Re: [RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Ron Mc]

the whole splay argument is why I like Merrells on platforms - you can't do 
that in narrow shoes inside toeclips.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Eric Norris]

Could have saved yourself a lot of time, Deacon:

"I am Joe's Foot"

https://archive.org/stream/IAmJoesBody-J.D.Ratcliffe/joebody_djvu.txt (scroll 
almost to the bottom for The Foot)

Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

> On Apr 3, 2016, at 12:00 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:
> 
> Sweet! And, ha! (Laughing at myself). The thought actually took up very 
> little of the ride, but expressing the concepts took a lot longer and came 
> out more analytical than the ride was. That happens to me a lot. Grin.
> 
> With abandon,
> Patrick
> 
>> On Sunday, April 3, 2016 at 12:03:36 PM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>> My ride wasn't so analytical. Chased my friends on their tandem for 30 mi in 
>> my toeclips. Kept up the whole way, and rode higher gears and generally 
>> faster than my norm.
> 
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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Ron Mc]

Totally understand. That's how I arrived at the core muscle conclusion.

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Deacon Patrick]

Sweet! And, ha! (Laughing at myself). The thought actually took up very 
little of the ride, but expressing the concepts took a lot longer and came 
out more analytical than the ride was. That happens to me a lot. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Sunday, April 3, 2016 at 12:03:36 PM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> My ride wasn't so analytical. Chased my friends on their tandem for 30 mi 
> in my toeclips. Kept up the whole way, and rode higher gears and generally 
> faster than my norm.

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Ron Mc]

My ride wasn't so analytical. Chased my friends on their tandem for 30 mi in my 
toeclips. Kept up the whole way, and rode higher gears and generally faster 
than my norm.

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Deacon Patrick]

On todays ride I focused on my feet and how they function on the pedal 
without any support save their own structure. Observations of my experience:

   - The foot is dynamic, with multiple mechanisms interacting to form a 
   complex machine wondrously engineered.
   - Focusing on one mechanism of the foot to the exclusion of the others 
   and to the exclusion of the work being accomplished by the foot fails to 
   give an accurate understanding of what is happening, why, and how.
   - My understanding of the foot's anatomy of mechanisms (though I'm no 
   authority):
  - Metatarsal splay of forefoot disipates energy on landing when 
  running or jumping. Takes more than body weight and push-off force to 
  activate splay.
  - Heel: base of the column that is the lower leg. Very solid 
  vertically.
  - Windlass Mechanism of the inside mid-foot, which contains an arch 
  (that is actually not an arch but a coil or spring) of varying curvature 
  and can store/return energy or, with heel raised, flatten and link with 
the 
  outer mid-foot's cantilevered bridge to increase the foot's ability to 
  transfer force into the forefoot. The windlass mechanism absorbs and 
stores 
  energy at landing, returning it at push off.
  - Cantilevered bridge of the outside mid-foot, which allows for the 
  transfer of force between forefoot and heel. This allows for push-off 
when 
  running or jumping or pushing down on a pedal without loss of force into 
  the windlass mechanism.
   - There comes a point in pushing off/down/or lifting when the force 
   applied activates the foot splay mechanism. At this point, energy needs to 
   stop traveling through the forefoot and instead focus on the heel. Below 
   that threshold, forefoot pedaling is efficient and strong, above that 
   threshold mid-foot or heel pedaling is required.
   - Is there an advantage to forefoot pedaling below that threshold? I 
   suspect so, though I'm unsure why other than the motion of pushing off is 
   precisely the motion of pedaling except at high levels of force.
   - The weaker the foot, the less able it is to join the mid-foot as a 
   cantilevered bridge, leading to an experience of lost energy before the 
   foot splay threshold.
   - Does the windlass mechanism stay an arch when doing heavy lifting? I 
   doubt it. The "arch" has no load bearing column above it and isn't really 
   an arch at all, but a coil/spring. If it functioned as an arch does, it 
   would be directly below the heel, would it not? No. Something else is going 
   on in weight lifting.
   - Mid-foot pedaling for high force pedaling has us standing on the heel 
   and/or the outside mid-foot cantilevered bridge and allows for significant 
   forces in pedaling, forces above the toe splay threshold.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[JohnS]

This discussion is going in the direction of what  learn in yoga class. I 
think that's why I like it, it overlaps and lends it self to bicycling in a 
very good way.

JohnS


On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 1:43:19 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:

> Absolutely! Every motion we make should start with our core, getting 
> refined as it flows outward. Power is in the core.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 11:37:27 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> one thing is for sure, if you want a boost in your pedaling, it's not in 
>> the balls of your feet.  
>> It's in your core muscles.  If you're leaning on the bars, stop.  Bend 
>> your elbows and support yourself with your core muscles.  
>> No matter where your feet are, you will have a surge in pedal power and 
>> immediately pedal faster.  
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Deacon Patrick]

Absolutely! Every motion we make should start with our core, getting 
refined as it flows outward. Power is in the core.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 11:37:27 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> one thing is for sure, if you want a boost in your pedaling, it's not in 
> the balls of your feet.  
> It's in your core muscles.  If you're leaning on the bars, stop.  Bend 
> your elbows and support yourself with your core muscles.  
> No matter where your feet are, you will have a surge in pedal power and 
> immediately pedal faster.  
>

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Ron Mc]

one thing is for sure, if you want a boost in your pedaling, it's not in 
the balls of your feet.  
It's in your core muscles.  If you're leaning on the bars, stop.  Bend your 
elbows and support yourself with your core muscles.  
No matter where your feet are, you will have a surge in pedal power and 
immediately pedal faster.  

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Garth]

 
Aahahahahaahahahahahahahahahaha  !

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 11:05:33 AM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Nothing is incomplete because completeness is complete, and therefore 
> specs cannot be spec'd incompletely, in having completed themselves 
> completely, just as everything actual actually is, in all dimensions. One 
> is not limited because God, who made manufactures, is limitless, therefore 
> that way, whatever specific and actual way it is, is absolutely certain to 
> be complete. Actually. Just to clarify ;^)
>
> On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 9:20:18 AM UTC-4, Garth wrote:
>>
>> ...The specs would incomplete and limited if manufacturers would list the 
>> platform width only without listing the total with axle and all also. Same 
>> with platform length, to give the total(top and bottom) but not the actual 
>> length of each side individually(the only place where the foot can actually 
>> be) would be incomplete.  
>>
>>   I emailed them to find out the actual dimensions to clarify ..  
>> :)   All Good 
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks for that refreshing lucidity, Mark.

On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 9:05 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Nothing is incomplete because completeness is complete, and therefore
> specs cannot be spec'd incompletely, in having completed themselves
> completely, just as everything actual actually is, in all dimensions. One
> is not limited because God, who made manufactures, is limitless, therefore
> that way, whatever specific and actual way it is, is absolutely certain to
> be complete. Actually. Just to clarify ;^)
>
> On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 9:20:18 AM UTC-4, Garth wrote:
>>
>> ...The specs would incomplete and limited if manufacturers would list the
>> platform width only without listing the total with axle and all also. Same
>> with platform length, to give the total(top and bottom) but not the actual
>> length of each side individually(the only place where the foot can actually
>> be) would be incomplete.
>>
>>   I emailed them to find out the actual dimensions to clarify ..
>> :)   All Good
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Nothing is incomplete because completeness is complete, and therefore specs 
cannot be spec'd incompletely, in having completed themselves completely, 
just as everything actual actually is, in all dimensions. One is not 
limited because God, who made manufactures, is limitless, therefore that 
way, whatever specific and actual way it is, is absolutely certain to be 
complete. Actually. Just to clarify ;^)

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 9:20:18 AM UTC-4, Garth wrote:
>
> ...The specs would incomplete and limited if manufacturers would list the 
> platform width only without listing the total with axle and all also. Same 
> with platform length, to give the total(top and bottom) but not the actual 
> length of each side individually(the only place where the foot can actually 
> be) would be incomplete.  
>
>   I emailed them to find out the actual dimensions to clarify ..  :)   
> All Good 
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Garth]

"Rules are for prisoners and prisons for rulers"   

No rules, no prisoners  no rulers no prisons !   

 How many ways are there to ride a bike ?  To walk , to stand, to eat, to 
breathe , to do anything ?   Endless !!   Yee Haw ride 'em cowboy  ! 

 If God, perfection, intended oneself to be a specific way, whatever that 
way may be,  that way must be being a perfect way, and it would be 
impossible to be being any other way than a perfect way. Absolute certainty 
is and can only ever be being absolutely certain. The only possibilities 
could be ones of being absolute certainty, perfection. There could be no 
other, as what is not certain, perfect, could have and has no existence. 







On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 6:18:19 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> I'm also going to change my plea.  I'm not unorthodox, I'm merely 
> unconventional.  
> Isn't that what we do here, shatter conventions?  You can't pigeonhole us, 
> right?  We take the best of every technology and use what works, for 
> comfort, speed, efficiency, and just ride.  
> No, it's not a cruiser, maybe a sport tourer, but I like to think of it as 
> an upright rando.  
>
> This is as close as I can remember to quote/paraphrase:  "Man, I couldn't 
> believe how you took off from that last stop.  I chased you for 12 miles. 
>  You're really powerful on that cruiser.  I can't imagine what you could do 
> on a road bike"  
>
> On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 5:06:40 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> There's nothing fundamentally wrong with alternate foot positions.  If 
>> you like riding with the center of your foot over the pedal spindle on one 
>> of your bikes, that's great for you.  In 2016, it's unorthodox for spirited 
>> riding, and common for beach cruisers.  
>> ...
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, Ca
>>
>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Ron Mc]

I'm also going to change my plea.  I'm not unorthodox, I'm merely 
unconventional.  
Isn't that what we do here, shatter conventions?  You can't pigeonhole us, 
right?  We take the best of every technology and use what works, for 
comfort, speed, efficiency, and just ride.  
No, it's not a cruiser, maybe a sport tourer, but I like to think of it as 
an upright rando.  

This is as close as I can remember to quote/paraphrase:  "Man, I couldn't 
believe how you took off from that last stop.  I chased you for 12 miles. 
 You're really powerful on that cruiser.  I can't imagine what you could do 
on a road bike"  

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 5:06:40 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> There's nothing fundamentally wrong with alternate foot positions.  If you 
> like riding with the center of your foot over the pedal spindle on one of 
> your bikes, that's great for you.  In 2016, it's unorthodox for spirited 
> riding, and common for beach cruisers.  
> ...
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, Ca
>
>
>>

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Ron Mc]

But I'm also doing this on long-distance bikes, not beach cruisers. 
Probably unorthodox and I get strange looks from the pack at water stops. 
 And plenty spirited rides.  And in Merrells, not clipless cycling shoes. 
 (I do wear cycling shoes on the drop-bar road bike, exclusively, and still 
like my clips).  I've had people, including my best friend, preach at me 
about how much I need clipless since 1980, (they preached index, too, which 
I finally came around to with a compact double and long narrow-step 
cassette)
btw, wore out my last Merrells (heel support started coming apart), and my 
newest size 12 Merrells weigh 6 oz., and they breathe so well you can see 
through the fabric mesh.  

Yes, I'm throwing out my experience and showing the alternative, which I 
think those riding more upright bikes, or maybe experiencing foot pain, 
should consider.  
(the only time I experienced foot pain was riding shoes without shanks in 
the toe clip pedals - the wrong shoes)

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 5:06:40 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> There's nothing fundamentally wrong with alternate foot positions.  If you 
> like riding with the center of your foot over the pedal spindle on one of 
> your bikes, that's great for you.  In 2016, it's unorthodox for spirited 
> riding, and common for beach cruisers.  
>
> You are right that I never do over 100 mile rides without cycling shoes. 
>  I do 40 mile rides in floppy tennis shoes on platform pedals all the time, 
> but I've never done a 100 mile ride in tennies, so I don't know.  On 40 
> mile rides I have none of these arch straining problems that you have 
> experienced.  
>
> I now understand you aren't making any recommendations, and are just 
> reporting what works for you, and advising other to do what works for them. 
>  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, Ca
>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Bill Lindsay]

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with alternate foot positions.  If you 
like riding with the center of your foot over the pedal spindle on one of 
your bikes, that's great for you.  In 2016, it's unorthodox for spirited 
riding, and common for beach cruisers.  

You are right that I never do over 100 mile rides without cycling shoes.  I 
do 40 mile rides in floppy tennis shoes on platform pedals all the time, 
but I've never done a 100 mile ride in tennies, so I don't know.  On 40 
mile rides I have none of these arch straining problems that you have 
experienced.  

I now understand you aren't making any recommendations, and are just 
reporting what works for you, and advising other to do what works for them. 
 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, Ca

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 2:24:36 PM UTC-7, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> Bill, I'm not recommending that you do anything.  
> But here are two different bikes with two different riding positions.  
>
>
> 
>
> up high over the pedals, strongly leaning forward (on core muscles, 
> hopefully), riding on the ball of my feet, and need shoes with good shanks 
> so i don't strain my arches.  
>
>
>
> 
>
> sit behind the pedals and down a bit, arches of feet centered over axles 
> of long pedals, doesn't matter what I wear for shoes, but also have the 
> ability to move my feet forward on the pedals.  
>
> People are so big on alternate hand positions.  
>
> Is there something wrong with alternate feet positions?  I've ridden 
> 10,000 mi with my feet centered on pedals, and I like it.  
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Ron Mc]

and a 3rd bike with riding position in between the other two 



but it also benefits from long pedals - the Grip Kings are in this photo,  

I swapped them for the VP001, but now they have have narrower Blackspire, 
which give better clearance than the VP001

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Re: [RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Deacon Patrick]

But see, Eric, we got the infomercial foot. An arch is great for stability 
while standing, but we also need to run across the savanna to persistence 
hunt our Kudu. Our foot is not just an arch, but an arch that becomes a 
windlass mechanism for storing and returning energy. Grin. I'm not sure how 
the physics of that work on a bike pedal, but the experience of riding most 
of the time for me is very close to the experience of running, not weight 
lifting. Weight lifting kicks in only for the steep climbs.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 2:56:34 PM UTC-6, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Arches support the load by distributing the forces to the ends of the 
> arch, not the middle. I suspect feet (which are a natural arch structure) 
> operate on the same principle. In the case of the foot, the two "ends" are 
> the heel and the ball of the foot.
>
> [image: image1.JPG]
>
> In the same vein, this is why saddles like the Brooks B17 support the 
> weight of your body on the natural arches in your pelvis, not on a more 
> sensitive area between them ...
>
> --Eric N
> www.CampyOnly.com 
> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Ron Mc]

Bill, I'm not recommending that you do anything.  
But here are two different bikes with two different riding positions.  



up high over the pedals, strongly leaning forward (on core muscles, 
hopefully), riding on the ball of my feet, and need shoes with good shanks 
so i don't strain my arches.  




sit behind the pedals and down a bit, arches of feet centered over axles of 
long pedals, doesn't matter what I wear for shoes, but also have the 
ability to move my feet forward on the pedals.  

People are so big on alternate hand positions.  

Is there something wrong with alternate feet positions?  I've ridden 10,000 
mi with my feet centered on pedals, and I like it.  



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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Bill Lindsay]

Ron, I get it that you are recommending that I move my foot about two 
inches forward on my pedals, meaning that I'd need a much different saddle 
height and maybe even a different frame size between riding with SPDs vs 
platform pedals.  I understand you are recommending it for my own good, and 
I'm grateful that you care that much about me and my feet.  I'm pointing 
out that it's a very unorthodox, even radical, idea.  

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 2:03:52 PM UTC-7, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> Bill did you learn that way, or did you not have a choice?  Flat pedals 
> give you a choice of what shoes you wear.  
> If you were riding clipless, I promise there were shanks in your shoes 
> that were supporting your arches - they're built into the shoes.  .  
> This isn't my vendor, we came to the same conclusion independently.  
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Steve Palincsar]

Well, the point is if you place your arch firmly on the pedal the way 
kids everywhere ride bikes with rubber pedals & no retention (i.e., 
using the edge of your shoe's heel to keep the foot located) you are 
going to be loading your arch right square in the middle, under the 
keystone in your illustration.


On 04/01/2016 04:56 PM, Eric Norris wrote:
Arches support the load by distributing the forces to the ends of the 
arch, not the middle. I suspect feet (which are a natural arch 
structure) operate on the same principle. In the case of the foot, the 
two "ends" are the heel and the ball of the foot.


image1.JPG

In the same vein, this is why saddles like the Brooks B17 support the 
weight of your body on the natural arches in your pelvis, not on a 
more sensitive area between them ...


--Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com 
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

On Apr 1, 2016, at 1:48 PM, Steve Palincsar > wrote:


and who walks loading their arch?  Sometimes it's hard to tell April 
1 from any other, ordinary day around here...


On 04/01/2016 04:43 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:


We all learned to position our foot over the pedal like this:




Your flat-pedal vendor wants us to move that big toe knuckle all the 
way forward to the leading edge of our huge flat platform pedals.  I 
might be into that foot-pedal positioning if I was riding a beach 
cruiser at Burning Man:





But for normal riding?  I think that's a little too radical for my 
tastes.  Just because I use my heel when I walk does not necessarily 
mean I must load my heel when pedaling a bicycle.



Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA




On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 3:55:10 AM UTC-7, Ron Mc wrote:

There was something I always liked about Grip Kings (MKS
Lambda).  Though narrow (good for clearance), too thick, and not
quite grippy, at almost 120mm long, they center very nicely
under your arch and give you support mostly from ball to heel -
maybe not quite with my ice skate feet.  But they gives you
great mash, great spin, and low strain on your arches with any
shoes.
Deac notwithstanding, if you're pedaling on the ball of your
foot, you really need to be in shoes with solid shanks,
otherwise part of your pedaling energy goes into straining (and
injuring) your arches.

Most grippy flat pedals are wide and short - some too wide
endangering clearance,  and most too short.  some are over 110mm
wide now, but most are merely 95mm long.
Lived a year on my Race Face Atlas now.  I bought these because
they were "oversquare".  101mm wide x 114mm long (and a near
freakish 12mm thick). . Aside from a too early (warranty) axle
click, I've really loved these pedals.  With the way they're
holding up now on the new axle, I'll also have to say they're
worth the price.

Pedaling Innovations in CO has been making The really long pedal
now for about a year, the Catalyst.  These are 95mm wide x 128mm
long - this is a serious platform, and the narrow width (by
current standards) keeps cornering clearance reasonably safe.
They have a pretty good argument on their home page why long is
better, and they're getting pretty good reviews (though they are
heavy).  Note Deac, loading the ball of your foot is for running
and jumping - you need the full arch - ball to heel - for
lifting weights and  mashing.
http://pedalinginnovations.com/ 

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Ron Mc]

Bill did you learn that way, or did you not have a choice?  Flat pedals 
give you a choice of what shoes you wear.  
If you were riding clipless, I promise there were shanks in your shoes that 
were supporting your arches - they're built into the shoes.  .  
This isn't my vendor, we came to the same conclusion independently.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Bill Lindsay]

Eric, I've seen you pedalling a bicycle before.  Your heel was not pressing 
directly on the pedal.  Your foot to pedal relationship was "normal".  Have 
you changed?  Did you have to lower your saddle a lot when you shifted your 
foot a few inches forward?

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 1:56:34 PM UTC-7, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Arches support the load by distributing the forces to the ends of the 
> arch, not the middle. I suspect feet (which are a natural arch structure) 
> operate on the same principle. In the case of the foot, the two "ends" are 
> the heel and the ball of the foot.
>
> [image: image1.JPG]
>
> In the same vein, this is why saddles like the Brooks B17 support the 
> weight of your body on the natural arches in your pelvis, not on a more 
> sensitive area between them ...
>
> --Eric N
> www.CampyOnly.com 
> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
>
> On Apr 1, 2016, at 1:48 PM, Steve Palincsar > 
> wrote:
>
> and who walks loading their arch?  Sometimes it's hard to tell April 1 
> from any other, ordinary day around here...
>
> On 04/01/2016 04:43 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> We all learned to position our foot over the pedal like this:
>
>
>
> 
>
> Your flat-pedal vendor wants us to move that big toe knuckle all the way 
> forward to the leading edge of our huge flat platform pedals.  I might be 
> into that foot-pedal positioning if I was riding a beach cruiser at Burning 
> Man:
>
>
>
> 
>
> But for normal riding?  I think that's a little too radical for my tastes. 
>  Just because I use my heel when I walk does not necessarily mean I must 
> load my heel when pedaling a bicycle.  
>
>
> Bill Lindsay
>
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 3:55:10 AM UTC-7, Ron Mc wrote: 
>>
>> There was something I always liked about Grip Kings (MKS Lambda).  Though 
>> narrow (good for clearance), too thick, and not quite grippy, at almost 
>> 120mm long, they center very nicely under your arch and give you support 
>> mostly from ball to heel - maybe not quite with my ice skate feet.  But 
>> they gives you great mash, great spin, and low strain on your arches with 
>> any shoes.   
>> Deac notwithstanding, if you're pedaling on the ball of your foot, you 
>> really need to be in shoes with solid shanks, otherwise part of your 
>> pedaling energy goes into straining (and injuring) your arches.  
>>
>> Most grippy flat pedals are wide and short - some too wide endangering 
>> clearance,  and most too short.  some are over 110mm wide now, but most are 
>> merely 95mm long.  
>> Lived a year on my Race Face Atlas now.  I bought these because they were 
>> "oversquare".  101mm wide x 114mm long (and a near freakish 12mm thick). . 
>> Aside from a too early (warranty) axle click, I've really loved these 
>> pedals.  With the way they're holding up now on the new axle, I'll also 
>> have to say they're worth the price.  
>>
>> Pedaling Innovations in CO has been making The really long pedal now for 
>> about a year, the Catalyst.  These are 95mm wide x 128mm long - this is a 
>> serious platform, and the narrow width (by current standards) keeps 
>> cornering clearance reasonably safe. They have a pretty good argument on 
>> their home page why long is better, and they're getting pretty good reviews 
>> (though they are heavy).  Note Deac, loading the ball of your foot is for 
>> running and jumping - you need the full arch - ball to heel - for lifting 
>> weights and  mashing.  
>> http://pedalinginnovations.com/
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Eric Norris]

Arches support the load by distributing the forces to the ends of the arch, not 
the middle. I suspect feet (which are a natural arch structure) operate on the 
same principle. In the case of the foot, the two "ends" are the heel and the 
ball of the foot.



In the same vein, this is why saddles like the Brooks B17 support the weight of 
your body on the natural arches in your pelvis, not on a more sensitive area 
between them ...

--Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

> On Apr 1, 2016, at 1:48 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> 
> and who walks loading their arch?  Sometimes it's hard to tell April 1 from 
> any other, ordinary day around here...
> 
>> On 04/01/2016 04:43 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>> We all learned to position our foot over the pedal like this:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your flat-pedal vendor wants us to move that big toe knuckle all the way 
>> forward to the leading edge of our huge flat platform pedals.  I might be 
>> into that foot-pedal positioning if I was riding a beach cruiser at Burning 
>> Man:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> But for normal riding?  I think that's a little too radical for my tastes.  
>> Just because I use my heel when I walk does not necessarily mean I must load 
>> my heel when pedaling a bicycle.  
>> 
>> 
>> Bill Lindsay
>> 
>> El Cerrito, CA
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 3:55:10 AM UTC-7, Ron Mc wrote:
>>> There was something I always liked about Grip Kings (MKS Lambda).  Though 
>>> narrow (good for clearance), too thick, and not quite grippy, at almost 
>>> 120mm long, they center very nicely under your arch and give you support 
>>> mostly from ball to heel - maybe not quite with my ice skate feet.  But 
>>> they gives you great mash, great spin, and low strain on your arches with 
>>> any shoes.  
>>> Deac notwithstanding, if you're pedaling on the ball of your foot, you 
>>> really need to be in shoes with solid shanks, otherwise part of your 
>>> pedaling energy goes into straining (and injuring) your arches.  
>>> 
>>> Most grippy flat pedals are wide and short - some too wide endangering 
>>> clearance,  and most too short.  some are over 110mm wide now, but most are 
>>> merely 95mm long.  
>>> Lived a year on my Race Face Atlas now.  I bought these because they were 
>>> "oversquare".  101mm wide x 114mm long (and a near freakish 12mm thick). . 
>>> Aside from a too early (warranty) axle click, I've really loved these 
>>> pedals.  With the way they're holding up now on the new axle, I'll also 
>>> have to say they're worth the price.  
>>> 
>>> Pedaling Innovations in CO has been making The really long pedal now for 
>>> about a year, the Catalyst.  These are 95mm wide x 128mm long - this is a 
>>> serious platform, and the narrow width (by current standards) keeps 
>>> cornering clearance reasonably safe. They have a pretty good argument on 
>>> their home page why long is better, and they're getting pretty good reviews 
>>> (though they are heavy).  Note Deac, loading the ball of your foot is for 
>>> running and jumping - you need the full arch - ball to heel - for lifting 
>>> weights and  mashing.  
>>> http://pedalinginnovations.com/
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Re: [RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Steve Palincsar]

and who walks loading their arch?  Sometimes it's hard to tell April 1 
from any other, ordinary day around here...


On 04/01/2016 04:43 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:


We all learned to position our foot over the pedal like this:




Your flat-pedal vendor wants us to move that big toe knuckle all the 
way forward to the leading edge of our huge flat platform pedals.  I 
might be into that foot-pedal positioning if I was riding a beach 
cruiser at Burning Man:





But for normal riding?  I think that's a little too radical for my 
tastes.  Just because I use my heel when I walk does not necessarily 
mean I must load my heel when pedaling a bicycle.



Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA




On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 3:55:10 AM UTC-7, Ron Mc wrote:

There was something I always liked about Grip Kings (MKS Lambda).
 Though narrow (good for clearance), too thick, and not quite
grippy, at almost 120mm long, they center very nicely under your
arch and give you support mostly from ball to heel - maybe not
quite with my ice skate feet.  But they gives you great mash,
great spin, and low strain on your arches with any shoes.
Deac notwithstanding, if you're pedaling on the ball of your foot,
you really need to be in shoes with solid shanks, otherwise part
of your pedaling energy goes into straining (and injuring) your
arches.

Most grippy flat pedals are wide and short - some too wide
endangering clearance,  and most too short.  some are over 110mm
wide now, but most are merely 95mm long.
Lived a year on my Race Face Atlas now.  I bought these because
they were "oversquare".  101mm wide x 114mm long (and a near
freakish 12mm thick). . Aside from a too early (warranty) axle
click, I've really loved these pedals.  With the way they're
holding up now on the new axle, I'll also have to say they're
worth the price.

Pedaling Innovations in CO has been making The really long pedal
now for about a year, the Catalyst.  These are 95mm wide x 128mm
long - this is a serious platform, and the narrow width (by
current standards) keeps cornering clearance reasonably safe. They
have a pretty good argument on their home page why long is better,
and they're getting pretty good reviews (though they are heavy).
 Note Deac, loading the ball of your foot is for running and
jumping - you need the full arch - ball to heel - for lifting
weights and  mashing.
http://pedalinginnovations.com/ 

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Bill Lindsay]

We all learned to position our foot over the pedal like this:




Your flat-pedal vendor wants us to move that big toe knuckle all the way 
forward to the leading edge of our huge flat platform pedals.  I might be 
into that foot-pedal positioning if I was riding a beach cruiser at Burning 
Man:




But for normal riding?  I think that's a little too radical for my tastes. 
 Just because I use my heel when I walk does not necessarily mean I must 
load my heel when pedaling a bicycle.  


Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA




On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 3:55:10 AM UTC-7, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> There was something I always liked about Grip Kings (MKS Lambda).  Though 
> narrow (good for clearance), too thick, and not quite grippy, at almost 
> 120mm long, they center very nicely under your arch and give you support 
> mostly from ball to heel - maybe not quite with my ice skate feet.  But 
> they gives you great mash, great spin, and low strain on your arches with 
> any shoes.  
> Deac notwithstanding, if you're pedaling on the ball of your foot, you 
> really need to be in shoes with solid shanks, otherwise part of your 
> pedaling energy goes into straining (and injuring) your arches.  
>
> Most grippy flat pedals are wide and short - some too wide endangering 
> clearance,  and most too short.  some are over 110mm wide now, but most are 
> merely 95mm long.  
> Lived a year on my Race Face Atlas now.  I bought these because they were 
> "oversquare".  101mm wide x 114mm long (and a near freakish 12mm thick). . 
> Aside from a too early (warranty) axle click, I've really loved these 
> pedals.  With the way they're holding up now on the new axle, I'll also 
> have to say they're worth the price.  
>
> Pedaling Innovations in CO has been making The really long pedal now for 
> about a year, the Catalyst.  These are 95mm wide x 128mm long - this is a 
> serious platform, and the narrow width (by current standards) keeps 
> cornering clearance reasonably safe. They have a pretty good argument on 
> their home page why long is better, and they're getting pretty good reviews 
> (though they are heavy).  Note Deac, loading the ball of your foot is for 
> running and jumping - you need the full arch - ball to heel - for lifting 
> weights and  mashing.  
> http://pedalinginnovations.com/
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Ron Mc]

yeah, and heels have been around just as long, too  - you guys never step 
on your heels, you just walk on the balls of your feet?  

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Re: [RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Eric Norris]

I'll weigh in with an observation that bicycles weren't around when the human 
foot evolved. The specific needs of cycling might call for support ("binding"?) 
that wasn't needed when Man started walking.

--Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

> On Apr 1, 2016, at 12:57 PM, Mike in WA  wrote:
> 
> "but if foot muscles are weakened by wearing modern foot binding devices, 
> that efficiency decreases because the foot is not strong enough to function 
> as God intended"
> 
> Preach, Deacon! I fear that arch support could become the next helmet debate, 
> but I am with you on this. Minimalist shoes feel fantastic on a bike you 
> "just ride". 
> 
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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Mike in WA]

"but if foot muscles are weakened by wearing modern foot binding devices, that 
efficiency decreases because the foot is not strong enough to function as God 
intended"

Preach, Deacon! I fear that arch support could become the next helmet debate, 
but I am with you on this. Minimalist shoes feel fantastic on a bike you "just 
ride". 

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Justin August]

Deac-
I'm board with your observations. I'd try out these pedals if I hadn't just 
made a commitment to a much larger structure in which to house all my bike 
goodies.

-J

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 7:06:41 AM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Sweet! And, hey! They're getting there and I love that they are applying 
> running form analysis to pedaling. Looking at what they say on their 
> website (http://pedalinginnovations.com)...
>
> This is absolutely true when running: "You only push through the ball of 
> the foot when your foot needs to break contact with the ground, like when 
> you run or jump."
>
> This is absolutely true when standing and lifting: "But your foot acts 
> much differently if it doesn’t come off the ground, like when deadlifting 
> in the gym or picking up a heavy box. In this case your foot needs to stay 
> balanced between the heel and ball of the foot so you can apply force with 
> a strong, stable foot."
>
> But EITHER is true on the bike. We CAN pedal with efficiency using the 
> ball of our feet. Our body works to "push off" the "ground" but instead of 
> lifting us up it mushed the pedal down. Very efficient, smooth, and 
> biologically sound. But this is most efficient with equivalent force to 
> when we are running, which is at it's greatest when execrating. Try 
> running, barefoot, as fast as you can, then "coast" to maintain that speed 
> (or just imagine this in your head, but actually doing it will give you the 
> direct feel, and that will help in applying this to the bike later). Note 
> that the force is greatest with your initial push off as it must be to set 
> 100-300 pounds in motion. After that first stroke (stride), inertia is on 
> your side as your weight is moving forward. Keep the force up with each 
> stride and you will accelerate faster. But the goal here is not to overcome 
> gravity and go up (unless you are climbing, and then there is some of 
> that), the goal is to only defy gravity enough to go sideways to gravity 
> while flying briefly. Not much force is required. This is VERY similar to 
> the pedal stroke on a bicycle and the reason riding forefoot to the pedal 
> IS efficient (but if foot muscles are weakened by wearing modern foot 
> binding devices, that efficiency decreases because the foot is not strong 
> enough to function as God intended). Go ahead and stop your sprint now. 
> Grin.
>
> Now that you're huffing and puffing in the middle of the road or trail and 
> everyone is staring at you and your barefeet, jump up and down. High as you 
> can. Same thing. You go off the ball of your foot.
>
> Now, pick up a log or a rock or a passing pedestrian. Something heavier 
> than you would jump with, or even walk with. You're just going to stand 
> there. Holding 500 pounds. On your mid-foot and heel. This IS the most 
> stable position when not in motion. This is the position that affords us 
> the greatest power. Put the little old lady you picked up (or two, if 
> you're that strong), and set them on their way with a hearty thank you, 
> assuring them they have participated in increasing the experiential 
> knowledge of the world.
>
> Practical application: 90+% of the time, I ride with my forefoot (not 
> toes, ball of foot) over the pedal axel. It is smooth and efficient and has 
> plenty of power for most riding everywhere but climbing up steep slopes. 
> When I stand to pedal, I shift to my mid-foot over the axel, keep my knees 
> as bent as I can and rock my weight from side to side, more akin to the 
> weight lifter than the runner as I pull up on the bar with both hands as 
> each foot, with my body weight over it, pushes down on the pedal. This is 
> for 12% grade or higher. Most would never need it.
>
> Conclusion: Great pedal. Solid marketing. Poor logic and reason of 
> conclusion based on the facts and realities of running, weight lifting, and 
> when and were bicycle pedaling is like which one of those.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick (who uses ALL the width of the VP Vice, and wouldn't mind the 
> length of the Catalyst when standing to climb.)
>
> On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 4:55:10 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> Deac notwithstanding, if you're pedaling on the ball of your foot, you 
>> really need to be in shoes with solid shanks, otherwise part of your 
>> pedaling energy goes into straining (and injuring) your arches.  
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[John Phillips]

I can see the benefits of a long & narrow pedal in concept, I like the 
shape of the Grip Kings, but it seems to me that the benefits could only 
truly be realized if these pedals were sold in sizes to match shoe sizes. 
Otherwise, a one-size-fits-all pedal is going to be too long for small 
feet, and too short for big feet. This pedal isn't going to be a better 
pedal except for those with Goldilocks feet.

And speaking of Goldilocks, should I buy the limited edition gold pedals, 
or blue pedals to match my Homer?  ;)

John

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Ron Mc]

I can't speak for these specific pedals, but I rode Grip Kings for more 
than a year and spent almost the entire past year on Raceface Atlas - both 
oversquare pedals.  Also VP-001 for a couple of years, which are exactly 
square.  And 40 years on cage pedals.  Right now my go-fast bike has Nuevo 
Wide with Ale toeclips and Binda straps.  The whole point of the cage 
pedlals, clips and straps is to ride on the ball of your foot.  A good 60 
mile ride in the right shoes, and you're ok.  A 30 mile ride in the wrong 
shoes and your arches will be strained.  
It's not because my arches are weak as Deac has argued before, it's because 
without actual bicycle shoes with shanks, too much pedaling energy goes 
into straining your arches instead of into the road.  .  

With flat pedals, I always begin with my arches centered over the axle, and 
have ridden over 80 miles in shoes without shanks and no foot strain.  In 
my case, the shoes are Merrells.  However, it is also nice you can move 
your foot forward or back on the pedal to ride on the ball of your foot 
part of the time (especially on switchbacks where you would kick the front 
wheel), and I've even found a spin where kicking heel first uses a 
different tendon combination.  
So I'll generally say I like flat pedals with normal shoes, and I like 
solid-shank riding shoes for the whole sit-high over the pedals drop-bar 
riding position.  

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 9:09:56 AM UTC-5, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:
>
> I would be interested in hearing anyone's experience with these pedals.  I 
> have issues with Morton's Neuroma and I can't decide if the forward foot 
> placement of this pedal would put more pressure on the neuroma and make it 
> worse or the fully supported arch would take enough pressure off the 
> neuroma to result in less pain.  
>
>
>>

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I would be interested in hearing anyone's experience with these pedals.  I 
have issues with Morton's Neuroma and I can't decide if the forward foot 
placement of this pedal would put more pressure on the neuroma and make it 
worse or the fully supported arch would take enough pressure off the 
neuroma to result in less pain.  



On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 5:55:10 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> There was something I always liked about Grip Kings (MKS Lambda).  Though 
> narrow (good for clearance), too thick, and not quite grippy, at almost 
> 120mm long, they center very nicely under your arch and give you support 
> mostly from ball to heel - maybe not quite with my ice skate feet.  But 
> they gives you great mash, great spin, and low strain on your arches with 
> any shoes.  
> Deac notwithstanding, if you're pedaling on the ball of your foot, you 
> really need to be in shoes with solid shanks, otherwise part of your 
> pedaling energy goes into straining (and injuring) your arches.  
>
> Most grippy flat pedals are wide and short - some too wide endangering 
> clearance,  and most too short.  some are over 110mm wide now, but most are 
> merely 95mm long.  
> Lived a year on my Race Face Atlas now.  I bought these because they were 
> "oversquare".  101mm wide x 114mm long (and a near freakish 12mm thick). . 
> Aside from a too early (warranty) axle click, I've really loved these 
> pedals.  With the way they're holding up now on the new axle, I'll also 
> have to say they're worth the price.  
>
> Pedaling Innovations in CO has been making The really long pedal now for 
> about a year, the Catalyst.  These are 95mm wide x 128mm long - this is a 
> serious platform, and the narrow width (by current standards) keeps 
> cornering clearance reasonably safe. They have a pretty good argument on 
> their home page why long is better, and they're getting pretty good reviews 
> (though they are heavy).  Note Deac, loading the ball of your foot is for 
> running and jumping - you need the full arch - ball to heel - for lifting 
> weights and  mashing.  
> http://pedalinginnovations.com/
>

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Deacon Patrick]

Sweet! And, hey! They're getting there and I love that they are applying 
running form analysis to pedaling. Looking at what they say on their 
website (http://pedalinginnovations.com)...

This is absolutely true when running: "You only push through the ball of 
the foot when your foot needs to break contact with the ground, like when 
you run or jump."

This is absolutely true when standing and lifting: "But your foot acts much 
differently if it doesn’t come off the ground, like when deadlifting in the 
gym or picking up a heavy box. In this case your foot needs to stay 
balanced between the heel and ball of the foot so you can apply force with 
a strong, stable foot."

But EITHER is true on the bike. We CAN pedal with efficiency using the ball 
of our feet. Our body works to "push off" the "ground" but instead of 
lifting us up it mushed the pedal down. Very efficient, smooth, and 
biologically sound. But this is most efficient with equivalent force to 
when we are running, which is at it's greatest when execrating. Try 
running, barefoot, as fast as you can, then "coast" to maintain that speed 
(or just imagine this in your head, but actually doing it will give you the 
direct feel, and that will help in applying this to the bike later). Note 
that the force is greatest with your initial push off as it must be to set 
100-300 pounds in motion. After that first stroke (stride), inertia is on 
your side as your weight is moving forward. Keep the force up with each 
stride and you will accelerate faster. But the goal here is not to overcome 
gravity and go up (unless you are climbing, and then there is some of 
that), the goal is to only defy gravity enough to go sideways to gravity 
while flying briefly. Not much force is required. This is VERY similar to 
the pedal stroke on a bicycle and the reason riding forefoot to the pedal 
IS efficient (but if foot muscles are weakened by wearing modern foot 
binding devices, that efficiency decreases because the foot is not strong 
enough to function as God intended). Go ahead and stop your sprint now. 
Grin.

Now that you're huffing and puffing in the middle of the road or trail and 
everyone is staring at you and your barefeet, jump up and down. High as you 
can. Same thing. You go off the ball of your foot.

Now, pick up a log or a rock or a passing pedestrian. Something heavier 
than you would jump with, or even walk with. You're just going to stand 
there. Holding 500 pounds. On your mid-foot and heel. This IS the most 
stable position when not in motion. This is the position that affords us 
the greatest power. Put the little old lady you picked up (or two, if 
you're that strong), and set them on their way with a hearty thank you, 
assuring them they have participated in increasing the experiential 
knowledge of the world.

Practical application: 90+% of the time, I ride with my forefoot (not toes, 
ball of foot) over the pedal axel. It is smooth and efficient and has 
plenty of power for most riding everywhere but climbing up steep slopes. 
When I stand to pedal, I shift to my mid-foot over the axel, keep my knees 
as bent as I can and rock my weight from side to side, more akin to the 
weight lifter than the runner as I pull up on the bar with both hands as 
each foot, with my body weight over it, pushes down on the pedal. This is 
for 12% grade or higher. Most would never need it.

Conclusion: Great pedal. Solid marketing. Poor logic and reason of 
conclusion based on the facts and realities of running, weight lifting, and 
when and were bicycle pedaling is like which one of those.

With abandon,
Patrick (who uses ALL the width of the VP Vice, and wouldn't mind the 
length of the Catalyst when standing to climb.)

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 4:55:10 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> Deac notwithstanding, if you're pedaling on the ball of your foot, you 
> really need to be in shoes with solid shanks, otherwise part of your 
> pedaling energy goes into straining (and injuring) your arches.  
>

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Garth]

Okay Ron, that explains why it seems narrow to me.  When I look at a pedal 
width I assume it's the actual total width , from inside of the crank arm 
to the outside edge of the platform. The specs would incomplete and limited 
if manufacturers would list the platform width only without listing the 
total with axle and all also. Same with platform length, to give the 
total(top and bottom) but not the actual length of each side 
individually(the only place where the foot can actually be) would be 
incomplete.  

  I emailed them to find out the actual dimensions to clarify ..  :)   
All Good 



On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 8:27:02 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> Garth, those are platform dimensions.  The axle bolt extension of course 
> adds to it.  Most new platform pedals have very short extension from the 
> crank.  If you look at the Grip Kings, they have a very long cantilevered 
> axle, but still end up being closer to the crank than some of the really 
> wide new pedals - e.g., Harrier
>
> On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 7:21:28 AM UTC-5, Garth wrote:
>>
>>   These pedals sound interesting Ron , do you mean the 95mm width is 
>> (mounted) from the inside of the crank arm to the outside of the pedal, and 
>> the 128mm length the actual usable portion (of each side) of the total 
>> listed 143mm(both sides) ?
>>
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Ron Mc]

ps, I started looking at the width part very seriously. I rode my upright 
cross frame with the Atlas pedals almost exclusively for most of a year, 
just because I love it and can't leave it alone.  On New Year's Eve day, I 
decided to take out my old Raleigh with the VP-001.  Charging up a 
switchback I was used to on the upright, I stuck the pedal, the bike 
instantly went down and I sprained my ankle (just now back to 98%).  I've 
replaced those pedals with some narrower  and if anybody wants a 
such-a-deal on a scarred set of VP-001, LMK.  

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Ron Mc]

Garth, those are platform dimensions.  The axle bolt extension of course 
adds to it.  Most new platform pedals have very short extension from the 
crank.  If you look at the Grip Kings, they have a very long cantilevered 
axle, but still end up being closer to the crank than some of the really 
wide new pedals - e.g., Harrier

On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 7:21:28 AM UTC-5, Garth wrote:
>
>   These pedals sound interesting Ron , do you mean the 95mm width is 
> (mounted) from the inside of the crank arm to the outside of the pedal, and 
> the 128mm length the actual usable portion (of each side) of the total 
> listed 143mm(both sides) ?
>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: flat pedals, thin pedals, long pedals

[Garth]

  These pedals sound interesting Ron , do you mean the 95mm width is 
(mounted) from the inside of the crank arm to the outside of the pedal, and 
the 128mm length the actual usable portion (of each side) of the total 
listed 143mm(both sides) ?

   



On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 6:55:10 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> There was something I always liked about Grip Kings (MKS Lambda).  Though 
> narrow (good for clearance), too thick, and not quite grippy, at almost 
> 120mm long, they center very nicely under your arch and give you support 
> mostly from ball to heel - maybe not quite with my ice skate feet.  But 
> they gives you great mash, great spin, and low strain on your arches with 
> any shoes.  
> Deac notwithstanding, if you're pedaling on the ball of your foot, you 
> really need to be in shoes with solid shanks, otherwise part of your 
> pedaling energy goes into straining (and injuring) your arches.  
>
> Most grippy flat pedals are wide and short - some too wide endangering 
> clearance,  and most too short.  some are over 110mm wide now, but most are 
> merely 95mm long.  
> Lived a year on my Race Face Atlas now.  I bought these because they were 
> "oversquare".  101mm wide x 114mm long (and a near freakish 12mm thick). . 
> Aside from a too early (warranty) axle click, I've really loved these 
> pedals.  With the way they're holding up now on the new axle, I'll also 
> have to say they're worth the price.  
>
> Pedaling Innovations in CO has been making The really long pedal now for 
> about a year, the Catalyst.  These are 95mm wide x 128mm long - this is a 
> serious platform, and the narrow width (by current standards) keeps 
> cornering clearance reasonably safe. They have a pretty good argument on 
> their home page why long is better, and they're getting pretty good reviews 
> (though they are heavy).  Note Deac, loading the ball of your foot is for 
> running and jumping - you need the full arch - ball to heel - for lifting 
> weights and  mashing.  
> http://pedalinginnovations.com/
>

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[RBW] Re: Flat pedals!

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I run the VP-001 aka Gripsters on my Cross-check fixie. So far no pedal strike 
on the 170 mm cranks and 38 mm tires, but that's never been a huge issue for me.

The latest VP-001 and Vice pedals are my favorites to date. I used a lot of Sun 
Ringle Zuzu pedals for the last couple years. Before that I used MKS Sylvan 
Touring. Hated the grip/slip kings every time I tried them.

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[RBW] Re: Flat pedals!

[Mike On A Bike]

Can anyone speak to the clearance of the Thin Gripsters? I'm thinking
of switching from GK's to those on my Quickbeam-fixie, and not
scraping would be nice. Planning to go with a side-by-side comparison
running the VO Sabot on my Hillborne, as those seem surely too wide
for a fixie.

On Jan 22, 8:45 pm, Eric Platt  wrote:
> Another one who has been switching over to the Thin Gripsters.  My
> SimpleOne still has the Sneaker pedals, but my other two bikes have the
> Gripsters.  They really work well with the Keens in both summer and winter.
> Have a set of insulated Keens that I wear in warmer winter weather.
>
> My alltime favorites were probably the old SunTour XC beartraps.  But those
> really cut up shins when a foot slips off. Much worse than the Gripsters,
> if I remember correctly.
>
> Eric Platt
> St. Paul, MN
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Mike  wrote:
> > Ryan, I've been a big fan of the Grip Kings and Sneaker pedals and have
> > had no issues with the bearings at all. The Sneaker pedals are a great deal
> > but like the GKs they don't offer that great of a grip in the rain and
> > living in Portland, OR that can be quite an issue. I put some spikes in the
> > GKs and they're much better. I also recently got some VP Thin Gripsters and
> > really love them. I'll most likely pick up another pair when RBW has them
> > back in stock. If I remember correctly, you live in Seattle so the VPs
> > would probably work well for you.
>
> > --mike
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Flat pedals!

[Tomio Tran]

Has anyone tried the Tioga Mt-Zeroes? They look interesting, though the 
following review doesn't sound too great.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Tioga-MT-ZERO-Pedal-Tested-2012.html

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Re: [RBW] Re: Flat pedals!

[Eric Platt]

Another one who has been switching over to the Thin Gripsters.  My
SimpleOne still has the Sneaker pedals, but my other two bikes have the
Gripsters.  They really work well with the Keens in both summer and winter.
Have a set of insulated Keens that I wear in warmer winter weather.

My alltime favorites were probably the old SunTour XC beartraps.  But those
really cut up shins when a foot slips off. Much worse than the Gripsters,
if I remember correctly.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Mike  wrote:

> Ryan, I've been a big fan of the Grip Kings and Sneaker pedals and have
> had no issues with the bearings at all. The Sneaker pedals are a great deal
> but like the GKs they don't offer that great of a grip in the rain and
> living in Portland, OR that can be quite an issue. I put some spikes in the
> GKs and they're much better. I also recently got some VP Thin Gripsters and
> really love them. I'll most likely pick up another pair when RBW has them
> back in stock. If I remember correctly, you live in Seattle so the VPs
> would probably work well for you.
>
> --mike
>
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[RBW] Re: Flat pedals!

[Mike]

Ryan, I've been a big fan of the Grip Kings and Sneaker pedals and have had 
no issues with the bearings at all. The Sneaker pedals are a great deal but 
like the GKs they don't offer that great of a grip in the rain and living 
in Portland, OR that can be quite an issue. I put some spikes in the GKs 
and they're much better. I also recently got some VP Thin Gripsters and 
really love them. I'll most likely pick up another pair when RBW has them 
back in stock. If I remember correctly, you live in Seattle so the VPs 
would probably work well for you.

--mike

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[RBW] Re: Flat pedals!

[Brad Mitchell]

I put the Thin Gripsters on my (your old) Rawland and I believe they are 
now my favorite pedals.. even considering switching out all my other pedals 
and put a pair of these on all of my bikes. Just perfect for me for 
commuting, road riding (I'm finally over clipless pedals I think), and even 
off-road riding. They are the best pedals I've used yet..

I have no experience with the Grip Kings, just FYI. Though I have used all 
the other pedals Riv sells and none compare to the Thin Gripsters.

Brad




On Tuesday, January 22, 2013 12:18:07 AM UTC-6, rcnute wrote:
>
> Hi, all: If one Grant-ish thing has particularly stuck with me it's love 
> for flat pedals.  Mostly I've been using Grip Kings but I was wondering 
> what folks thought of the various possibilities a la Sneaker pedal, 
> Gripsters, etc.  (Ideally something with some grip since I ride in the rain 
> a fair bit.)  Sorry if this has already been covered.  Thanks!
>
> Ryan
>

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[RBW] Re: Flat pedals!

[BSWP]

After using the Thin Gripsters on my Rivs, I'm hard-pressed to understand 
why anyone would ever use thicker platform pedals. The best I can explain 
is that it simply feels better having my foot that much closer to the pedal 
axle.

- Andrew, Berkeley

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[RBW] Re: Flat pedals!

[Mike On A Bike]

I've also used Grip Kings for a while, but as I mentioned recently,
can't stand the ball bearings and plastic dust caps. I ride in
minimalist running shoes (Vivo Barefoot) and I love the sound of a
pedal that provides lots of support and is probably superbly built
because it's VO. Velo Orange has a new pedal that looks like the bee's
knees-- huge platform, sealed bearings, good looks-- Epicurean Cyclist
review here: 
http://pathlesspedaled.com/2012/12/review-velo-orange-sabot-pedal-a-pedal-revolution/

I plan to buy these this week.

On Jan 22, 1:23 am, Brian Hanson  wrote:
> I like the MKS Sneakers and VP Thin Gripsters.  The latter probably a bit
> more, as they don't hit the pavement in corners quite as early.  They are
> also sticky enough to remind me of clipless when sticky rubber-soled shoes
> are worn, like the excellent Evolve Cruzers.  This all said, I'm currently
> back in Sidis for the rando season.  However, if it continues to be cold, I
> may just start wearing my boots and flats...
>
> Brian Hanson
> Seattle, WA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 10:18 PM, rcnute  wrote:
> > Hi, all: If one Grant-ish thing has particularly stuck with me it's love
> > for flat pedals.  Mostly I've been using Grip Kings but I was wondering
> > what folks thought of the various possibilities a la Sneaker pedal,
> > Gripsters, etc.  (Ideally something with some grip since I ride in the rain
> > a fair bit.)  Sorry if this has already been covered.  Thanks!
>
> > Ryan
>
> > --
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[RBW] Re: Flat pedals and special shoes?

[Michael]

>
> I wear some blue canvas sneakers that are about 10 years old. I think they 
> are Pumas or Nikes. 
>
I use MKS Touring Pedals with MKS Steel Deep Toe Clips - no straps. I just 
> like the clips because they keep my foot in place so I don't slip off the 
> pedal in case of big bumps.
>
Holds my foot just as securely as my racing get-up used to. And for a 
fraction of the cost. And for a ton more comfort, and ease of just hopping 
off the bike and being able to walk around normally at any destination.
 
I don't think i will ever go back to clipless again unless forced to. 

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[RBW] Re: Flat pedals and special shoes?

[Kelly]

My special, super secret sauce, platform pedal shoes are...  uhhh.. hmmm.. 
(thinking) wait I have it.. oh.. ya.. the shoes on my feet.  If they fit my 
feet and are super comfortable then they are bike shoes too. 

I consider myself lucky to enjoy and not miss the connection of clippless 
or even toe straps.  In all honesty there are times I miss clipless .. 
but so rare as to be meaningless.   

Not for everyone .. I'm just glad it works for me... riding shoes are 
costly.

Kelly

On Saturday, December 15, 2012 11:39:53 AM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> So, what's with buying special shoes to use with flat pedals? I 
> thought the whole point of no retention was that you can use any 
> street shoe with a sufficiently soft bottom -- ie, that you don't need 
> special shoes. What am I missing? 
>
> Have tried flat/no-retention and didn't like it, but then I was using 
> mere Bass or Timberland boat shoes. That said, I know of one man who 
> beats his full sus comrades on technical singletrack on a no-susp ss 
> and who swears by flat pedals with old fashion tennis shoes. 
>
> Patrick "Look and Spuds can't be beat/For my ever circling feet" Moore 
>
> -- 
>
> - 
> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA 
> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW 
> http://resumespecialties.com/index.html 
> - 
>

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[RBW] Re: Flat pedals and special shoes?

[Garth]

My "special" shoes are Birkentoscks  lol.  Arizona's in summer, 
Boston's in winter :)


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