Re: [RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[Marc Nolte]

The one and only one thing I don't like about my Riv Wilbury is my inability to 
ride no-hands. I chalk it up to the mixte design. I've got fenders, small rack 
and a 'half-loafer with tools and spares up front ( prolly less than 3kg). 

I've found it become more stable as I added weight to the bag and again when I 
lowered the bars, but not yet perfectly so. 

My next bike will be tested beforehand to confirm no-hands ride ability. 

Marc in Calgary

> On Sep 2, 2017, at 5:32 PM, RonaTD  wrote:
> 
>> On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 2:56:19 PM UTC-5, Antone Könst wrote: 
>> My new (to me) Cheviot is very hard to control with no hands on a flat road 
>> with no load.  ….   
> 
> And I replied:
>> Mine, too. My explanation is that the very high wheel flop requires a large 
>> amount of correction, and it's hard to apply that much correction and not 
>> over-correct. 
> 
> Update: I pulled the fork off my Cheviot and found it was not straight. I 
> adjusted the rake on one side and centered the wheel and, voila, far more 
> stable handling. I suspected that might be the problem and should have 
> mentioned it earlier. The first test when no-hands handling is a problem 
> should always be fork and wheel alignment. In the case of the Cheviot, I also 
> find that it likes a very upright riding position. I have not yet tried it 
> with a front load with the aligned fork, but I expect it to prefer rear 
> loading.
> 
> Ted Durant
> Milwaukee, WI USA
> 
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[RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[RonaTD]

On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 2:56:19 PM UTC-5, Antone Könst wrote: 
>  My new (to me) Cheviot is very hard to control with no hands on a flat road 
> with no load.  ….   

And I replied:
> Mine, too. My explanation is that the very high wheel flop requires a large 
> amount of correction, and it's hard to apply that much correction and not 
> over-correct. 

Update: I pulled the fork off my Cheviot and found it was not straight. I 
adjusted the rake on one side and centered the wheel and, voila, far more 
stable handling. I suspected that might be the problem and should have 
mentioned it earlier. The first test when no-hands handling is a problem should 
always be fork and wheel alignment. In the case of the Cheviot, I also find 
that it likes a very upright riding position. I have not yet tried it with a 
front load with the aligned fork, but I expect it to prefer rear loading.

Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI USA

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[RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[Davey Two Shoes]

The steering on the clem is very light without load. It likes a little 
weight over the front. 

On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 4:38:47 PM UTC-4, dougP wrote:
>
> This is interesting, and a bit surprising.  We stopped at Rivendell a 
> while back & my wife test rode a Clementine.  She found it to be "twitchy" 
> compared to her Atlantis.  Same designer, and both are standard Riv 
> builds.  The mystery of handling continues.
>
> dougP
>
> On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 6:03:37 AM UTC-7, RonaTD wrote:
>>
>> On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 2:56:19 PM UTC-5, Antone Könst wrote: 
>> >  My new (to me) Cheviot is very hard to control with no hands on a flat 
>> road with no load.  ….   
>>
>> Mine, too. My explanation is that the very high wheel flop requires a 
>> large amount of correction, and it's hard to apply that much correction and 
>> not over-correct. 
>>
>> Ted Durant
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[dougP]

This is interesting, and a bit surprising.  We stopped at Rivendell a while 
back & my wife test rode a Clementine.  She found it to be "twitchy" 
compared to her Atlantis.  Same designer, and both are standard Riv 
builds.  The mystery of handling continues.

dougP

On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 6:03:37 AM UTC-7, RonaTD wrote:
>
> On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 2:56:19 PM UTC-5, Antone Könst wrote: 
> >  My new (to me) Cheviot is very hard to control with no hands on a flat 
> road with no load.  ….   
>
> Mine, too. My explanation is that the very high wheel flop requires a 
> large amount of correction, and it's hard to apply that much correction and 
> not over-correct. 
>
> Ted Durant

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Re: [RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[Patrick Moore]

OTOH, I can ride no hands on my Matthews with a (Jim G's calculator) flop
factor of 19, with no problem; as easily as on my Rivendell Roads. The bike
that's hard to ride no hands is my Dahon Hon Solo, which I hear tell is a
very low trail (= low flop?) design.

I think other reasons are involved.

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 7:03 AM, RonaTD  wrote:

> On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 2:56:19 PM UTC-5, Antone Könst wrote:
> >  My new (to me) Cheviot is very hard to control with no hands on a flat
> road with no load.  ….
>
> Mine, too. My explanation is that the very high wheel flop requires a
> large amount of correction, and it's hard to apply that much correction and
> not over-correct.
>
> Ted Durant
>
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[RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[RonaTD]

On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 2:56:19 PM UTC-5, Antone Könst wrote:
>  My new (to me) Cheviot is very hard to control with no hands on a flat road 
> with no load.  ….  

Mine, too. My explanation is that the very high wheel flop requires a large 
amount of correction, and it's hard to apply that much correction and not 
over-correct. 

Ted Durant

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[RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[Dave Johnston]

My Heron Touring is wonderfully stable and yet appropriately responsive for 
a "country bike", however about a decade ago I put on a small "clamp on the 
bars type" handlebar bag and it got shimmy coasting no hands down a gentle 
slope at about 20mph while trying to zip up a jacket. I took the handlebag 
off and stuffed it in the trunk bag on the rear rack, which made camera and 
chapstick access less convenient. I have never run a bar bag again on that 
bike, and never had shimmy before or since.

Knowing what I know now I would have just left the bar bag in place and:
a) pedaled, not coasted
b) rested knee on top tube while coasting
c) put more or less weight in the front bag as an experiment

-Dave J

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 10:42:46 PM UTC-4, Bruce K Jamison wrote:
>
> My SOMA San Marcos 59cm has been a great bike.  At the end of a long ride 
> where I was admittedly tired and not riding in the best fashion (no hands, 
> leaning way back in the saddle), the bike got the dreaded wobble.   It went 
> away quickly.  I went over the bike checking the usual suspects, and am 
> happy to say everything is fine again.   But I was really surprised that it 
> happened at all.   The San Marcos is so stable and it’s even a 2X top tube 
> model.I guess it’s only human….  
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[Patrick Moore]

Was the initial question about shimmy, or about straight line stability? As
Antone says, there is a big difference. I've owned bikes that just felt
"darty" -- they didn't want to track straight, and the slightest body
adjustment or sidewind would send them swerving. *And*, this could happen
on a bike that was, if anything, rather sluggish in turn-in -- we're not
talking about darty crit bikes.

One such bike was an otherwise nice Fuji Royale, 6 speed era ('cause it was
written on the right chain stay: "12 Speed"). The bike just didn't want to
track straight. It wasn't terrible, and you could adjust, and I did, but it
just wasn't stable. And this was no darty crit bike by any means.

But put a 20+ lb load in the back, and the handling became just sweet, if
rather sedate.

Likewise: riding a NORBA (can't speak to modern ones) era mountain bike
with too-skinny tires: again, just would not track straight.

Or, last example, my otherwise nice Sam Hill. Fine, if rather sedate on the
flats, but point it uphill, sit far back, gear down, and pedal hard, and it
was very hard to keep the thing in a straight line. (This is very great
contradistinction from my 4 other Rivs, of which one wonderful quality was
straight line, no-thought/no worries stability, albeit with supremely
confident and seamless turn-in. In fact, on the flats or in fast downhill
sweepers, the Sam felt rock solid.)

All of this is and entirely different matter from shimmy.

I think that the Original Person was talking about this sort of
instability, and not shimmy -- right?

Patrick "fwiw, the 15 mph+ no-hands-only shimmy on the '03 Curt seems to
have mysteriously disappeared this year" Moore

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 7:00 PM, Antone Könst 
wrote:

> But there is basic stability, as opposed to the speed wobble kind of
> shimmying...my old Nishiki I'd ride through NYC with no hands for miles,
> besides lights, but through intersections and down hills, even loaded.  My
> new (to me) Cheviot is very hard to control with no hands on a flat road
> with no load.  Why?
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[Antone Könst]

But there is basic stability, as opposed to the speed wobble kind of 
shimmying...my old Nishiki I'd ride through NYC with no hands for miles, 
besides lights, but through intersections and down hills, even loaded.  My 
new (to me) Cheviot is very hard to control with no hands on a flat road 
with no load.  Why? 

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 5:56:40 PM UTC-4, Nash Taylor wrote:
>
> Sounds like the way you were riding it.  Does a bike exist that won't ever 
> shimmy when someone rides no handed and leaning back?  
>
> On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 7:42:46 PM UTC-7, Bruce K Jamison wrote:
>>
>> My SOMA San Marcos 59cm has been a great bike.  At the end of a long ride 
>> where I was admittedly tired and not riding in the best fashion (no hands, 
>> leaning way back in the saddle), the bike got the dreaded wobble.   It went 
>> away quickly.  I went over the bike checking the usual suspects, and am 
>> happy to say everything is fine again.   But I was really surprised that it 
>> happened at all.   The San Marcos is so stable and it’s even a 2X top tube 
>> model.I guess it’s only human….  
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[Bruce K Jamison]

It sounds like shimmy is the more popular term, and yes, it went away as 
soon as I got back into a good riding position.   But it was a first for 
this bike and I was surprised more than anything.   I'm sure I've ridden 
like that before, maybe this time I over did it, or maybe being tired meant 
I was not controlling it as well.   But I still took time to check things 
out.  I've even tried to bring it on and so far no more problems.   On my 
other bikes that were prone to shimmy I've had the most luck with moving 
weight around, redistributing loads, things like that.   But the San Marcos 
is currently set up as a go-fast bike.  I took the racks off a while back 
and I don't carry much on it other than an underseat bag and water.   

Maybe I was on the edge of losing control and shimmy was a warning to stop 
messing around!

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 12:10:12 PM UTC-5, Ryan Fleming wrote:
>
> When did it go away? After you stopped riding no hands?
>
> On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 9:42:46 PM UTC-5, Bruce K Jamison wrote:
>>
>> My SOMA San Marcos 59cm has been a great bike.  At the end of a long ride 
>> where I was admittedly tired and not riding in the best fashion (no hands, 
>> leaning way back in the saddle), the bike got the dreaded wobble.   It went 
>> away quickly.  I went over the bike checking the usual suspects, and am 
>> happy to say everything is fine again.   But I was really surprised that it 
>> happened at all.   The San Marcos is so stable and it’s even a 2X top tube 
>> model.I guess it’s only human….  
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[RonaTD]

On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 5:08:02 PM UTC-5, christian poppell wrote:
>
>
> Experienced shimmy for the first time ever going 17ish mph downhill with 
> my hands off the bars (64cm Orange Quickbeam). Had a small amount of stuff 
> in a saddle bag and a down sleeping bag strapped to my bars. 
>

That sounds similar to the circumstances under which I have had shimmy with 
Riv/Grant designed bikes - saddle bag plus handlebar bag. Just one or the 
other, no shimmy. Both - shimmy. I was able to pretty reliably replicate 
it. The amount of weight in each bag could vary a fair amount, but there 
had to be weight in both places.


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[RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[dougP]

Here's a thought that I need to embrace:

" Here’s what I think, not what I know:"

The older I get, the less I know.

dougP

On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 7:31:35 AM UTC-7, Spencer Hawkes wrote:
>
> A (maybe) helpful article.
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/pages/shimmy-shimmy-coco-bop-shimmy-shimmy-bop
>

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[RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[christian poppell]

Experienced shimmy for the first time ever going 17ish mph downhill with my 
hands off the bars (64cm Orange Quickbeam). Had a small amount of stuff in 
a saddle bag and a down sleeping bag strapped to my bars. 

The fix was to put my hands on the bars and keep going. Cheap and 
effective. 


On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 7:42:46 PM UTC-7, Bruce K Jamison wrote:
>
> My SOMA San Marcos 59cm has been a great bike.  At the end of a long ride 
> where I was admittedly tired and not riding in the best fashion (no hands, 
> leaning way back in the saddle), the bike got the dreaded wobble.   It went 
> away quickly.  I went over the bike checking the usual suspects, and am 
> happy to say everything is fine again.   But I was really surprised that it 
> happened at all.   The San Marcos is so stable and it’s even a 2X top tube 
> model.I guess it’s only human….  
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[Spencer Hawkes]

A (maybe) helpful article.

https://www.rivbike.com/pages/shimmy-shimmy-coco-bop-shimmy-shimmy-bop

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[RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[ted]

Well claiming "won't ever" may be going too far, but my Gios has never even 
hinted at shimmy and I have ridden it no hands and bolt upright or leaning 
back to stretch many many times. That said, its handling is very very quick 
(great crit bike). If your balance and smooth spin aren't good you won't 
ride it no hands at all. I suspect it won't ever shimmy cause it would just 
keep going one way if it started (and wasn't stopped by rider response), 
therefore being incapable of oscillating.
 
My ill founded theory is, any bike that's neither twitchy nor dreadfully 
sluggish can be induced to shimmy.


On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 2:56:40 PM UTC-7, Nash Taylor wrote:
>
> Sounds like the way you were riding it.  Does a bike exist that won't ever 
> shimmy when someone rides no handed and leaning back?  
>
> On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 7:42:46 PM UTC-7, Bruce K Jamison wrote:
>>
>> My SOMA San Marcos 59cm has been a great bike.  At the end of a long ride 
>> where I was admittedly tired and not riding in the best fashion (no hands, 
>> leaning way back in the saddle), the bike got the dreaded wobble.   It went 
>> away quickly.  I went over the bike checking the usual suspects, and am 
>> happy to say everything is fine again.   But I was really surprised that it 
>> happened at all.   The San Marcos is so stable and it’s even a 2X top tube 
>> model.I guess it’s only human….  
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[Nash Taylor]

Sounds like the way you were riding it.  Does a bike exist that won't ever 
shimmy when someone rides no handed and leaning back?  

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 7:42:46 PM UTC-7, Bruce K Jamison wrote:
>
> My SOMA San Marcos 59cm has been a great bike.  At the end of a long ride 
> where I was admittedly tired and not riding in the best fashion (no hands, 
> leaning way back in the saddle), the bike got the dreaded wobble.   It went 
> away quickly.  I went over the bike checking the usual suspects, and am 
> happy to say everything is fine again.   But I was really surprised that it 
> happened at all.   The San Marcos is so stable and it’s even a 2X top tube 
> model.I guess it’s only human….  
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[Ryan Fleming]

When did it go away? After you stopped riding no hands?

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 9:42:46 PM UTC-5, Bruce K Jamison wrote:
>
> My SOMA San Marcos 59cm has been a great bike.  At the end of a long ride 
> where I was admittedly tired and not riding in the best fashion (no hands, 
> leaning way back in the saddle), the bike got the dreaded wobble.   It went 
> away quickly.  I went over the bike checking the usual suspects, and am 
> happy to say everything is fine again.   But I was really surprised that it 
> happened at all.   The San Marcos is so stable and it’s even a 2X top tube 
> model.I guess it’s only human….  
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Even a riv (design) can wobble

[dougP]

Wobble (aka "shimmy") is a recurring topic, not only here but on other 
forums.  I can get my Atlantis to wobble with the right set of conditions.  
After following this topic for years, I've come to the conclusion that some 
bikes wobble under some riders sometimes.  Not everything is predictable 
nor correctable.  Some riders have never experienced wobble while others 
have sold bikes because they couldn't stand the wobble.  Stuff happens.

dougP

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 7:42:46 PM UTC-7, Bruce K Jamison wrote:
>
> My SOMA San Marcos 59cm has been a great bike.  At the end of a long ride 
> where I was admittedly tired and not riding in the best fashion (no hands, 
> leaning way back in the saddle), the bike got the dreaded wobble.   It went 
> away quickly.  I went over the bike checking the usual suspects, and am 
> happy to say everything is fine again.   But I was really surprised that it 
> happened at all.   The San Marcos is so stable and it’s even a 2X top tube 
> model.I guess it’s only human….  
>
>

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