singletrack hills. This is where the Nexave has one huge benefit. It takes 
>> zero effort to shift to an easier gear when I need it most. 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Mar 20, 2024, at 1:14 PM, J J  wrote:
>>
>> I'm 100 percent with Jock on this issue. It's hard to take the Disraeli 
>> Gears comments about the XT RD-M760 seriously, dripping as they are with 
>> dismissiveness. We've had long threads on this forum about low normal 
>> derailleurs before, and I still find the myths that circulate about Rapid 
>> Rise perplexing. For example, the myths that Rapid Rise performs "worse" 
>> than high normal, or it's harder to set up or index, or that (per the 
>> Disraeli Gears comments) it's somehow more prone to rust than other 
>> derailleurs in the same general series, like the XT M750,  built with the 
>> same material.
>>
>> The reason I favor RR comes down to a shifting logic that works better 
>> for my brain and motor coordination than high normal. I shift in friction 
>> mode on all my bikes, which all have low normal rear ders. I like that I 
>> can move both levers in the same direction to get to higher/harder or 
>> lower/easier gears instead of moving oppositely. That's about it. I do 
>> think there are a few other benefits of RR: if my shift cable broke, the RR 
>> spring will push the derailleur to the easiest gear instead of the hardest, 
>> thus avoiding a potential high-gear slog home. But how often do cables 
>> break? RR also seems to shift more easily to lower/easier gears under load. 
>> But maybe this is a misattribution. Maybe I've simply gotten better about 
>> timing my shifts and floating the pedals. 
>>
>> It does not mean that I have *trouble* with high normal shifting! To the 
>> contrary, high normal is just fine. Low normal is just a preference. What 
>> works great for Rapid Rise adherents won't necessarily work great for 
>> anyone else. Once you try RR, the possible outcomes will be that you like 
>> it, you hate it, or that you're more or less neutral about it. (You will 
>> also realize that one way or another, it is not earth shattering or life 
>> changing, nor will it make you a more skilled and faster rider). 
>>
>> Any shifts I have missed or bungled are totally attributable to user 
>> error, to my timing or judgement, and not anything inherent to a high 
>> normal vs. low normal modality.
>>
>> Finally, all Rapid Rise rear ders I have tried, from the humble end to 
>> the fancy XTRs, work beautifully. The differences between them are 
>> refinement level, materials, weight, looks, aesthetics, and so on, just 
>> like every other Shimano product categories that are stratified by price 
>> point.
>>
>> On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 10:38:41 PM UTC-4 John Dewey wrote:
>>
>>> @ http://disraeligears.co.uk/…well I suppose if you pedal around in a 
>>> saltwater bath, like some of those unfortunate souls…that might happen. 
>>>
>>> For those us who ride under sunny skies now and again—and take care of 
>>> stuff properly—I can tell you that after years and years of working those 
>>> mechs, never a mixed-up shift that wasn’t my doing and not even a 
>>> microscopic spot of corrosion to be found anywhere. 
>>>
>>> Total hooey I say. And I’ve got the goods to prove it 浪
>>>
>>> Jock
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 7:15 PM Chintan Jadwani  
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Another question - from a couple of reviews here people seem 
 indifference of the performance between low vs high normal. But online 
 elsewhwre, there seems to be strong dislike for low normal - why is that? 

 For example - disraeligears.co.uk writes for the xt m760

 "The Shimano Deore XT (M760) is my absolutely least favourite Deore XT 
 variant. It has cheap (rust prone) detailing, unnecessary 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[Chintan Jadwani]

Thanks all for your clarifications! Agree with the comments regarding the
reliability of shimano components - I've usually had little reason to move
on from my Altus/Acera RD except durability of the pulleys on the Acera
perhaps. Shifted very well every time.

I have received a nice RD from a rbw member - thank you :)
chintan

On Wed, 20 Mar 2024 at 23:04, Richard Rose  wrote:

> My only rapid rise - a beautiful Nexave courtesy of JJ - has made me a big
> fan. In particular, I am quite happy with my non rapid rise Deore unit on
> my Clem which gets lots of flatlander miles. But my Gus gets the
> singletrack hills. This is where the Nexave has one huge benefit. It takes
> zero effort to shift to an easier gear when I need it most.
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 20, 2024, at 1:14 PM, J J  wrote:
>
> I'm 100 percent with Jock on this issue. It's hard to take the Disraeli
> Gears comments about the XT RD-M760 seriously, dripping as they are with
> dismissiveness. We've had long threads on this forum about low normal
> derailleurs before, and I still find the myths that circulate about Rapid
> Rise perplexing. For example, the myths that Rapid Rise performs "worse"
> than high normal, or it's harder to set up or index, or that (per the
> Disraeli Gears comments) it's somehow more prone to rust than other
> derailleurs in the same general series, like the XT M750,  built with the
> same material.
>
> The reason I favor RR comes down to a shifting logic that works better for
> my brain and motor coordination than high normal. I shift in friction mode
> on all my bikes, which all have low normal rear ders. I like that I can
> move both levers in the same direction to get to higher/harder or
> lower/easier gears instead of moving oppositely. That's about it. I do
> think there are a few other benefits of RR: if my shift cable broke, the RR
> spring will push the derailleur to the easiest gear instead of the hardest,
> thus avoiding a potential high-gear slog home. But how often do cables
> break? RR also seems to shift more easily to lower/easier gears under load.
> But maybe this is a misattribution. Maybe I've simply gotten better about
> timing my shifts and floating the pedals.
>
> It does not mean that I have *trouble* with high normal shifting! To the
> contrary, high normal is just fine. Low normal is just a preference. What
> works great for Rapid Rise adherents won't necessarily work great for
> anyone else. Once you try RR, the possible outcomes will be that you like
> it, you hate it, or that you're more or less neutral about it. (You will
> also realize that one way or another, it is not earth shattering or life
> changing, nor will it make you a more skilled and faster rider).
>
> Any shifts I have missed or bungled are totally attributable to user
> error, to my timing or judgement, and not anything inherent to a high
> normal vs. low normal modality.
>
> Finally, all Rapid Rise rear ders I have tried, from the humble end to the
> fancy XTRs, work beautifully. The differences between them are refinement
> level, materials, weight, looks, aesthetics, and so on, just like every
> other Shimano product categories that are stratified by price point.
>
> On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 10:38:41 PM UTC-4 John Dewey wrote:
>
>> @ http://disraeligears.co.uk/…well I suppose if you pedal around in a
>> saltwater bath, like some of those unfortunate souls…that might happen.
>>
>> For those us who ride under sunny skies now and again—and take care of
>> stuff properly—I can tell you that after years and years of working those
>> mechs, never a mixed-up shift that wasn’t my doing and not even a
>> microscopic spot of corrosion to be found anywhere.
>>
>> Total hooey I say. And I’ve got the goods to prove it 浪
>>
>> Jock
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 7:15 PM Chintan Jadwani 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Another question - from a couple of reviews here people seem
>>> indifference of the performance between low vs high normal. But online
>>> elsewhwre, there seems to be strong dislike for low normal - why is that?
>>>
>>> For example - disraeligears.co.uk writes for the xt m760
>>>
>>> "The Shimano Deore XT (M760) is my absolutely least favourite Deore XT
>>> variant. It has cheap (rust prone) detailing, unnecessary styling and,
>>> worst of all, it’s low normal. not your obvious choice for slogging your
>>> way through the mud and grime of a British winter. Bring back stainless
>>> steel small parts, polished finishes and top normal operating logic."
>>>
>>> On Wed, 20 Mar, 2024, 5:07 am John Dewey,  wrote:
>>>
 And the Rivendell ‘fan base’ is a subset of another and another so as
 to be mostly inconsequential. We do count, however and a few brave souls do
 sort-of OK serving us.

 Nevertheless, most of us (even here in RBW’s backyard) seldom cross
 paths with cyclists with whom we have anything in common other than two
 wheels. We’re already a bit abnormal and ‘low-normal’ makes us even more

Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[Richard Rose]

My only rapid rise - a beautiful Nexave courtesy of JJ - has made me a big fan. In particular, I am quite happy with my non rapid rise Deore unit on my Clem which gets lots of flatlander miles. But my Gus gets the singletrack hills. This is where the Nexave has one huge benefit. It takes zero effort to shift to an easier gear when I need it most. Sent from my iPhoneOn Mar 20, 2024, at 1:14 PM, J J  wrote:I'm 100 percent with Jock on this issue. It's hard to take the Disraeli Gears comments about the XT RD-M760 seriously, dripping as they are with dismissiveness. We've had long threads on this forum about low normal derailleurs before, and I still find the myths that circulate about Rapid Rise perplexing. For example, the myths that Rapid Rise performs "worse" than high normal, or it's harder to set up or index, or that (per the Disraeli Gears comments) it's somehow more prone to rust than other derailleurs in the same general series, like the XT M750,  built with the same material.The reason I favor RR comes down to a shifting logic that works better for my brain and motor coordination than high normal. I shift in friction mode on all my bikes, which all have low normal rear ders. I like that I can move both levers in the same direction to get to higher/harder or lower/easier gears instead of moving oppositely. That's about it. I do think there are a few other benefits of RR: if my shift cable broke, the RR spring will push the derailleur to the easiest gear instead of the hardest, thus avoiding a potential high-gear slog home. But how often do cables break? RR also seems to shift more easily to lower/easier gears under load. But maybe this is a misattribution. Maybe I've simply gotten better about timing my shifts and floating the pedals. It does not mean that I have trouble with high normal shifting! To the contrary, high normal is just fine. Low normal is just a preference. What works great for Rapid Rise adherents won't necessarily work great for anyone else. Once you try RR, the possible outcomes will be that you like it, you hate it, or that you're more or less neutral about it. (You will also realize that one way or another, it is not earth shattering or life changing, nor will it make you a more skilled and faster rider). Any shifts I have missed or bungled are totally attributable to user error, to my timing or judgement, and not anything inherent to a high normal vs. low normal modality.Finally, all Rapid Rise rear ders I have tried, from the humble end to the fancy XTRs, work beautifully. The differences between them are refinement level, materials, weight, looks, aesthetics, and so on, just like every other Shimano product categories that are stratified by price point.On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 10:38:41 PM UTC-4 John Dewey wrote:@ http://disraeligears.co.uk/…well I suppose if you pedal around in a saltwater bath, like some of those unfortunate souls…that might happen. For those us who ride under sunny skies now and again—and take care of stuff properly—I can tell you that after years and years of working those mechs, never a mixed-up shift that wasn’t my doing and not even a microscopic spot of corrosion to be found anywhere. Total hooey I say. And I’ve got the goods to prove it 浪JockOn Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 7:15 PM Chintan Jadwani  wrote:Another question - from a couple of reviews here people seem indifference of the performance between low vs high normal. But online elsewhwre, there seems to be strong dislike for low normal - why is that? For example - disraeligears.co.uk writes for the xt m760"The Shimano Deore XT (M760) is my absolutely least favourite Deore XT variant. It has cheap (rust prone) detailing, unnecessary styling and, worst of all, it’s low normal. not your obvious choice for slogging your way through the mud and grime of a British winter. Bring back stainless steel small parts, polished finishes and top normal operating logic."On Wed, 20 Mar, 2024, 5:07 am John Dewey,  wrote:And the Rivendell ‘fan base’ is a subset of another and another so as to be mostly inconsequential. We do count, however and a few brave souls do sort-of OK serving us. Nevertheless, most of us (even here in RBW’s backyard) seldom cross paths with cyclists with whom we have anything in common other than two wheels. We’re already a bit abnormal and ‘low-normal’ makes us even more so. Jock (and his fleet of abnormal low-normals)On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 9:41 AM Johnny Alien  wrote:I have to think that most of the market for these is from the Rivendell fan base. I don't hear any other bike group talking about them at all. Because of that I kind of think IF Riv ends up bringing their new one to market the used scene will come WAY down. Just a theory. I really hope that I can test the theory (because they successfully release it)On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 12:14:10 PM UTC-4 chintan...@gmail.com wrote:Thank you all for the replies :) Now that I 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[J J]

I'm 100 percent with Jock on this issue. It's hard to take the Disraeli 
Gears comments about the XT RD-M760 seriously, dripping as they are with 
dismissiveness. We've had long threads on this forum about low normal 
derailleurs before, and I still find the myths that circulate about Rapid 
Rise perplexing. For example, the myths that Rapid Rise performs "worse" 
than high normal, or it's harder to set up or index, or that (per the 
Disraeli Gears comments) it's somehow more prone to rust than other 
derailleurs in the same general series, like the XT M750,  built with the 
same material.

The reason I favor RR comes down to a shifting logic that works better for 
my brain and motor coordination than high normal. I shift in friction mode 
on all my bikes, which all have low normal rear ders. I like that I can 
move both levers in the same direction to get to higher/harder or 
lower/easier gears instead of moving oppositely. That's about it. I do 
think there are a few other benefits of RR: if my shift cable broke, the RR 
spring will push the derailleur to the easiest gear instead of the hardest, 
thus avoiding a potential high-gear slog home. But how often do cables 
break? RR also seems to shift more easily to lower/easier gears under load. 
But maybe this is a misattribution. Maybe I've simply gotten better about 
timing my shifts and floating the pedals. 

It does not mean that I have *trouble* with high normal shifting! To the 
contrary, high normal is just fine. Low normal is just a preference. What 
works great for Rapid Rise adherents won't necessarily work great for 
anyone else. Once you try RR, the possible outcomes will be that you like 
it, you hate it, or that you're more or less neutral about it. (You will 
also realize that one way or another, it is not earth shattering or life 
changing, nor will it make you a more skilled and faster rider). 

Any shifts I have missed or bungled are totally attributable to user error, 
to my timing or judgement, and not anything inherent to a high normal vs. 
low normal modality.

Finally, all Rapid Rise rear ders I have tried, from the humble end to the 
fancy XTRs, work beautifully. The differences between them are refinement 
level, materials, weight, looks, aesthetics, and so on, just like every 
other Shimano product categories that are stratified by price point.

On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 10:38:41 PM UTC-4 John Dewey wrote:

> @ http://disraeligears.co.uk/…well I suppose if you pedal around in a 
> saltwater bath, like some of those unfortunate souls…that might happen. 
>
> For those us who ride under sunny skies now and again—and take care of 
> stuff properly—I can tell you that after years and years of working those 
> mechs, never a mixed-up shift that wasn’t my doing and not even a 
> microscopic spot of corrosion to be found anywhere. 
>
> Total hooey I say. And I’ve got the goods to prove it 浪
>
> Jock
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 7:15 PM Chintan Jadwani  
> wrote:
>
>> Another question - from a couple of reviews here people seem indifference 
>> of the performance between low vs high normal. But online elsewhwre, there 
>> seems to be strong dislike for low normal - why is that? 
>>
>> For example - disraeligears.co.uk writes for the xt m760
>>
>> "The Shimano Deore XT (M760) is my absolutely least favourite Deore XT 
>> variant. It has cheap (rust prone) detailing, unnecessary styling and, 
>> worst of all, it’s low normal. not your obvious choice for slogging your 
>> way through the mud and grime of a British winter. Bring back stainless 
>> steel small parts, polished finishes and top normal operating logic."
>>
>> On Wed, 20 Mar, 2024, 5:07 am John Dewey,  wrote:
>>
>>> And the Rivendell ‘fan base’ is a subset of another and another so as to 
>>> be mostly inconsequential. We do count, however and a few brave souls do 
>>> sort-of OK serving us. 
>>>
>>> Nevertheless, most of us (even here in RBW’s backyard) seldom cross 
>>> paths with cyclists with whom we have anything in common other than two 
>>> wheels. We’re already a bit abnormal and ‘low-normal’ makes us even more 
>>> so. 
>>>
>>> Jock (and his fleet of abnormal low-normals)
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 9:41 AM Johnny Alien  
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I have to think that most of the market for these is from the Rivendell 
 fan base. I don't hear any other bike group talking about them at all. 
 Because of that I kind of think IF Riv ends up bringing their new one to 
 market the used scene will come WAY down. Just a theory. I really hope 
 that 
 I can test the theory (because they successfully release it)

 On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 12:14:10 PM UTC-4 chintan...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

> Thank you all for the replies :) Now that I know of the RR, every time 
> I am on an uphill and I have to push the gear to climb higher on the 
> cassette I feel some justification for having a "low-normal" derailleur. 
>
> Thanks 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[John Dewey]

@ http://disraeligears.co.uk/…well I suppose if you pedal around in a
saltwater bath, like some of those unfortunate souls…that might happen.

For those us who ride under sunny skies now and again—and take care of
stuff properly—I can tell you that after years and years of working those
mechs, never a mixed-up shift that wasn’t my doing and not even a
microscopic spot of corrosion to be found anywhere.

Total hooey I say. And I’ve got the goods to prove it 浪

Jock


On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 7:15 PM Chintan Jadwani 
wrote:

> Another question - from a couple of reviews here people seem indifference
> of the performance between low vs high normal. But online elsewhwre, there
> seems to be strong dislike for low normal - why is that?
>
> For example - disraeligears.co.uk writes for the xt m760
>
> "The Shimano Deore XT (M760) is my absolutely least favourite Deore XT
> variant. It has cheap (rust prone) detailing, unnecessary styling and,
> worst of all, it’s low normal. not your obvious choice for slogging your
> way through the mud and grime of a British winter. Bring back stainless
> steel small parts, polished finishes and top normal operating logic."
>
> On Wed, 20 Mar, 2024, 5:07 am John Dewey,  wrote:
>
>> And the Rivendell ‘fan base’ is a subset of another and another so as to
>> be mostly inconsequential. We do count, however and a few brave souls do
>> sort-of OK serving us.
>>
>> Nevertheless, most of us (even here in RBW’s backyard) seldom cross paths
>> with cyclists with whom we have anything in common other than two wheels.
>> We’re already a bit abnormal and ‘low-normal’ makes us even more so.
>>
>> Jock (and his fleet of abnormal low-normals)
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 9:41 AM Johnny Alien 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have to think that most of the market for these is from the Rivendell
>>> fan base. I don't hear any other bike group talking about them at all.
>>> Because of that I kind of think IF Riv ends up bringing their new one to
>>> market the used scene will come WAY down. Just a theory. I really hope that
>>> I can test the theory (because they successfully release it)
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 12:14:10 PM UTC-4 chintan...@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Thank you all for the replies :) Now that I know of the RR, every time
 I am on an uphill and I have to push the gear to climb higher on the
 cassette I feel some justification for having a "low-normal" derailleur.

 Thanks also for clarifying that any of these will work well.

 The RR will also hypothetically make life a little easier in
 introducing a friend to front and rear shifting- why does the same action
 push the bike to a higher gear in the front and lower gear in the rear (I
 forget too..)

 On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 20:58, Miles Payton  wrote:

> I got a used XTR M951 long cage derailleur for a song on ebay a few
> months ago. Maybe there's not much demand? The seller gave me a half off
> offer so I couldn't refuse. Anyway it works great and it appears they're
> usually $50-80 depending on the condition. Not bad for what was once a
> top-of-the-line derailleur. I'd just avoid the NOS stuff because that's
> where you start spending $200 or more.
> I've been plenty happy with mine. It's paired to Gevenalle 10 speed
> shifters on my Atlantis. I can't speak to replacement parts but it 
> wouldn't
> be expensive to replace, and my old M900 hasn't needed more than a rebuild
> in 20 years. They're pretty well-made.
>
> On Monday, March 18, 2024 at 12:01:39 PM UTC-5 chintan jadwani wrote:
>
>> I'm looking to try a RR derailleur and want something under 50-60
>> ideally.
>>
>> Which ones would you recommend? Were there are early RR derailleurs
>> that one should stay from or budget ones that are a good value? Were 
>> there
>> differences in pulley sizes - so would be better to get one where
>> replacements are available?
>>
>> I'm currently seeing an LX m580, xt M760, an xtr m951 and xtr m952
>> around that range on ebay in different used conditions...and then the
>> prices rise very quickly!
>>
>> Thanks a lot for guiding :)
>> Chintan
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[Eric Marth]

Just wanted to pop in and say that if you're an eBay whiz and patient you 
can find rapid risers for not too much money. I've found two of the very 
nice Nexave T400s, both new, never used, for less than $30 each. There was 
a seller on eBay sometime in 2023 who listed a bunch of the T400s and 
another model of the Nexave for $25-$30 each, they were all new-old-stock. 

That said the XTR stuff always seems to run on the expensive side, rapid 
rise or otherwise. The LX and XT rapid risers are out there and a little 
cheaper. Another tip: if you can learn to visually ID a low-normal cage 
sometimes you can find derailers that are not listed as rapid rise by the 
seller and snag them for not as much money. 

Definitely agree with Johnny and Bill that Riv riders and readers and board 
members *and* Rivendell employees have been driving demand and therefore 
price. If Rivendell releases their own version and it lands in the $200 
range I don't see that cooling the secondary market. 
On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 10:15:13 PM UTC-4 chintan...@gmail.com wrote:

> Another question - from a couple of reviews here people seem indifference 
> of the performance between low vs high normal. But online elsewhwre, there 
> seems to be strong dislike for low normal - why is that? 
>
> For example - disraeligears.co.uk writes for the xt m760
>
> "The Shimano Deore XT (M760) is my absolutely least favourite Deore XT 
> variant. It has cheap (rust prone) detailing, unnecessary styling and, 
> worst of all, it’s low normal. not your obvious choice for slogging your 
> way through the mud and grime of a British winter. Bring back stainless 
> steel small parts, polished finishes and top normal operating logic."
>
> On Wed, 20 Mar, 2024, 5:07 am John Dewey,  wrote:
>
>> And the Rivendell ‘fan base’ is a subset of another and another so as to 
>> be mostly inconsequential. We do count, however and a few brave souls do 
>> sort-of OK serving us. 
>>
>> Nevertheless, most of us (even here in RBW’s backyard) seldom cross paths 
>> with cyclists with whom we have anything in common other than two wheels. 
>> We’re already a bit abnormal and ‘low-normal’ makes us even more so. 
>>
>> Jock (and his fleet of abnormal low-normals)
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 9:41 AM Johnny Alien  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have to think that most of the market for these is from the Rivendell 
>>> fan base. I don't hear any other bike group talking about them at all. 
>>> Because of that I kind of think IF Riv ends up bringing their new one to 
>>> market the used scene will come WAY down. Just a theory. I really hope that 
>>> I can test the theory (because they successfully release it)
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 12:14:10 PM UTC-4 chintan...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Thank you all for the replies :) Now that I know of the RR, every time 
 I am on an uphill and I have to push the gear to climb higher on the 
 cassette I feel some justification for having a "low-normal" derailleur. 

 Thanks also for clarifying that any of these will work well.

 The RR will also hypothetically make life a little easier in 
 introducing a friend to front and rear shifting- why does the same action 
 push the bike to a higher gear in the front and lower gear in the rear (I 
 forget too..)

 On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 20:58, Miles Payton  wrote:

> I got a used XTR M951 long cage derailleur for a song on ebay a few 
> months ago. Maybe there's not much demand? The seller gave me a half off 
> offer so I couldn't refuse. Anyway it works great and it appears they're 
> usually $50-80 depending on the condition. Not bad for what was once a 
> top-of-the-line derailleur. I'd just avoid the NOS stuff because that's 
> where you start spending $200 or more. 
> I've been plenty happy with mine. It's paired to Gevenalle 10 speed 
> shifters on my Atlantis. I can't speak to replacement parts but it 
> wouldn't 
> be expensive to replace, and my old M900 hasn't needed more than a 
> rebuild 
> in 20 years. They're pretty well-made.
>
> On Monday, March 18, 2024 at 12:01:39 PM UTC-5 chintan jadwani wrote:
>
>> I'm looking to try a RR derailleur and want something under 50-60 
>> ideally.
>>
>> Which ones would you recommend? Were there are early RR derailleurs 
>> that one should stay from or budget ones that are a good value? Were 
>> there 
>> differences in pulley sizes - so would be better to get one where 
>> replacements are available?
>>
>> I'm currently seeing an LX m580, xt M760, an xtr m951 and xtr m952 
>> around that range on ebay in different used conditions...and then the 
>> prices rise very quickly! 
>>
>> Thanks a lot for guiding :)
>> Chintan
>>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[Chintan Jadwani]

Another question - from a couple of reviews here people seem indifference
of the performance between low vs high normal. But online elsewhwre, there
seems to be strong dislike for low normal - why is that?

For example - disraeligears.co.uk writes for the xt m760

"The Shimano Deore XT (M760) is my absolutely least favourite Deore XT
variant. It has cheap (rust prone) detailing, unnecessary styling and,
worst of all, it’s low normal. not your obvious choice for slogging your
way through the mud and grime of a British winter. Bring back stainless
steel small parts, polished finishes and top normal operating logic."

On Wed, 20 Mar, 2024, 5:07 am John Dewey,  wrote:

> And the Rivendell ‘fan base’ is a subset of another and another so as to
> be mostly inconsequential. We do count, however and a few brave souls do
> sort-of OK serving us.
>
> Nevertheless, most of us (even here in RBW’s backyard) seldom cross paths
> with cyclists with whom we have anything in common other than two wheels.
> We’re already a bit abnormal and ‘low-normal’ makes us even more so.
>
> Jock (and his fleet of abnormal low-normals)
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 9:41 AM Johnny Alien 
> wrote:
>
>> I have to think that most of the market for these is from the Rivendell
>> fan base. I don't hear any other bike group talking about them at all.
>> Because of that I kind of think IF Riv ends up bringing their new one to
>> market the used scene will come WAY down. Just a theory. I really hope that
>> I can test the theory (because they successfully release it)
>>
>> On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 12:14:10 PM UTC-4 chintan...@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you all for the replies :) Now that I know of the RR, every time I
>>> am on an uphill and I have to push the gear to climb higher on the cassette
>>> I feel some justification for having a "low-normal" derailleur.
>>>
>>> Thanks also for clarifying that any of these will work well.
>>>
>>> The RR will also hypothetically make life a little easier in introducing
>>> a friend to front and rear shifting- why does the same action push the bike
>>> to a higher gear in the front and lower gear in the rear (I forget too..)
>>>
>>> On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 20:58, Miles Payton  wrote:
>>>
 I got a used XTR M951 long cage derailleur for a song on ebay a few
 months ago. Maybe there's not much demand? The seller gave me a half off
 offer so I couldn't refuse. Anyway it works great and it appears they're
 usually $50-80 depending on the condition. Not bad for what was once a
 top-of-the-line derailleur. I'd just avoid the NOS stuff because that's
 where you start spending $200 or more.
 I've been plenty happy with mine. It's paired to Gevenalle 10 speed
 shifters on my Atlantis. I can't speak to replacement parts but it wouldn't
 be expensive to replace, and my old M900 hasn't needed more than a rebuild
 in 20 years. They're pretty well-made.

 On Monday, March 18, 2024 at 12:01:39 PM UTC-5 chintan jadwani wrote:

> I'm looking to try a RR derailleur and want something under 50-60
> ideally.
>
> Which ones would you recommend? Were there are early RR derailleurs
> that one should stay from or budget ones that are a good value? Were there
> differences in pulley sizes - so would be better to get one where
> replacements are available?
>
> I'm currently seeing an LX m580, xt M760, an xtr m951 and xtr m952
> around that range on ebay in different used conditions...and then the
> prices rise very quickly!
>
> Thanks a lot for guiding :)
> Chintan
>
 --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[John Dewey]

And the Rivendell ‘fan base’ is a subset of another and another so as to be
mostly inconsequential. We do count, however and a few brave souls do
sort-of OK serving us.

Nevertheless, most of us (even here in RBW’s backyard) seldom cross paths
with cyclists with whom we have anything in common other than two wheels.
We’re already a bit abnormal and ‘low-normal’ makes us even more so.

Jock (and his fleet of abnormal low-normals)

On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 9:41 AM Johnny Alien 
wrote:

> I have to think that most of the market for these is from the Rivendell
> fan base. I don't hear any other bike group talking about them at all.
> Because of that I kind of think IF Riv ends up bringing their new one to
> market the used scene will come WAY down. Just a theory. I really hope that
> I can test the theory (because they successfully release it)
>
> On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 12:14:10 PM UTC-4 chintan...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you all for the replies :) Now that I know of the RR, every time I
>> am on an uphill and I have to push the gear to climb higher on the cassette
>> I feel some justification for having a "low-normal" derailleur.
>>
>> Thanks also for clarifying that any of these will work well.
>>
>> The RR will also hypothetically make life a little easier in introducing
>> a friend to front and rear shifting- why does the same action push the bike
>> to a higher gear in the front and lower gear in the rear (I forget too..)
>>
>> On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 20:58, Miles Payton  wrote:
>>
>>> I got a used XTR M951 long cage derailleur for a song on ebay a few
>>> months ago. Maybe there's not much demand? The seller gave me a half off
>>> offer so I couldn't refuse. Anyway it works great and it appears they're
>>> usually $50-80 depending on the condition. Not bad for what was once a
>>> top-of-the-line derailleur. I'd just avoid the NOS stuff because that's
>>> where you start spending $200 or more.
>>> I've been plenty happy with mine. It's paired to Gevenalle 10 speed
>>> shifters on my Atlantis. I can't speak to replacement parts but it wouldn't
>>> be expensive to replace, and my old M900 hasn't needed more than a rebuild
>>> in 20 years. They're pretty well-made.
>>>
>>> On Monday, March 18, 2024 at 12:01:39 PM UTC-5 chintan jadwani wrote:
>>>
 I'm looking to try a RR derailleur and want something under 50-60
 ideally.

 Which ones would you recommend? Were there are early RR derailleurs
 that one should stay from or budget ones that are a good value? Were there
 differences in pulley sizes - so would be better to get one where
 replacements are available?

 I'm currently seeing an LX m580, xt M760, an xtr m951 and xtr m952
 around that range on ebay in different used conditions...and then the
 prices rise very quickly!

 Thanks a lot for guiding :)
 Chintan

>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
>>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/W7fPfdsBFqw/unsubscribe
>>> .
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
>>> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/a54c1daa-9eed-4c93-a14b-291f86853932n%40googlegroups.com
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>> --
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> .
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[Bill Lindsay]

" that Libertas that (yes, Bill) I have plans to build"

blah blah blah.  I'll believe it when I see it.  

BL in EC
On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 1:56:11 PM UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote:

> Ah, I mispoke; Huret indeed.
>
> Peter knows much more about such pre-Campy parallelogram derailleur 
> esoterica, and I for one am glad I haven't had to get such a rd to work 
> since my 2-speed SA days, but I recall an old-timer on the CR list saying 
> that they worked pretty well if they were properly set up, but that setup 
> was very hard to do right. 
>
> Peter, insofar as "low-normal" is the thread here and pullchain rds are 
> low-normal, have you set one of these up, and can we see photos? Maybe it 
> will give Grant some ideas.
>
> It has been years since I read Dancing Chain; was he really so dismissive? 
> I don't recall, but I'll have to borrow the book back from my brother.
>
> Also recall someone -- CR lister? -- describing how in the late '40s and 
> '50s in Australia race gearing was sparse (4 or 5 speeds), low (49 t sing 
> ring, 14-20 4-speed), and cadences high; and, shifted with pull chain rds, 
> the drivetrain often sounded like a coffee grinder -- I guess because it 
> was hard to adjust these things well. 
>
> I'm tempted to hunt one down and install it on that Libertas that (yes, 
> Bill) I have plans to build up as a outside-lockable errand bike that is 
> fun to ride. With wingnuts.
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 11:57 AM Peter Adler  wrote:
>
>> And another nitpicky point: The two-lever derailleur is connected not to 
>> a Simplex pullchain derailleur, but to the mid-50s fancy-bikeshorts 
>> pullchain derailleur from their rival, Huret: the Huret Louison Bobet, so 
>> named for the three-time Tour de France winner (1953-55) whose Stella team 
>> rode with that derailleur. Simplex had a competing design - the Juy 543 
>> named for the company president/designer Lucien Juy and the fact that the 
>> derailleur could be set with a slide mechanism to work with 3-speed, 
>> 4-speed and 5-speed freewheels, at a time when all were current in the 
>> marketplace.
>>
>> Like the Huret Louison Bobet, the Simplex Juy 543 had two cables. But 
>> instead of having a separate control lever for chain tension adjustment, 
>> the Simplex mechanism had a junction block which was clamped along the 
>> shift cable between the bottom bracket and the chainstay cable stop. The 
>> main pulley adjustment cable ran full from shift lever to derailleur, while 
>> a second cable stub was clamped to the first cable. The two adjustments 
>> this worked in parallel, which the chain tension automatically 
>> tightened/loosened as one shifted between bigger/smaller cogs.
>>
>> The Simplex was an early example of black-boxing tech; the pullchain and 
>> slide mechanism were concealed from view (and from road scuzz, which I'm 
>> sure was Simplex's excuse) with a chrome cover plate. It's a sleeker, more 
>> modern-looking derailleur than most pullchain models.
>>
>> All this engineering chozzerai must have been expensive to design and 
>> manufacture, and the price obviously discouraged mass appeal. My hunch is 
>> that the 1950s fixation on chain friction must also have been revealed to 
>> be silly. By the end of the decade, as Campagnolo was driving all the 
>> pullchain companies into irrelevancy in the racer market with a durable 
>> rear derailleur that as Frank Berto said, "didn't shift very well, but it 
>> would do it forever", and that didn't cater to the friction fixation at 
>> all. The ne plus ultra of Simplex's high-end pullchain derailleurs was the 
>> Juy 60, cosmetically a clone of the earlier 543 with the chrome cover 
>> plate, but with no freewheel selector (5-speed was assumed) and with no 
>> tension adjustment. After 1960, Simplex accepted that they'd lost the 
>> design war against Campagnolo's parallelogram derailleurs by building the 
>> excellent and beautiful Juy 61 Export (a design that clearly drove the 
>> designers at Suntour), and the technically similar/cosmetically uglier Raid 
>> 35, before going down the drain building derailleurs out of plastic.
>>
>> ===
>>
>> Frank Berto's discussion of the history of the companies in the 1950s in 
>> The Dancing Chain is, IMHO, far better than his discussion of the 
>> derailleurs themselves. Hs take on all the 50s derailleurs other than 
>> Campy's Gran Sport is mostly to call the design stupid, which they sort of 
>> are. They're fiddly to get working; placing the pulley cage under the big 
>> cog is a real balancing act, because the placement is done by adjusting the 
>> tension on that coil spring inside the ribbon spring, which I only 
>> discovered a few days ago by accident.
>>
>> Berto's big objection is mostly to Simplex, who put the dual-spring cage 
>> in/cage  out mechanism at the centerpoint of the pulley cage. Many of 
>> Huret's derailleurs put it close to the end, which means that one could 
>> route the chain like a modern 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[Patrick Moore]

Ah, I mispoke; Huret indeed.

Peter knows much more about such pre-Campy parallelogram derailleur
esoterica, and I for one am glad I haven't had to get such a rd to work
since my 2-speed SA days, but I recall an old-timer on the CR list saying
that they worked pretty well if they were properly set up, but that setup
was very hard to do right.

Peter, insofar as "low-normal" is the thread here and pullchain rds are
low-normal, have you set one of these up, and can we see photos? Maybe it
will give Grant some ideas.

It has been years since I read Dancing Chain; was he really so dismissive?
I don't recall, but I'll have to borrow the book back from my brother.

Also recall someone -- CR lister? -- describing how in the late '40s and
'50s in Australia race gearing was sparse (4 or 5 speeds), low (49 t sing
ring, 14-20 4-speed), and cadences high; and, shifted with pull chain rds,
the drivetrain often sounded like a coffee grinder -- I guess because it
was hard to adjust these things well.

I'm tempted to hunt one down and install it on that Libertas that (yes,
Bill) I have plans to build up as a outside-lockable errand bike that is
fun to ride. With wingnuts.

On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 11:57 AM Peter Adler  wrote:

> And another nitpicky point: The two-lever derailleur is connected not to a
> Simplex pullchain derailleur, but to the mid-50s fancy-bikeshorts pullchain
> derailleur from their rival, Huret: the Huret Louison Bobet, so named for
> the three-time Tour de France winner (1953-55) whose Stella team rode with
> that derailleur. Simplex had a competing design - the Juy 543 named for the
> company president/designer Lucien Juy and the fact that the derailleur
> could be set with a slide mechanism to work with 3-speed, 4-speed and
> 5-speed freewheels, at a time when all were current in the marketplace.
>
> Like the Huret Louison Bobet, the Simplex Juy 543 had two cables. But
> instead of having a separate control lever for chain tension adjustment,
> the Simplex mechanism had a junction block which was clamped along the
> shift cable between the bottom bracket and the chainstay cable stop. The
> main pulley adjustment cable ran full from shift lever to derailleur, while
> a second cable stub was clamped to the first cable. The two adjustments
> this worked in parallel, which the chain tension automatically
> tightened/loosened as one shifted between bigger/smaller cogs.
>
> The Simplex was an early example of black-boxing tech; the pullchain and
> slide mechanism were concealed from view (and from road scuzz, which I'm
> sure was Simplex's excuse) with a chrome cover plate. It's a sleeker, more
> modern-looking derailleur than most pullchain models.
>
> All this engineering chozzerai must have been expensive to design and
> manufacture, and the price obviously discouraged mass appeal. My hunch is
> that the 1950s fixation on chain friction must also have been revealed to
> be silly. By the end of the decade, as Campagnolo was driving all the
> pullchain companies into irrelevancy in the racer market with a durable
> rear derailleur that as Frank Berto said, "didn't shift very well, but it
> would do it forever", and that didn't cater to the friction fixation at
> all. The ne plus ultra of Simplex's high-end pullchain derailleurs was the
> Juy 60, cosmetically a clone of the earlier 543 with the chrome cover
> plate, but with no freewheel selector (5-speed was assumed) and with no
> tension adjustment. After 1960, Simplex accepted that they'd lost the
> design war against Campagnolo's parallelogram derailleurs by building the
> excellent and beautiful Juy 61 Export (a design that clearly drove the
> designers at Suntour), and the technically similar/cosmetically uglier Raid
> 35, before going down the drain building derailleurs out of plastic.
>
> ===
>
> Frank Berto's discussion of the history of the companies in the 1950s in
> The Dancing Chain is, IMHO, far better than his discussion of the
> derailleurs themselves. Hs take on all the 50s derailleurs other than
> Campy's Gran Sport is mostly to call the design stupid, which they sort of
> are. They're fiddly to get working; placing the pulley cage under the big
> cog is a real balancing act, because the placement is done by adjusting the
> tension on that coil spring inside the ribbon spring, which I only
> discovered a few days ago by accident.
>
> Berto's big objection is mostly to Simplex, who put the dual-spring cage
> in/cage  out mechanism at the centerpoint of the pulley cage. Many of
> Huret's derailleurs put it close to the end, which means that one could
> route the chain like a modern derailleur for more chainwrap, with the
> pulley cage near the spring and the tension cage below. The Simplex ones
> work pretty much the same regardless of which way the cage is oriented,
> with no additional takeup. Berto's belief is/was that Simplex had made a
> nice livelihood for themselves making single-pulley derailleurs, and didn't
> want to 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[Peter Adler]

And another nitpicky point: The two-lever derailleur is connected not to a 
Simplex pullchain derailleur, but to the mid-50s fancy-bikeshorts pullchain 
derailleur from their rival, Huret: the Huret Louison Bobet, so named for 
the three-time Tour de France winner (1953-55) whose Stella team rode with 
that derailleur. Simplex had a competing design - the Juy 543 named for the 
company president/designer Lucien Juy and the fact that the derailleur 
could be set with a slide mechanism to work with 3-speed, 4-speed and 
5-speed freewheels, at a time when all were current in the marketplace.

Like the Huret Louison Bobet, the Simplex Juy 543 had two cables. But 
instead of having a separate control lever for chain tension adjustment, 
the Simplex mechanism had a junction block which was clamped along the 
shift cable between the bottom bracket and the chainstay cable stop. The 
main pulley adjustment cable ran full from shift lever to derailleur, while 
a second cable stub was clamped to the first cable. The two adjustments 
this worked in parallel, which the chain tension automatically 
tightened/loosened as one shifted between bigger/smaller cogs.

The Simplex was an early example of black-boxing tech; the pullchain and 
slide mechanism were concealed from view (and from road scuzz, which I'm 
sure was Simplex's excuse) with a chrome cover plate. It's a sleeker, more 
modern-looking derailleur than most pullchain models.

All this engineering chozzerai must have been expensive to design and 
manufacture, and the price obviously discouraged mass appeal. My hunch is 
that the 1950s fixation on chain friction must also have been revealed to 
be silly. By the end of the decade, as Campagnolo was driving all the 
pullchain companies into irrelevancy in the racer market with a durable 
rear derailleur that as Frank Berto said, "didn't shift very well, but it 
would do it forever", and that didn't cater to the friction fixation at 
all. The ne plus ultra of Simplex's high-end pullchain derailleurs was the 
Juy 60, cosmetically a clone of the earlier 543 with the chrome cover 
plate, but with no freewheel selector (5-speed was assumed) and with no 
tension adjustment. After 1960, Simplex accepted that they'd lost the 
design war against Campagnolo's parallelogram derailleurs by building the 
excellent and beautiful Juy 61 Export (a design that clearly drove the 
designers at Suntour), and the technically similar/cosmetically uglier Raid 
35, before going down the drain building derailleurs out of plastic.

===

Frank Berto's discussion of the history of the companies in the 1950s in 
The Dancing Chain is, IMHO, far better than his discussion of the 
derailleurs themselves. Hs take on all the 50s derailleurs other than 
Campy's Gran Sport is mostly to call the design stupid, which they sort of 
are. They're fiddly to get working; placing the pulley cage under the big 
cog is a real balancing act, because the placement is done by adjusting the 
tension on that coil spring inside the ribbon spring, which I only 
discovered a few days ago by accident.

Berto's big objection is mostly to Simplex, who put the dual-spring cage 
in/cage  out mechanism at the centerpoint of the pulley cage. Many of 
Huret's derailleurs put it close to the end, which means that one could 
route the chain like a modern derailleur for more chainwrap, with the 
pulley cage near the spring and the tension cage below. The Simplex ones 
work pretty much the same regardless of which way the cage is oriented, 
with no additional takeup. Berto's belief is/was that Simplex had made a 
nice livelihood for themselves making single-pulley derailleurs, and didn't 
want to alienate their racing customers by making derailleurs that worked 
wildly differently. So they made single-pulley derailleurs with two pulleys.

Unfortunately for the hobbyist, Berto's contempt for the design means that 
he doesn't speak at all about making them work. 60+ years after they 
vanished from the marketplace, it's almost impossible to find any 
documentation on configuration, other than the original instructions 
included in the packages written in midcentury flowery French or English 
that's hard for most people (well, for me at least) to translate to 
instructions I can use. Most of the technicians who learned how to do it 
the official way BITD are now dead. Those of us who get them sorta-working 
mostly do so through dumb luck; my addition of a couple of extra links 
beyond the Shimano big-big +1 parallelogram measurement suddenly gained me 
the ability to reach 7 out of 10 gears, where I had only been able to do a 
single speed beforehand. A datapoint for the the tricks file.

Peter "wall of text!" Adler
Berkeley, California/USA

On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 8:25:00 AM UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote:

BTW, Grant is wrong in the March 2022 blog about the second lever for the 
Simplex pullchain rd. It is indeed meant to take up or relax chain tension, 
but not 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[Bill Lindsay]

Johnny, you're probably right: Look at how cheaply we can buy Rene Herse 
Nivex rear derailleurs on the used market today...

;-)

BL in EC

On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 9:41:08 AM UTC-7 Johnny Alien wrote:

> I have to think that most of the market for these is from the Rivendell 
> fan base. I don't hear any other bike group talking about them at all. 
> Because of that I kind of think IF Riv ends up bringing their new one to 
> market the used scene will come WAY down. Just a theory. I really hope that 
> I can test the theory (because they successfully release it)
>
> On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 12:14:10 PM UTC-4 chintan...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you all for the replies :) Now that I know of the RR, every time I 
>> am on an uphill and I have to push the gear to climb higher on the cassette 
>> I feel some justification for having a "low-normal" derailleur. 
>>
>> Thanks also for clarifying that any of these will work well.
>>
>> The RR will also hypothetically make life a little easier in introducing 
>> a friend to front and rear shifting- why does the same action push the bike 
>> to a higher gear in the front and lower gear in the rear (I forget too..)
>>
>> On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 20:58, Miles Payton  wrote:
>>
>>> I got a used XTR M951 long cage derailleur for a song on ebay a few 
>>> months ago. Maybe there's not much demand? The seller gave me a half off 
>>> offer so I couldn't refuse. Anyway it works great and it appears they're 
>>> usually $50-80 depending on the condition. Not bad for what was once a 
>>> top-of-the-line derailleur. I'd just avoid the NOS stuff because that's 
>>> where you start spending $200 or more. 
>>> I've been plenty happy with mine. It's paired to Gevenalle 10 speed 
>>> shifters on my Atlantis. I can't speak to replacement parts but it wouldn't 
>>> be expensive to replace, and my old M900 hasn't needed more than a rebuild 
>>> in 20 years. They're pretty well-made.
>>>
>>> On Monday, March 18, 2024 at 12:01:39 PM UTC-5 chintan jadwani wrote:
>>>
 I'm looking to try a RR derailleur and want something under 50-60 
 ideally.

 Which ones would you recommend? Were there are early RR derailleurs 
 that one should stay from or budget ones that are a good value? Were there 
 differences in pulley sizes - so would be better to get one where 
 replacements are available?

 I'm currently seeing an LX m580, xt M760, an xtr m951 and xtr m952 
 around that range on ebay in different used conditions...and then the 
 prices rise very quickly! 

 Thanks a lot for guiding :)
 Chintan

>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
>>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/W7fPfdsBFqw/unsubscribe
>>> .
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 
>>> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/a54c1daa-9eed-4c93-a14b-291f86853932n%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[Johnny Alien]

I have to think that most of the market for these is from the Rivendell fan 
base. I don't hear any other bike group talking about them at all. Because 
of that I kind of think IF Riv ends up bringing their new one to market the 
used scene will come WAY down. Just a theory. I really hope that I can test 
the theory (because they successfully release it)

On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 12:14:10 PM UTC-4 chintan...@gmail.com wrote:

> Thank you all for the replies :) Now that I know of the RR, every time I 
> am on an uphill and I have to push the gear to climb higher on the cassette 
> I feel some justification for having a "low-normal" derailleur. 
>
> Thanks also for clarifying that any of these will work well.
>
> The RR will also hypothetically make life a little easier in introducing a 
> friend to front and rear shifting- why does the same action push the bike 
> to a higher gear in the front and lower gear in the rear (I forget too..)
>
> On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 20:58, Miles Payton  wrote:
>
>> I got a used XTR M951 long cage derailleur for a song on ebay a few 
>> months ago. Maybe there's not much demand? The seller gave me a half off 
>> offer so I couldn't refuse. Anyway it works great and it appears they're 
>> usually $50-80 depending on the condition. Not bad for what was once a 
>> top-of-the-line derailleur. I'd just avoid the NOS stuff because that's 
>> where you start spending $200 or more. 
>> I've been plenty happy with mine. It's paired to Gevenalle 10 speed 
>> shifters on my Atlantis. I can't speak to replacement parts but it wouldn't 
>> be expensive to replace, and my old M900 hasn't needed more than a rebuild 
>> in 20 years. They're pretty well-made.
>>
>> On Monday, March 18, 2024 at 12:01:39 PM UTC-5 chintan jadwani wrote:
>>
>>> I'm looking to try a RR derailleur and want something under 50-60 
>>> ideally.
>>>
>>> Which ones would you recommend? Were there are early RR derailleurs that 
>>> one should stay from or budget ones that are a good value? Were there 
>>> differences in pulley sizes - so would be better to get one where 
>>> replacements are available?
>>>
>>> I'm currently seeing an LX m580, xt M760, an xtr m951 and xtr m952 
>>> around that range on ebay in different used conditions...and then the 
>>> prices rise very quickly! 
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot for guiding :)
>>> Chintan
>>>
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>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[Chintan Jadwani]

Thank you all for the replies :) Now that I know of the RR, every time I am
on an uphill and I have to push the gear to climb higher on the cassette I
feel some justification for having a "low-normal" derailleur.

Thanks also for clarifying that any of these will work well.

The RR will also hypothetically make life a little easier in introducing a
friend to front and rear shifting- why does the same action push the bike
to a higher gear in the front and lower gear in the rear (I forget too..)

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 at 20:58, Miles Payton  wrote:

> I got a used XTR M951 long cage derailleur for a song on ebay a few months
> ago. Maybe there's not much demand? The seller gave me a half off offer so
> I couldn't refuse. Anyway it works great and it appears they're usually
> $50-80 depending on the condition. Not bad for what was once a
> top-of-the-line derailleur. I'd just avoid the NOS stuff because that's
> where you start spending $200 or more.
> I've been plenty happy with mine. It's paired to Gevenalle 10 speed
> shifters on my Atlantis. I can't speak to replacement parts but it wouldn't
> be expensive to replace, and my old M900 hasn't needed more than a rebuild
> in 20 years. They're pretty well-made.
>
> On Monday, March 18, 2024 at 12:01:39 PM UTC-5 chintan jadwani wrote:
>
>> I'm looking to try a RR derailleur and want something under 50-60 ideally.
>>
>> Which ones would you recommend? Were there are early RR derailleurs that
>> one should stay from or budget ones that are a good value? Were there
>> differences in pulley sizes - so would be better to get one where
>> replacements are available?
>>
>> I'm currently seeing an LX m580, xt M760, an xtr m951 and xtr m952 around
>> that range on ebay in different used conditions...and then the prices rise
>> very quickly!
>>
>> Thanks a lot for guiding :)
>> Chintan
>>
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[RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[Miles Payton]

I got a used XTR M951 long cage derailleur for a song on ebay a few months 
ago. Maybe there's not much demand? The seller gave me a half off offer so 
I couldn't refuse. Anyway it works great and it appears they're usually 
$50-80 depending on the condition. Not bad for what was once a 
top-of-the-line derailleur. I'd just avoid the NOS stuff because that's 
where you start spending $200 or more. 
I've been plenty happy with mine. It's paired to Gevenalle 10 speed 
shifters on my Atlantis. I can't speak to replacement parts but it wouldn't 
be expensive to replace, and my old M900 hasn't needed more than a rebuild 
in 20 years. They're pretty well-made.

On Monday, March 18, 2024 at 12:01:39 PM UTC-5 chintan jadwani wrote:

> I'm looking to try a RR derailleur and want something under 50-60 ideally.
>
> Which ones would you recommend? Were there are early RR derailleurs that 
> one should stay from or budget ones that are a good value? Were there 
> differences in pulley sizes - so would be better to get one where 
> replacements are available?
>
> I'm currently seeing an LX m580, xt M760, an xtr m951 and xtr m952 around 
> that range on ebay in different used conditions...and then the prices rise 
> very quickly! 
>
> Thanks a lot for guiding :)
> Chintan
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[Patrick Moore]

Interesting information about derailleur design history. But I read the
"normal" in "low-normal" or "high-normal" as simply "relaxed spring" and
not as "the way it ought to work."

My 2010 (purchased IIRC in 2011 or so) Sam Hill came with a "low-normal" LX
rd, and it was one of the best shifting rds I've used (first-gen Silver bar
end shifters) -- but that was simply because it was a mature-design
Shimano. I fully expect that I'd have gotten used to the reversed spring
action, but I didn't feel like doing so and sold it, and replaced it with
an equally good-shifting Micoshift road rd. (All modern rds are among the
best-shifting rds I've ever used.)

I did somehow manage to find a NOS "low-normal" Cyclo Benelux rd on a bike
shop in Nairobi in 1970 and used it on a makeshift 2-speed SA AW block
(after shimming out the cage to accommodate a 1/8" chain). That too worked
fine, over 2 cogs but then I had removed the outer chainring (50 t IIRC;
that left the 40 t inner) and front shifter so I had only 1 derailleur
movement to keep track of.

Frank Berto's early 2000's book, "The Dancing Chain" was a wonderful,
thorough but very readable historical overview of derailleur systems from
the turn of the 19th century up to at least the 8 speed era.

Patrick Moore, who likes the term "shifting pope."

On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 4:32 AM Peter Adler  wrote:

> To be nitpicky, "high normal"/"low normal" is terminology that's
> meaningful primarily for parallelogram derailleurs. We operate as if those
> are the only derailleurs that exist because parallelogram derailleurs
> (mostly developed as extrapolations and knockoffs of Campagnolo's 1951 Gran
> Sport, with important upper pivot developments by Simplex and then
> extensive advancement by Shimano and Suntour) have essentially eliminated
> the phantasmigorical range of derailleur designs that existed before 1960.
>
> Consider the Cyclo, a 1930s design employed widely by French framebuilders
> for both touring and townie bikes. The derailleur mounts under the
> driveside chainstay, and has no spring action at all - a single looping
> cable caused a helical shaft to pull the derailleur's pulley cage in one
> direction or the other, and the cage goes however far you pull it. In the
> case of the Cyclo, or other derailleurs in the category Jan Heine refers to
> as "desmodromic" such as the Nivex Rene Herse is duplicating at (I'm sure)
> great expense, there is no "normal"; there is no position to which the
> derailleur cage returns when cable tension is released because cable
> tension is equal throughout the derailleur's range. There is no spring to
> return the cage to a point of stasis.
>
> https://www.disraeligears.co.uk/site/french_patent_582247_-_cyclo.html
>
> Our understanding that a "normal" derailleur state is conditioned by the
> derailleurs which which we each have personal experience is easy to forget.
> A couple years ago, Grant published a blahg item commenting on a 1950s
> French racer brought in by our mutual acquaintance Ted Trambley of
> Martinez, whom I know from CR primarily as a hobbyist restorer like myself.
> He had brought in an early 1950s Alcyon (a marque which won a fair number
> of Tours de France in the 1920s-30s) equipped with a Huret suicide front
> derailleur (a mutual interest of Grant's and mine; I got Grant's
> reassembled after an attempted cloner had sent it back from Australia in
> pieces) and a Huret Louison Bobet rear derailleur. That rear derailleur
> fits into a category I call "pullchain", because I haven't seen another
> generic name for the type; the shift cable pulls a chain which goes through
> the derailleur body to the pulley cage, and increasing tension on the
> shifter+cable+chain draws the pulley cage outwards towards the body of the
> derailleur projecting outward from the frame, with counteracting pressure
> from a sort of flat clock-type spring.
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/grant-petersens-blog/late-march-3
>
> Grant's post gets excited about the fact that this means that relaxing
> cable tension means the pulley cage goes inwards towards the large cog -
> i.e., a "low normal"/"rapid-rise" derailleur. What he doesn't comment on is
> the fact that in the 40s-50s there were dozens of derailleur models from
> multiple companies in multiple countries (including Japan; the first
> Shimano and Suntour derailleurs were knockoffs of Simplex pullchain
> derailleurs) that did exactly the same thing, because that's just how the
> design works. Pullchain rears were the most common format of racing
> derailleur in the era, until enough teams bought Campagnolo's parallelogram
> derailleurs to displace them. I don't know why Grant doesn't mention this;
> I'm guessing it's because that style/design of derailleur is outside the
> range of his first-hand experience, as it is for me until recently and for
> almost any other rider/bike tech nerd under 85.
>
> "Absolute normal"? "Opposite movement"? Who's the Shifting Pope who gets
> to 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[Peter Adler]

To be nitpicky, "high normal"/"low normal" is terminology that's meaningful 
primarily for parallelogram derailleurs. We operate as if those are the 
only derailleurs that exist because parallelogram derailleurs (mostly 
developed as extrapolations and knockoffs of Campagnolo's 1951 Gran Sport, 
with important upper pivot developments by Simplex and then extensive 
advancement by Shimano and Suntour) have essentially eliminated the 
phantasmigorical range of derailleur designs that existed before 1960.

Consider the Cyclo, a 1930s design employed widely by French framebuilders 
for both touring and townie bikes. The derailleur mounts under the 
driveside chainstay, and has no spring action at all - a single looping 
cable caused a helical shaft to pull the derailleur's pulley cage in one 
direction or the other, and the cage goes however far you pull it. In the 
case of the Cyclo, or other derailleurs in the category Jan Heine refers to 
as "desmodromic" such as the Nivex Rene Herse is duplicating at (I'm sure) 
great expense, there is no "normal"; there is no position to which the 
derailleur cage returns when cable tension is released because cable 
tension is equal throughout the derailleur's range. There is no spring to 
return the cage to a point of stasis.

https://www.disraeligears.co.uk/site/french_patent_582247_-_cyclo.html

Our understanding that a "normal" derailleur state is conditioned by the 
derailleurs which which we each have personal experience is easy to forget. 
A couple years ago, Grant published a blahg item commenting on a 1950s 
French racer brought in by our mutual acquaintance Ted Trambley of 
Martinez, whom I know from CR primarily as a hobbyist restorer like myself. 
He had brought in an early 1950s Alcyon (a marque which won a fair number 
of Tours de France in the 1920s-30s) equipped with a Huret suicide front 
derailleur (a mutual interest of Grant's and mine; I got Grant's 
reassembled after an attempted cloner had sent it back from Australia in 
pieces) and a Huret Louison Bobet rear derailleur. That rear derailleur 
fits into a category I call "pullchain", because I haven't seen another 
generic name for the type; the shift cable pulls a chain which goes through 
the derailleur body to the pulley cage, and increasing tension on the 
shifter+cable+chain draws the pulley cage outwards towards the body of the 
derailleur projecting outward from the frame, with counteracting pressure 
from a sort of flat clock-type spring.

https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/grant-petersens-blog/late-march-3

Grant's post gets excited about the fact that this means that relaxing 
cable tension means the pulley cage goes inwards towards the large cog - 
i.e., a "low normal"/"rapid-rise" derailleur. What he doesn't comment on is 
the fact that in the 40s-50s there were dozens of derailleur models from 
multiple companies in multiple countries (including Japan; the first 
Shimano and Suntour derailleurs were knockoffs of Simplex pullchain 
derailleurs) that did exactly the same thing, because that's just how the 
design works. Pullchain rears were the most common format of racing 
derailleur in the era, until enough teams bought Campagnolo's parallelogram 
derailleurs to displace them. I don't know why Grant doesn't mention this; 
I'm guessing it's because that style/design of derailleur is outside the 
range of his first-hand experience, as it is for me until recently and for 
almost any other rider/bike tech nerd under 85.

"Absolute normal"? "Opposite movement"? Who's the Shifting Pope who gets to 
decide what "normal" is, from which everything else is a deviation? People 
have been making multigeared bikes for over 100 years, most of which have 
incorporated some mechanical means of changing gears while in motion. A few 
systems are still around largely because all the manufacturers dropped the 
other systems during the Eisenhower and Kennedy Administrations, but 
there's patents and surviving examples of other options. IMHO, rapid-rise 
parallelogram derailleurs are a little foolish - not because they've been 
tried in the marketplace several times and very few people other than Grant 
liked them, but because they're trying to force a dropped parallelogram 
mechanism to produce the opposite result of what the mechanism was designed 
to do, which is likely to be done with Rube Goldberg engineering. How much 
more of that do we really need?

Peter Adler
who was a devout rider of the Huret Duopar, the world's most 
over-engineered derailleur, for well over a decade in
Berkeley, California/USA

On Monday, March 18, 2024 at 8:17:37 PM UTC-7 J J wrote:

High normal refers to “regular” rear derailleurs, for which the default 
position with no spring tension is in the highest gear. Hence, high normal. 
Low normal (what Shimano called Rapid Rise) is the opposite: the default 
derailleur position without spring tension is in the lowest (largest) gear. 

This is why Grant/Riv are calling their low normal 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[John Rinker]

Perfectly clear! Thanks JJ.

On Monday, March 18, 2024 at 8:17:37 PM UTC-7 J J wrote:

> High normal refers to “regular” rear derailleurs, for which the default 
> position with no spring tension is in the highest gear. Hence, high normal. 
> Low normal (what Shimano called Rapid Rise) is the opposite: the default 
> derailleur position without spring tension is in the lowest (largest) gear. 
>
> This is why Grant/Riv are calling their low normal derailleur in 
> development the “OM,” for opposite movement, sort of rejecting the notion 
> that high normal is the absolute normal. The different movements are just 
> opposite each other. 
>
>
>
> On Mar 18, 2024, at 11:02 PM, John Rinker  wrote:
>
> Just curious: What does 'high normal' mean in the derailleur world?
>
>
> Cheers, John
>
>
>
> On Monday, March 18, 2024 at 3:44:45 PM UTC-7 ian m wrote:
>
>> I believe the M952 is high normal, but you can't go wrong with the M951
>>
>> On Monday, March 18, 2024 at 1:01:39 PM UTC-4 chintan...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I'm looking to try a RR derailleur and want something under 50-60 
>>> ideally.
>>>
>>> Which ones would you recommend? Were there are early RR derailleurs that 
>>> one should stay from or budget ones that are a good value? Were there 
>>> differences in pulley sizes - so would be better to get one where 
>>> replacements are available?
>>>
>>> I'm currently seeing an LX m580, xt M760, an xtr m951 and xtr m952 
>>> around that range on ebay in different used conditions...and then the 
>>> prices rise very quickly! 
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot for guiding :)
>>> Chintan
>>>
>> -- 
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> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[Junes]

High normal refers to “regular” rear derailleurs, for which the default position with no spring tension is in the highest gear. Hence, high normal. Low normal (what Shimano called Rapid Rise) is the opposite: the default derailleur position without spring tension is in the lowest (largest) gear. This is why Grant/Riv are calling their low normal derailleur in development the “OM,” for opposite movement, sort of rejecting the notion that high normal is the absolute normal. The different movements are just opposite each other. On Mar 18, 2024, at 11:02 PM, John Rinker  wrote:Just curious: What does 'high normal' mean in the derailleur world?Cheers, JohnOn Monday, March 18, 2024 at 3:44:45 PM UTC-7 ian m wrote:I believe the M952 is high normal, but you can't go wrong with the M951On Monday, March 18, 2024 at 1:01:39 PM UTC-4 chintan...@gmail.com wrote:I'm looking to try a RR derailleur and want something under 50-60 ideally.Which ones would you recommend? Were there are early RR derailleurs that one should stay from or budget ones that are a good value? Were there differences in pulley sizes - so would be better to get one where replacements are available?I'm currently seeing an LX m580, xt M760, an xtr m951 and xtr m952 around that range on ebay in different used conditions...and then the prices rise very quickly! Thanks a lot for guiding :)Chintan



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[RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[John Rinker]

Just curious: What does 'high normal' mean in the derailleur world?

Cheers, John



On Monday, March 18, 2024 at 3:44:45 PM UTC-7 ian m wrote:

> I believe the M952 is high normal, but you can't go wrong with the M951
>
> On Monday, March 18, 2024 at 1:01:39 PM UTC-4 chintan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I'm looking to try a RR derailleur and want something under 50-60 ideally.
>>
>> Which ones would you recommend? Were there are early RR derailleurs that 
>> one should stay from or budget ones that are a good value? Were there 
>> differences in pulley sizes - so would be better to get one where 
>> replacements are available?
>>
>> I'm currently seeing an LX m580, xt M760, an xtr m951 and xtr m952 around 
>> that range on ebay in different used conditions...and then the prices rise 
>> very quickly! 
>>
>> Thanks a lot for guiding :)
>> Chintan
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rapid rise derailleur suggestion

[ian m]

I believe the M952 is high normal, but you can't go wrong with the M951

On Monday, March 18, 2024 at 1:01:39 PM UTC-4 chintan...@gmail.com wrote:

> I'm looking to try a RR derailleur and want something under 50-60 ideally.
>
> Which ones would you recommend? Were there are early RR derailleurs that 
> one should stay from or budget ones that are a good value? Were there 
> differences in pulley sizes - so would be better to get one where 
> replacements are available?
>
> I'm currently seeing an LX m580, xt M760, an xtr m951 and xtr m952 around 
> that range on ebay in different used conditions...and then the prices rise 
> very quickly! 
>
> Thanks a lot for guiding :)
> Chintan
>

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