[RBW] Re: Brake comparison again
Cable clamped too short? This happened on my wife's Raleigh bike. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Brake comparison again
Thank you Jim. That is very helpful. On Tuesday, October 25, 2016 at 11:45:36 AM UTC-4, Cyclofiend Jim wrote: > > I would say it's consistent with my experience. > > "Modulation" gets used a lot around bicycle brakes, and a lot of time very > imprecisely. In this case - accurately - we're talking about the range of > response. There were a few good articles over the years - one in an Old > Reader and another by Keith Bontrager where they wrote clearly about this. > Both those articles appeared as V-brakes (technically "Linear Pull" > brakes) became the norm (much as hub-mounted disc brakes are now). > > One of the better examples I've heard was a music amplifier - one example > with a knob that increased output volume 1 dB for every 360 degree turn, > and one that increased 100 dB in a quarter turn. They both will get to the > same place, but the former takes longer. > > Translating that to brakes, the LP brakes shifted the mechanical advantage > to the brake arm, by requiring a lever that pulled more cable over the same > distance. Since you have limited real estate between your brake lever at > rest and your handlebar (which prevents further movement), you create the > same difference. > > If you grew up using cantilever brakes, you got used to a longer range of > lever feedback. Making the change to LP brakes meant learning to lighten > up your touch on the lever, and learn precisely where the "sweet spot" was. > One of the best/longest nose wheelies I ever rode was after grabbling a > "canti" handful of lever on a LP-equipped mtb. > > In other words, I had to spend some time relearning lever technique to > control a LP-equipped bike. > > Yep - it's real. > > NOTE: Modulation (the _range_ of response) is different than "spongey" > (high Mechanical Advantage) vs. "firm" (low MA). Sheldon wrote well on > that - http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html > Also - there have been attempts over the years to increase the brake > pressure in a non-linear way - Shimano Servo-Wave levers and the Scott > Self-Energizing brakes, for example. > > On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 11:10:30 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote: >> >> I have lots of experience with bunches of SP & canti brakes, along with >> assorted levers, but very little with V brakes and none with disks. During >> the last month I have had the opportunity to try both out. We have test >> ridden two tandems (a DaVinci with ICS and a CoMotion with a Rolhoff). >> Much to my surprise I could not tell much difference between those to sets >> of disk brakes and the neo retros on our tandem. Both the power and >> modulation felt very similar. I am now visiting my son in El Cerrito and >> we borrowed a bike with Tectro V brakes. I found them very powerful but >> the front brake had almost no modulation at all. Just the slightest touch >> of the lever brought the bike to a complete stop. >> >> Is this typical of V brakes? Do others who have tried these have a >> similar impression? >> >> Michael >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Brake comparison again
I would say it's consistent with my experience. "Modulation" gets used a lot around bicycle brakes, and a lot of time very imprecisely. In this case - accurately - we're talking about the range of response. There were a few good articles over the years - one in an Old Reader and another by Keith Bontrager where they wrote clearly about this. Both those articles appeared as V-brakes (technically "Linear Pull" brakes) became the norm (much as hub-mounted disc brakes are now). One of the better examples I've heard was a music amplifier - one example with a knob that increased output volume 1 dB for every 360 degree turn, and one that increased 100 dB in a quarter turn. They both will get to the same place, but the former takes longer. Translating that to brakes, the LP brakes shifted the mechanical advantage to the brake arm, by requiring a lever that pulled more cable over the same distance. Since you have limited real estate between your brake lever at rest and your handlebar (which prevents further movement), you create the same difference. If you grew up using cantilever brakes, you got used to a longer range of lever feedback. Making the change to LP brakes meant learning to lighten up your touch on the lever, and learn precisely where the "sweet spot" was. One of the best/longest nose wheelies I ever rode was after grabbling a "canti" handful of lever on a LP-equipped mtb. In other words, I had to spend some time relearning lever technique to control a LP-equipped bike. Yep - it's real. NOTE: Modulation (the _range_ of response) is different than "spongey" (high Mechanical Advantage) vs. "firm" (low MA). Sheldon wrote well on that - http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html Also - there have been attempts over the years to increase the brake pressure in a non-linear way - Shimano Servo-Wave levers and the Scott Self-Energizing brakes, for example. On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 11:10:30 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote: > > I have lots of experience with bunches of SP & canti brakes, along with > assorted levers, but very little with V brakes and none with disks. During > the last month I have had the opportunity to try both out. We have test > ridden two tandems (a DaVinci with ICS and a CoMotion with a Rolhoff). > Much to my surprise I could not tell much difference between those to sets > of disk brakes and the neo retros on our tandem. Both the power and > modulation felt very similar. I am now visiting my son in El Cerrito and > we borrowed a bike with Tectro V brakes. I found them very powerful but > the front brake had almost no modulation at all. Just the slightest touch > of the lever brought the bike to a complete stop. > > Is this typical of V brakes? Do others who have tried these have a > similar impression? > > Michael > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Brake comparison again
yeah v-brakes are pretty powerful, also coupled with that they need to be set up with the pads very close to the rim. may need adjustment in pulling the levers -- it really is two finger braking. a way to kind of counter act that is to loosen the cable pull for the front brake a little so you have to pull the levers a bit before engaging the brakes. On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 2:10:30 PM UTC-4, Michael Hechmer wrote: > > I have lots of experience with bunches of SP & canti brakes, along with > assorted levers, but very little with V brakes and none with disks. During > the last month I have had the opportunity to try both out. We have test > ridden two tandems (a DaVinci with ICS and a CoMotion with a Rolhoff). > Much to my surprise I could not tell much difference between those to sets > of disk brakes and the neo retros on our tandem. Both the power and > modulation felt very similar. I am now visiting my son in El Cerrito and > we borrowed a bike with Tectro V brakes. I found them very powerful but > the front brake had almost no modulation at all. Just the slightest touch > of the lever brought the bike to a complete stop. > > Is this typical of V brakes? Do others who have tried these have a > similar impression? > > Michael > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Brake comparison again
On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 11:10:30 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote: > > I have lots of experience with bunches of SP & canti brakes, along with > assorted levers, but very little with V brakes and none with disks. During > the last month I have had the opportunity to try both out. We have test > ridden two tandems (a DaVinci with ICS and a CoMotion with a Rolhoff). > Much to my surprise I could not tell much difference between those to sets > of disk brakes and the neo retros on our tandem. Both the power and > modulation felt very similar. I am now visiting my son in El Cerrito and > we borrowed a bike with Tectro V brakes. I found them very powerful but > the front brake had almost no modulation at all. Just the slightest touch > of the lever brought the bike to a complete stop. > > Is this typical of V brakes? Do others who have tried these have a > similar impression? > My experience with v-brakes is very positive. I use them with Campy ergo levers and like that the bike stops with the slightest touch! There's also no vibration/shuddering or sequealing either. I had a terrible Suntour xc pro canti front brake with kool stop salmon pads and all the bike did was squeal, shudder and rattle. I put on a $20 cheapie tektro mini v-brake and it was amazing! I had instant stopping power without all the noise and vibration! I would never go back to cantis. Highly recommend mini v-brakes! In fact, my new bike will have Paul mini v-brakes on it! Disc brakes? I hear they're great on tandems. My friends who have them, ride singles and love disc brakes! They won't go back! The only negative report about disc on tandems I've seen is by Santana as they prefer v-brakes and dual pivots over disc. But based on comments in various forums, it sounds like they are in the minority: http://santanatandems.com/Techno/BrakePower.html Good Luck! > > Michael > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
