Re: [RBW] Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes

2024-08-29 Thread Fred Marsh 
Ah, in that case I would try it if you have a wheelset handy. I have a few
650 x 47 pairs of tires I can send if you want to try fitting them.

On Thu, Aug 29, 2024 at 12:44 PM Chintan Jadwani 
wrote:

> Sorry, by skinny i meant 'skinnier', somewhere around 1.5 to 1.75"..
> the bike can clear 2.5" I think with 26".
>
> On Thu, 29 Aug, 2024, 10:30 pm Fred Marsh,  wrote:
>
>> If the bike is optimized for 26 x 2.1 tires, you won't get the real
>> benefit of going to 650b IMHO.
>> If you could only fit skinny 650b tires, I don't think it's worth it.
>> I converted my Schwinn Moab bc it fit 650 x 47 tires, which drastically
>> improved the ride.
>>
>> - Fred,
>>  Mount Prospect, IL
>>
>> Dare I say this thing rides as nice as my Bleriot:
>> https://i.imgur.com/yqNJsvQ.jpg
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 11:19:33 PM UTC-5 iamkeith wrote:
>>
>>> ...I meant to say that it won't materially affect your "steering"
>>> geometry.  If the overall diameter doesn't change, the trail calculation
>>> doesn't change.  Additionally, there's a "pneumatic" trail   effect, where
>>> a fatter tire feels like it has more trail.  So a slightly taller tire with
>>> less volume might feel exactly the same.
>>>
>>> But it will most definitely impact you "handling."  The smaller wheels
>>> have a lower gyroscopic center of gravity, and more stable handling as a
>>> result. They also have less inertia, and are easier to accelerate.  (The
>>> flip side is that they don't carry speed/momentum as well, but that's not
>>> such an issue on paved surfaces as it is on rocky trails.)
>>>
>>> Keep in mind that this all assumes that you are using high-quality,
>>> lightweight, supple tires and tubes, filled with weightless air.  in such
>>> case, the rim is the heavy part of the wheel.  If you were comparing heavy
>>> tubes and tires on a 26" setup to lightweight tubes and tires on a 650b
>>> setup, then it's not really a fair comparison.
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 9:49:05 PM UTC-6 iamkeith wrote:
>>>
 If you want my opinion, I can't imagine why in the world you'd want to
 do this.  I have 26" bikes, 650b bikes and 700c bikes, but I rarely ride
 anything but the 26" bikes.  They are just better in every possible way...
 except perhaps aesthetics... to some people, but not me.   (I'm speaking of
 road bikes, not mountain bikes, where the bigger wheels actually do have an
 advantage.)  I agree that it won't materially affect your handling.  In
 most cases, what it will do is simply limit the size of the tire you can
 fit, so that you basically have the same overall diameter wheel but have to
 deal with harsher-riding, more-inflated tires as a result.  And your
 braking power will be reduced, because you have less leverage at the brake
 arm.  (At least for cantis.)If by some chance you CAN fit a taller
 overall wheel, you'll have a higher bottom bracket and higher center of
 gravity and reduced stand-over clearance - all of which are negatives to my
 way of thinking - but especially on a loaded touring bike.  You have fewer
 tire choices in 650b than 26".  If you have 135mm rear end spacing and QR
 dropouts, high-end 26" wheels are relatively easy to find on the second
 hand market (or in bike coops/shops, if you're on tour) because they
 dominated the mountain bike market for so long.  Finding good, im-brake
 650b rims/wheels is already a challenge.

 On Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 12:17:26 PM UTC-6
 [email protected] wrote:

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> For sure when I did a 700 C X 25mm to 650b 38/42 mm I noticed no
> difference
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>
>
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
>
>
>
> Bernard F. Duhon
>
> *From:* Will Boericke 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 28, 2024 12:32 PM
> *To:* Bernard Duhon 
> *Cc:* 650b <[email protected]>; [email protected]
> *Subject:* Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes
>
>
>
> I am skeptical of the
> wheel-size-dramatcially-affects-geometry argument.  I can only argue from
> analogy - my gravel bike wears 700x42 normally, but I am equally happy on
> 650x48.  Crank strike is more of an issue, but I just watch out for that
> and use crank boots.  BB is definitely lower, but I honestly don't really
> notice.  I notice no difference in handling, other than maybe slightly
> snappier steering.
>
>
>
> Will
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 28, 2024 at 11:04 AM Bernard Duhon <
> [email protected]> wrote:
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Re: [RBW] Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes

2024-08-29 Thread Chintan Jadwani 
Sorry, by skinny i meant 'skinnier', somewhere around 1.5 to 1.75"..
the bike can clear 2.5" I think with 26".

On Thu, 29 Aug, 2024, 10:30 pm Fred Marsh,  wrote:

> If the bike is optimized for 26 x 2.1 tires, you won't get the real
> benefit of going to 650b IMHO.
> If you could only fit skinny 650b tires, I don't think it's worth it.
> I converted my Schwinn Moab bc it fit 650 x 47 tires, which drastically
> improved the ride.
>
> - Fred,
>  Mount Prospect, IL
>
> Dare I say this thing rides as nice as my Bleriot:
> https://i.imgur.com/yqNJsvQ.jpg
>
> On Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 11:19:33 PM UTC-5 iamkeith wrote:
>
>> ...I meant to say that it won't materially affect your "steering"
>> geometry.  If the overall diameter doesn't change, the trail calculation
>> doesn't change.  Additionally, there's a "pneumatic" trail   effect, where
>> a fatter tire feels like it has more trail.  So a slightly taller tire with
>> less volume might feel exactly the same.
>>
>> But it will most definitely impact you "handling."  The smaller wheels
>> have a lower gyroscopic center of gravity, and more stable handling as a
>> result. They also have less inertia, and are easier to accelerate.  (The
>> flip side is that they don't carry speed/momentum as well, but that's not
>> such an issue on paved surfaces as it is on rocky trails.)
>>
>> Keep in mind that this all assumes that you are using high-quality,
>> lightweight, supple tires and tubes, filled with weightless air.  in such
>> case, the rim is the heavy part of the wheel.  If you were comparing heavy
>> tubes and tires on a 26" setup to lightweight tubes and tires on a 650b
>> setup, then it's not really a fair comparison.
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 9:49:05 PM UTC-6 iamkeith wrote:
>>
>>> If you want my opinion, I can't imagine why in the world you'd want to
>>> do this.  I have 26" bikes, 650b bikes and 700c bikes, but I rarely ride
>>> anything but the 26" bikes.  They are just better in every possible way...
>>> except perhaps aesthetics... to some people, but not me.   (I'm speaking of
>>> road bikes, not mountain bikes, where the bigger wheels actually do have an
>>> advantage.)  I agree that it won't materially affect your handling.  In
>>> most cases, what it will do is simply limit the size of the tire you can
>>> fit, so that you basically have the same overall diameter wheel but have to
>>> deal with harsher-riding, more-inflated tires as a result.  And your
>>> braking power will be reduced, because you have less leverage at the brake
>>> arm.  (At least for cantis.)If by some chance you CAN fit a taller
>>> overall wheel, you'll have a higher bottom bracket and higher center of
>>> gravity and reduced stand-over clearance - all of which are negatives to my
>>> way of thinking - but especially on a loaded touring bike.  You have fewer
>>> tire choices in 650b than 26".  If you have 135mm rear end spacing and QR
>>> dropouts, high-end 26" wheels are relatively easy to find on the second
>>> hand market (or in bike coops/shops, if you're on tour) because they
>>> dominated the mountain bike market for so long.  Finding good, im-brake
>>> 650b rims/wheels is already a challenge.
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 12:17:26 PM UTC-6
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>
































 For sure when I did a 700 C X 25mm to 650b 38/42 mm I noticed no
 difference







 Yours sincerely,




 Bernard F. Duhon

 *From:* Will Boericke 
 *Sent:* Wednesday, August 28, 2024 12:32 PM
 *To:* Bernard Duhon 
 *Cc:* 650b <[email protected]>; [email protected]
 *Subject:* Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes



 I am skeptical of the
 wheel-size-dramatcially-affects-geometry argument.  I can only argue from
 analogy - my gravel bike wears 700x42 normally, but I am equally happy on
 650x48.  Crank strike is more of an issue, but I just watch out for that
 and use crank boots.  BB is definitely lower, but I honestly don't really
 notice.  I notice no difference in handling, other than maybe slightly
 snappier steering.



 Will



 On Wed, Aug 28, 2024 at 11:04 AM Bernard Duhon 
 wrote:



































 I have a 26 inch Waterford built touring bike (similar to a Riv
 Atlantis before they went all in on the long chain stays)



 650b will fit and the  XTR v brakes will work. Richard Schwinn
 mentioned that it would alter the steering and mildly recommended against
 it.  The bike was designed for a 26 X 1.6 inch tire.  I have a chart

[RBW] Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes

2024-08-29 Thread Fred Marsh 
If the bike is optimized for 26 x 2.1 tires, you won't get the real benefit 
of going to 650b IMHO.
If you could only fit skinny 650b tires, I don't think it's worth it. 
I converted my Schwinn Moab bc it fit 650 x 47 tires, which drastically 
improved the ride. 

- Fred,
 Mount Prospect, IL

Dare I say this thing rides as nice as my Bleriot:
https://i.imgur.com/yqNJsvQ.jpg

On Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 11:19:33 PM UTC-5 iamkeith wrote:

> ...I meant to say that it won't materially affect your "steering" 
> geometry.  If the overall diameter doesn't change, the trail calculation 
> doesn't change.  Additionally, there's a "pneumatic" trail   effect, where 
> a fatter tire feels like it has more trail.  So a slightly taller tire with 
> less volume might feel exactly the same.
>
> But it will most definitely impact you "handling."  The smaller wheels 
> have a lower gyroscopic center of gravity, and more stable handling as a 
> result. They also have less inertia, and are easier to accelerate.  (The 
> flip side is that they don't carry speed/momentum as well, but that's not 
> such an issue on paved surfaces as it is on rocky trails.)
>
> Keep in mind that this all assumes that you are using high-quality, 
> lightweight, supple tires and tubes, filled with weightless air.  in such 
> case, the rim is the heavy part of the wheel.  If you were comparing heavy 
> tubes and tires on a 26" setup to lightweight tubes and tires on a 650b 
> setup, then it's not really a fair comparison.
>
> On Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 9:49:05 PM UTC-6 iamkeith wrote:
>
>> If you want my opinion, I can't imagine why in the world you'd want to do 
>> this.  I have 26" bikes, 650b bikes and 700c bikes, but I rarely ride 
>> anything but the 26" bikes.  They are just better in every possible way...  
>> except perhaps aesthetics... to some people, but not me.   (I'm speaking of 
>> road bikes, not mountain bikes, where the bigger wheels actually do have an 
>> advantage.)  I agree that it won't materially affect your handling.  In 
>> most cases, what it will do is simply limit the size of the tire you can 
>> fit, so that you basically have the same overall diameter wheel but have to 
>> deal with harsher-riding, more-inflated tires as a result.  And your 
>> braking power will be reduced, because you have less leverage at the brake 
>> arm.  (At least for cantis.)If by some chance you CAN fit a taller 
>> overall wheel, you'll have a higher bottom bracket and higher center of 
>> gravity and reduced stand-over clearance - all of which are negatives to my 
>> way of thinking - but especially on a loaded touring bike.  You have fewer 
>> tire choices in 650b than 26".  If you have 135mm rear end spacing and QR 
>> dropouts, high-end 26" wheels are relatively easy to find on the second 
>> hand market (or in bike coops/shops, if you're on tour) because they 
>> dominated the mountain bike market for so long.  Finding good, im-brake 
>> 650b rims/wheels is already a challenge.
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 12:17:26 PM UTC-6 
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> For sure when I did a 700 C X 25mm to 650b 38/42 mm I noticed no 
>>> difference
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Yours sincerely, 
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>> Bernard F. Duhon
>>>
>>> *From:* Will Boericke  
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 28, 2024 12:32 PM
>>> *To:* Bernard Duhon 
>>> *Cc:* 650b <[email protected]>; [email protected]
>>> *Subject:* Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> I am skeptical of the 
>>> wheel-size-dramatcially-affects-geometry argument.  I can only argue from 
>>> analogy - my gravel bike wears 700x42 normally, but I am equally happy on 
>>> 650x48.  Crank strike is more of an issue, but I just watch out for that 
>>> and use crank boots.  BB is definitely lower, but I honestly don't really 
>>> notice.  I notice no difference in handling, other than maybe slightly 
>>> snappier steering.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Will
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 28, 2024 at 11:04 AM Bernard Duhon  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> I have a 26 inch Waterford built touring bike (similar to a Riv Atlantis 
>>> before they went all in on the long chain stays)
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> 650b will fit and the  XTR v brakes will work. Richard Schwinn mentioned 
>>> that it would alter the steering and mildly recommended against it.  The 
>>> bike was designed for a 26 X 1.6 inch tire.  I have a chart that shows the 
>>> difference in will circumference is just a few millimeters. 640mm V 670mm.  
>>> However we know that just a few millimeters change of frame geometry is a 
>>> big deal.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Other t

RE: [RBW] Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes

2024-08-29 Thread Bernard Duhon 


















The XtR brake reach for 650 B might need a little extra reach I would use my 
brake pads that offset about an extra centimeter of reach.

I have used those pads to get extra distance I need on the brakes from 700 C to 
650 B .


Yours sincerely,


Bernard F. Duhon

From: [email protected]  On 
Behalf Of chintan jadwani
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2024 10:19 AM
To: RBW Owners Bunch 
Subject: [RBW] Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes

my intent to try and fit 650b/27.5 wheels on my 26" bike was twofold - due to 
the gravel bike popularity, second-hand 27.5" wheelset often come up that I can 
take up as a spare + the availability of supple 650 tyres compared to 26 inch; 
second was my bike is designed around 26x2.0+ so 650b gives the opportunity for 
a slimmer tyre without messing the BB height - 26x1.5 on my bike will be too 
low for instance.
@bernard - have you tried your xtr v-brake on the 650b wheel or is that an 
assumption?
On Thursday, August 29, 2024 at 9:49:33 AM UTC+5:30 iamkeith wrote:
...I meant to say that it won't materially affect your "steering" geometry.  If 
the overall diameter doesn't change, the trail calculation doesn't change.  
Additionally, there's a "pneumatic" trail   effect, where a fatter tire feels 
like it has more trail.  So a slightly taller tire with less volume might feel 
exactly the same.

But it will most definitely impact you "handling."  The smaller wheels have a 
lower gyroscopic center of gravity, and more stable handling as a result. They 
also have less inertia, and are easier to accelerate.  (The flip side is that 
they don't carry speed/momentum as well, but that's not such an issue on paved 
surfaces as it is on rocky trails.)

Keep in mind that this all assumes that you are using high-quality, 
lightweight, supple tires and tubes, filled with weightless air.  in such case, 
the rim is the heavy part of the wheel.  If you were comparing heavy tubes and 
tires on a 26" setup to lightweight tubes and tires on a 650b setup, then it's 
not really a fair comparison.
On Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 9:49:05 PM UTC-6 iamkeith wrote:
If you want my opinion, I can't imagine why in the world you'd want to do this. 
 I have 26" bikes, 650b bikes and 700c bikes, but I rarely ride anything but 
the 26" bikes.  They are just better in every possible way...  except perhaps 
aesthetics... to some people, but not me.   (I'm speaking of road bikes, not 
mountain bikes, where the bigger wheels actually do have an advantage.)  I 
agree that it won't materially affect your handling.  In most cases, what it 
will do is simply limit the size of the tire you can fit, so that you basically 
have the same overall diameter wheel but have to deal with harsher-riding, 
more-inflated tires as a result.  And your braking power will be reduced, 
because you have less leverage at the brake arm.  (At least for cantis.)If 
by some chance you CAN fit a taller overall wheel, you'll have a higher bottom 
bracket and higher center of gravity and reduced stand-over clearance - all of 
which are negatives to my way of thinking - but especially on a loaded touring 
bike.  You have fewer tire choices in 650b than 26".  If you have 135mm rear 
end spacing and QR dropouts, high-end 26" wheels are relatively easy to find on 
the second hand market (or in bike coops/shops, if you're on tour) because they 
dominated the mountain bike market for so long.  Finding good, im-brake 650b 
rims/wheels is already a challenge.
On Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 12:17:26 PM UTC-6 
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
















For sure when I did a 700 C X 25mm to 650b 38/42 mm I noticed no difference



Yours sincerely,


Bernard F. Duhon
From: Will Boericke mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2024 12:32 PM
To: Bernard Duhon mailto:[email protected]>>
Cc: 650b <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>; 
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes

I am skeptical of the wheel-size-dramatcially-affects-geometry argument.  I can 
only argue from analogy - my gravel bike wears 700x42 normally, but I am 
equally happy on 650x48.  Crank strike is more of an issue, but I just watch 
out for that and use crank boots.  BB is definitely lower, but I honestly don't 
really notice.  I notice no difference in handling, other than maybe slightly 
snappier steering.

Will

On Wed, Aug 28, 2024 at 11:04 AM Bernard Duhon 
mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

















I have a 26 inch Waterford built touring bike (similar to a Riv Atlantis before 
they went all in on the long chain stays)

650b will fit and the  XTR v brakes will work. Richard

[RBW] Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes

2024-08-29 Thread chintan jadwani 
my intent to try and fit 650b/27.5 wheels on my 26" bike was twofold - due 
to the gravel bike popularity, second-hand 27.5" wheelset often come up 
that I can take up as a spare + the availability of supple 650 tyres 
compared to 26 inch; second was my bike is designed around 26x2.0+ so 650b 
gives the opportunity for a slimmer tyre without messing the BB height - 
26x1.5 on my bike will be too low for instance.

@bernard - have you tried your xtr v-brake on the 650b wheel or is that an 
assumption?
On Thursday, August 29, 2024 at 9:49:33 AM UTC+5:30 iamkeith wrote:

> ...I meant to say that it won't materially affect your "steering" 
> geometry.  If the overall diameter doesn't change, the trail calculation 
> doesn't change.  Additionally, there's a "pneumatic" trail   effect, where 
> a fatter tire feels like it has more trail.  So a slightly taller tire with 
> less volume might feel exactly the same.
>
> But it will most definitely impact you "handling."  The smaller wheels 
> have a lower gyroscopic center of gravity, and more stable handling as a 
> result. They also have less inertia, and are easier to accelerate.  (The 
> flip side is that they don't carry speed/momentum as well, but that's not 
> such an issue on paved surfaces as it is on rocky trails.)
>
> Keep in mind that this all assumes that you are using high-quality, 
> lightweight, supple tires and tubes, filled with weightless air.  in such 
> case, the rim is the heavy part of the wheel.  If you were comparing heavy 
> tubes and tires on a 26" setup to lightweight tubes and tires on a 650b 
> setup, then it's not really a fair comparison.
>
> On Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 9:49:05 PM UTC-6 iamkeith wrote:
>
>> If you want my opinion, I can't imagine why in the world you'd want to do 
>> this.  I have 26" bikes, 650b bikes and 700c bikes, but I rarely ride 
>> anything but the 26" bikes.  They are just better in every possible way...  
>> except perhaps aesthetics... to some people, but not me.   (I'm speaking of 
>> road bikes, not mountain bikes, where the bigger wheels actually do have an 
>> advantage.)  I agree that it won't materially affect your handling.  In 
>> most cases, what it will do is simply limit the size of the tire you can 
>> fit, so that you basically have the same overall diameter wheel but have to 
>> deal with harsher-riding, more-inflated tires as a result.  And your 
>> braking power will be reduced, because you have less leverage at the brake 
>> arm.  (At least for cantis.)If by some chance you CAN fit a taller 
>> overall wheel, you'll have a higher bottom bracket and higher center of 
>> gravity and reduced stand-over clearance - all of which are negatives to my 
>> way of thinking - but especially on a loaded touring bike.  You have fewer 
>> tire choices in 650b than 26".  If you have 135mm rear end spacing and QR 
>> dropouts, high-end 26" wheels are relatively easy to find on the second 
>> hand market (or in bike coops/shops, if you're on tour) because they 
>> dominated the mountain bike market for so long.  Finding good, im-brake 
>> 650b rims/wheels is already a challenge.
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 12:17:26 PM UTC-6 
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> For sure when I did a 700 C X 25mm to 650b 38/42 mm I noticed no 
>>> difference
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Yours sincerely, 
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>> Bernard F. Duhon
>>>
>>> *From:* Will Boericke  
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 28, 2024 12:32 PM
>>> *To:* Bernard Duhon 
>>> *Cc:* 650b <[email protected]>; [email protected]
>>> *Subject:* Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> I am skeptical of the 
>>> wheel-size-dramatcially-affects-geometry argument.  I can only argue from 
>>> analogy - my gravel bike wears 700x42 normally, but I am equally happy on 
>>> 650x48.  Crank strike is more of an issue, but I just watch out for that 
>>> and use crank boots.  BB is definitely lower, but I honestly don't really 
>>> notice.  I notice no difference in handling, other than maybe slightly 
>>> snappier steering.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Will
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 28, 2024 at 11:04 AM Bernard Duhon  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> I have a 26 inch Waterford built touring bike (similar to a Riv Atlantis 
>>> before they went all in on the long chain stays)
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> 650b will fit and the  XTR v brakes will work. Richard Schwinn mentioned 
>>> that it would alter the steering and mildly recommended against it.  The 
>>> bike was designed for a 26 X 1.6 inch tire.  I have a chart that shows the 
>>> difference in will circumference is just a few millimeters. 640mm

[RBW] Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes

2024-08-28 Thread iamkeith 
...I meant to say that it won't materially affect your "steering" 
geometry.  If the overall diameter doesn't change, the trail calculation 
doesn't change.  Additionally, there's a "pneumatic" trail   effect, where 
a fatter tire feels like it has more trail.  So a slightly taller tire with 
less volume might feel exactly the same.

But it will most definitely impact you "handling."  The smaller wheels have 
a lower gyroscopic center of gravity, and more stable handling as a result. 
They also have less inertia, and are easier to accelerate.  (The flip side 
is that they don't carry speed/momentum as well, but that's not such an 
issue on paved surfaces as it is on rocky trails.)

Keep in mind that this all assumes that you are using high-quality, 
lightweight, supple tires and tubes, filled with weightless air.  in such 
case, the rim is the heavy part of the wheel.  If you were comparing heavy 
tubes and tires on a 26" setup to lightweight tubes and tires on a 650b 
setup, then it's not really a fair comparison.

On Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 9:49:05 PM UTC-6 iamkeith wrote:

> If you want my opinion, I can't imagine why in the world you'd want to do 
> this.  I have 26" bikes, 650b bikes and 700c bikes, but I rarely ride 
> anything but the 26" bikes.  They are just better in every possible way...  
> except perhaps aesthetics... to some people, but not me.   (I'm speaking of 
> road bikes, not mountain bikes, where the bigger wheels actually do have an 
> advantage.)  I agree that it won't materially affect your handling.  In 
> most cases, what it will do is simply limit the size of the tire you can 
> fit, so that you basically have the same overall diameter wheel but have to 
> deal with harsher-riding, more-inflated tires as a result.  And your 
> braking power will be reduced, because you have less leverage at the brake 
> arm.  (At least for cantis.)If by some chance you CAN fit a taller 
> overall wheel, you'll have a higher bottom bracket and higher center of 
> gravity and reduced stand-over clearance - all of which are negatives to my 
> way of thinking - but especially on a loaded touring bike.  You have fewer 
> tire choices in 650b than 26".  If you have 135mm rear end spacing and QR 
> dropouts, high-end 26" wheels are relatively easy to find on the second 
> hand market (or in bike coops/shops, if you're on tour) because they 
> dominated the mountain bike market for so long.  Finding good, im-brake 
> 650b rims/wheels is already a challenge.
>
> On Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 12:17:26 PM UTC-6 [email protected] 
> wrote:
>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> For sure when I did a 700 C X 25mm to 650b 38/42 mm I noticed no 
>> difference
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> Yours sincerely, 
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>> Bernard F. Duhon
>>
>> *From:* Will Boericke  
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 28, 2024 12:32 PM
>> *To:* Bernard Duhon 
>> *Cc:* 650b <[email protected]>; [email protected]
>> *Subject:* Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes
>>
>>  
>>
>> I am skeptical of the wheel-size-dramatcially-affects-geometry argument.  
>> I can only argue from analogy - my gravel bike wears 700x42 normally, but I 
>> am equally happy on 650x48.  Crank strike is more of an issue, but I just 
>> watch out for that and use crank boots.  BB is definitely lower, but I 
>> honestly don't really notice.  I notice no difference in handling, other 
>> than maybe slightly snappier steering.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Will
>>
>>  
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 28, 2024 at 11:04 AM Bernard Duhon  
>> wrote:
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> I have a 26 inch Waterford built touring bike (similar to a Riv Atlantis 
>> before they went all in on the long chain stays)
>>
>>  
>>
>> 650b will fit and the  XTR v brakes will work. Richard Schwinn mentioned 
>> that it would alter the steering and mildly recommended against it.  The 
>> bike was designed for a 26 X 1.6 inch tire.  I have a chart that shows the 
>> difference in will circumference is just a few millimeters. 640mm V 670mm.  
>> However we know that just a few millimeters change of frame geometry is a 
>> big deal.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Other than availability of tires/fendors (can’t fit larger than actual 26 
>> X 47 mm tire)  
>>
>>  
>>
>> what advantage do you see on either the handling/speed/bump roll over of 
>> the changeup from's 26 to 650 B
>>
>>  
>>
>> thank you,  ye of more experience than I.
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> Yours sincerely, 
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>> Bernard F. Duhon
>>
>>  
>>
>> *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Will 
>> Boericke
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 27, 2024 7:44 PM
>> *To:* 650b <[email protected]>
>> *Subject:* Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes
>>
>>  
>>
>> I built a 650b on 26

[RBW] Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes

2024-08-28 Thread iamkeith 
If you want my opinion, I can't imagine why in the world you'd want to do 
this.  I have 26" bikes, 650b bikes and 700c bikes, but I rarely ride 
anything but the 26" bikes.  They are just better in every possible way...  
except perhaps aesthetics... to some people, but not me.   (I'm speaking of 
road bikes, not mountain bikes, where the bigger wheels actually do have an 
advantage.)  I agree that it won't materially affect your handling.  In 
most cases, what it will do is simply limit the size of the tire you can 
fit, so that you basically have the same overall diameter wheel but have to 
deal with harsher-riding, more-inflated tires as a result.  And your 
braking power will be reduced, because you have less leverage at the brake 
arm.  (At least for cantis.)If by some chance you CAN fit a taller 
overall wheel, you'll have a higher bottom bracket and higher center of 
gravity and reduced stand-over clearance - all of which are negatives to my 
way of thinking - but especially on a loaded touring bike.  You have fewer 
tire choices in 650b than 26".  If you have 135mm rear end spacing and QR 
dropouts, high-end 26" wheels are relatively easy to find on the second 
hand market (or in bike coops/shops, if you're on tour) because they 
dominated the mountain bike market for so long.  Finding good, im-brake 
650b rims/wheels is already a challenge.

On Wednesday, August 28, 2024 at 12:17:26 PM UTC-6 [email protected] 
wrote:

>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> For sure when I did a 700 C X 25mm to 650b 38/42 mm I noticed no difference
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Yours sincerely, 
>
>  
>
>
> Bernard F. Duhon
>
> *From:* Will Boericke  
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 28, 2024 12:32 PM
> *To:* Bernard Duhon 
> *Cc:* 650b <[email protected]>; [email protected]
> *Subject:* Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes
>
>  
>
> I am skeptical of the wheel-size-dramatcially-affects-geometry argument.  
> I can only argue from analogy - my gravel bike wears 700x42 normally, but I 
> am equally happy on 650x48.  Crank strike is more of an issue, but I just 
> watch out for that and use crank boots.  BB is definitely lower, but I 
> honestly don't really notice.  I notice no difference in handling, other 
> than maybe slightly snappier steering.
>
>  
>
> Will
>
>  
>
> On Wed, Aug 28, 2024 at 11:04 AM Bernard Duhon  
> wrote:
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> I have a 26 inch Waterford built touring bike (similar to a Riv Atlantis 
> before they went all in on the long chain stays)
>
>  
>
> 650b will fit and the  XTR v brakes will work. Richard Schwinn mentioned 
> that it would alter the steering and mildly recommended against it.  The 
> bike was designed for a 26 X 1.6 inch tire.  I have a chart that shows the 
> difference in will circumference is just a few millimeters. 640mm V 670mm.  
> However we know that just a few millimeters change of frame geometry is a 
> big deal.
>
>  
>
> Other than availability of tires/fendors (can’t fit larger than actual 26 
> X 47 mm tire)  
>
>  
>
> what advantage do you see on either the handling/speed/bump roll over of 
> the changeup from's 26 to 650 B
>
>  
>
> thank you,  ye of more experience than I.
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Yours sincerely, 
>
>  
>
>
> Bernard F. Duhon
>
>  
>
> *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Will 
> Boericke
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 27, 2024 7:44 PM
> *To:* 650b <[email protected]>
> *Subject:* Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes
>
>  
>
> I built a 650b on 26 Trek 850 frame with the Chinese version 
> 
>  
> (maybe the same thing?).  They worked really well.  Granted, I sold the 
> bike pretty quickly.
>
>  
>
> Will near Boston
>
>  
>
>  
>
> On Monday, August 26, 2024 at 11:00:13 AM UTC-4 [email protected] wrote:
>
> Yes, I'm using on a 1990-ish (non-U-brake era) Diamond Back Ascent basket 
> bike. I haven't shredded with it, but they stop my schlubby self and cargo 
> with aplomb. I imagine that it will be even better when I get around to 
> Kool Stops
>
>  
>
> RF
>
> On Monday, August 26, 2024 at 6:59:56 AM UTC-5 [email protected] wrote:
>
> Yes I have used them for this purpose on '89 Trek 950.  
>
> Originally, had Tektro cantis (CR720s) which looked great but they worked 
> only ok due to where I could get the pads to align on the rim.  Swapped in 
> these Pro-Max v brakes (108mm, silver version) and the braking dramatically 
> improved as they offered better range to get pads in better position, plus 
> v brake leverage/power.
>
> These are a great option.  Highly recommend.
>
> Josh Z
>
>  
>
> On Mon, Aug 26, 2024, 4:40 AM chintan jadwani  
> wrote:
>
> Has anyone tried the promax p-1 v-brake

[RBW] RE: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes

2024-08-28 Thread Bernard Duhon 
















For sure when I did a 700 C X 25mm to 650b 38/42 mm I noticed no difference



Yours sincerely,


Bernard F. Duhon
From: Will Boericke 
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2024 12:32 PM
To: Bernard Duhon 
Cc: 650b <[email protected]>; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes

I am skeptical of the wheel-size-dramatcially-affects-geometry argument.  I can 
only argue from analogy - my gravel bike wears 700x42 normally, but I am 
equally happy on 650x48.  Crank strike is more of an issue, but I just watch 
out for that and use crank boots.  BB is definitely lower, but I honestly don't 
really notice.  I notice no difference in handling, other than maybe slightly 
snappier steering.

Will

On Wed, Aug 28, 2024 at 11:04 AM Bernard Duhon 
mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

















I have a 26 inch Waterford built touring bike (similar to a Riv Atlantis before 
they went all in on the long chain stays)

650b will fit and the  XTR v brakes will work. Richard Schwinn mentioned that 
it would alter the steering and mildly recommended against it.  The bike was 
designed for a 26 X 1.6 inch tire.  I have a chart that shows the difference in 
will circumference is just a few millimeters. 640mm V 670mm.  However we know 
that just a few millimeters change of frame geometry is a big deal.

Other than availability of tires/fendors (can’t fit larger than actual 26 X 47 
mm tire)

what advantage do you see on either the handling/speed/bump roll over of the 
changeup from's 26 to 650 B

thank you,  ye of more experience than I.



Yours sincerely,


Bernard F. Duhon

From: [email protected] 
<[email protected]> On Behalf Of Will Boericke
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2024 7:44 PM
To: 650b <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes

I built a 650b on 26 Trek 850 frame with the Chinese 
version
 (maybe the same thing?).  They worked really well.  Granted, I sold the bike 
pretty quickly.

Will near Boston


On Monday, August 26, 2024 at 11:00:13 AM UTC-4 
[email protected] wrote:
Yes, I'm using on a 1990-ish (non-U-brake era) Diamond Back Ascent basket bike. 
I haven't shredded with it, but they stop my schlubby self and cargo with 
aplomb. I imagine that it will be even better when I get around to Kool Stops

RF
On Monday, August 26, 2024 at 6:59:56 AM UTC-5 
[email protected] wrote:

Yes I have used them for this purpose on '89 Trek 950.

Originally, had Tektro cantis (CR720s) which looked great but they worked only 
ok due to where I could get the pads to align on the rim.  Swapped in these 
Pro-Max v brakes (108mm, silver version) and the braking dramatically improved 
as they offered better range to get pads in better position, plus v brake 
leverage/power.

These are a great option.  Highly recommend.

Josh Z

On Mon, Aug 26, 2024, 4:40 AM chintan jadwani 
mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Has anyone tried the promax p-1 
v-brakes on a 26" to 
650b conversion?
They have about 35mm of vertical brake pad adjustment so probably they should 
work...

>From what I read, they are similar (cheaper and less premium) to the box three 
>v-brake.
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[RBW] Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes

2024-08-28 Thread Will Boericke 
I am skeptical of the wheel-size-dramatcially-affects-geometry argument.  I
can only argue from analogy - my gravel bike wears 700x42 normally, but I
am equally happy on 650x48.  Crank strike is more of an issue, but I just
watch out for that and use crank boots.  BB is definitely lower, but I
honestly don't really notice.  I notice no difference in handling, other
than maybe slightly snappier steering.

Will

On Wed, Aug 28, 2024 at 11:04 AM Bernard Duhon 
wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have a 26 inch Waterford built touring bike (similar to a Riv Atlantis
> before they went all in on the long chain stays)
>
>
>
> 650b will fit and the  XTR v brakes will work. Richard Schwinn mentioned
> that it would alter the steering and mildly recommended against it.  The
> bike was designed for a 26 X 1.6 inch tire.  I have a chart that shows the
> difference in will circumference is just a few millimeters. 640mm V 670mm.
> However we know that just a few millimeters change of frame geometry is a
> big deal.
>
>
>
> Other than availability of tires/fendors (can’t fit larger than actual 26
> X 47 mm tire)
>
>
>
> what advantage do you see on either the handling/speed/bump roll over of
> the changeup from's 26 to 650 B
>
>
>
> thank you,  ye of more experience than I.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
>
>
>
> Bernard F. Duhon
>
>
>
> *From:* [email protected] <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Will
> Boericke
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 27, 2024 7:44 PM
> *To:* 650b <[email protected]>
> *Subject:* Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes
>
>
>
> I built a 650b on 26 Trek 850 frame with the Chinese version
> 
> (maybe the same thing?).  They worked really well.  Granted, I sold the
> bike pretty quickly.
>
>
>
> Will near Boston
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, August 26, 2024 at 11:00:13 AM UTC-4 [email protected] wrote:
>
> Yes, I'm using on a 1990-ish (non-U-brake era) Diamond Back Ascent basket
> bike. I haven't shredded with it, but they stop my schlubby self and cargo
> with aplomb. I imagine that it will be even better when I get around to
> Kool Stops
>
>
>
> RF
>
> On Monday, August 26, 2024 at 6:59:56 AM UTC-5 [email protected] wrote:
>
> Yes I have used them for this purpose on '89 Trek 950.
>
> Originally, had Tektro cantis (CR720s) which looked great but they worked
> only ok due to where I could get the pads to align on the rim.  Swapped in
> these Pro-Max v brakes (108mm, silver version) and the braking dramatically
> improved as they offered better range to get pads in better position, plus
> v brake leverage/power.
>
> These are a great option.  Highly recommend.
>
> Josh Z
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 26, 2024, 4:40 AM chintan jadwani 
> wrote:
>
> Has anyone tried the promax p-1 v-brakes
>  on a 26" to 650b
> conversion?
>
> They have about 35mm of vertical brake pad adjustment so probably they
> should work...
>
>
>
> From what I read, they are similar (cheaper and less premium) to the box
> three v-brake .
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "650b" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to [email protected].
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/650b/8332773a-bd54-416f-a4b3-b598ba97fb26n%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>
> --
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> 
> .
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[RBW] RE: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes

2024-08-28 Thread Bernard Duhon 

















I have a 26 inch Waterford built touring bike (similar to a Riv Atlantis before 
they went all in on the long chain stays)

650b will fit and the  XTR v brakes will work. Richard Schwinn mentioned that 
it would alter the steering and mildly recommended against it.  The bike was 
designed for a 26 X 1.6 inch tire.  I have a chart that shows the difference in 
will circumference is just a few millimeters. 640mm V 670mm.  However we know 
that just a few millimeters change of frame geometry is a big deal.

Other than availability of tires/fendors (can’t fit larger than actual 26 X 47 
mm tire)

what advantage do you see on either the handling/speed/bump roll over of the 
changeup from's 26 to 650 B

thank you,  ye of more experience than I.



Yours sincerely,


Bernard F. Duhon

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Will Boericke
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2024 7:44 PM
To: 650b <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [650B] 650b on 26" frame - promax p-1 brakes

I built a 650b on 26 Trek 850 frame with the Chinese 
version
 (maybe the same thing?).  They worked really well.  Granted, I sold the bike 
pretty quickly.

Will near Boston


On Monday, August 26, 2024 at 11:00:13 AM UTC-4 
[email protected] wrote:
Yes, I'm using on a 1990-ish (non-U-brake era) Diamond Back Ascent basket bike. 
I haven't shredded with it, but they stop my schlubby self and cargo with 
aplomb. I imagine that it will be even better when I get around to Kool Stops

RF
On Monday, August 26, 2024 at 6:59:56 AM UTC-5 [email protected] wrote:

Yes I have used them for this purpose on '89 Trek 950.

Originally, had Tektro cantis (CR720s) which looked great but they worked only 
ok due to where I could get the pads to align on the rim.  Swapped in these 
Pro-Max v brakes (108mm, silver version) and the braking dramatically improved 
as they offered better range to get pads in better position, plus v brake 
leverage/power.

These are a great option.  Highly recommend.

Josh Z

On Mon, Aug 26, 2024, 4:40 AM chintan jadwani 
mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Has anyone tried the promax p-1 
v-brakes on a 26" to 
650b conversion?
They have about 35mm of vertical brake pad adjustment so probably they should 
work...

>From what I read, they are similar (cheaper and less premium) to the box three 
>v-brake.
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