Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub (It works!)

2016-01-10 Thread Patrick Moore 
Or: cogset, cluster, cassette (if freehub), sprocket set, corncob (if 1
tooth jumps), freewheel (metonymy -- *not* synecdoche) and probably other
really hip old, British working class terms that I can't remember.

On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 7:31 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

>
>
> On 01/10/2016 05:19 AM, Kevin Lindsey wrote:
>
> A "gear ring" is the toothed ring that, when stacked with ten others,
> forms the eleven-speed cluster.  I'm sure there's a more precise - or, at
> least, a less redundant - word for it, but using only the word "gear"
> sounded ambiguous, and "ring" non-descript, thus "gear ring."
>
>
> That is called a *sprocket, gear, cogwheel* or *cog*.  The last is
> ambiguous, because it generally means a single tooth but also can refer to
> the entire sprocket.
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub (It works!)

2016-01-10 Thread Steve Palincsar 



On 01/10/2016 05:19 AM, Kevin Lindsey wrote:
A "gear ring" is the toothed ring that, when stacked with ten others, 
forms the eleven-speed cluster.  I'm sure there's a more precise - or, 
at least, a less redundant - word for it, but using only the word 
"gear" sounded ambiguous, and "ring" non-descript, thus "gear ring."




That is called a *sprocket, gear, cogwheel* or *cog*. The last is 
ambiguous, because it generally means a single tooth but also can refer 
to the entire sprocket.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub (It works!)

2016-01-10 Thread Kevin Lindsey 
A "gear ring" is the toothed ring that, when stacked with ten others, forms 
the eleven-speed cluster.  I'm sure there's a more precise - or, at least, 
a less redundant - word for it, but using only the word "gear" sounded 
ambiguous, and "ring" non-descript, thus "gear ring."

On Saturday, January 9, 2016 at 11:28:19 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> What is a "gear ring"?
>
> On 01/09/2016 11:21 AM, Kevin Lindsey wrote:
>
> After much delay, I finished my wife's Hilborne and gingerly tested the 
> 11-speed-to-10-speed hack.  Much to my surprise, it works.  Removing one of 
> the gear rings keeps the spacing correct, so the transmission thinks it's 
> still got eleven gears in the back, but the now-10-speed cluster fits 
> perfectly on the 135 hub.  Voila! 
> Next step: convincing her that gears are a good thing.
> Kevin
>
> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 11:34:59 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote: 
>>
>> Jim, completely understand where you're going - I've been there (look at 
>> my 2 x 9 above).  But there are a lot of good points on this thread and 
>> just about every one of them points to the value of custom cassettes.  With 
>> 11t, my buddy has a 134" gear on his tandem - maybe on a tandem he may use 
>> it one day. 
>> Roadies defend their 11t cog with venom, and I googled one thread where 
>> somebody was bashing Miche's 11-sp cassette that begins with 12t.   
>> But on my 2x9, I have the narrow and the wide (pretty much where I want 
>> it), in a 12-29 cassette, by using a bailout ring on the compact double.  
>> Custom cassette and spending time on the calculator to pick everything is 
>> really the only way to get it.  But it's do-able in a 9sp or a 10sp - you 
>> can duplicate the steps and range of a well though-out 3 x 7.  
>>
>> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Jim Bronson wrote: 
>>>
>>> For me the 11 speed is about combining the features of a wide range 
>>> cassette with a narrow range cassette.  I frequently find myself 
>>> hunting for just the right gear and with 11-34 9 speed currently I 
>>> think the steps are a bit bigger than I would like. 
>>>
>>> I still want a fairly large cog in the back, but I also want close 
>>> spacing in the cruising speed ranges that I normally ride in - mid to 
>>> upper teens.  To me an 11 speed cassette is one way to solve that. 
>>>
>>> I've never felt like I've had too many gears with 9 speed and felt 
>>> like I wanted to step back to 7 speed.  Since we ride Rivendells that 
>>> are something of a throwback, I can appreciate the sentiment for less 
>>> gears, less complexity and nostalgia for older parts that worked well. 
>>> But there's nothing wrong with trying something newer either, so long 
>>> as it's economical, reliable and useful in operation.  11 speed prices 
>>> have fallen into the range of affordability, they seem to be as 
>>> reliable as anything else, and if they produce the desired effect, 
>>> then why not?  You don't have to join me if you're happy with what 
>>> you've got.  To each his/her own.  Just Ride. 
>>>
>>> Jim 
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:07 AM, Montclair BobbyB 
>>>  wrote: 
>>> > I don't know, folks... There's inherent beauty (and plenty of gear 
>>> choices) in a 3x7 setup.  I love my front derailleur and a nice even chain 
>>> line... Just saying.  (11 speed??  Sorry, but to me that's just wrong). 
>>>  I'll take the heat for this comment, but I'm just not buying into this 
>>> nonsense of cramming more cogs on a cassette.  :) 
>>> > 
>>> > -- 
>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 
>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to [email protected]. 
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>>> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. 
>>> > For more options, visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> -- 
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>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub (It works!)

2016-01-09 Thread ted 
Good luck with that. As all true retro grouchy sticks in the mud know, 
multiple gears and even freewheels are superfluous.
But seriously, congrats and I hope your wife loves her Hillborne. Mine 
loves hers.


On Saturday, January 9, 2016 at 8:21:31 AM UTC-8, Kevin Lindsey wrote:
>
> After much delay, I finished my wife's Hilborne and gingerly tested the 
> 11-speed-to-10-speed hack.  Much to my surprise, it works.  Removing one of 
> the gear rings keeps the spacing correct, so the transmission thinks it's 
> still got eleven gears in the back, but the now-10-speed cluster fits 
> perfectly on the 135 hub.  Voila!
> Next step: convincing her that gears are a good thing.
> Kevin
>
> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 11:34:59 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> Jim, completely understand where you're going - I've been there (look at 
>> my 2 x 9 above).  But there are a lot of good points on this thread and 
>> just about every one of them points to the value of custom cassettes.  With 
>> 11t, my buddy has a 134" gear on his tandem - maybe on a tandem he may use 
>> it one day. 
>> Roadies defend their 11t cog with venom, and I googled one thread where 
>> somebody was bashing Miche's 11-sp cassette that begins with 12t.  
>> But on my 2x9, I have the narrow and the wide (pretty much where I want 
>> it), in a 12-29 cassette, by using a bailout ring on the compact double.  
>> Custom cassette and spending time on the calculator to pick everything is 
>> really the only way to get it.  But it's do-able in a 9sp or a 10sp - you 
>> can duplicate the steps and range of a well though-out 3 x 7.  
>>
>> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Jim Bronson wrote:
>>>
>>> For me the 11 speed is about combining the features of a wide range 
>>> cassette with a narrow range cassette.  I frequently find myself 
>>> hunting for just the right gear and with 11-34 9 speed currently I 
>>> think the steps are a bit bigger than I would like. 
>>>
>>> I still want a fairly large cog in the back, but I also want close 
>>> spacing in the cruising speed ranges that I normally ride in - mid to 
>>> upper teens.  To me an 11 speed cassette is one way to solve that. 
>>>
>>> I've never felt like I've had too many gears with 9 speed and felt 
>>> like I wanted to step back to 7 speed.  Since we ride Rivendells that 
>>> are something of a throwback, I can appreciate the sentiment for less 
>>> gears, less complexity and nostalgia for older parts that worked well. 
>>> But there's nothing wrong with trying something newer either, so long 
>>> as it's economical, reliable and useful in operation.  11 speed prices 
>>> have fallen into the range of affordability, they seem to be as 
>>> reliable as anything else, and if they produce the desired effect, 
>>> then why not?  You don't have to join me if you're happy with what 
>>> you've got.  To each his/her own.  Just Ride. 
>>>
>>> Jim 
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:07 AM, Montclair BobbyB 
>>>  wrote: 
>>> > I don't know, folks... There's inherent beauty (and plenty of gear 
>>> choices) in a 3x7 setup.  I love my front derailleur and a nice even chain 
>>> line... Just saying.  (11 speed??  Sorry, but to me that's just wrong). 
>>>  I'll take the heat for this comment, but I'm just not buying into this 
>>> nonsense of cramming more cogs on a cassette.  :) 
>>> > 
>>> > -- 
>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 
>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to [email protected]. 
>>> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. 
>>> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. 
>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> -- 
>>> signature goes here 
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub (It works!)

2016-01-09 Thread Steve Palincsar 

What is a "gear ring"?

On 01/09/2016 11:21 AM, Kevin Lindsey wrote:
After much delay, I finished my wife's Hilborne and gingerly tested 
the 11-speed-to-10-speed hack.  Much to my surprise, it works. 
 Removing one of the gear rings keeps the spacing correct, so the 
transmission thinks it's still got eleven gears in the back, but the 
now-10-speed cluster fits perfectly on the 135 hub.  Voila!

Next step: convincing her that gears are a good thing.
Kevin

On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 11:34:59 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:

Jim, completely understand where you're going - I've been there
(look at my 2 x 9 above).  But there are a lot of good points on
this thread and just about every one of them points to the value
of custom cassettes.  With 11t, my buddy has a 134" gear on his
tandem - maybe on a tandem he may use it one day.
Roadies defend their 11t cog with venom, and I googled one thread
where somebody was bashing Miche's 11-sp cassette that begins with
12t.
But on my 2x9, I have the narrow and the wide (pretty much where I
want it), in a 12-29 cassette, by using a bailout ring on the
compact double.
Custom cassette and spending time on the calculator to pick
everything is really the only way to get it.  But it's do-able in
a 9sp or a 10sp - you can duplicate the steps and range of a well
though-out 3 x 7.

On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Jim Bronson wrote:

For me the 11 speed is about combining the features of a wide
range
cassette with a narrow range cassette.  I frequently find myself
hunting for just the right gear and with 11-34 9 speed
currently I
think the steps are a bit bigger than I would like.

I still want a fairly large cog in the back, but I also want
close
spacing in the cruising speed ranges that I normally ride in -
mid to
upper teens.  To me an 11 speed cassette is one way to solve
that.

I've never felt like I've had too many gears with 9 speed and
felt
like I wanted to step back to 7 speed.  Since we ride
Rivendells that
are something of a throwback, I can appreciate the sentiment
for less
gears, less complexity and nostalgia for older parts that
worked well.
But there's nothing wrong with trying something newer either,
so long
as it's economical, reliable and useful in operation.  11
speed prices
have fallen into the range of affordability, they seem to be as
reliable as anything else, and if they produce the desired
effect,
then why not?  You don't have to join me if you're happy with
what
you've got.  To each his/her own.  Just Ride.

Jim

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:07 AM, Montclair BobbyB
 wrote:
> I don't know, folks... There's inherent beauty (and plenty
of gear choices) in a 3x7 setup.  I love my front derailleur
and a nice even chain line... Just saying.  (11 speed??
 Sorry, but to me that's just wrong).  I'll take the heat for
this comment, but I'm just not buying into this nonsense of
cramming more cogs on a cassette.  :)
>
> --
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Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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.
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Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub (It works!)

2016-01-09 Thread Kevin Lindsey 
After much delay, I finished my wife's Hilborne and gingerly tested the 
11-speed-to-10-speed hack.  Much to my surprise, it works.  Removing one of 
the gear rings keeps the spacing correct, so the transmission thinks it's 
still got eleven gears in the back, but the now-10-speed cluster fits 
perfectly on the 135 hub.  Voila!
Next step: convincing her that gears are a good thing.
Kevin

On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 11:34:59 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> Jim, completely understand where you're going - I've been there (look at 
> my 2 x 9 above).  But there are a lot of good points on this thread and 
> just about every one of them points to the value of custom cassettes.  With 
> 11t, my buddy has a 134" gear on his tandem - maybe on a tandem he may use 
> it one day. 
> Roadies defend their 11t cog with venom, and I googled one thread where 
> somebody was bashing Miche's 11-sp cassette that begins with 12t.  
> But on my 2x9, I have the narrow and the wide (pretty much where I want 
> it), in a 12-29 cassette, by using a bailout ring on the compact double.  
> Custom cassette and spending time on the calculator to pick everything is 
> really the only way to get it.  But it's do-able in a 9sp or a 10sp - you 
> can duplicate the steps and range of a well though-out 3 x 7.  
>
> On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Jim Bronson wrote:
>>
>> For me the 11 speed is about combining the features of a wide range 
>> cassette with a narrow range cassette.  I frequently find myself 
>> hunting for just the right gear and with 11-34 9 speed currently I 
>> think the steps are a bit bigger than I would like. 
>>
>> I still want a fairly large cog in the back, but I also want close 
>> spacing in the cruising speed ranges that I normally ride in - mid to 
>> upper teens.  To me an 11 speed cassette is one way to solve that. 
>>
>> I've never felt like I've had too many gears with 9 speed and felt 
>> like I wanted to step back to 7 speed.  Since we ride Rivendells that 
>> are something of a throwback, I can appreciate the sentiment for less 
>> gears, less complexity and nostalgia for older parts that worked well. 
>> But there's nothing wrong with trying something newer either, so long 
>> as it's economical, reliable and useful in operation.  11 speed prices 
>> have fallen into the range of affordability, they seem to be as 
>> reliable as anything else, and if they produce the desired effect, 
>> then why not?  You don't have to join me if you're happy with what 
>> you've got.  To each his/her own.  Just Ride. 
>>
>> Jim 
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:07 AM, Montclair BobbyB 
>>  wrote: 
>> > I don't know, folks... There's inherent beauty (and plenty of gear 
>> choices) in a 3x7 setup.  I love my front derailleur and a nice even chain 
>> line... Just saying.  (11 speed??  Sorry, but to me that's just wrong). 
>>  I'll take the heat for this comment, but I'm just not buying into this 
>> nonsense of cramming more cogs on a cassette.  :) 
>> > 
>> > -- 
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>> an email to [email protected]. 
>> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. 
>> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. 
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> -- 
>> signature goes here 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-12-01 Thread Ron Mc 
Jim, completely understand where you're going - I've been there (look at my 
2 x 9 above).  But there are a lot of good points on this thread and just 
about every one of them points to the value of custom cassettes.  With 11t, 
my buddy has a 134" gear on his tandem - maybe on a tandem he may use it 
one day. 
Roadies defend their 11t cog with venom, and I googled one thread where 
somebody was bashing Miche's 11-sp cassette that begins with 12t.  
But on my 2x9, I have the narrow and the wide (pretty much where I want 
it), in a 12-29 cassette, by using a bailout ring on the compact double.  
Custom cassette and spending time on the calculator to pick everything is 
really the only way to get it.  But it's do-able in a 9sp or a 10sp - you 
can duplicate the steps and range of a well though-out 3 x 7.  

On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Jim Bronson wrote:
>
> For me the 11 speed is about combining the features of a wide range 
> cassette with a narrow range cassette.  I frequently find myself 
> hunting for just the right gear and with 11-34 9 speed currently I 
> think the steps are a bit bigger than I would like. 
>
> I still want a fairly large cog in the back, but I also want close 
> spacing in the cruising speed ranges that I normally ride in - mid to 
> upper teens.  To me an 11 speed cassette is one way to solve that. 
>
> I've never felt like I've had too many gears with 9 speed and felt 
> like I wanted to step back to 7 speed.  Since we ride Rivendells that 
> are something of a throwback, I can appreciate the sentiment for less 
> gears, less complexity and nostalgia for older parts that worked well. 
> But there's nothing wrong with trying something newer either, so long 
> as it's economical, reliable and useful in operation.  11 speed prices 
> have fallen into the range of affordability, they seem to be as 
> reliable as anything else, and if they produce the desired effect, 
> then why not?  You don't have to join me if you're happy with what 
> you've got.  To each his/her own.  Just Ride. 
>
> Jim 
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:07 AM, Montclair BobbyB 
> > wrote: 
> > I don't know, folks... There's inherent beauty (and plenty of gear 
> choices) in a 3x7 setup.  I love my front derailleur and a nice even chain 
> line... Just saying.  (11 speed??  Sorry, but to me that's just wrong). 
>  I'll take the heat for this comment, but I'm just not buying into this 
> nonsense of cramming more cogs on a cassette.  :) 
> > 
> > -- 
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> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 
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> an email to [email protected] . 
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> . 
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> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
>
>
>
> -- 
> -- 
> signature goes here 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-12-01 Thread Jim Bronson 
For me the 11 speed is about combining the features of a wide range
cassette with a narrow range cassette.  I frequently find myself
hunting for just the right gear and with 11-34 9 speed currently I
think the steps are a bit bigger than I would like.

I still want a fairly large cog in the back, but I also want close
spacing in the cruising speed ranges that I normally ride in - mid to
upper teens.  To me an 11 speed cassette is one way to solve that.

I've never felt like I've had too many gears with 9 speed and felt
like I wanted to step back to 7 speed.  Since we ride Rivendells that
are something of a throwback, I can appreciate the sentiment for less
gears, less complexity and nostalgia for older parts that worked well.
But there's nothing wrong with trying something newer either, so long
as it's economical, reliable and useful in operation.  11 speed prices
have fallen into the range of affordability, they seem to be as
reliable as anything else, and if they produce the desired effect,
then why not?  You don't have to join me if you're happy with what
you've got.  To each his/her own.  Just Ride.

Jim

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:07 AM, Montclair BobbyB
 wrote:
> I don't know, folks... There's inherent beauty (and plenty of gear choices) 
> in a 3x7 setup.  I love my front derailleur and a nice even chain line... 
> Just saying.  (11 speed??  Sorry, but to me that's just wrong).  I'll take 
> the heat for this comment, but I'm just not buying into this nonsense of 
> cramming more cogs on a cassette.  :)
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-12-01 Thread Ron Mc 
my 7-speed is a Suntour Winner freewheel.  


>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-12-01 Thread Ron Mc 
On the two examples I posted above,both with 12t smallest cog, I used the 
96" gear all the time.  The 104" - I've been there, but it's not 
particularly useful.  

On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 9:33:29 AM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> ...
>
> 11 is just plain silly in my opinion, and all 10 gives you is an 11 
> tooth small sprocket.  That's fine for a small wheeler, although 10 or 
> even 9 tooth is even better for my Moulton, but for a 26 or 27 inch 
> wheel, on anything but a tandem even 12 produced a high gear that's far 
> too high for my needs.   Yes, you can go to tiny chain rings and get 12T 
> high gears down to a reasonable number, but then you're stuck with tiny 
> chain rings, front derailleurs made for larger and with more rapid wear 
> on a part that's not really meant to be readily consumable.  It's one 
> thing to whip off a cassette and put a new one one, but a whole 
> different price class to replace chain rings. 
>
> Some of the stuff they come up with for racers is just a bad fit for the 
> likes of people like me. 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-12-01 Thread Scott G. 
The Compass Gran Bois 5/6 speed cassette hub shows the way forward.
A hub that could use a *steel* 8 speed free hub body and 135mm spacing
would be great. Use a 9 or 10 speed cassette and leave of the 11t spacer.

The GB 6 speed hub would probably hold 7 speeds of a 10s cassette,
add 135mm spacing, and Bobs your uncle, you'd even have room
for a disc rotor. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-12-01 Thread Steve Palincsar 



On 12/01/2015 10:24 AM, Ron Mc wrote:

no problem there, here's my 3 x 7 with half steps and bail-out

 



26__42__46

32- 21.9 35.4 38.8
25- 28.1 45.4 49.7
21- 33.4 54.0 59.1
18- 39.0 63.0 69.0
16- 43.9 70.9 77.6
14- 50.1 81.0 88.7
12- 58.5 94.5 103.5


Ever try the K cassette?  13-34 with 28/44/48 gives you this:

58.291.499.7
50.479.286.4
44.569.976.2
37.859.464.8
31.549.554.0
26.141.044.7
22.234.938.1



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Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-12-01 Thread James Warren 

Keep triples alive!


On Dec 1, 2015, at 7:07 AM, Montclair BobbyB wrote:

> I don't know, folks... There's inherent beauty (and plenty of gear choices) 
> in a 3x7 setup.  I love my front derailleur and a nice even chain line... 
> Just saying.  (11 speed??  Sorry, but to me that's just wrong).  I'll take 
> the heat for this comment, but I'm just not buying into this nonsense of 
> cramming more cogs on a cassette.  :)
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-12-01 Thread Steve Palincsar 



On 12/01/2015 10:07 AM, Montclair BobbyB wrote:

I don't know, folks... There's inherent beauty (and plenty of gear choices) in 
a 3x7 setup.


With a couple of nicely spaced cassettes that start with 13, too. Lots 
to like about 7.  What's not so nice is that index shifter controls have 
been essentially unavailable for decades.  Friction's nice and still 
works with 7 Hyperglide, but sometimes and for some applications there's 
just no doubt in my mind that index is better.


And 3x9 is nice too, and Sheldon has shown us how to customize 9s so 
they start with 13.



I love my front derailleur and a nice even chain line... Just saying.  (11 
speed??  Sorry, but to me that's just wrong).  I'll take the heat for this 
comment, but I'm just not buying into this nonsense of cramming more cogs on a 
cassette.  :)



11 is just plain silly in my opinion, and all 10 gives you is an 11 
tooth small sprocket.  That's fine for a small wheeler, although 10 or 
even 9 tooth is even better for my Moulton, but for a 26 or 27 inch 
wheel, on anything but a tandem even 12 produced a high gear that's far 
too high for my needs.   Yes, you can go to tiny chain rings and get 12T 
high gears down to a reasonable number, but then you're stuck with tiny 
chain rings, front derailleurs made for larger and with more rapid wear 
on a part that's not really meant to be readily consumable.  It's one 
thing to whip off a cassette and put a new one one, but a whole 
different price class to replace chain rings.


Some of the stuff they come up with for racers is just a bad fit for the 
likes of people like me.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-12-01 Thread Ron Mc 
no problem there, here's my 3 x 7 with half steps and bail-out  

  
 

26__42__46
32- 21.9 35.4 38.8
25- 28.1 45.4 49.7
21- 33.4 54.0 59.1
18- 39.0 63.0 69.0
16- 43.9 70.9 77.6
14- 50.1 81.0 88.7
12- 58.5 94.5 103.5  

and a 2 x 9 (index) that pretty much duplicates it  


  

25___42
29- 23.6 39.6
25- 27.3 45.9
21- 32.5 54.6
18- 37.9 63.7
16- 42.7 71.7
15- 45.5 76.5
14- 48.8 82.0
13- 52.5 88.3
12- 56.9 95.6

On Tuesday, December 1, 2015 at 9:07:35 AM UTC-6, Montclair BobbyB wrote:

> I don't know, folks... There's inherent beauty (and plenty of gear 
> choices) in a 3x7 setup.  I love my front derailleur and a nice even chain 
> line... Just saying.  (11 speed??  Sorry, but to me that's just wrong). 
>  I'll take the heat for this comment, but I'm just not buying into this 
> nonsense of cramming more cogs on a cassette.  :)
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-12-01 Thread Montclair BobbyB 
I don't know, folks... There's inherent beauty (and plenty of gear choices) in 
a 3x7 setup.  I love my front derailleur and a nice even chain line... Just 
saying.  (11 speed??  Sorry, but to me that's just wrong).  I'll take the heat 
for this comment, but I'm just not buying into this nonsense of cramming more 
cogs on a cassette.  :)

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Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-11-30 Thread Ron Mc 
oops, sorry I messed up on my link - had been doing something else on 
vintage tackle board before - here's the Alex cycles version
http://www.alexscycle.com/sprockets-and-cogs/road-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15/token-rear-cassette.html?currency=USD
 
 
but yes, $250

On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 11:13:17 AM UTC-6, Jim Bronson wrote:
>
> Cool idea, but too expensive if you use normal, practical wheels.  At 
> $250 per cassette it would make more sense to me to just have another 
> wheel built that was 11 speed compatible, and just use SRAM 1130 or 
> Shimano 105 cassettes.  The new wheel will have paid for itself by the 
> time you put your 2nd cassette on.  Even if you used an expensive 
> boutique hub on your new wheel like a Phil, the new wheel would pay 
> for itself by the 3rd cassette. 
>
> Now, if customer XYZ already uses silly expensive wheels, or 
> cassettes, or both, then this idea starts to make a lot more sense. 
> If I had a $2000 Zipp wheelset, wanted 11 speed, and used D/A, or Red 
> cassettes, then this makes a lot of sense. 
>
> Jim 
>
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 9:12 AM, DMG > 
> wrote: 
> > Edco (which I was surprised to learn still exists) makes an 11-speed 
> > cassette that's designed to go on a 10 speed hub, if you run into 
> problems 
> > with the removal option. 
> > 
> http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/02/02/edcos-wheel-saving-teneleven-monoblock-cassette-now-available-through-reynolds-cycling/
>  
> > 
> > It's pricey, of course, but might still be a nicer option than the new 
> wheel 
> > route! 
> > 
> > -Dan 
> > 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-11-30 Thread Jim Bronson 
Cool idea, but too expensive if you use normal, practical wheels.  At
$250 per cassette it would make more sense to me to just have another
wheel built that was 11 speed compatible, and just use SRAM 1130 or
Shimano 105 cassettes.  The new wheel will have paid for itself by the
time you put your 2nd cassette on.  Even if you used an expensive
boutique hub on your new wheel like a Phil, the new wheel would pay
for itself by the 3rd cassette.

Now, if customer XYZ already uses silly expensive wheels, or
cassettes, or both, then this idea starts to make a lot more sense.
If I had a $2000 Zipp wheelset, wanted 11 speed, and used D/A, or Red
cassettes, then this makes a lot of sense.

Jim

On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 9:12 AM, DMG  wrote:
> Edco (which I was surprised to learn still exists) makes an 11-speed
> cassette that's designed to go on a 10 speed hub, if you run into problems
> with the removal option.
> http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/02/02/edcos-wheel-saving-teneleven-monoblock-cassette-now-available-through-reynolds-cycling/
>
> It's pricey, of course, but might still be a nicer option than the new wheel
> route!
>
> -Dan
>
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[RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-11-27 Thread Lungimsam 
Hopefully it will shift great!
That would be cool. Then you are good to go.
Let us know how it goes. If it's all 11-speed spacing I'd think it would work 
just fine.

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[RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-11-27 Thread Ron Mc 
Looked at the Edco and one thing that bothers me is that it contacts the 
freehub body only at two points for the entire cassette - I would worry 
about wear damage to the freehub.  Also tinkering around with my coffee 
this morning, found this option in Japan 
 
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/bulldog1935/bluegrass/leader/leader6.jpg 
 the parabolic shape of the ramp on the 11-28 also looks like they've 
thought about gear steps

On Friday, November 27, 2015 at 9:12:37 AM UTC-6, DMG wrote:
>
> Edco (which I was surprised to learn still exists) makes an 11-speed 
> cassette that's designed to go on a 10 speed hub, if you run into problems 
> with the removal option. 
>
> http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/02/02/edcos-wheel-saving-teneleven-monoblock-cassette-now-available-through-reynolds-cycling/
>
> It's pricey, of course, but might still be a nicer option than the new 
> wheel route!
>
> -Dan
>

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[RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-11-27 Thread DMG 
Edco (which I was surprised to learn still exists) makes an 11-speed 
cassette that's designed to go on a 10 speed hub, if you run into problems 
with the removal option. 
http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/02/02/edcos-wheel-saving-teneleven-monoblock-cassette-now-available-through-reynolds-cycling/

It's pricey, of course, but might still be a nicer option than the new 
wheel route!

-Dan

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[RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-11-27 Thread Ron Mc 
methinks Deac has taken on the Rivendell persona too much

On Thursday, November 26, 2015 at 2:58:04 PM UTC-6, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> I keep reading this as "Elven speeds on a ten-speed hub" and thinking "I 
> don't know, elves are fast, it could burn out." Grin.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>

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[RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-11-26 Thread Deacon Patrick 
I keep reading this as "Elven speeds on a ten-speed hub" and thinking "I 
don't know, elves are fast, it could burn out." Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-11-26 Thread Kevin Lindsey 
Bill -
It's because the smallest cog is serrated and seems different from the 
others that I figured that was the more important gear, and concluded that 
the big ring on the other side was probably the more expendable and least 
likely to be missed by the transmission.  So off it comes.  I don't believe 
the second-smallest gear was similarly serrated, but I'll check.
The local bike shop assured me that this would never work, but couldn't 
really explain why.  I suspect they're right; I'll give this a try, but am 
not hopeful.  Still, miracles happen.
All the best,
Kevin

On Thursday, November 26, 2015 at 1:07:35 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Kevin
>
> It could work.  Take a look at that smallest cog.  See how it has that 
> serrated pattern?  That allows the lockring to stay in place without having 
> to tighten it super tight.  Now look at the second cog.  Is it also 
> serrated in the same way?  Many Shimano cogsets have both the top and 
> second cog serrated in this way.  If yours is, I would call that a good 
> sign.  
>
> Now, how many teeth is that smallest cog that you are removing?  Is it a 
> 12? or an 11?  An 11-tooth cog has a special smaller 11-tooth lockring. 
>  Everything else uses a standard lockring.  So if you are removing a 12, 
> you've got the right lockring for the next cog.  If you are removing an 11, 
> you probably want to also set aside the small lockring and use a standard 
> one.  Use your judgment there, deciding if you have good coverage. 
>
> Finally, you are right that the shifters don't really know that there 
> aren't 10 cogs there, but there will be an extra click somewhere.  The 
> natural guess is to hide the extra click behind the biggest cog.  You can't 
> get there because the limit screw of the derailer stops you from getting 
> there.  Try that first.  If it seems funky, you might want to also try 
> having the extra click on the small cog side.  That extra click would put 
> slack in the cable as you are trying to shift to the smallest cog that 
> isn't there, but it also means you are using the "right" 10 positions.  
>
> I would definitely try it out before electing to rebuild a wheelset.  
>
> best
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On Thursday, November 26, 2015 at 9:38:41 AM UTC-8, Kevin Lindsey wrote:
>>
>> I'm building a Sam for my wife and bought a complete Shimano 105 11-speed 
>> STI group for it.  Without thinking, I ordered a 650B wheel from Rivendell, 
>> only to find that it's a ten-speed hub.  Now, I know there are spacing 
>> issues with STI shifters, but I'm wondering what would happen if I simply 
>> removed the biggest gear from the 11-speed cluster and installed it on the 
>> hub.  Would the indexed shifting still work?  The spacing between the gears 
>> would remain the same and, in theory, I don't see how the transmission 
>> would know the difference.  However, I've built up enough bikes in my time 
>> to know that nothing (well, almost nothing) is that simple.  Before I have 
>> the local bike shop build me an entirely new 650B 135mm 11-speed wheel 
>> (which, by the way, apparently are only made now for disc brakes), I 
>> thought I'd ping the group and see if anyone has any ideas.
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Kevin
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-11-26 Thread Bill Lindsay 
Kevin

It could work.  Take a look at that smallest cog.  See how it has that 
serrated pattern?  That allows the lockring to stay in place without having 
to tighten it super tight.  Now look at the second cog.  Is it also 
serrated in the same way?  Many Shimano cogsets have both the top and 
second cog serrated in this way.  If yours is, I would call that a good 
sign.  

Now, how many teeth is that smallest cog that you are removing?  Is it a 
12? or an 11?  An 11-tooth cog has a special smaller 11-tooth lockring. 
 Everything else uses a standard lockring.  So if you are removing a 12, 
you've got the right lockring for the next cog.  If you are removing an 11, 
you probably want to also set aside the small lockring and use a standard 
one.  Use your judgment there, deciding if you have good coverage. 

Finally, you are right that the shifters don't really know that there 
aren't 10 cogs there, but there will be an extra click somewhere.  The 
natural guess is to hide the extra click behind the biggest cog.  You can't 
get there because the limit screw of the derailer stops you from getting 
there.  Try that first.  If it seems funky, you might want to also try 
having the extra click on the small cog side.  That extra click would put 
slack in the cable as you are trying to shift to the smallest cog that 
isn't there, but it also means you are using the "right" 10 positions.  

I would definitely try it out before electing to rebuild a wheelset.  

best

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, November 26, 2015 at 9:38:41 AM UTC-8, Kevin Lindsey wrote:
>
> I'm building a Sam for my wife and bought a complete Shimano 105 11-speed 
> STI group for it.  Without thinking, I ordered a 650B wheel from Rivendell, 
> only to find that it's a ten-speed hub.  Now, I know there are spacing 
> issues with STI shifters, but I'm wondering what would happen if I simply 
> removed the biggest gear from the 11-speed cluster and installed it on the 
> hub.  Would the indexed shifting still work?  The spacing between the gears 
> would remain the same and, in theory, I don't see how the transmission 
> would know the difference.  However, I've built up enough bikes in my time 
> to know that nothing (well, almost nothing) is that simple.  Before I have 
> the local bike shop build me an entirely new 650B 135mm 11-speed wheel 
> (which, by the way, apparently are only made now for disc brakes), I 
> thought I'd ping the group and see if anyone has any ideas.
> Thanks in advance,
> Kevin
>

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[RBW] Re: Eleven speeds on a ten-speed hub

2015-11-26 Thread Kelly 
Well if it's shimano it should work with the 11 speed.  They are made 
wider.  If memory is correct when I went from 9 to 10 speed I had to add a 
spacer.  I would make sense that removing that spacer now would make room 
for the 11 speed.  You may not have to replace the wheel.  

Been wrong before but that is my memory of it. 

Kelly

On Thursday, November 26, 2015 at 11:38:41 AM UTC-6, Kevin Lindsey wrote:
>
> I'm building a Sam for my wife and bought a complete Shimano 105 11-speed 
> STI group for it.  Without thinking, I ordered a 650B wheel from Rivendell, 
> only to find that it's a ten-speed hub.  Now, I know there are spacing 
> issues with STI shifters, but I'm wondering what would happen if I simply 
> removed the biggest gear from the 11-speed cluster and installed it on the 
> hub.  Would the indexed shifting still work?  The spacing between the gears 
> would remain the same and, in theory, I don't see how the transmission 
> would know the difference.  However, I've built up enough bikes in my time 
> to know that nothing (well, almost nothing) is that simple.  Before I have 
> the local bike shop build me an entirely new 650B 135mm 11-speed wheel 
> (which, by the way, apparently are only made now for disc brakes), I 
> thought I'd ping the group and see if anyone has any ideas.
> Thanks in advance,
> Kevin
>

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