Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Patrick Moore]

That's perfect!

On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 8:50 AM, WETH  wrote:

> From the current issue of the *New Yorker:*
>
>
> On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 9:11:23 AM UTC-4, Matthew J wrote:
>>
>> Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but this picture posted yesterday
>> on a Crazyguyonabike journal I've been following is so typical of the way
>> European (and many Asian) cycle tourists dress just had to link.
>>
>> The two in the picture are currently in Thailand have ridden overland
>> from France.  Despite their loose and decidedly non-road attire they say
>> they've been averaging 20 km per hour!  Europe obviously has a very strong
>> road cycling culture with people who dress the part.  Nonetheless,
>> commuters and most tourists dress very Grantesque despite probably never
>> having even heard of RBW.
>>
>> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=Sh&pic_id=
>> 2211711&size=large
>>
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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Matthew J]

Yeah.  Hats off to him for putting so much effort into the journal.  When I 
tour come the end of the dead I pretty much crash into a heap wherever I 
stop my bike.

On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 5:17:46 PM UTC-5, Edwin W wrote:
>
> I've been following that journal and he is pretty amusing. As are Boris 
> and Antoine.
>

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Edwin W]

I've been following that journal and he is pretty amusing. As are Boris and 
Antoine.

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Matthew J]

Brilliant.  So on point.

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[WETH]

>From the current issue of the *New Yorker:*


On Wednesday, March 11, 2015 at 9:11:23 AM UTC-4, Matthew J wrote:
>
> Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but this picture posted yesterday on 
> a Crazyguyonabike journal I've been following is so typical of the way 
> European (and many Asian) cycle tourists dress just had to link.
>
> The two in the picture are currently in Thailand have ridden overland from 
> France.  Despite their loose and decidedly non-road attire they say they've 
> been averaging 20 km per hour!  Europe obviously has a very strong road 
> cycling culture with people who dress the part.  Nonetheless, commuters and 
> most tourists dress very Grantesque despite probably never having even 
> heard of RBW.
>
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=Sh&pic_id=2211711&size=large
>

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Matthew J]

Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but this picture posted yesterday on 
a Crazyguyonabike journal I've been following is so typical of the way 
European (and many Asian) cycle tourists dress just had to link.

The two in the picture are currently in Thailand have ridden overland from 
France.  Despite their loose and decidedly non-road attire they say they've 
been averaging 20 km per hour!  Europe obviously has a very strong road 
cycling culture with people who dress the part.  Nonetheless, commuters and 
most tourists dress very Grantesque despite probably never having even 
heard of RBW.

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/pic/?o=Sh&pic_id=2211711&size=large

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[John]

This all reminds me I personally need to be WAY MORE tolerant & WAY MORE 
patient and give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they may just be 
having a bad day, or I just don't understand where they are coming from.

Besides, my Hawaiian shirts, Luxos headlight, 2 sets of MonkeyLectric 
Monkey Lights, 3 flashing rear lights, and tendency to whistle the tunes 
from Close Encounters or the X-Files as I ride through my neighborhood must 
annoy someone.

John

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Bill Lindsay]

Totally.  Let's all be Un-Unracers!  Oh, wait...darnit!

On Friday, February 27, 2015 at 2:52:14 PM UTC-8, Trenker wrote:
>
>
>
> If you call yourself an Unracer doesn't that mean you still have some form 
> of preoccupation with racing? 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Trenker]

If you call yourself an Unracer doesn't that mean you still have some form 
of preoccupation with racing? 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

['hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch]

It's the standard Sugino XD 600.

On Friday, February 27, 2015 at 9:59:33 AM UTC-8, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> What kind of crank is it? Some cranks with small BCD and large, stamped 
> rings can flex a lot. 
>
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:58 AM, 'hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>> If it isn't the frame than I suppose it must be the Sugino crank.  
>> Something's flexing.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>> On Friday, February 27, 2015 at 4:46:38 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>>
>>> On 02/27/2015 01:14 AM, 'hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote: 
>>> > "When your bike weighs 90 pounds, a 2nd top tube may actually be doing 
>>> > you some good!" 
>>> > 
>>> > I cannot agree and feel compelled to reply because I think others 
>>> > could be misled.  I'm no heavyweight (170 lbs.) and commute on a 2-TT 
>>> > 60cm Hillborne.  Granted I carry a commuters load in the rear but 
>>> > nothing close to a 90 lbs. bike.  When I stand to climb hills, which I 
>>> > do every day, I'll get a "bit" of chain rub on the front derailleur 
>>> > even when the adjustment is finely tuned; friction shifting of 
>>> > course.  I'm no expert, but I believe this would be caused by frame 
>>> > flex.  AND THAT"s with a 2nd top tube.  I'd hate to think what this 
>>> > particular frame would be like  without. So the ride is not as 
>>> > stiff as some might believe. 
>>> > 
>>>
>>> Matt, I think you are wrong.  I weigh 50 lb more than you, and when I 
>>> climb out of the saddle with my George Longstaff (standard diam 7/5/7 
>>> with 8/5/8 downtube, and so vastly more flexible than your Hillborne) I 
>>> have no front derailleur chain rub.  In fact, I have never had front 
>>> derailleur chain rub from riding out of the saddle. If there's a problem 
>>> there, I'm quite sure it isn't frame flex that's the cause. 
>>>
>>> As for the frame's stiffness, I'm quite confident that it is at least as 
>>> stiff as a 60 cm Rambouillet or a 60 cm Saluki, both of which I formerly 
>>> owned and sold because I felt they were too stiff for me. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  -- 
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>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Mark Reimer]

What kind of crank is it? Some cranks with small BCD and large, stamped
rings can flex a lot.

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:58 AM, 'hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> If it isn't the frame than I suppose it must be the Sugino crank.
> Something's flexing.
>
> Matt
>
>
> On Friday, February 27, 2015 at 4:46:38 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>> On 02/27/2015 01:14 AM, 'hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
>> > "When your bike weighs 90 pounds, a 2nd top tube may actually be doing
>> > you some good!"
>> >
>> > I cannot agree and feel compelled to reply because I think others
>> > could be misled.  I'm no heavyweight (170 lbs.) and commute on a 2-TT
>> > 60cm Hillborne.  Granted I carry a commuters load in the rear but
>> > nothing close to a 90 lbs. bike.  When I stand to climb hills, which I
>> > do every day, I'll get a "bit" of chain rub on the front derailleur
>> > even when the adjustment is finely tuned; friction shifting of
>> > course.  I'm no expert, but I believe this would be caused by frame
>> > flex.  AND THAT"s with a 2nd top tube.  I'd hate to think what this
>> > particular frame would be like  without. So the ride is not as
>> > stiff as some might believe.
>> >
>>
>> Matt, I think you are wrong.  I weigh 50 lb more than you, and when I
>> climb out of the saddle with my George Longstaff (standard diam 7/5/7
>> with 8/5/8 downtube, and so vastly more flexible than your Hillborne) I
>> have no front derailleur chain rub.  In fact, I have never had front
>> derailleur chain rub from riding out of the saddle. If there's a problem
>> there, I'm quite sure it isn't frame flex that's the cause.
>>
>> As for the frame's stiffness, I'm quite confident that it is at least as
>> stiff as a 60 cm Rambouillet or a 60 cm Saluki, both of which I formerly
>> owned and sold because I felt they were too stiff for me.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

['hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch]

If it isn't the frame than I suppose it must be the Sugino crank.  
Something's flexing.

Matt

On Friday, February 27, 2015 at 4:46:38 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On 02/27/2015 01:14 AM, 'hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote: 
> > "When your bike weighs 90 pounds, a 2nd top tube may actually be doing 
> > you some good!" 
> > 
> > I cannot agree and feel compelled to reply because I think others 
> > could be misled.  I'm no heavyweight (170 lbs.) and commute on a 2-TT 
> > 60cm Hillborne.  Granted I carry a commuters load in the rear but 
> > nothing close to a 90 lbs. bike.  When I stand to climb hills, which I 
> > do every day, I'll get a "bit" of chain rub on the front derailleur 
> > even when the adjustment is finely tuned; friction shifting of 
> > course.  I'm no expert, but I believe this would be caused by frame 
> > flex.  AND THAT"s with a 2nd top tube.  I'd hate to think what this 
> > particular frame would be like  without. So the ride is not as 
> > stiff as some might believe. 
> > 
>
> Matt, I think you are wrong.  I weigh 50 lb more than you, and when I 
> climb out of the saddle with my George Longstaff (standard diam 7/5/7 
> with 8/5/8 downtube, and so vastly more flexible than your Hillborne) I 
> have no front derailleur chain rub.  In fact, I have never had front 
> derailleur chain rub from riding out of the saddle. If there's a problem 
> there, I'm quite sure it isn't frame flex that's the cause. 
>
> As for the frame's stiffness, I'm quite confident that it is at least as 
> stiff as a 60 cm Rambouillet or a 60 cm Saluki, both of which I formerly 
> owned and sold because I felt they were too stiff for me. 
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Mark Reimer]

Hah Marc, that gave me a laugh. Reminds me of last summer, I was riding my
Atlantis with a big ol basket down a smooth paved road, moderate pace. I
came up alongside a guy riding a brand new Look carbon bike. It was by all
means a thoroughbred race machine. We got to a pair of railway tracks at
the same time, but he dismounted, carried his bike over, remounted and
continued riding at maybe 20km/h. What is the point of owning a bike that
you're too scared to ride over railway tracks? (and these were recessed
tracks in the road. Similar to riding over a small crack in the pavement).

Anyway, I know it's petty and I know it doesn't help anything, but I still
feel a twinge of smug satisfaction passing roadies in my denim cutoffs,
flat pedals and basket. That is, unless it's ME out for a road ride in
'kit' and get passed. Then I'm thrown into a rage hah! C'est la vie

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Marc Irwin  wrote:

> This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with
> Bosco Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked
> why anybody would want a bike like that?  I said, " I can take this to the
> grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the
> Himalayas.  What can you do with that?" (pointing to his crabon crotch
> rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew
> of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start loosing
> it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs
> (diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun.  I
> might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.
>
> Marc
>
> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I
>>> can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the
>>> niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called.  I
>>> just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also
>>> accept the benefits of a fatter tire
>>>
>>
>> Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of one
>> of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate
>> pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and I'll
>> be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm,
>> other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock
>> hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found anything
>> else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys
>> with sublimated graphics.
>>
>> There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for
>> camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases
>> well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old
>> Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no
>> trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has
>> shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is
>> wrong and she needs a different one.
>>
>> --
>> -- Anne Paulson
>>
>> It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Patrick Moore]

Having tried all kinds of kickstands, I found the best one for intra-aisle
shopping is the dropout-mount stand. You can leave it down as you wheel the
bike along, even if the drivetrain is fixed. And IME such stands support
assymetrical loads better than at least the Pletscher and VO 2-leg stands.

My 2 current shopping bikes ('03 and Ram) don't have stands, so I carefully
lean them up against fragile displays.

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 7:56 AM, Doug Williams <
salguod3791willi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Anne,
>
>
>
> I do the same. A SaddleSack Large and a double kickstand makes it really
> easy. My bike is slimmer and easier to maneuver than a shopping cart.
>
>
>
> Yes, not having to carry and futz with a lock is a big bonus.
>
>
>
> Doug
>
>
>
> *From:* rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Anne Paulson
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 26, 2015 9:35 PM
> *To:* rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor
>
>
>
> I often stop by the grocery store on the way home from a ride. If I don't
> have a lock with me, I use the two wheeled grocery cart.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2015, at 6:57 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>
> On 02/26/2015 09:40 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> You must have walked in SPDs? And my Ram and '03 custom carry groceries
> just fine, while being fun to ride unladen. As for theft, I usually wheel
> the bike through the aisles in place of a shopping cart.
>
>
> I didn't say it couldn't be done, obviously it can be, but that's pretty
> much the interior dialog.  I have a bike I can ride in regular street
> clothes and shoes that I use for errands.  Lots of people bring bikes to
> the grocery store, but I have never yet even once in my entire life seen
> anyone bring one into the store.
>
>
>
>
>
> at least 3/4 of my riding is turning shopping and errand trips into
> cycling detours on such bikes. At 12 to 20 miles each, rt, it's worth my
> while to change into cycling kit -- such as it is. Certainly SPDs.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>
>
>
> It's a right pain walking around in a store shopping wearing cycling
> shoes.  Also, odds are good a bike you'd use on a "regular" ride couldn't
> carry groceries anyway.  On top of that, what are the chances the bike
> would be stolen?  Hardly worth taking the risk.  It's a lot more than just
> "too much trouble to get into the uniform."
>
>
>
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*
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

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*The Love that moves the Sun and all 

Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Patrick Moore]

If I have a bike with a Wald basket, it's such a beater that I can safely
park it unlocked outside. No, large saddlebags and, usually, panniers.

When my daughter was very small -- 2 1/2 to 4 or so -- I'd walk from my
house to the nearest Albertson's 1/4 mile away, Catie riding, first, a
pneumatic tired, freewheeling, parent-steerable Radio Flyer tricycle, then
her 12" wheel bicycle through the aisles while I carried a basket. No one
complained then or now. I get compliments on my Rivendells.

I do this regularly at 2 area Albertson's and a Sprouts. I suppose you have
to be a familiar shopper to get away with it.

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 7:46 AM, Jim Bronson  wrote:

> You use your bike as the shopping cart???  Hmm never thought of that.  I
> guess the floors are concrete, at least at my grocer they are.
>
> Wald baskets?
> On Feb 26, 2015 8:41 PM, "Patrick Moore"  wrote:
>
>> You must have walked in SPDs? And my Ram and '03 custom carry groceries
>> just fine, while being fun to ride unladen. As for theft, I usually wheel
>> the bike through the aisles in place of a shopping cart.
>>
>> at least 3/4 of my riding is turning shopping and errand trips into
>> cycling detours on such bikes. At 12 to 20 miles each, rt, it's worth my
>> while to change into cycling kit -- such as it is. Certainly SPDs.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Steve Palincsar 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> It's a right pain walking around in a store shopping wearing cycling
>>> shoes.  Also, odds are good a bike you'd use on a "regular" ride couldn't
>>> carry groceries anyway.  On top of that, what are the chances the bike
>>> would be stolen?  Hardly worth taking the risk.  It's a lot more than just
>>> "too much trouble to get into the uniform."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>> Other professional writing services.
>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>>
>> *
>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
>> circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
>> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>
>> *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle
>>
>> *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante
>>
>> --
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*
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

*The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante

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RE: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

That’s two Tapebubba “DISAPPROVES” in two months; I’m devastated.  ;-)

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Allingham II, Thomas J
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 10:08 AM
To: 'rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com'
Subject: RE: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

I know.  I literally never remember to line them up before I mount the tires, 
and then (especially with hard-to-mount tires), I lose my internal 
aesthetic/practical struggle with myself over whether to remove and remount.  
My excuse is I haven’t had a flat since 2009 (I know, I know), so I persuade 
myself it’s only an aesthetic issue.  And I already pay way too much attention 
to aesthetics anyway.

But, mea culpa.

From: 
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com<mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Goshen Peter
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 7:29 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

Bazinga!

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:25 PM, Bill Lindsay 
mailto:tapebu...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Tire labels not lined up with the valve stems!??!??

DISAPPROVE

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 4:20:14 PM UTC-8, Pudge wrote:
You mean like this?  
https://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/8566366471/in/set-72157624552118742



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RE: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

I know.  I literally never remember to line them up before I mount the tires, 
and then (especially with hard-to-mount tires), I lose my internal 
aesthetic/practical struggle with myself over whether to remove and remount.  
My excuse is I haven’t had a flat since 2009 (I know, I know), so I persuade 
myself it’s only an aesthetic issue.  And I already pay way too much attention 
to aesthetics anyway.

But, mea culpa.

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Goshen Peter
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 7:29 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

Bazinga!

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:25 PM, Bill Lindsay 
mailto:tapebu...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Tire labels not lined up with the valve stems!??!??

DISAPPROVE

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 4:20:14 PM UTC-8, Pudge wrote:
You mean like this?  
https://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/8566366471/in/set-72157624552118742



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RE: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Doug Williams]

I use my bike as a shopping cart all the time. Never had any business say 
anything negative at all.

 

Doug

 

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Bronson
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:46 AM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

 

You use your bike as the shopping cart???  Hmm never thought of that.  I guess 
the floors are concrete, at least at my grocer they are.  

Wald baskets?

On Feb 26, 2015 8:41 PM, "Patrick Moore"  wrote:

You must have walked in SPDs? And my Ram and '03 custom carry groceries just 
fine, while being fun to ride unladen. As for theft, I usually wheel the bike 
through the aisles in place of a shopping cart.

 

at least 3/4 of my riding is turning shopping and errand trips into cycling 
detours on such bikes. At 12 to 20 miles each, rt, it's worth my while to 
change into cycling kit -- such as it is. Certainly SPDs.

 

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

 

It's a right pain walking around in a store shopping wearing cycling shoes.  
Also, odds are good a bike you'd use on a "regular" ride couldn't carry 
groceries anyway.  On top of that, what are the chances the bike would be 
stolen?  Hardly worth taking the risk.  It's a lot more than just "too much 
trouble to get into the uniform."



 

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Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 

*

The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. Aristotle

The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. Dante  

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RE: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Doug Williams]

Anne,

 

I do the same. A SaddleSack Large and a double kickstand makes it really easy. 
My bike is slimmer and easier to maneuver than a shopping cart.

 

Yes, not having to carry and futz with a lock is a big bonus.

 

Doug

 

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Paulson
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 9:35 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

 

I often stop by the grocery store on the way home from a ride. If I don't have 
a lock with me, I use the two wheeled grocery cart.

Sent from my iPad


On Feb 26, 2015, at 6:57 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

On 02/26/2015 09:40 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:

You must have walked in SPDs? And my Ram and '03 custom carry groceries just 
fine, while being fun to ride unladen. As for theft, I usually wheel the bike 
through the aisles in place of a shopping cart.


I didn't say it couldn't be done, obviously it can be, but that's pretty much 
the interior dialog.  I have a bike I can ride in regular street clothes and 
shoes that I use for errands.  Lots of people bring bikes to the grocery store, 
but I have never yet even once in my entire life seen anyone bring one into the 
store.





 

at least 3/4 of my riding is turning shopping and errand trips into cycling 
detours on such bikes. At 12 to 20 miles each, rt, it's worth my while to 
change into cycling kit -- such as it is. Certainly SPDs.

 

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

 

It's a right pain walking around in a store shopping wearing cycling shoes.  
Also, odds are good a bike you'd use on a "regular" ride couldn't carry 
groceries anyway.  On top of that, what are the chances the bike would be 
stolen?  Hardly worth taking the risk.  It's a lot more than just "too much 
trouble to get into the uniform."

 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[James Warren]

If the store manager complains, I wonder if they could be convinced that the 
bike is less intrusive than the store's own wheeled carts. Less wide and tires 
that are probably a tiny bit less likely to mark the floor. (Those swiveling 
shopping cart wheels are less in control and sometimes scrape sideways.)

I love the bike as shopping cart idea, Patrick and Anne!


Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 27, 2015, at 6:46 AM, Jim Bronson  wrote:

> You use your bike as the shopping cart???  Hmm never thought of that.  I 
> guess the floors are concrete, at least at my grocer they are. 
> 
> Wald baskets?
> 
> On Feb 26, 2015 8:41 PM, "Patrick Moore"  wrote:
> You must have walked in SPDs? And my Ram and '03 custom carry groceries just 
> fine, while being fun to ride unladen. As for theft, I usually wheel the bike 
> through the aisles in place of a shopping cart.
> 
> at least 3/4 of my riding is turning shopping and errand trips into cycling 
> detours on such bikes. At 12 to 20 miles each, rt, it's worth my while to 
> change into cycling kit -- such as it is. Certainly SPDs.
> 
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>> 
> It's a right pain walking around in a store shopping wearing cycling shoes.  
> Also, odds are good a bike you'd use on a "regular" ride couldn't carry 
> groceries anyway.  On top of that, what are the chances the bike would be 
> stolen?  Hardly worth taking the risk.  It's a lot more than just "too much 
> trouble to get into the uniform."
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> 
> *
> The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
> circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
> individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu
> Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. Aristotle
> 
> The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. Dante  
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Jim Bronson]

You use your bike as the shopping cart???  Hmm never thought of that.  I
guess the floors are concrete, at least at my grocer they are.

Wald baskets?
On Feb 26, 2015 8:41 PM, "Patrick Moore"  wrote:

> You must have walked in SPDs? And my Ram and '03 custom carry groceries
> just fine, while being fun to ride unladen. As for theft, I usually wheel
> the bike through the aisles in place of a shopping cart.
>
> at least 3/4 of my riding is turning shopping and errand trips into
> cycling detours on such bikes. At 12 to 20 miles each, rt, it's worth my
> while to change into cycling kit -- such as it is. Certainly SPDs.
>
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>
>>
>> It's a right pain walking around in a store shopping wearing cycling
>> shoes.  Also, odds are good a bike you'd use on a "regular" ride couldn't
>> carry groceries anyway.  On top of that, what are the chances the bike
>> would be stolen?  Hardly worth taking the risk.  It's a lot more than just
>> "too much trouble to get into the uniform."
>>
>>
>>
> --
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>
> *
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
> circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle
>
> *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Jim Bronson]

Man if they were going to name a bike after me, they could have at least
made a tall enough frame.
On Feb 27, 2015 1:26 AM, "David Yu Greenblatt" <
david.yu.greenbl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That Steve Peat fellow knows how to have fun on a bike.
>
> s24o in Scotland:
> https://vimeo.com/67430580
>
> Going for a little spin with 3 of his pals on 650b bikes in France:
> https://vimeo.com/63027254
>
> David G in San Diego
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2015, at 2:55 PM, Mark Reimer  wrote:
>
> Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that...
>
> http://theradavist.com/2015/02/santa-cruz-stigmata-cross-video/
>
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 4:53 PM, ascpgh  wrote:
>
>> It's odd, no spandex hamsters riding now. I guess riding across the minus
>> whatever, snow and ice covered darkness on studded tires with fenders
>> generator hubs and lights isn't their magazine ad.
>>
>> Andy Cheatham
>> Pittsburgh
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-5, Marc Irwin wrote:
>>>
>>> This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with
>>> Bosco Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked
>>> why anybody would want a bike like that?  I said, " I can take this to the
>>> grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the
>>> Himalayas.  What can you do with that?" (pointing to his crabon crotch
>>> rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew
>>> of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start loosing
>>> it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs
>>> (diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun.  I
>>> might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:



 On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite 
 wrote:

> I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while
> I can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the
> niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called.  
> I
> just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also
> accept the benefits of a fatter tire
>

 Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of
 one of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate
 pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and I'll
 be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm,
 other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock
 hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found anything
 else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys
 with sublimated graphics.

 There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for
 camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases
 well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old
 Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no
 trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has
 shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is
 wrong and she needs a different one.

 --
 -- Anne Paulson

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

>>>  --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/26/2015 09:54 AM, Marc Irwin wrote:
This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with 
Bosco Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then 
asked why anybody would want a bike like that?  I said, " I can take 
this to the grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take 
a trip over the Himalayas.  What can you do with that?" (pointing to 
his crabon crotch rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I 
passed he and his crew of*spandex hamsters* after the second rest 
stop.  They tend to start loosing it at 30 miles.  One of these days 
I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs (diamond gusset), a nascar t 
shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun.  I might even roll a pack 
of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.


Really, do we have to say things like this?  If you don't like lycra 
don't wear it, but I think calling people "spandex hamsters" is way 
beyond the pale.


And as for Winstons... :-X


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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/27/2015 01:14 AM, 'hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
"When your bike weighs 90 pounds, a 2nd top tube may actually be doing 
you some good!"


I cannot agree and feel compelled to reply because I think others 
could be misled.  I'm no heavyweight (170 lbs.) and commute on a 2-TT 
60cm Hillborne.  Granted I carry a commuters load in the rear but 
nothing close to a 90 lbs. bike.  When I stand to climb hills, which I 
do every day, I'll get a "bit" of chain rub on the front derailleur 
even when the adjustment is finely tuned; friction shifting of 
course.  I'm no expert, but I believe this would be caused by frame 
flex.  AND THAT"s with a 2nd top tube.  I'd hate to think what this 
particular frame would be like  without. So the ride is not as 
stiff as some might believe.




Matt, I think you are wrong.  I weigh 50 lb more than you, and when I 
climb out of the saddle with my George Longstaff (standard diam 7/5/7 
with 8/5/8 downtube, and so vastly more flexible than your Hillborne) I 
have no front derailleur chain rub.  In fact, I have never had front 
derailleur chain rub from riding out of the saddle. If there's a problem 
there, I'm quite sure it isn't frame flex that's the cause.


As for the frame's stiffness, I'm quite confident that it is at least as 
stiff as a 60 cm Rambouillet or a 60 cm Saluki, both of which I formerly 
owned and sold because I felt they were too stiff for me.





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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:36:30 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>  On 02/26/2015 08:06 PM, Doug Williams wrote:
>  
>  Perfect Geir!
>
>  
>
> Just wear whatever works for the ride you will be doing. Exercise clothes 
> or racing kit are fine if that is what you are doing. Nothing wrong with 
> bike clothes for a long and/or hard ride. But bike shoes and jerseys in the 
> grocery store are just…well…whatever. Again, I maintain that MANY 
> bicyclists simply can’t imagine going on a “regular ride” in “regular 
> clothes”. They miss out on many good rides because they simply can’t ride 
> without their racing kit. In the time spent getting dressed, I could have 
> already been at the grocery store. The result is that the “racing kit 
> crowd” never ride on short errand rides, because it is just too much 
> trouble to get into their uniform.
>  
>
> It's a right pain walking around in a store shopping wearing cycling 
> shoes.  Also, odds are good a bike you'd use on a "regular" ride couldn't 
> carry groceries anyway.  On top of that, what are the chances the bike 
> would be stolen?  Hardly worth taking the risk.  It's a lot more than just 
> "too much trouble to get into the uniform."
>

Uniform schmooniform.  I wear my SPD shoes/sandals all summer long without 
any problems, in stores or out.  And my "only" bike is good for centuries 
or groceries.  Most days I wear "regular" clothes to the office.  Sometimes 
I wear wool. It's all good. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[David Yu Greenblatt]

That Steve Peat fellow knows how to have fun on a bike. 

s24o in Scotland: 
https://vimeo.com/67430580

Going for a little spin with 3 of his pals on 650b bikes in France:
https://vimeo.com/63027254

David G in San Diego 


> On Feb 26, 2015, at 2:55 PM, Mark Reimer  wrote:
> 
> Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that...
> 
> http://theradavist.com/2015/02/santa-cruz-stigmata-cross-video/
> 
>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 4:53 PM, ascpgh  wrote:
>> It's odd, no spandex hamsters riding now. I guess riding across the minus 
>> whatever, snow and ice covered darkness on studded tires with fenders 
>> generator hubs and lights isn't their magazine ad.
>> 
>> Andy Cheatham 
>> Pittsburgh
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-5, Marc Irwin wrote:
>>> This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with Bosco 
>>> Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked why 
>>> anybody would want a bike like that?  I said, " I can take this to the 
>>> grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the 
>>> Himalayas.  What can you do with that?" (pointing to his crabon crotch 
>>> rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew 
>>> of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start loosing 
>>> it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs 
>>> (diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun.  I 
>>> might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.
>>> 
>>> Marc
>>> 
> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite  
> wrote:
> I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I 
> can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the 
> niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called.  
> I just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also 
> accept the benefits of a fatter tire  
 
 Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of one 
 of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate 
 pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and 
 I'll be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 
 mm, other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock 
 hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found 
 anything else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie 
 jerseys with sublimated graphics.
 
 There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for 
 camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases 
 well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old 
 Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no 
 trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has 
 shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is 
 wrong and she needs a different one.
 
 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson
 
 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
>> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

['hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch]

"When your bike weighs 90 pounds, a 2nd top tube may actually be doing you 
some good!"

I cannot agree and feel compelled to reply because I think others could be 
misled.  I'm no heavyweight (170 lbs.) and commute on a 2-TT 60cm 
Hillborne.  Granted I carry a commuters load in the rear but nothing close 
to a 90 lbs. bike.  When I stand to climb hills, which I do every day, I'll 
get a "bit" of chain rub on the front derailleur even when the adjustment 
is finely tuned; friction shifting of course.  I'm no expert, but I believe 
this would be caused by frame flex.  AND THAT"s with a 2nd top tube.  I'd 
hate to think what this particular frame  would be like  without. So 
the ride is not as stiff as some might believe.  I figure the 2nd top tube 
only adds about 8 oz. to the overall weight of the bike and in return I get 
a properly designed frame, for my uses anyway, and a conversation piece 
that seems to draw attention.  Afterall, it's not like a person in the USA 
sees a double top tube bike everyday.  Prior to my purchase I never thought 
I'd own a 2-TT.  As a matter of fact, the first time I visited RIvendell I 
wouldn't even ride one.  But the second time around I bought one!  12,000 
miles later I've never regretted it once.

Matt


On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 12:49:45 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>>
>> When your bike weighs 90 pounds, a 2nd top tube may actually be doing 
>> you some good!   I'm happy to have a diagonal tube on a tandem, too.   
>> Jan notwithstanding, I had a French tandem once with twin external 
>> laterals.  They were decorative and made a nice place to cradle a water 
>> bottle, but provided no lateral stiffness whatsoever. 
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Anne Paulson]

I often stop by the grocery store on the way home from a ride. If I don't have 
a lock with me, I use the two wheeled grocery cart.

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 26, 2015, at 6:57 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> 
>> On 02/26/2015 09:40 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
>> You must have walked in SPDs? And my Ram and '03 custom carry groceries just 
>> fine, while being fun to ride unladen. As for theft, I usually wheel the 
>> bike through the aisles in place of a shopping cart.
> 
> I didn't say it couldn't be done, obviously it can be, but that's pretty much 
> the interior dialog.  I have a bike I can ride in regular street clothes and 
> shoes that I use for errands.  Lots of people bring bikes to the grocery 
> store, but I have never yet even once in my entire life seen anyone bring one 
> into the store.
> 
> 
>> 
>> at least 3/4 of my riding is turning shopping and errand trips into cycling 
>> detours on such bikes. At 12 to 20 miles each, rt, it's worth my while to 
>> change into cycling kit -- such as it is. Certainly SPDs.
>> 
>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>>> It's a right pain walking around in a store shopping wearing cycling shoes. 
>>>  Also, odds are good a bike you'd use on a "regular" ride couldn't carry 
>>> groceries anyway.  On top of that, what are the chances the bike would be 
>>> stolen?  Hardly worth taking the risk.  It's a lot more than just "too much 
>>> trouble to get into the uniform."
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[dougP]

No problem keeping the beer cool.  

dougP

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 8:03:24 PM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com 
wrote:
>
> That Atlantis looks haaawt with those Nanoraptors!
>
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 8:00 PM, Mark Reimer  > wrote:
>
>> Anton, I got you! I'm not from around those parts. I'm more than 
>> accustomed to riding in 'real' winter conditions...
>>
>> Today it was -30C. Hey, that's almost ten degrees warmer than last week, 
>> spring is on the way
>>
>> [image: Inline image 1]
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Anton Tutter > > wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry, Mark, we here in the northeast US call that a dusting.  I'm 
>>> afraid that doesn't compare at all to what we've been getting over here. 
>>> This is how cyclists were rolling in the town next to mine the past couple 
>>> weeks.  No spandex here.
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> Anton "not wearing spandex in this 101.7 inches of snowfall" Tutter in 
>>> Somerville, MA
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 5:55:23 PM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:

 Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that...

 http://theradavist.com/2015/02/santa-cruz-stigmata-cross-video/

 On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 4:53 PM, ascpgh  wrote:

> It's odd, no spandex hamsters riding now. I guess riding across the 
> minus whatever, snow and ice covered darkness on studded tires with 
> fenders 
> generator hubs and lights isn't their magazine ad.
>
> Andy Cheatham 
> Pittsburgh
>
>
> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-5, Marc Irwin wrote:
>>
>> This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with 
>> Bosco Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then 
>> asked 
>> why anybody would want a bike like that?  I said, " I can take this to 
>> the 
>> grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over 
>> the 
>> Himalayas.  What can you do with that?" (pointing to his crabon crotch 
>> rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his 
>> crew 
>> of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start 
>> loosing 
>> it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair of 
>> cutoffs 
>> (diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun. 
>>  I 
>> might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite <
>>> addison...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, 
 while I can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living 
 in 
 the niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are 
 called.  I just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires 
 that 
 don't also accept the benefits of a fatter tire  

>>>
>>> Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of 
>>> one of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a 
>>> moderate 
>>> pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and 
>>> I'll 
>>> be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm, 
>>> other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock 
>>> hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found 
>>> anything 
>>> else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie 
>>> jerseys 
>>> with sublimated graphics.
>>>
>>> There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for 
>>> camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases 
>>> well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old 
>>> Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no 
>>> trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has 
>>> shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is 
>>> wrong and she needs a different one.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> -- Anne Paulson
>>>
>>> It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
>>>  
>>  -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/26/2015 09:40 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
You must have walked in SPDs? And my Ram and '03 custom carry 
groceries just fine, while being fun to ride unladen. As for theft, I 
usually wheel the bike through the aisles in place of a shopping cart.


I didn't say it couldn't be done, obviously it can be, but that's pretty 
much the interior dialog.  I have a bike I can ride in regular street 
clothes and shoes that I use for errands.  Lots of people bring bikes to 
the grocery store, but I have never yet even once in my entire life seen 
anyone bring one into the store.





at least 3/4 of my riding is turning shopping and errand trips into 
cycling detours on such bikes. At 12 to 20 miles each, rt, it's worth 
my while to change into cycling kit -- such as it is. Certainly SPDs.


On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Steve Palincsar > wrote:





It's a right pain walking around in a store shopping wearing
cycling shoes.  Also, odds are good a bike you'd use on a
"regular" ride couldn't carry groceries anyway.  On top of that,
what are the chances the bike would be stolen?  Hardly worth
taking the risk.  It's a lot more than just "too much trouble to
get into the uniform."



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Patrick Moore]

You must have walked in SPDs? And my Ram and '03 custom carry groceries
just fine, while being fun to ride unladen. As for theft, I usually wheel
the bike through the aisles in place of a shopping cart.

at least 3/4 of my riding is turning shopping and errand trips into cycling
detours on such bikes. At 12 to 20 miles each, rt, it's worth my while to
change into cycling kit -- such as it is. Certainly SPDs.

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

>
> It's a right pain walking around in a store shopping wearing cycling
> shoes.  Also, odds are good a bike you'd use on a "regular" ride couldn't
> carry groceries anyway.  On top of that, what are the chances the bike
> would be stolen?  Hardly worth taking the risk.  It's a lot more than just
> "too much trouble to get into the uniform."
>
>
>
-- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Anton Tutter]

Sorry, Mark, we here in the northeast US call that a dusting.  I'm afraid 
that doesn't compare at all to what we've been getting over here. This is 
how cyclists were rolling in the town next to mine the past couple weeks. 
 No spandex here.






Anton "not wearing spandex in this 101.7 inches of snowfall" Tutter in 
Somerville, MA








On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 5:55:23 PM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that...
>
> http://theradavist.com/2015/02/santa-cruz-stigmata-cross-video/
>
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 4:53 PM, ascpgh > 
> wrote:
>
>> It's odd, no spandex hamsters riding now. I guess riding across the minus 
>> whatever, snow and ice covered darkness on studded tires with fenders 
>> generator hubs and lights isn't their magazine ad.
>>
>> Andy Cheatham 
>> Pittsburgh
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-5, Marc Irwin wrote:
>>>
>>> This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with 
>>> Bosco Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked 
>>> why anybody would want a bike like that?  I said, " I can take this to the 
>>> grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the 
>>> Himalayas.  What can you do with that?" (pointing to his crabon crotch 
>>> rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew 
>>> of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start loosing 
>>> it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs 
>>> (diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun.  I 
>>> might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:



 On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite  
 wrote:

> I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while 
> I can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the 
> niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called.  
> I 
> just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also 
> accept the benefits of a fatter tire  
>

 Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of 
 one of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a 
 moderate 
 pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and 
 I'll 
 be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm, 
 other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock 
 hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found 
 anything 
 else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys 
 with sublimated graphics.

 There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for 
 camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases 
 well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old 
 Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no 
 trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has 
 shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is 
 wrong and she needs a different one.

 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
  
>>>  -- 
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>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/26/2015 08:06 PM, Doug Williams wrote:


Perfect Geir!

Just wear whatever works for the ride you will be doing. Exercise 
clothes or racing kit are fine if that is what you are doing. Nothing 
wrong with bike clothes for a long and/or hard ride. But bike shoes 
and jerseys in the grocery store are just…well…whatever. Again, I 
maintain that MANY bicyclists simply can’t imagine going on a “regular 
ride” in “regular clothes”. They miss out on many good rides because 
they simply can’t ride without their racing kit. In the time spent 
getting dressed, I could have already been at the grocery store. The 
result is that the “racing kit crowd” never ride on short errand 
rides, because it is just too much trouble to get into their uniform.




It's a right pain walking around in a store shopping wearing cycling 
shoes.  Also, odds are good a bike you'd use on a "regular" ride 
couldn't carry groceries anyway.  On top of that, what are the chances 
the bike would be stolen?  Hardly worth taking the risk. It's a lot more 
than just "too much trouble to get into the uniform."



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[cyclotourist]

100!

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 5:06 PM, Doug Williams <
salguod3791willi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Perfect Geir!
>
>
>
> Just wear whatever works for the ride you will be doing. Exercise clothes
> or racing kit are fine if that is what you are doing. Nothing wrong with
> bike clothes for a long and/or hard ride. But bike shoes and jerseys in the
> grocery store are just...well...whatever. Again, I maintain that MANY
> bicyclists simply can't imagine going on a "regular ride" in "regular
> clothes". They miss out on many good rides because they simply can't ride
> without their racing kit. In the time spent getting dressed, I could have
> already been at the grocery store. The result is that the "racing kit
> crowd" never ride on short errand rides, because it is just too much
> trouble to get into their uniform.
>
>
>
>
>
> Doug
>
>
>
> *From:* rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Geir Bentzen
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 26, 2015 2:24 PM
> *To:* rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor
>
>
>
> I believe I have read/skimmed all the comments by now and as a European
> who has emigrated to the U.S. what strikes me as odd is the feeling I get
> that riding a bike is something special. Something you need a club for,
> extra things to buy, something a bit exotic. I believe the core of what
> Grant says is that it is not something special. It as normal as driving or
> walking down the street or taking the bus, and in fact those things can
> often be combined. My impression is that he promotes using the bike as your
> get around daily tool as much as you can, and that may mean to wear
> whatever suits the combination of your tasks, not only your bike riding.
> This is how I experienced life in Europe. But, if you go out for a ride
> that has no other tasks to it than just riding then I believe you should
> feel free to dress for the physical exercise involved. In my own case that
> means bike shorts made of lycra and other more or less bike specific attire
> as needed for the weather. I just don't see the conflict here. I have
> several bikes, but I notice that the one I grab all the time is my
> Hunqapillar, even though I own an excellent German city bike for going to
> the grocery store. So the Hunq does it all, but I may not wear the same
> clothes all the time. When younger I would often wear running shoes while
> walking around town in jeans, but I would never go for a long run wearing
> those jeans even though I still wore the same shoes. Why not adopt the same
> practical and non-ideological attitude?
>
> On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 3:08:44 PM UTC-6, Jon in the foothills of
> Central Colorado wrote:
>
> In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag
>
> PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER
>
> LETTER 'UNRACING? UNCOOL'
>
> Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,
>
> and diets have become the norm and
>
> normal, and are so pervasive that many
>
> adult cyclists, maybe even some you
>
> know, accept the racing standards as
>
> the only legitimate way to be a serious
>
> adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the
>
> book *Just Ride *-- and what we do here
>
> at Rivendell Bicycle Works -- is offer
>
> an alternative, a model to other adult
>
> cyclists that there is another way. This
>
> letter is not an ad for either. I'm simply
>
> saying where I come from and what I
>
> do.
>
> We are the mice trying to squeak
>
> above the roar at the base of the
>
> waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,
>
> but I try hard to not offend.
>
> Inevitably, a declarative position on
>
> any matter is bound to raise a few
>
> hackles with those who have a different
>
> position, but it still hurts to be judged
>
> by a stranger who would probably like
>
> me, and whom I'd surely like, in person.
>
> A good number of our customers are
>
> middle-aged and older folks trying to
>
> fit in some activity as they age. They
>
> often have the means, and they're
>
> influenced by what they read and see
>
> that promotes racers as a good model --
>
> and that's something I don't agree with.
>
> They shop as innocents and come
>
> out of it dressed like racers and riding
>
> bikes that are not only inappropriate
>
> for the kind of riding they do, but are,
>
> on top of that and more egregiously, not
>
> comfortable. We undo that. You may
>
> see ego or evil behind it, but I don't
>
> feel either of those. I see racing and
>
>

RE: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Doug Williams]

Perfect Geir!

 

Just wear whatever works for the ride you will be doing. Exercise clothes or 
racing kit are fine if that is what you are doing. Nothing wrong with bike 
clothes for a long and/or hard ride. But bike shoes and jerseys in the grocery 
store are just…well…whatever. Again, I maintain that MANY bicyclists simply 
can’t imagine going on a “regular ride” in “regular clothes”. They miss out on 
many good rides because they simply can’t ride without their racing kit. In the 
time spent getting dressed, I could have already been at the grocery store. The 
result is that the “racing kit crowd” never ride on short errand rides, because 
it is just too much trouble to get into their uniform.

 

 

Doug

 

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Geir Bentzen
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 2:24 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

 

I believe I have read/skimmed all the comments by now and as a European who has 
emigrated to the U.S. what strikes me as odd is the feeling I get that riding a 
bike is something special. Something you need a club for, extra things to buy, 
something a bit exotic. I believe the core of what Grant says is that it is not 
something special. It as normal as driving or walking down the street or taking 
the bus, and in fact those things can often be combined. My impression is that 
he promotes using the bike as your get around daily tool as much as you can, 
and that may mean to wear whatever suits the combination of your tasks, not 
only your bike riding. This is how I experienced life in Europe. But, if you go 
out for a ride that has no other tasks to it than just riding then I believe 
you should feel free to dress for the physical exercise involved. In my own 
case that means bike shorts made of lycra and other more or less bike specific 
attire as needed for the weather. I just don't see the conflict here. I have 
several bikes, but I notice that the one I grab all the time is my Hunqapillar, 
even though I own an excellent German city bike for going to the grocery store. 
So the Hunq does it all, but I may not wear the same clothes all the time. When 
younger I would often wear running shoes while walking around town in jeans, 
but I would never go for a long run wearing those jeans even though I still 
wore the same shoes. Why not adopt the same practical and non-ideological 
attitude?

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 3:08:44 PM UTC-6, Jon in the foothills of 
Central Colorado wrote:

In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag

PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER

LETTER ‘UNRACING? UNCOOL’

Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,

and diets have become the norm and

normal, and are so pervasive that many

adult cyclists, maybe even some you

know, accept the racing standards as

the only legitimate way to be a serious

adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the

book Just Ride — and what we do here

at Rivendell Bicycle Works — is offer

an alternative, a model to other adult

cyclists that there is another way. This

letter is not an ad for either. I’m simply

saying where I come from and what I

do.

We are the mice trying to squeak

above the roar at the base of the

waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,

but I try hard to not offend.

Inevitably, a declarative position on

any matter is bound to raise a few

hackles with those who have a different

position, but it still hurts to be judged

by a stranger who would probably like

me, and whom I’d surely like, in person.

A good number of our customers are

middle-aged and older folks trying to

fit in some activity as they age. They

often have the means, and they’re

influenced by what they read and see

that promotes racers as a good model —

and that’s something I don’t agree with.

They shop as innocents and come

out of it dressed like racers and riding

bikes that are not only inappropriate

for the kind of riding they do, but are,

on top of that and more egregiously, not

comfortable. We undo that. You may

see ego or evil behind it, but I don’t

feel either of those. I see racing and

racers as fringe and am simply trying

to legitimize an alternative point of

view, one that I feel strongly about. I’m

trying — certainly not singlehandedly —

to make people feel good about riding

without dressing in pro-team gear and

copying so many other affectations of

the racer, and that is what Unracing and

Just Ride and Rivendell Bicycle Works is

all about. We’re nobody’s enemy. Some

of my best friends pedal cliplessly and

in spandex. It’s cool.

Grant Petersen

Walnut Creek, California

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

['Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch]

How about the Ibex wool jersey, Patrick? They are very, very light, ss and rear 
pockets. I've yet to have a knit jersey that I could wear two rides in a row. I 
sweat like crazy and my wool stuff doesn't smell.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Mike Schiller]

now that looks like a hella lota fun.  Although I'd probably get the new 
Salsa Warbird... carbon bike that fits 45mm tires.  Seems like most of  my 
fun rides these days are like that ( a bit slower and drier though) and 
there should be beer at the  end too!

~mike
Carlsbad Ca.

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 2:55:23 PM UTC-8, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that...
>
> http://theradavist.com/2015/02/santa-cruz-stigmata-cross-video/
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Goshen Peter]

Bazinga!

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:25 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> Tire labels not lined up with the valve stems!??!??
>
> DISAPPROVE
>
> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 4:20:14 PM UTC-8, Pudge wrote:
>>
>>  You mean like this?  https://www.flickr.com/photos/
>> 37542512@N04/8566366471/in/set-72157624552118742
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Bill Lindsay]

Tire labels not lined up with the valve stems!??!??

DISAPPROVE

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 4:20:14 PM UTC-8, Pudge wrote:
>
>  You mean like this?  
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/8566366471/in/set-72157624552118742
>
>  
>
>  
>
>
>

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RE: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

You mean like this?  
https://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/8566366471/in/set-72157624552118742


From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Goshen Peter
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 6:11 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor


Bill, I always thought it would have been great to get my silca painted to 
match the bombadil so from a feet away TRIPLE TUBED!
On Feb 26, 2015 6:05 PM, "Hugh Smitham" 
mailto:hughsmit...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Well that should sell a bunch of stretchy light weight bikey stuff! I had to 
stop half way through the video to catch my breath ;) Fun to watch.
On Feb 26, 2015 2:55 PM, "Mark Reimer" 
mailto:marknrei...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that...

http://theradavist.com/2015/02/santa-cruz-stigmata-cross-video/

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 4:53 PM, ascpgh 
mailto:asc@gmail.com>> wrote:
It's odd, no spandex hamsters riding now. I guess riding across the minus 
whatever, snow and ice covered darkness on studded tires with fenders generator 
hubs and lights isn't their magazine ad.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh


On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-5, Marc Irwin wrote:
This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with Bosco 
Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked why anybody 
would want a bike like that?  I said, " I can take this to the grocery store, 
ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the Himalayas.  What can 
you do with that?" (pointing to his crabon crotch rocket).  He just shook his 
head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew of spandex hamsters after the 
second rest stop.  They tend to start loosing it at 30 miles.  One of these 
days I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs (diamond gusset), a nascar t 
shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun.  I might even roll a pack of 
Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.

Marc

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:


On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite  wrote:
I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I can 
certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the niche.  Just 
like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called.  I just don't see a 
lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also accept the benefits of a 
fatter tire

Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of one of my 
(touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate pace, and I 
see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and I'll be riding it. 
There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm, other than my Roadeo. 
Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock hard.  Everyone will have 
lycra shorts including me (haven't found anything else that works for me) and 
everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys with sublimated graphics.

There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for camaraderie. 
Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases well over 50. But 
there is one young woman who shows up on an old Stumpjumper with flat bars, 
wearing street clothes. Although she has no trouble keeping up, and she has a 
fine bike, almost every time she has shown up at a ride I'm on someone will 
explain to her that her bike is wrong and she needs a different one.

--
-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Mark Reimer]

Oh, I know they're babies. That video didn't fool me. 



> On Feb 26, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:
> 
> That snow looks to be about 28˚F or warmer. That's only minus whatever in C. 
> Grin.
> 
> With abandon,
> Patrick
> 
>> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 3:55:23 PM UTC-7, Mark Reimer wrote:
>> Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that...
>> 
>> http://theradavist.com/2015/02/santa-cruz-stigmata-cross-video/
>> 
>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 4:53 PM, ascpgh  wrote:
>>> It's odd, no spandex hamsters riding now. I guess riding across the minus 
>>> whatever, snow and ice covered darkness on studded tires with fenders 
>>> generator hubs and lights isn't their magazine ad.
>>> 
>>> Andy Cheatham 
>>> Pittsburgh
>>> 
>>> 
 On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-5, Marc Irwin wrote:
 This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with 
 Bosco Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked 
 why anybody would want a bike like that?  I said, " I can take this to the 
 grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the 
 Himalayas.  What can you do with that?" (pointing to his crabon crotch 
 rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew 
 of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start 
 loosing it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair 
 of cutoffs (diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just 
 for fun.  I might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good 
 measure.
 
 Marc
 
> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite  
>> wrote:
>> I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I 
>> can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the 
>> niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called. 
>>  I just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't 
>> also accept the benefits of a fatter tire  
> 
> Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of one 
> of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate 
> pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and 
> I'll be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 
> mm, other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up 
> rock hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found 
> anything else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie 
> jerseys with sublimated graphics.
> 
> There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for 
> camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases 
> well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old 
> Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no 
> trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has 
> shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is 
> wrong and she needs a different one.
> 
> -- 
> -- Anne Paulson
> 
> It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
>>> 
>>> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Deacon Patrick]

That snow looks to be about 28˚F or warmer. That's only minus whatever in 
C. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 3:55:23 PM UTC-7, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that...
>
> http://theradavist.com/2015/02/santa-cruz-stigmata-cross-video/
>
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 4:53 PM, ascpgh > 
> wrote:
>
>> It's odd, no spandex hamsters riding now. I guess riding across the minus 
>> whatever, snow and ice covered darkness on studded tires with fenders 
>> generator hubs and lights isn't their magazine ad.
>>
>> Andy Cheatham 
>> Pittsburgh
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-5, Marc Irwin wrote:
>>>
>>> This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with 
>>> Bosco Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked 
>>> why anybody would want a bike like that?  I said, " I can take this to the 
>>> grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the 
>>> Himalayas.  What can you do with that?" (pointing to his crabon crotch 
>>> rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew 
>>> of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start loosing 
>>> it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs 
>>> (diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun.  I 
>>> might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:



 On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite  
 wrote:

> I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while 
> I can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the 
> niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called.  
> I 
> just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also 
> accept the benefits of a fatter tire  
>

 Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of 
 one of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a 
 moderate 
 pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and 
 I'll 
 be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm, 
 other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock 
 hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found 
 anything 
 else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys 
 with sublimated graphics.

 There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for 
 camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases 
 well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old 
 Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no 
 trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has 
 shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is 
 wrong and she needs a different one.

 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
  
>>>  -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Goshen Peter]

Bill, I always thought it would have been great to get my silca painted to
match the bombadil so from a feet away TRIPLE TUBED!
On Feb 26, 2015 6:05 PM, "Hugh Smitham"  wrote:

> Well that should sell a bunch of stretchy light weight bikey stuff! I had
> to stop half way through the video to catch my breath ;) Fun to watch.
>  On Feb 26, 2015 2:55 PM, "Mark Reimer"  wrote:
>
>> Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that...
>>
>> http://theradavist.com/2015/02/santa-cruz-stigmata-cross-video/
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 4:53 PM, ascpgh  wrote:
>>
>>> It's odd, no spandex hamsters riding now. I guess riding across the
>>> minus whatever, snow and ice covered darkness on studded tires with fenders
>>> generator hubs and lights isn't their magazine ad.
>>>
>>> Andy Cheatham
>>> Pittsburgh
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-5, Marc Irwin wrote:

 This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with
 Bosco Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked
 why anybody would want a bike like that?  I said, " I can take this to the
 grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the
 Himalayas.  What can you do with that?" (pointing to his crabon crotch
 rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew
 of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start loosing
 it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs
 (diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun.  I
 might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.

 Marc

 On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson
 wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite  > wrote:
>
>> I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore,
>> while I can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in
>> the niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are
>> called.  I just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that
>> don't also accept the benefits of a fatter tire
>>
>
> Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of
> one of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a 
> moderate
> pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and 
> I'll
> be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm,
> other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock
> hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found 
> anything
> else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys
> with sublimated graphics.
>
> There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for
> camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases
> well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old
> Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no
> trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has
> shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is
> wrong and she needs a different one.
>
> --
> -- Anne Paulson
>
> It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
>
  --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
>>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>
>>  --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Hugh Smitham]

Well that should sell a bunch of stretchy light weight bikey stuff! I had
to stop half way through the video to catch my breath ;) Fun to watch.
 On Feb 26, 2015 2:55 PM, "Mark Reimer"  wrote:

> Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that...
>
> http://theradavist.com/2015/02/santa-cruz-stigmata-cross-video/
>
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 4:53 PM, ascpgh  wrote:
>
>> It's odd, no spandex hamsters riding now. I guess riding across the minus
>> whatever, snow and ice covered darkness on studded tires with fenders
>> generator hubs and lights isn't their magazine ad.
>>
>> Andy Cheatham
>> Pittsburgh
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-5, Marc Irwin wrote:
>>>
>>> This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with
>>> Bosco Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked
>>> why anybody would want a bike like that?  I said, " I can take this to the
>>> grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the
>>> Himalayas.  What can you do with that?" (pointing to his crabon crotch
>>> rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew
>>> of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start loosing
>>> it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs
>>> (diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun.  I
>>> might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:



 On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite 
 wrote:

> I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while
> I can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the
> niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called.  
> I
> just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also
> accept the benefits of a fatter tire
>

 Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of
 one of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate
 pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and I'll
 be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm,
 other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock
 hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found anything
 else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys
 with sublimated graphics.

 There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for
 camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases
 well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old
 Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no
 trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has
 shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is
 wrong and she needs a different one.

 --
 -- Anne Paulson

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

>>>  --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/F-3pQcXcdIw/unsubscribe
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Mark Reimer]

Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that...

http://theradavist.com/2015/02/santa-cruz-stigmata-cross-video/

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 4:53 PM, ascpgh  wrote:

> It's odd, no spandex hamsters riding now. I guess riding across the minus
> whatever, snow and ice covered darkness on studded tires with fenders
> generator hubs and lights isn't their magazine ad.
>
> Andy Cheatham
> Pittsburgh
>
>
> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-5, Marc Irwin wrote:
>>
>> This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with
>> Bosco Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked
>> why anybody would want a bike like that?  I said, " I can take this to the
>> grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the
>> Himalayas.  What can you do with that?" (pointing to his crabon crotch
>> rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew
>> of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start loosing
>> it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs
>> (diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun.  I
>> might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while
 I can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the
 niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called.  I
 just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also
 accept the benefits of a fatter tire

>>>
>>> Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of one
>>> of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate
>>> pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and I'll
>>> be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm,
>>> other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock
>>> hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found anything
>>> else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys
>>> with sublimated graphics.
>>>
>>> There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for
>>> camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases
>>> well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old
>>> Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no
>>> trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has
>>> shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is
>>> wrong and she needs a different one.
>>>
>>> --
>>> -- Anne Paulson
>>>
>>> It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
>>>
>>  --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[ascpgh]

It's odd, no spandex hamsters riding now. I guess riding across the minus 
whatever, snow and ice covered darkness on studded tires with fenders 
generator hubs and lights isn't their magazine ad.

Andy Cheatham 
Pittsburgh

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-5, Marc Irwin wrote:
>
> This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with 
> Bosco Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked 
> why anybody would want a bike like that?  I said, " I can take this to the 
> grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the 
> Himalayas.  What can you do with that?" (pointing to his crabon crotch 
> rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew 
> of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start loosing 
> it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs 
> (diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun.  I 
> might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.
>
> Marc
>
> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I 
>>> can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the 
>>> niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called.  I 
>>> just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also 
>>> accept the benefits of a fatter tire  
>>>
>>
>> Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of one 
>> of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate 
>> pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and I'll 
>> be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm, 
>> other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock 
>> hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found anything 
>> else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys 
>> with sublimated graphics.
>>
>> There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for 
>> camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases 
>> well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old 
>> Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no 
>> trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has 
>> shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is 
>> wrong and she needs a different one.
>>
>> -- 
>> -- Anne Paulson
>>
>> It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
>>  
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Patrick Moore]

The best comment on the subject yet 

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Geir Bentzen  wrote:

> I believe I have read/skimmed all the comments by now and as a European
> who has emigrated to the U.S. what strikes me as odd is the feeling I get
> that riding a bike is something special. Something you need a club for,
> extra things to buy, something a bit exotic. I believe the core of what
> Grant says is that it is not something special. It as normal as driving or
> walking down the street or taking the bus, and in fact those things can
> often be combined. My impression is that he promotes using the bike as your
> get around daily tool as much as you can, and that may mean to wear
> whatever suits the combination of your tasks, not only your bike riding.
> This is how I experienced life in Europe. But, if you go out for a ride
> that has no other tasks to it than just riding then I believe you should
> feel free to dress for the physical exercise involved. In my own case that
> means bike shorts made of lycra and other more or less bike specific attire
> as needed for the weather. I just don't see the conflict here. I have
> several bikes, but I notice that the one I grab all the time is my
> Hunqapillar, even though I own an excellent German city bike for going to
> the grocery store. So the Hunq does it all, but I may not wear the same
> clothes all the time. When younger I would often wear running shoes while
> walking around town in jeans, but I would never go for a long run wearing
> those jeans even though I still wore the same shoes. Why not adopt the same
> practical and non-ideological attitude?
>
> On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 3:08:44 PM UTC-6, Jon in the foothills of
> Central Colorado wrote:
>>
>> In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag
>>
>> PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER
>>
>> LETTER ‘UNRACING? UNCOOL’
>>
>> Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,
>>
>> and diets have become the norm and
>>
>> normal, and are so pervasive that many
>>
>> adult cyclists, maybe even some you
>>
>> know, accept the racing standards as
>>
>> the only legitimate way to be a serious
>>
>> adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the
>>
>> book *Just Ride *— and what we do here
>>
>> at Rivendell Bicycle Works — is offer
>>
>> an alternative, a model to other adult
>>
>> cyclists that there is another way. This
>>
>> letter is not an ad for either. I’m simply
>>
>> saying where I come from and what I
>>
>> do.
>>
>> We are the mice trying to squeak
>>
>> above the roar at the base of the
>>
>> waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,
>>
>> but I try hard to not offend.
>>
>> Inevitably, a declarative position on
>>
>> any matter is bound to raise a few
>>
>> hackles with those who have a different
>>
>> position, but it still hurts to be judged
>>
>> by a stranger who would probably like
>>
>> me, and whom I’d surely like, in person.
>>
>> A good number of our customers are
>>
>> middle-aged and older folks trying to
>>
>> fit in some activity as they age. They
>>
>> often have the means, and they’re
>>
>> influenced by what they read and see
>>
>> that promotes racers as a good model —
>>
>> and that’s something I don’t agree with.
>>
>> They shop as innocents and come
>>
>> out of it dressed like racers and riding
>>
>> bikes that are not only inappropriate
>>
>> for the kind of riding they do, but are,
>>
>> on top of that and more egregiously, not
>>
>> comfortable. We undo that. You may
>>
>> see ego or evil behind it, but I don’t
>>
>> feel either of those. I see racing and
>>
>> racers as fringe and am simply trying
>>
>> to legitimize an alternative point of
>>
>> view, one that I feel strongly about. I’m
>>
>> trying — certainly not singlehandedly —
>>
>> to make people feel good about riding
>>
>> without dressing in pro-team gear and
>>
>> copying so many other affectations of
>>
>> the racer, and that is what Unracing and
>>
>> *Just Ride *and Rivendell Bicycle Works is
>>
>> all about. We’re nobody’s enemy. Some
>>
>> of my best friends pedal cliplessly and
>>
>> in spandex. It’s cool.
>>
>> Grant Petersen
>>
>> Walnut Creek, California
>>
>  --
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-- 
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By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
Other professional writing services.
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*
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the rim of 

[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Geir Bentzen]

I believe I have read/skimmed all the comments by now and as a European who 
has emigrated to the U.S. what strikes me as odd is the feeling I get that 
riding a bike is something special. Something you need a club for, extra 
things to buy, something a bit exotic. I believe the core of what Grant 
says is that it is not something special. It as normal as driving or 
walking down the street or taking the bus, and in fact those things can 
often be combined. My impression is that he promotes using the bike as your 
get around daily tool as much as you can, and that may mean to wear 
whatever suits the combination of your tasks, not only your bike riding. 
This is how I experienced life in Europe. But, if you go out for a ride 
that has no other tasks to it than just riding then I believe you should 
feel free to dress for the physical exercise involved. In my own case that 
means bike shorts made of lycra and other more or less bike specific attire 
as needed for the weather. I just don't see the conflict here. I have 
several bikes, but I notice that the one I grab all the time is my 
Hunqapillar, even though I own an excellent German city bike for going to 
the grocery store. So the Hunq does it all, but I may not wear the same 
clothes all the time. When younger I would often wear running shoes while 
walking around town in jeans, but I would never go for a long run wearing 
those jeans even though I still wore the same shoes. Why not adopt the same 
practical and non-ideological attitude?

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 3:08:44 PM UTC-6, Jon in the foothills of 
Central Colorado wrote:
>
> In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag
>
> PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER
>
> LETTER ‘UNRACING? UNCOOL’
>
> Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,
>
> and diets have become the norm and
>
> normal, and are so pervasive that many
>
> adult cyclists, maybe even some you
>
> know, accept the racing standards as
>
> the only legitimate way to be a serious
>
> adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the
>
> book *Just Ride *— and what we do here
>
> at Rivendell Bicycle Works — is offer
>
> an alternative, a model to other adult
>
> cyclists that there is another way. This
>
> letter is not an ad for either. I’m simply
>
> saying where I come from and what I
>
> do.
>
> We are the mice trying to squeak
>
> above the roar at the base of the
>
> waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,
>
> but I try hard to not offend.
>
> Inevitably, a declarative position on
>
> any matter is bound to raise a few
>
> hackles with those who have a different
>
> position, but it still hurts to be judged
>
> by a stranger who would probably like
>
> me, and whom I’d surely like, in person.
>
> A good number of our customers are
>
> middle-aged and older folks trying to
>
> fit in some activity as they age. They
>
> often have the means, and they’re
>
> influenced by what they read and see
>
> that promotes racers as a good model —
>
> and that’s something I don’t agree with.
>
> They shop as innocents and come
>
> out of it dressed like racers and riding
>
> bikes that are not only inappropriate
>
> for the kind of riding they do, but are,
>
> on top of that and more egregiously, not
>
> comfortable. We undo that. You may
>
> see ego or evil behind it, but I don’t
>
> feel either of those. I see racing and
>
> racers as fringe and am simply trying
>
> to legitimize an alternative point of
>
> view, one that I feel strongly about. I’m
>
> trying — certainly not singlehandedly —
>
> to make people feel good about riding
>
> without dressing in pro-team gear and
>
> copying so many other affectations of
>
> the racer, and that is what Unracing and
>
> *Just Ride *and Rivendell Bicycle Works is
>
> all about. We’re nobody’s enemy. Some
>
> of my best friends pedal cliplessly and
>
> in spandex. It’s cool.
>
> Grant Petersen
>
> Walnut Creek, California
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Bill Lindsay]

the second top tube is also a terriffic handle for portaging it up the 
stairs to BART

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 12:49:45 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On 02/26/2015 03:10 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote: 
> > Brewster 
> > 
> > My Bombadil is quite stiff.  Bikes that "plane" are really flexible. 
> >  My Bombadil does not plane.  My Rawland Stag with 7/4/7 standard 
> > diameter top tube and downtube does plane.  My Bombadil is very stout. 
> >  I use it for camping and trail riding.  At times, I am carrying most 
> > of the gear for a family of four.  When my bike weighs over 90lbs, the 
> > extra few ounces of the second top tube does not bother me. 
>
> When your bike weighs 90 pounds, a 2nd top tube may actually be doing 
> you some good!   I'm happy to have a diagonal tube on a tandem, too.   
> Jan notwithstanding, I had a French tandem once with twin external 
> laterals.  They were decorative and made a nice place to cradle a water 
> bottle, but provided no lateral stiffness whatsoever. 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/26/2015 03:10 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:

Brewster

My Bombadil is quite stiff.  Bikes that "plane" are really flexible. 
 My Bombadil does not plane.  My Rawland Stag with 7/4/7 standard 
diameter top tube and downtube does plane.  My Bombadil is very stout. 
 I use it for camping and trail riding.  At times, I am carrying most 
of the gear for a family of four.  When my bike weighs over 90lbs, the 
extra few ounces of the second top tube does not bother me.


When your bike weighs 90 pounds, a 2nd top tube may actually be doing 
you some good!   I'm happy to have a diagonal tube on a tandem, too.  
Jan notwithstanding, I had a French tandem once with twin external 
laterals.  They were decorative and made a nice place to cradle a water 
bottle, but provided no lateral stiffness whatsoever.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Jim Bronson]

Craig Calfee is one of the few guys I'd trust to sell me a crabon fiber
bike appropriate for my weight and intended usage.

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Brewster Fong  wrote:

>
> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 11:13:15 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> I own a 56cm Rivendell with a second top tube.  Brewster Fong thinks my
>> bicycle is stupid and worthy of ridicule.  I think my bicycle is beautiful
>> and I love riding it.
>>
>> My Bomba
>> 
>>
>> Brewster Fong thinks it is wrong for Grant to insult carbon fiber, but he
>> doesn't mind insulting my bike.  I get it!  Brewster Fong says "whatever
>> gets you riding!", but obviously doesn't really mean it.  I really mean
>> it.  If you love your bike,
>>
>
> You're right Bill. I should have clarified, I wasn't talking about the
> looks of double top tubes, but the *need* for it, especially on a 56cm
> bike?  Maybe you can tell us how wonderful it rides compared to a single
> top tube. Personally, I never ridden a bike with two tts, but think it
> would stiffen the bike. Wrong?  Hey, since my foot is in my mouth, maybe
> the double tt helps the bike "plane!"  Further, the double tt is not
> limited to Rivendell, there's a guy at my work who rides a Sycip with 2 tt:
>
> http://sycip.com/project/cruiser-town-bikes/
>
> Btw, I have a 18 year old carbon bike that many people find ugly! It's a
> Calfee with the gussets (webbing). There are many, many people out there
> who think its one of the ugliest bikes made. I agree, its not the
> prettiest, but man, it is so comfortable to ride!  Oh yeah, and very
> durable too!
>
> Nevertheless, I still think its wrong for Grant to insult carbon. Hey, he
> makes a good product and should be proclaiming the virtues about steel and
> his bikes. After all, doesn't he have like a 3 year wait list for one of
> his customs?
>
> So go enjoy your bike! Since it doesn't rain here any more, that means
> more time to ride! Good Luck!
>
>
>
>> that's awesome!
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:46:43 AM UTC-8, Brewster Fong wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:15:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar
>>> wrote:

 On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
 > Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my
 > buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made
 out
 > of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike
 > got him hooked and we love it!

 Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very
 similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002.  I know quite a few
 people who have them and like them a lot.  I think the Zerts inserts
 are
 pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider
 than
 a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for
 (by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse
 bikes
 people could buy.

 Yes, it is not just Specialized, but all the biggies - Trek, C'dale and
>>> Giant to name a few - now offer more "upright" riding position for all
>>> their bikes.  For example, Trek sells its carbon bikes with a H1 fit.
>>> That's the standard racing fit with low, low bars and super high saddles.
>>> BUT, they also sell the same frames/bikes with a H2 fit that has higher
>>> bars and a more upright riding position. In fact, this is how the
>>> new 10.25lb Trek Emondo, or whatever it is called,  is being offered. Then
>>> again, if you're really going to spend $15k for a bike, it better be
>>> available in any position that you want!
>>>
>>> I believe the credit for this positioning goes to Grant and his famous
>>> "raise dat stem" article that came out in the late 90s?!  Now, if we can
>>> only do something about G's fetish with double top tubes (on a 56cm frame!)
>>> and carbon bashing, we might have somethingGood Luck!
>>>
>>  --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Bill Lindsay]

Brewster

My Bombadil is quite stiff.  Bikes that "plane" are really flexible.  My 
Bombadil does not plane.  My Rawland Stag with 7/4/7 standard diameter top 
tube and downtube does plane.  My Bombadil is very stout.  I use it for 
camping and trail riding.  At times, I am carrying most of the gear for a 
family of four.  When my bike weighs over 90lbs, the extra few ounces of 
the second top tube does not bother me.  Of my 10 bikes, my Bombadil is 
definitely the most stout.  My Ibis Tandem is also very stiff, with 
radically oversized steel tubing, in addition to a long additional diagonal 
tube between the top tube and downtube.

For what it's worth, I share your opinion that a 59cm Soma San Marcos, 
which is supposed to be a sporty road bike, maybe doesn't need a second top 
tube.  But in general, when a bike doesn't appeal to me, I just don't buy 
it, and leave it at that.  Maybe somebody else does love it and wants to 
buy it, and if that gets them riding, why not!

For what it's worth 2, I'm kind of glad my 56cm Sam Hillborne doesn't have 
a second top tube, because in my application I don't need it.  That bike is 
currently built up quite light, and I just put a pair of 700x38 extralight 
Barlow Pass tires on it.  That bike should really sing on the road now! 
 I'm excited.  



On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 11:49:11 AM UTC-8, Brewster Fong wrote:
>
>
> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 11:13:15 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> I own a 56cm Rivendell with a second top tube.  Brewster Fong thinks my 
>> bicycle is stupid and worthy of ridicule.  I think my bicycle is beautiful 
>> and I love riding it.  
>>
>> My Bomba 
>> 
>>
>> Brewster Fong thinks it is wrong for Grant to insult carbon fiber, but he 
>> doesn't mind insulting my bike.  I get it!  Brewster Fong says "whatever 
>> gets you riding!", but obviously doesn't really mean it.  I really mean it. 
>>  If you love your bike, 
>>
>  
> You're right Bill. I should have clarified, I wasn't talking about the 
> looks of double top tubes, but the *need* for it, especially on a 56cm 
> bike?  Maybe you can tell us how wonderful it rides compared to a single 
> top tube. Personally, I never ridden a bike with two tts, but think it 
> would stiffen the bike. Wrong?  Hey, since my foot is in my mouth, maybe 
> the double tt helps the bike "plane!"  Further, the double tt is not 
> limited to Rivendell, there's a guy at my work who rides a Sycip with 2 tt:
>  
> http://sycip.com/project/cruiser-town-bikes/
>  
> Btw, I have a 18 year old carbon bike that many people find ugly! It's a 
> Calfee with the gussets (webbing). There are many, many people out there 
> who think its one of the ugliest bikes made. I agree, its not the 
> prettiest, but man, it is so comfortable to ride!  Oh yeah, and very 
> durable too! 
>  
> Nevertheless, I still think its wrong for Grant to insult carbon. Hey, he 
> makes a good product and should be proclaiming the virtues about steel and 
> his bikes. After all, doesn't he have like a 3 year wait list for one of 
> his customs?  
>  
> So go enjoy your bike! Since it doesn't rain here any more, that means 
> more time to ride! Good Luck! 
>  
>  
>
>> that's awesome!  
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:46:43 AM UTC-8, Brewster Fong wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:15:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar 
>>> wrote:

 On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote: 
 > Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my 
 > buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made 
 out 
 > of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike 
 > got him hooked and we love it! 

 Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very 
 similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002.  I know quite a few 
 people who have them and like them a lot.  I think the Zerts inserts 
 are 
 pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider 
 than 
 a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for 
 (by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse 
 bikes 
 people could buy. 

 Yes, it is not just Specialized, but all the biggies - Trek, C'dale and 
>>> Giant to name a few - now offer more "upright" riding position for all 
>>> their bikes.  For example, Trek sells its carbon bikes with a H1 fit. 
>>> That's the standard racing fit with low, low bars and super high saddles.  
>>> BUT, they also sell the same frames/bikes with a H2 fit that has higher 
>>> bars and a more upright riding position. In fact, this is how the 
>>> new 10.25lb Trek Emondo, or whatever it is called,  is being offered. Then 
>>> again, if you're really going to spend $15k for a bike, it better be 
>>> available in any position 

Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Brewster Fong]

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 11:13:15 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I own a 56cm Rivendell with a second top tube.  Brewster Fong thinks my 
> bicycle is stupid and worthy of ridicule.  I think my bicycle is beautiful 
> and I love riding it.  
>
> My Bomba 
> 
>
> Brewster Fong thinks it is wrong for Grant to insult carbon fiber, but he 
> doesn't mind insulting my bike.  I get it!  Brewster Fong says "whatever 
> gets you riding!", but obviously doesn't really mean it.  I really mean it. 
>  If you love your bike, 
>
 
You're right Bill. I should have clarified, I wasn't talking about the 
looks of double top tubes, but the *need* for it, especially on a 56cm 
bike?  Maybe you can tell us how wonderful it rides compared to a single 
top tube. Personally, I never ridden a bike with two tts, but think it 
would stiffen the bike. Wrong?  Hey, since my foot is in my mouth, maybe 
the double tt helps the bike "plane!"  Further, the double tt is not 
limited to Rivendell, there's a guy at my work who rides a Sycip with 2 tt:
 
http://sycip.com/project/cruiser-town-bikes/
 
Btw, I have a 18 year old carbon bike that many people find ugly! It's a 
Calfee with the gussets (webbing). There are many, many people out there 
who think its one of the ugliest bikes made. I agree, its not the 
prettiest, but man, it is so comfortable to ride!  Oh yeah, and very 
durable too! 
 
Nevertheless, I still think its wrong for Grant to insult carbon. Hey, he 
makes a good product and should be proclaiming the virtues about steel and 
his bikes. After all, doesn't he have like a 3 year wait list for one of 
his customs?  
 
So go enjoy your bike! Since it doesn't rain here any more, that means more 
time to ride! Good Luck! 
 
 

> that's awesome!  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:46:43 AM UTC-8, Brewster Fong wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:15:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote: 
>>> > Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my 
>>> > buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made out 
>>> > of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike 
>>> > got him hooked and we love it! 
>>>
>>> Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very 
>>> similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002.  I know quite a few 
>>> people who have them and like them a lot.  I think the Zerts inserts are 
>>> pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider than 
>>> a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for 
>>> (by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse bikes 
>>> people could buy. 
>>>
>>> Yes, it is not just Specialized, but all the biggies - Trek, C'dale and 
>> Giant to name a few - now offer more "upright" riding position for all 
>> their bikes.  For example, Trek sells its carbon bikes with a H1 fit. 
>> That's the standard racing fit with low, low bars and super high saddles.  
>> BUT, they also sell the same frames/bikes with a H2 fit that has higher 
>> bars and a more upright riding position. In fact, this is how the 
>> new 10.25lb Trek Emondo, or whatever it is called,  is being offered. Then 
>> again, if you're really going to spend $15k for a bike, it better be 
>> available in any position that you want! 
>>  
>> I believe the credit for this positioning goes to Grant and his famous 
>> "raise dat stem" article that came out in the late 90s?!  Now, if we can 
>> only do something about G's fetish with double top tubes (on a 56cm frame!) 
>> and carbon bashing, we might have somethingGood Luck! 
>>
>

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RE: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Annnd we have reached the dead of winter!

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lindsay
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 2:13 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

I own a 56cm Rivendell with a second top tube.  Brewster Fong thinks my bicycle 
is stupid and worthy of ridicule.  I think my bicycle is beautiful and I love 
riding it.

My 
Bomba<https://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/8474652710/in/set-72157632769612752>

Brewster Fong thinks it is wrong for Grant to insult carbon fiber, but he 
doesn't mind insulting my bike.  I get it!  Brewster Fong says "whatever gets 
you riding!", but obviously doesn't really mean it.  I really mean it.  If you 
love your bike, that's awesome!

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:46:43 AM UTC-8, Brewster Fong wrote:

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:15:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
> Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my
> buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made out
> of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike
> got him hooked and we love it!

Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very
similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002.  I know quite a few
people who have them and like them a lot.  I think the Zerts inserts are
pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider than
a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for
(by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse bikes
people could buy.
Yes, it is not just Specialized, but all the biggies - Trek, C'dale and Giant 
to name a few - now offer more "upright" riding position for all their bikes.  
For example, Trek sells its carbon bikes with a H1 fit. That's the standard 
racing fit with low, low bars and super high saddles.  BUT, they also sell the 
same frames/bikes with a H2 fit that has higher bars and a more upright riding 
position. In fact, this is how the new 10.25lb Trek Emondo, or whatever it is 
called,  is being offered. Then again, if you're really going to spend $15k for 
a bike, it better be available in any position that you want!

I believe the credit for this positioning goes to Grant and his famous "raise 
dat stem" article that came out in the late 90s?!  Now, if we can only do 
something about G's fetish with double top tubes (on a 56cm frame!) and carbon 
bashing, we might have somethingGood Luck!
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Mark Reimer]

The only thing I dislike about my Atlantis is that it doesn't have a double
top tube.

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> I own a 56cm Rivendell with a second top tube.  Brewster Fong thinks my
> bicycle is stupid and worthy of ridicule.  I think my bicycle is beautiful
> and I love riding it.
>
> My Bomba
> 
>
> Brewster Fong thinks it is wrong for Grant to insult carbon fiber, but he
> doesn't mind insulting my bike.  I get it!  Brewster Fong says "whatever
> gets you riding!", but obviously doesn't really mean it.  I really mean
> it.  If you love your bike, that's awesome!
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:46:43 AM UTC-8, Brewster Fong wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:15:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
>>> > Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my
>>> > buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made out
>>> > of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike
>>> > got him hooked and we love it!
>>>
>>> Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very
>>> similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002.  I know quite a few
>>> people who have them and like them a lot.  I think the Zerts inserts are
>>> pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider than
>>> a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for
>>> (by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse bikes
>>> people could buy.
>>>
>>> Yes, it is not just Specialized, but all the biggies - Trek, C'dale and
>> Giant to name a few - now offer more "upright" riding position for all
>> their bikes.  For example, Trek sells its carbon bikes with a H1 fit.
>> That's the standard racing fit with low, low bars and super high saddles.
>> BUT, they also sell the same frames/bikes with a H2 fit that has higher
>> bars and a more upright riding position. In fact, this is how the
>> new 10.25lb Trek Emondo, or whatever it is called,  is being offered. Then
>> again, if you're really going to spend $15k for a bike, it better be
>> available in any position that you want!
>>
>> I believe the credit for this positioning goes to Grant and his famous
>> "raise dat stem" article that came out in the late 90s?!  Now, if we can
>> only do something about G's fetish with double top tubes (on a 56cm frame!)
>> and carbon bashing, we might have somethingGood Luck!
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Bill Lindsay]

I own a 56cm Rivendell with a second top tube.  Brewster Fong thinks my 
bicycle is stupid and worthy of ridicule.  I think my bicycle is beautiful 
and I love riding it.  

My Bomba 


Brewster Fong thinks it is wrong for Grant to insult carbon fiber, but he 
doesn't mind insulting my bike.  I get it!  Brewster Fong says "whatever 
gets you riding!", but obviously doesn't really mean it.  I really mean it. 
 If you love your bike, that's awesome!  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:46:43 AM UTC-8, Brewster Fong wrote:
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:15:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>> On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote: 
>> > Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my 
>> > buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made out 
>> > of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike 
>> > got him hooked and we love it! 
>>
>> Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very 
>> similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002.  I know quite a few 
>> people who have them and like them a lot.  I think the Zerts inserts are 
>> pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider than 
>> a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for 
>> (by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse bikes 
>> people could buy. 
>>
>> Yes, it is not just Specialized, but all the biggies - Trek, C'dale and 
> Giant to name a few - now offer more "upright" riding position for all 
> their bikes.  For example, Trek sells its carbon bikes with a H1 fit. 
> That's the standard racing fit with low, low bars and super high saddles.  
> BUT, they also sell the same frames/bikes with a H2 fit that has higher 
> bars and a more upright riding position. In fact, this is how the 
> new 10.25lb Trek Emondo, or whatever it is called,  is being offered. Then 
> again, if you're really going to spend $15k for a bike, it better be 
> available in any position that you want! 
>  
> I believe the credit for this positioning goes to Grant and his famous 
> "raise dat stem" article that came out in the late 90s?!  Now, if we can 
> only do something about G's fetish with double top tubes (on a 56cm frame!) 
> and carbon bashing, we might have somethingGood Luck! 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Brewster Fong]

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:15:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote: 
> > Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my 
> > buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made out 
> > of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike 
> > got him hooked and we love it! 
>
> Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very 
> similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002.  I know quite a few 
> people who have them and like them a lot.  I think the Zerts inserts are 
> pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider than 
> a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for 
> (by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse bikes 
> people could buy. 
>
> Yes, it is not just Specialized, but all the biggies - Trek, C'dale and 
Giant to name a few - now offer more "upright" riding position for all 
their bikes.  For example, Trek sells its carbon bikes with a H1 fit. 
That's the standard racing fit with low, low bars and super high saddles.  
BUT, they also sell the same frames/bikes with a H2 fit that has higher 
bars and a more upright riding position. In fact, this is how the 
new 10.25lb Trek Emondo, or whatever it is called,  is being offered. Then 
again, if you're really going to spend $15k for a bike, it better be 
available in any position that you want! 
 
I believe the credit for this positioning goes to Grant and his famous 
"raise dat stem" article that came out in the late 90s?!  Now, if we can 
only do something about G's fetish with double top tubes (on a 56cm frame!) 
and carbon bashing, we might have somethingGood Luck! 

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Daniel D.]

Things are nicer when people are advocates for what they like rather than 
opponents of what they dislike.   No need to come across as "mean or 
judgmental"( Grant's own words in the intro to Just Ride") we're just 
talking about bikes...

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks. Oh well. My 2 Pearl Izumi summer jerseys stink as quickly as the
others. Wool, OTOH, can go for 8 hours of riding without offending the
nearby public (I sweat in winter, too). And yes, I do bathe daily -- my
cotton shirts can go at least 2 full day wearings without being offensive.

Moving on: if anyone has recommendations for cycling-cut summer jerseys --
particularly, trim fit and rear pockets -- that don't stink even for the
smelly bodied, I'd like to hear them.

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:47 AM, Andrew Marchant-Shapiro <
marchantshap...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Patrick:
>
> The two Steves speak the truth.  I generally get free jerseys from charity
> rides or pick some up from Long's when they're on sale.  I've had some
> smell a little after a century in humid Wisconsin summer weather, but not
> badly.
>
> It may be that some of us generate more toxic sweat than others--but
> personally, I don't.  Sheep or plastic, they all seem to smell the same
> when I'm done.  Lycra shorts I wash after a long ride (I don't wear them
> for short rides) just as I would anything else I had used in those
> conditions.
>
> (I know Bill Cosby is a *persona non grata*  these days, but I can't help
> but think of his remarks about his mother always insisting that he wear
> clean underwear, and imagining her reaction when a police officer tells her
> he's been in an accident:  "Did he have clean underwear?" "Yes.  We found
> it in the glove compartment.")
>
>
>
> On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:27:06 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>>  On 02/26/2015 09:22 AM, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>  * Modern cycling jerseys are, IME, very comfortable.ˆ*
>>
>>  Andy: first, not at all a snark attack.
>>
>>  I am desperately seeking hot weather jerseys that don't stink after 15
>> minutes of riding. Wool is no good for me in temperatures much over 70F. No
>> one I know of makes cotton knit jerseys. Can you recommend a ss lightweight
>> jersey, cost no object, that is relatively odorless?
>>
>>
>>
>> All I can say is, my lycra jerseys do not stink -- not after 15 min, and
>> pretty much not after a whole day of riding.  And I do not have to tell you
>> what metro DC summer conditions are like.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Kieran J]

Late to this thread - interesting and well-articulated perspectives all 
around, as per RBWOB usual.

For me, the crux of the issue is that people should find a system that 
works for them, go with it, and own it. For me, that extends throughout 
life and is an intrinsic part of living in a tolerant and diverse society. 
The drama and judgement only reinforces tunnel vision and defensiveness. 

And I don't mean to let Grant et al. off the hook; there is a bit of 
swagger from that camp as well, as others have mentioned. However I think 
RBW's relaxed vibe, practical approach and earnest business model is worth 
a lot in today's world.

I'm all bemused eyerolls when I encounter people that are so up in arms 
with what others are doing. Get over yourself and go have fun!

KJ


On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 4:08:44 PM UTC-5, Jon in the foothills of 
Central Colorado wrote:
>
> In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag
>
> PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER
>
> LETTER ‘UNRACING? UNCOOL’
>
> Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,
>
> and diets have become the norm and
>
> normal, and are so pervasive that many
>
> adult cyclists, maybe even some you
>
> know, accept the racing standards as
>
> the only legitimate way to be a serious
>
> adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the
>
> book *Just Ride *— and what we do here
>
> at Rivendell Bicycle Works — is offer
>
> an alternative, a model to other adult
>
> cyclists that there is another way. This
>
> letter is not an ad for either. I’m simply
>
> saying where I come from and what I
>
> do.
>
> We are the mice trying to squeak
>
> above the roar at the base of the
>
> waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,
>
> but I try hard to not offend.
>
> Inevitably, a declarative position on
>
> any matter is bound to raise a few
>
> hackles with those who have a different
>
> position, but it still hurts to be judged
>
> by a stranger who would probably like
>
> me, and whom I’d surely like, in person.
>
> A good number of our customers are
>
> middle-aged and older folks trying to
>
> fit in some activity as they age. They
>
> often have the means, and they’re
>
> influenced by what they read and see
>
> that promotes racers as a good model —
>
> and that’s something I don’t agree with.
>
> They shop as innocents and come
>
> out of it dressed like racers and riding
>
> bikes that are not only inappropriate
>
> for the kind of riding they do, but are,
>
> on top of that and more egregiously, not
>
> comfortable. We undo that. You may
>
> see ego or evil behind it, but I don’t
>
> feel either of those. I see racing and
>
> racers as fringe and am simply trying
>
> to legitimize an alternative point of
>
> view, one that I feel strongly about. I’m
>
> trying — certainly not singlehandedly —
>
> to make people feel good about riding
>
> without dressing in pro-team gear and
>
> copying so many other affectations of
>
> the racer, and that is what Unracing and
>
> *Just Ride *and Rivendell Bicycle Works is
>
> all about. We’re nobody’s enemy. Some
>
> of my best friends pedal cliplessly and
>
> in spandex. It’s cool.
>
> Grant Petersen
>
> Walnut Creek, California
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Marc Irwin]

This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with Bosco 
Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked why 
anybody would want a bike like that?  I said, " I can take this to the 
grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the 
Himalayas.  What can you do with that?" (pointing to his crabon crotch 
rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew 
of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start loosing 
it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs 
(diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun.  I 
might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.

Marc

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite  > wrote:
>
>> I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I 
>> can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the 
>> niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called.  I 
>> just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also 
>> accept the benefits of a fatter tire  
>>
>
> Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of one 
> of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate 
> pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and I'll 
> be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm, 
> other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock 
> hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found anything 
> else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys 
> with sublimated graphics.
>
> There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for 
> camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases 
> well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old 
> Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no 
> trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has 
> shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is 
> wrong and she needs a different one.
>
> -- 
> -- Anne Paulson
>
> It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
>  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

Patrick:

The two Steves speak the truth.  I generally get free jerseys from charity 
rides or pick some up from Long's when they're on sale.  I've had some 
smell a little after a century in humid Wisconsin summer weather, but not 
badly.

It may be that some of us generate more toxic sweat than others--but 
personally, I don't.  Sheep or plastic, they all seem to smell the same 
when I'm done.  Lycra shorts I wash after a long ride (I don't wear them 
for short rides) just as I would anything else I had used in those 
conditions.

(I know Bill Cosby is a *persona non grata*  these days, but I can't help 
but think of his remarks about his mother always insisting that he wear 
clean underwear, and imagining her reaction when a police officer tells her 
he's been in an accident:  "Did he have clean underwear?" "Yes.  We found 
it in the glove compartment.")


On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:27:06 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>  On 02/26/2015 09:22 AM, Patrick Moore wrote:
>  
>  * Modern cycling jerseys are, IME, very comfortable.ˆ*
>  
>  Andy: first, not at all a snark attack. 
>
>  I am desperately seeking hot weather jerseys that don't stink after 15 
> minutes of riding. Wool is no good for me in temperatures much over 70F. No 
> one I know of makes cotton knit jerseys. Can you recommend a ss lightweight 
> jersey, cost no object, that is relatively odorless?
>
>  
>  
> All I can say is, my lycra jerseys do not stink -- not after 15 min, and 
> pretty much not after a whole day of riding.  And I do not have to tell you 
> what metro DC summer conditions are like.
>
>
>
>
> 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[islaysteve]

I'm another Steve in the DC Metro area and my experience from when I was riding 
regularly in the summer was similar to Steve P's.  The shorts were ride once 
and wash, for anti fungal reasons, but jerseys did not necessarily need to be 
washed every time.  I used mostly Pearl Isumi jerseys, in addition to some 
others.  Full disclosure, I use antibacterial soap for showering but do not use 
an antiperspirant (allergic to that).  To tie in with current topic, my 
clothing for longer rides will not/has not changed much since I got my Bleriot 
and started reading GP's writings, other than to tone down the colors a bit.  I 
have taken his advise re shoes, and find the Thin Gripsters to be quite 
adequate with rubber-soled casual shoes.  I still prefer cycling shorts since 
anything baggy tends to snag on the saddle horn when remounting after a stop.
Steve A

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/26/2015 09:22 AM, Patrick Moore wrote:

/ Modern cycling jerseys are, IME, very comfortable.ˆ/
/
/
Andy: first, not at all a snark attack.

I am desperately seeking hot weather jerseys that don't stink after 15 
minutes of riding. Wool is no good for me in temperatures much over 
70F. No one I know of makes cotton knit jerseys. Can you recommend a 
ss lightweight jersey, cost no object, that is relatively odorless?





All I can say is, my lycra jerseys do not stink -- not after 15 min, and 
pretty much not after a whole day of riding.  And I do not have to tell 
you what metro DC summer conditions are like.





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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Patrick Moore]

* Modern cycling jerseys are, IME, very comfortable.ˆ*

Andy: first, not at all a snark attack.

I am desperately seeking hot weather jerseys that don't stink after 15
minutes of riding. Wool is no good for me in temperatures much over 70F. No
one I know of makes cotton knit jerseys. Can you recommend a ss lightweight
jersey, cost no object, that is relatively odorless?

Thanks.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

No, it was just a low-grade double, IIRC.  This would have been some time 
around '97.

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 7:24:00 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>  On 02/26/2015 04:10 AM, Andrew Marchant-Shapiro wrote:
>  
> Grant is a marketeer and an interesting person.  To some extent, he *is* 
> trying to get people to drink his Kool-Aid because that's his market 
> space.  I well recall when he was selling an older Campy front derailer.  
> It had an oversized clamp, so he sold it with a plastic sleeve that you 
> used over the seat tube to correctly fit it.  It was "the best thing ever," 
> and I've seen him do that repeatedly with old stock items.  So to some 
> extent, yeah, he's just trying to move stock.  
>
>
> I don't recall this one, but if it was the Racing T front derailleur then 
> *Hell 
> yes*, it was the best thing ever for 110/74 "compact triples" and the 
> fact that you needed a shim to get it to fit the seat tube is just the 
> price of doing business.  I still marvel at this: why on earth would 
> Campagnolo, a company with a proven track record of no interest or 
> expertise with touring gearing produce what is by far the best front 
> derailleur for such gearing I've ever seen?  So, if it was that one, it 
> wasn't "just trying to move stock" at all.
>
>
>  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/26/2015 04:10 AM, Andrew Marchant-Shapiro wrote:
Grant is a marketeer and an interesting person.  To some extent, he 
/is/ trying to get people to drink his Kool-Aid because that's his 
market space.  I well recall when he was selling an older Campy front 
derailer.  It had an oversized clamp, so he sold it with a plastic 
sleeve that you used over the seat tube to correctly fit it.  It was 
"the best thing ever," and I've seen him do that repeatedly with old 
stock items.  So to some extent, yeah, he's just trying to move stock.


I don't recall this one, but if it was the Racing T front derailleur 
then /Hell yes/, it was the best thing ever for 110/74 "compact triples" 
and the fact that you needed a shim to get it to fit the seat tube is 
just the price of doing business.  I still marvel at this: why on earth 
would Campagnolo, a company with a proven track record of no interest or 
expertise with touring gearing produce what is by far the best front 
derailleur for such gearing I've ever seen?  So, if it was that one, it 
wasn't "just trying to move stock" at all.



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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

Grant is a marketeer and an interesting person.  To some extent, he *is* 
trying to get people to drink his Kool-Aid because that's his market 
space.  I well recall when he was selling an older Campy front derailer.  
It had an oversized clamp, so he sold it with a plastic sleeve that you 
used over the seat tube to correctly fit it.  It was "the best thing ever," 
and I've seen him do that repeatedly with old stock items.  So to some 
extent, yeah, he's just trying to move stock.  Come *on*--the man sells 
luxury-class bicycles to people with money who (and I count myself in the 
'who' even though I don't own a Riv) like to pretend that they're saving 
the planet or bohemian or randonneurs or...  Look.  We're exactly like a 
sports car club.  The difference in utility for most of us between a Riv 
frame and a '70s UJB or '80s Trek is *de minimis*.  Check my blog post here 
for further thought:  
https://lawschoolissoover.wordpress.com/2014/09/06/marginalia/

At the same time, Grant has some clear philosophical convictions (some of 
which I like, many of which I disagree with, but that's between him and me) 
about the way things *should* be done.  And that's OK, too.  In fact, 
that's *great*.  That's how we learn.  Thesis, antithesis, synthesis, 
remember?

But sometimes they bleed together and Grant *sounds like* a BS artist.  His 
talk about "plastic" racing wear, for example.  Modern cycling jerseys are, 
IME, very comfortable.  Wool is nice, too.  But he uses terms that 
denigrate others to get his point across, and *that's* where the trouble 
comes in.

He should come to New Haven, where lots of people wear lots of different 
things to ride in, and some of us switch it around.  I love riding in 
street clothes, and I love riding in "plastic."  Not because I race (I 
commute and group ride all on the same dynohub-equipped bike).  I ride in 
what's suited to the circumstances.  When it's 95 and muggy, I wear plastic 
and Lycra and carry street clothes in panniers.  Etc.  Grant's language 
implies that he would consider my choice to rid exclusively in SPDs to be 
foolish and racer-y.  In fact, I find clipless more comfortable *and* it's 
far easier to find size 13B bike shoes/sandals that 13B street shoes.  Etc.

He *does* sound dictatorial from time to time.  

So do other people.

And that's when I take a leaf from the past and say "Fsck 'em if they don't 
have a sense of humor."  And go ride my bike.  The way *I* want to ride it 
that day.

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 10:58:41 PM UTC-5, Don Compton wrote:
>
> I own a Mini Cooper and see a similar thing in the group. As new , the 
> cars handle so well. But owners look at racecars that are very low and 
> think that you have to have that look and the change will surely improve 
> the handling. Well, maybe not, ( probably not). Oh well
>
> On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 1:08:44 PM UTC-8, Jon in the foothills of 
> Central Colorado wrote:
>>
>> In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag
>>
>> PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER
>>
>> LETTER ‘UNRACING? UNCOOL’
>>
>> Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,
>>
>> and diets have become the norm and
>>
>> normal, and are so pervasive that many
>>
>> adult cyclists, maybe even some you
>>
>> know, accept the racing standards as
>>
>> the only legitimate way to be a serious
>>
>> adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the
>>
>> book *Just Ride *— and what we do here
>>
>> at Rivendell Bicycle Works — is offer
>>
>> an alternative, a model to other adult
>>
>> cyclists that there is another way. This
>>
>> letter is not an ad for either. I’m simply
>>
>> saying where I come from and what I
>>
>> do.
>>
>> We are the mice trying to squeak
>>
>> above the roar at the base of the
>>
>> waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,
>>
>> but I try hard to not offend.
>>
>> Inevitably, a declarative position on
>>
>> any matter is bound to raise a few
>>
>> hackles with those who have a different
>>
>> position, but it still hurts to be judged
>>
>> by a stranger who would probably like
>>
>> me, and whom I’d surely like, in person.
>>
>> A good number of our customers are
>>
>> middle-aged and older folks trying to
>>
>> fit in some activity as they age. They
>>
>> often have the means, and they’re
>>
>> influenced by what they read and see
>>
>> that promotes racers as a good model —
>>
>> and that’s something I don’t agree with.
>>
>> They shop as innocents and come
>>
>> out of it dressed like racers and riding
>>
>> bikes that are not only inappropriate
>>
>> for the kind of riding they do, but are,
>>
>> on top of that and more egregiously, not
>>
>> comfortable. We undo that. You may
>>
>> see ego or evil behind it, but I don’t
>>
>> feel either of those. I see racing and
>>
>> racers as fringe and am simply trying
>>
>> to legitimize an alternative point of
>>
>> view, one that I feel strongly about. I’m
>>
>> trying — certainly not singlehandedly —
>>
>> to make people feel good about riding
>>
>> without dressing in pro-tea

[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Don Compton]

I own a Mini Cooper and see a similar thing in the group. As new , the cars 
handle so well. But owners look at racecars that are very low and think 
that you have to have that look and the change will surely improve the 
handling. Well, maybe not, ( probably not). Oh well

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 1:08:44 PM UTC-8, Jon in the foothills of 
Central Colorado wrote:
>
> In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag
>
> PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER
>
> LETTER ‘UNRACING? UNCOOL’
>
> Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,
>
> and diets have become the norm and
>
> normal, and are so pervasive that many
>
> adult cyclists, maybe even some you
>
> know, accept the racing standards as
>
> the only legitimate way to be a serious
>
> adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the
>
> book *Just Ride *— and what we do here
>
> at Rivendell Bicycle Works — is offer
>
> an alternative, a model to other adult
>
> cyclists that there is another way. This
>
> letter is not an ad for either. I’m simply
>
> saying where I come from and what I
>
> do.
>
> We are the mice trying to squeak
>
> above the roar at the base of the
>
> waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,
>
> but I try hard to not offend.
>
> Inevitably, a declarative position on
>
> any matter is bound to raise a few
>
> hackles with those who have a different
>
> position, but it still hurts to be judged
>
> by a stranger who would probably like
>
> me, and whom I’d surely like, in person.
>
> A good number of our customers are
>
> middle-aged and older folks trying to
>
> fit in some activity as they age. They
>
> often have the means, and they’re
>
> influenced by what they read and see
>
> that promotes racers as a good model —
>
> and that’s something I don’t agree with.
>
> They shop as innocents and come
>
> out of it dressed like racers and riding
>
> bikes that are not only inappropriate
>
> for the kind of riding they do, but are,
>
> on top of that and more egregiously, not
>
> comfortable. We undo that. You may
>
> see ego or evil behind it, but I don’t
>
> feel either of those. I see racing and
>
> racers as fringe and am simply trying
>
> to legitimize an alternative point of
>
> view, one that I feel strongly about. I’m
>
> trying — certainly not singlehandedly —
>
> to make people feel good about riding
>
> without dressing in pro-team gear and
>
> copying so many other affectations of
>
> the racer, and that is what Unracing and
>
> *Just Ride *and Rivendell Bicycle Works is
>
> all about. We’re nobody’s enemy. Some
>
> of my best friends pedal cliplessly and
>
> in spandex. It’s cool.
>
> Grant Petersen
>
> Walnut Creek, California
>

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[dougP]

That was my feeling.  She seemed to be reading too much into Just Ride and 
projecting her own interpretation.  I read the letter & scratched my head, 
not understanding why she seemed so put out.  

dougP

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 3:45:57 PM UTC-8, Chris in Redding, Ca. 
wrote:
>
> Hey All,
> I think the critic of 'Just Ride' misses the point of 'Just Ride'. The 
> error is hers. 
>
> Chris
> Redding, Ca.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Mike Schiller]

this ^^ is the first thing that makes sense in this whole thread.  

There are all kinds of fish in this giant fishbowl. Some wear sandals and 
baggy shorts...that's not me.  Lycra/wool shorts have a place for 
performance riding,  On tour, some loose fitting over-shorts are more 
appropriate.Can't we all get just along?  

~mike
Carlsbad Ca


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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[dan gee]

I can't remember who first stated it in this epic thread, but I'll agree that 
Grant's response was a little disingenuous-- Just Ride is definitely not a 
kumbaya, just-do-your-own-thing get along gang book. It says in many places 
that people who use clipless shoes, or wear lycra, or are more interested in 
riding fast than riding fun, are misguided and have been conned by the 
industry. It's a contrarian take on something that many people are passionate 
about and have their identities tied up in, so it shouldn't be surprising that 
some get their buttons pushed about this type of stuff. Regardless, you can't 
pretend that Grant isn't pushing the buttons of the roadie world, and I wish 
he'd just own it. I don't agree with all of (or these days, many of) the RBW 
ideals, but I feel much more interested in something that gleefully challenges 
the cycling status quo than something that backpedals whenever someone gets 
upset. You can't be Copernicus without getting the Pope angry at you, you know?

-Dan, DC

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Eric Daume]

I wonder sometimes if the basic image of people getting railroaded into
buying a race bike for general riding is still true, if it ever was. Grant
compares his bikes to MCFRBs, but a more apt comparison is probably a...
hybrid. Big clearances, upright positioning, fenders, racks, etc. And
that's mostly what I see people riding when I ride through the local metro
park. Yes, the group riders on Saturday morning are all clad in lycra on
carbon bikes, but that's just one small group of riders. Yes, those are the
bikes they show in Bicycling, but how often can you compare $400 hybrids?

I bet if you compared Trek's or Specialized's sales numbers, they would
sell many more hybrid bikes than road machines (though they may sell more
dollars of road bikes). The Unracer seems like the normal thing, now.

Eric Daume
Dublin, OH


On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Jim Bronson  wrote:

> Why?  Why, over and over again?  Because the racing philosophy has the
> mainstream and the LBS.  And it's not what serves most causal riders best,
> and I applaud Grant for calling them out for it.
>
> We all have seen at the LBS the times when some racerish young LBS
> employee is trying to fit an older person onto a racerish bike, that will
> not be well served by said bike.  Why is this what's in the mainstream?
>
> On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 6:40 PM, 'pb' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 3:25:08 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>>
>>> Is that the best rhetoric (argument, in the technical sense) the racing
>>> crowd could produce? That rather says it all. Sardonic grin.
>>>
>>
>> Huh?  To what are you referring?  What racing crowd?  Which argument?
>> Norma Steinberg's comments?  If so, what makes you think she represents
>> "the racing crowd"?  Are you being snarky?  I would not have expected that
>> from you.  "Snarky"?   (Sharply critical; cutting; snide?  Was that really
>> your intention, Deacon?)
>>
>> I notice that Grant's letter is much more compromising and middle-ground
>> than he has been in the past, and I commend him for that.  "What I tried to
>> do ... is offer an alternative."  "It hurts to be judged."  Well, perhaps
>> there would be less judgment from others if there had been less judgment
>> from him along the way (see Norma's last paragraph again).  In the past,
>> his language has been rather less soft than in his recent letter, for
>> instance, "it's a big fat lie."  I don't know about you, but I find that
>> phrase off-putting.  Well, that was a long time ago, so I'm not going to
>> dwell.  I'm just mentioning that as a contrast.
>>
>> I've said these things before, but here it is again.  I'm a big tent
>> cyclist.  I was a licensed road racer for almost twenty years, and I've
>> ridden with lots of folks whose names are well known.  I *love* old
>> English three-speeds.  I really miss the Schwinn New World I used to bomb
>> around the University of Colorado campus on.  I've done a good bit of
>> loaded touring and will again.  I have owned lots of steel, lots of carbon,
>> and lots of titanium, and I enjoy my Rambouillet as much as I enjoy
>> my Hampsten ti custom and my Merlin Agilis, although I'm currently really
>> smitten by my ti Serotta - Schwinn Paramount.  I read the Reader for a
>> number of years, until I stopped, because in each edition, I found some
>> comment from Grant which was openly, unmistakably insulting to "the racing
>> crowd".  Why?  Why, over and over again?  Why not just do what he does
>> well, no apology, and let it speak for itself?  It suddenly occurs to me
>> that Ritchey and Fisher and Charlie Kelly didn't need to talk about how
>> stupid road riding was when they started mountain biking, and they managed
>> to create a movement that took over the world.  They didn't need buttons
>> that said "unroadie".  They were too busy building and riding and enjoying
>> bikes to be snarky.  It's not necessary to say the other guy is stupid to
>> look good.  It's much better to just do the do.
>>
>> I've expressed this to Grant, and he has heard it, and he has said all
>> the right things to me, and thank you very much, Grant, you and I are
>> good.  I like Grant, and I do appreciate his intentions, but I think that
>> he doesn't always communicate effectively, and I understand why sometimes
>> other folks' hackles get up.  You know how humor doesn't always read well
>> on the internet?  Kind'a like that.  So, let me encourage the Riv listers
>> not to take up the sword, when Grant may have put it down.
>> A self-congratulatory sense of superiority is not charming.
>>
>> And now I'm going to go pull on a pair of lycra shorts, and a cotton polo
>> shirt, and go for a dirt road ride on my Rambouillet.
>>
>> Peter Bridge
>> San Diego
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Hugh Smitham]

I pictured the children smacking their foreheads in embarrassment for their
parents. Now that image makes me laugh.

~Hugh
On Feb 25, 2015 5:01 PM, "Mark Reimer"  wrote:

> Haha I laughed out loud when picturing that
>
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2015, at 6:58 PM, Doug Williams  wrote:
>
> There are many riders who can NOT conceive of going for a bike ride
> without their clipless shoes, jersey, the whole kit. How sad! I
> mean...there isn't anything wrong with wearing your kit to go on a serious
> bike ride. But for a short ride, you wind up spending more time dressing
> and undressing than you do riding. Plus, the kit is just stupid for many
> rides.
>
> Example: I'm a bike safety instructor and I teach bike traffic safety,
> typically to 5-7 grades. We ask for parent volunteers to tag along at the
> end of a line of 8-12 students. We make it very clear that we will be
> riding slowly, stopping often for instruction, etc. You would be amazed at
> how many volunteers show up in full kit and clipped in. They just can't
> envision an easy ride in regular clothes, no matter how appropriate for the
> situation.
>
>
> Doug
>
> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 4:20:09 PM UTC-8, Peter M wrote:
>>
>> One way to know your message has really gotten out there is when some
>> people you don't know start to genuinely hate you, hahaha!
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 7:16 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brewster Fong  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Btw, for all you paleo lovers, you'll hate this guy! While dropping
 30lbs, he still eats like a pig and that includes massive amounts of
 noodles, rice and bread (hey, a guy's got to carbo load!)...

>>>
>>> Kudos to him! I wish I had a 24 oz beer right now with which to drink
>>> his health.
>>>


>>>
>>> You do see the what I call Rivendell guys out there too. But they
 actually kind of stand out dress like "bums" in their baggy shorts,
 seersucker shirts, etc.

>>>
>>> One of them, or a near relation,  passed me today at about a 50% speed
>>> differential, up a hill. Scruffy lout! I was wearing cycling kit, too!
>>>
>>> --
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>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Leslie]

One thing I think is a factor in a lot of this, is socioeconomics.   Maybe 
I'm wrong, or, maybe not where you are, but, at least for my neck of the 
woods.  (my neck of the woods being, a non-urban center, small-town, 
car-centric region where everyone over 15 is expected to have a car or 
two)

I see the 'ensemble' of racing/club attire is used as a differentiator, 
indicating some level of affluence that you have a carbon bike, and can 
afford special clothing reserved for riding your bike, with like-minded 
people.   It's a sign of buy-in to the club.If you're not in lycra and 
spandex, if you're not on a carbon bike, then, you must not be able to 
afford such, and you are some lower-echelon person that couldn't afford a 
car, and not someone who one wants to be associated with. 

We here in RBW-Owners-Bunch are aware that that doesn't always hold true... 
our 'antique' bikes and wool underwear cost more than their Fuji Supremes 
and Primal jerseys   But we're a niche within a subset of a smaller 
group of the biking population.   It really isn't about the price tag for 
us, we're into what we like for whatever reasons we like it, and it's worth 
what we'll pay;  and for those on this group that have carbon racers too, 
well, you are on the Rivendell group, so, you're not entirely 
anti-Rivendellish, right?   But you at least understand both sides.   But 
away from our corner of the biking world, there's a lot of people that 
don't know better   they see the TdF, they want to get into shape, they 
'buy-in' with the outfits and the latest/greatest, because it must be best, 
right?   

Grant used to race;  he's not anti-racing... if you're gonna race, then go 
race, on a race bike.But if you're not racing, you might as well be 
comfortable and enjoy the ride.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Mark Reimer]

Haha I laughed out loud when picturing that



> On Feb 25, 2015, at 6:58 PM, Doug Williams  wrote:
> 
> There are many riders who can NOT conceive of going for a bike ride without 
> their clipless shoes, jersey, the whole kit. How sad! I mean...there isn't 
> anything wrong with wearing your kit to go on a serious bike ride. But for a 
> short ride, you wind up spending more time dressing and undressing than you 
> do riding. Plus, the kit is just stupid for many rides.
> 
> Example: I'm a bike safety instructor and I teach bike traffic safety, 
> typically to 5-7 grades. We ask for parent volunteers to tag along at the end 
> of a line of 8-12 students. We make it very clear that we will be riding 
> slowly, stopping often for instruction, etc. You would be amazed at how many 
> volunteers show up in full kit and clipped in. They just can't envision an 
> easy ride in regular clothes, no matter how appropriate for the situation.
> 
> 
> Doug
> 
>> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 4:20:09 PM UTC-8, Peter M wrote:
>> One way to know your message has really gotten out there is when some people 
>> you don't know start to genuinely hate you, hahaha!
>> 
>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 7:16 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Brewster Fong  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 Btw, for all you paleo lovers, you'll hate this guy! While dropping 30lbs, 
 he still eats like a pig and that includes massive amounts of noodles, 
 rice and bread (hey, a guy's got to carbo load!)...
>>> 
>>> Kudos to him! I wish I had a 24 oz beer right now with which to drink his 
>>> health.
>>> 
 You do see the what I call Rivendell guys out there too. But they actually 
 kind of stand out dress like "bums" in their baggy shorts, seersucker 
 shirts, etc. 
>>> 
>>> One of them, or a near relation,  passed me today at about a 50% speed 
>>> differential, up a hill. Scruffy lout! I was wearing cycling kit, too!
>>> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Doug Williams]

There are many riders who can NOT conceive of going for a bike ride without 
their clipless shoes, jersey, the whole kit. How sad! I mean...there isn't 
anything wrong with wearing your kit to go on a serious bike ride. But for 
a short ride, you wind up spending more time dressing and undressing than 
you do riding. Plus, the kit is just stupid for many rides.

Example: I'm a bike safety instructor and I teach bike traffic safety, 
typically to 5-7 grades. We ask for parent volunteers to tag along at the 
end of a line of 8-12 students. We make it very clear that we will be 
riding slowly, stopping often for instruction, etc. You would be amazed at 
how many volunteers show up in full kit and clipped in. They just can't 
envision an easy ride in regular clothes, no matter how appropriate for the 
situation.


Doug

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 4:20:09 PM UTC-8, Peter M wrote:
>
> One way to know your message has really gotten out there is when some 
> people you don't know start to genuinely hate you, hahaha!
>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 7:16 PM, Patrick Moore  > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Brewster Fong > wrote:
>>
>>
>> Btw, for all you paleo lovers, you'll hate this guy! While dropping 
>>> 30lbs, he still eats like a pig and that includes massive amounts of 
>>> noodles, rice and bread (hey, a guy's got to carbo load!)...
>>>
>>
>> Kudos to him! I wish I had a 24 oz beer right now with which to drink his 
>> health.
>>
>>>  
>>>
>>
>> You do see the what I call Rivendell guys out there too. But they 
>>> actually kind of stand out dress like "bums" in their baggy shorts, 
>>> seersucker shirts, etc. 
>>>
>>
>> One of them, or a near relation,  passed me today at about a 50% speed 
>> differential, up a hill. Scruffy lout! I was wearing cycling kit, too!
>>  
>> -- 
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>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Goshen Peter]

One way to know your message has really gotten out there is when some
people you don't know start to genuinely hate you, hahaha!

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 7:16 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

>
>
> Brewster Fong  wrote:
>
>
> Btw, for all you paleo lovers, you'll hate this guy! While dropping 30lbs,
>> he still eats like a pig and that includes massive amounts of noodles, rice
>> and bread (hey, a guy's got to carbo load!)...
>>
>
> Kudos to him! I wish I had a 24 oz beer right now with which to drink his
> health.
>
>>
>>
>
> You do see the what I call Rivendell guys out there too. But they actually
>> kind of stand out dress like "bums" in their baggy shorts, seersucker
>> shirts, etc.
>>
>
> One of them, or a near relation,  passed me today at about a 50% speed
> differential, up a hill. Scruffy lout! I was wearing cycling kit, too!
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Patrick Moore]

Brewster Fong  wrote:


Btw, for all you paleo lovers, you'll hate this guy! While dropping 30lbs,
> he still eats like a pig and that includes massive amounts of noodles, rice
> and bread (hey, a guy's got to carbo load!)...
>

Kudos to him! I wish I had a 24 oz beer right now with which to drink his
health.

>
>

You do see the what I call Rivendell guys out there too. But they actually
> kind of stand out dress like "bums" in their baggy shorts, seersucker
> shirts, etc.
>

One of them, or a near relation,  passed me today at about a 50% speed
differential, up a hill. Scruffy lout! I was wearing cycling kit, too!

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Joe Bernard]

A. Thanks for the sarcasm. B. There certainly were not a plethora of 
English 3-speeds running around here 25 years ago, and those hybrids 
mimicked the same riding position and drivetrains of MTBs. Also, the 
mid-'90s Globe was a sales failure, as Mike Sinyard addressed some years 
later when re-introducing the model. He said the market wasn't ready for it 
back then. I stand by my story: In 1990 the Bay Area was largely composed 
on lycra-kitted riders on two basic styles of bicycles. 

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:34:04 PM UTC-8, pb wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 7:06:34 AM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> When I started cycling in 1990 the landscape in Northern California was 
>> roadies in lycra, mountain bikers in lycra, and po' folks like me in street 
>> clothes on Goodwill beater bikes. There was no in between. 
>>
>
> Hmmmn, that's odd.  I was selling bicycles in San Francisco, I think it 
> was 1989-1991, and I sold a lot of Crossroads hybrids.  A lot of them.  Did 
> I mention, a LOT of them?  That's because I really, really liked them.  
> Yeah, racer me.  I really liked hybrids, and I thought they made a lot of 
> sense for urban riding for all the obvious reasons.  Of course, I'd been 
> riding flat bar conversion road bikes since the mid-70's.  Most of 
> my customers in 89 thought they just had to have mountain bikes, and I 
> would ask them, so do you really see yourself riding dirt trails?  (No, we 
> just want to ride around town.)  So, I would say, do me a favor and just 
> try this Crossroads ...  just try it.  Just ride it once around the block.  
> And they would come back smiling, and I would know I had sold another bike, 
> and not infrequently, I would even sell them some fenders.
>  
>
>> Now there's a whole world of city bikes and country bikes and fixies and 
>> cargo bikes and Dutch bikes being ridden in all manner of gear. Not to 
>> mention tweed rides. All of this can be traced directly back to Grant's 
>> insistence that there was a better way for a large portion of adult 
>> cyclists to approach cycling  Grant Petersen changed cycling.
>>
>>
>> Gosh, no doubt, definitely, but to be completely fair, there were a few 
> other folks who embraced a variety of ideas as well ...  let's see, Miyata 
> was offering full chaincase upright bikes in the US in the mid-80's (sweet 
> and lively 4130 bikes - I  bought my girlfriend one at The High Wheeler in 
> Boulder in 1984); I bought my Miyata 1000 in 1983, I think, but I'm not 
> sure about that one, it might have been a year or two later... and 
> Specialized and Schwinn were both offering a range of really scooty 700c 
> hybrids in the late 80's; Specialized had the Sequoia in 81, and into 
> production in 82, but maybe that's too sporty to count, although Grant 
> thought it was cool ... let's see, Specialized had Globe urban bikes in the 
> early 90's, didn't they?  Bruce Gordon introduced the Rock and Road in 1988 
>   And I was selling flat bar road bike conversions with B17's to make 
> the upright riding position more comfortable ("town shooters") to my 
> customers in Boulder in 1976 and 1977.  So yeah, lots of folks have had an 
> affinity for a variety of sensible and versatile bicycles.  Gosh, English 
> three speeds from the 30's and 40's and 50's and 60's, and Raleigh 
> Internationals, and the sweet Schwinn New World from the 40's, and French 
> low-trail rando bikes from the 50's, and Indian and Chinese roadsters, and 
> Nishiki's with 27 x 1 1/4" tires in the mid-70's  Indeed, a whole world 
> of bikes.  
>
>
>  
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Brewster Fong]

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 6:21:59 AM UTC-8, Jim Bronson wrote:
>
> Guilty as charged.  In fact I am definitely not an adherent to Grant's 
> thoughts on cycling attire.  I'm wearing plum-smuggling cycling shorts 
> every time I ride, unless it's a very, very short ride.
>
> But unlike some folks, I don't feel any pressure to conform to the Unracer 
> philosophy.  It's just more ideas about how to make cycling more enjoyable 
> and accessible to all
>
 
Agree. When I ride recreationally with the "boys" on the weekend and 
ride between 40-60 miles, I prefer lyrca and jerseys.  I also like riding 
my carbon bike as its very comfortable! :) However, I live in SF And when I 
commute, it is in street clothes. Since the ride is only 10 miles rt, but 
with hills coming home, its not too bad. Further, while commuting it seems 
that most people are in street clothes. You occasionally see a rider in a 
kit, but mainly it seems like most people commute in street clothes.
 
What's funny is one time, while commuting, I saw a friend stopped at a 
light in her car. She waved at me as I rode pass. Later, I get an email 
from her specifically commenting on why I wasn't in "spandex" (I later 
corrected her that the proper term is lycra)? I told her that for long 
rides, "spandex" works for me. However, for my short commute, street 
clothes works too and is actually preferable as most people who commute do 
so in street clothes! 
 
Also, on any given Saturday or Sunday morning at the Golden Gate Bridge, 
the meeting spot for most groups, you see a wide assortment of lycra!  
Almost everyone is in lycra and riding a CF bike!  You do see the what I 
call Rivendell guys out there too. But they actually kind of stand out 
dress like "bums" in their baggy shorts, searsucker shirts, etc.  Further, 
their bikes always look well used with racks and big tires, at least 
compared to the CF riders.  Still, you can tell they're having fun, just 
like the CF guys.  OK, maybe the Riv guys seem to have more fun than the CF 
guys, as the latter are more "serious" and ready to "get down to 
business!"  
 
We just laugh and go at our own speed! Good Luck!

>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Ron Mc > 
> wrote:
>
>> Every day, there are frightful sights in lycra on every bike path
>>
>> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 2:18:24 AM UTC-6, Peter M wrote:
>>>
>>> Every runner knows those Damn walkers are just in the way [image: 😉] 
>>> Must be winter. 
>>> On Feb 25, 2015 2:50 AM, "'pb' via RBW Owners Bunch" >> googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>


 On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 8:18:22 PM UTC-8, Doug Williams wrote:
>
> pb,
>
> Hmmm...I'm glad that you found a few good LBS's, 
>

 No, I called three, and got three answers.  I made three calls.  I got 
 three answers.  I chose the three because they were representative of 
 three 
 major corporate entities.
  

> but have you read a mainstream bicycle magazine recently? I see all 
> sorts of articles and advertisements glorifying racing and bikes so 
> lightweight that they are completely impractical for normal use. I see 
> VERY 
> few articles and advertisements featuring practical and reliable bikes or 
> articles that espouse using a bike for transportation rather than for 
> only 
> racing or exercise. Transportation? What's that? A fun ride that isn't a 
> race? What's that?
>

 Do you read Vogue to find articles on dungarees or Harris tweed?  Do 
 you read GQ to find out what to wear when gardening?  I don't even 
 know what the "mainstream bicycle magazines" are any more. I do know 
 that Bicycling (does it still exist?) didn't offer a new article, 
 or cover, in twenty years.  They just recycled the old ones on a regular 
 basis (Climb better in 30 days!  Get faster in 30 days!  Prepare for a 
 century in 30 days!  Get leaner in 30 days!).  I hope you don't pay to 
 read 
 it.  Doug, are you confusing magazines with actual journalism?  Magazines 
 exist to make money, and they'll print whatever they think will sell 
 copies.  Apparently what you think is interesting isn't what they think 
 will sell copies.  Does that prove something about your local bicycle 
 shop, 
 or does it just indicate that maybe you're looking at the wrong magazine, 
 which you knew before you picked it up.   
  

> I don't think that Grant just invented this issue. The phenomena is 
> quite real. Grant's message resonates with many because the racing 
> phenomena IS real.
>

 No, Grant didn't invent the issue, but he has fed the flames, and kept 
 it alive, and he has perpetuated a stereotype, and he has offended folks 
 along the way.  For no reason.  And I assure you that it has affected his 
 bottom line by marginalizing him.  Canonize him for that if you wish.  


>  And ye

[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

['pb' via RBW Owners Bunch]

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 7:06:34 AM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> When I started cycling in 1990 the landscape in Northern California was 
> roadies in lycra, mountain bikers in lycra, and po' folks like me in street 
> clothes on Goodwill beater bikes. There was no in between. 
>

Hmmmn, that's odd.  I was selling bicycles in San Francisco, I think it was 
1989-1991, and I sold a lot of Crossroads hybrids.  A lot of them.  Did I 
mention, a LOT of them?  That's because I really, really liked them.  Yeah, 
racer me.  I really liked hybrids, and I thought they made a lot of sense 
for urban riding for all the obvious reasons.  Of course, I'd been riding 
flat bar conversion road bikes since the mid-70's.  Most of my customers in 
89 thought they just had to have mountain bikes, and I would ask them, so 
do you really see yourself riding dirt trails?  (No, we just want to ride 
around town.)  So, I would say, do me a favor and just try this Crossroads 
...  just try it.  Just ride it once around the block.  And they would come 
back smiling, and I would know I had sold another bike, and not 
infrequently, I would even sell them some fenders.
 

> Now there's a whole world of city bikes and country bikes and fixies and 
> cargo bikes and Dutch bikes being ridden in all manner of gear. Not to 
> mention tweed rides. All of this can be traced directly back to Grant's 
> insistence that there was a better way for a large portion of adult 
> cyclists to approach cycling  Grant Petersen changed cycling.
>
>
> Gosh, no doubt, definitely, but to be completely fair, there were a few 
other folks who embraced a variety of ideas as well ...  let's see, Miyata 
was offering full chaincase upright bikes in the US in the mid-80's (sweet 
and lively 4130 bikes - I  bought my girlfriend one at The High Wheeler in 
Boulder in 1984); I bought my Miyata 1000 in 1983, I think, but I'm not 
sure about that one, it might have been a year or two later... and 
Specialized and Schwinn were both offering a range of really scooty 700c 
hybrids in the late 80's; Specialized had the Sequoia in 81, and into 
production in 82, but maybe that's too sporty to count, although Grant 
thought it was cool ... let's see, Specialized had Globe urban bikes in the 
early 90's, didn't they?  Bruce Gordon introduced the Rock and Road in 1988 
  And I was selling flat bar road bike conversions with B17's to make 
the upright riding position more comfortable ("town shooters") to my 
customers in Boulder in 1976 and 1977.  So yeah, lots of folks have had an 
affinity for a variety of sensible and versatile bicycles.  Gosh, English 
three speeds from the 30's and 40's and 50's and 60's, and Raleigh 
Internationals, and the sweet Schwinn New World from the 40's, and French 
low-trail rando bikes from the 50's, and Indian and Chinese roadsters, and 
Nishiki's with 27 x 1 1/4" tires in the mid-70's  Indeed, a whole world 
of bikes.  


 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my 
buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made out 
of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike 
got him hooked and we love it! 


Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very 
similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002.  I know quite a few 
people who have them and like them a lot.  I think the Zerts inserts are 
pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider than 
a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for 
(by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse bikes 
people could buy.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Brewster Fong]

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 1:42:01 PM UTC-8, ascpgh wrote:
>
> The right tool for the job, and the humbleness to recognize when such are 
> necessary.
>
> Folks really do take themselves too seriously. 
>
 
Agree! I love these types of threads! You see all sides. I'm from the camp 
that if CF bikes, lycra gets people riding, well go for it! I have a buddy 
who for over 20+ years, we've been trying to get him out and riding with 
us. For 20+ years, he says naw, all I need is my old  is my old mtb. He 
hated dt shifters and thought the positioning on a road bike was too 
painful.  
 
Then about 4 years ago, he wanted a new bike and went into a Specialized 
dealer. They put him on an aluminum road bike, but one designed for higher 
bars with a wider seat and BAM, he was hooked! Not only did he buy the bike 
and wanted to ride, he actually "upgraded" to the carbon model within 2 
weeks!! Further, and I'm not done yet, two years later he started talking 
to us about getting a new bike?! The next thing you know he walks into a 
Trek dealer and drops $5K+ on a Madone with the latest ultegra di2!  
Moreover, and you all will love this, this guy, who was 5'11 190, got so 
into riding that he DROPPED 30 POUNDS Yup, all of a sudden, he has the 
latest clothing (lycra jersey, shorts, the whole 9 yards) and is killing 
everyone blasting up the hill?!!  Now, this is nothing but anedotal and 
just one example, but for my buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't 
care what it was made out of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable 
aluminum frame road bike got him hooked and we love it! 
 
Btw, for all you paleo lovers, you'll hate this guy! While dropping 30lbs, 
he still eats like a pig and that includes massive amounts of noodles, rice 
and bread (hey, a guy's got to carbo load!)
 
In the meantime, I'm just the opposite and can't drop an ounce. Maybe I 
need to do that paleo thingGood Luck!

>
> Andy Cheatham
> Pittsburgh
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 9:53:57 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>> On 02/25/2015 09:41 AM, Will wrote: 
>> > Why do you need to wear special clothes to ride? Not arguing, just 
>> > curious. I've been riding for about 50 years. Newspaper bikes as a 
>> > before teenage years, then Raleigh racers in college. Shorts and tee 
>> > shirt have always worked for me. What's the advantage of bike shop 
>> > attire? 
>>
>> I will never forget the first time I tried to ride a century.  It was 
>> 1973, and I had a P15 Paramount.  I was wearing a T shirt, BVDs, cut off 
>> denim jeans for shorts, some kind of sneakers and no gloves.  By the end 
>> of the ride I had branded into my memory the true meaning of the Johnny 
>> Cash song "Ring of Fire" -- blazing lines of pain on my backside from 
>> the seams on both underwear and denim shorts, parallel grooves of pain 
>> in my feet where the edges of the pedals had transmitted their pressure 
>> through the soles of my sneakers.  My hands felt as though they were on 
>> fire as well.  Every 10 miles or so I'd stop and lie down on the ground 
>> and try to will the agony away, but by mile 75 I realized I'd been 
>> wishing a dog would run out in front of me so I could crash and just lay 
>> down on the pavement.  At that point I stopped and waited for the SAG 
>> wagon.  It's the only time I've ever SAGged back from a century. 
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[ascpgh]

The right tool for the job, and the humbleness to recognize when such are 
necessary.

Folks really do take themselves too seriously. 

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh


On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 9:53:57 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On 02/25/2015 09:41 AM, Will wrote: 
> > Why do you need to wear special clothes to ride? Not arguing, just 
> > curious. I've been riding for about 50 years. Newspaper bikes as a 
> > before teenage years, then Raleigh racers in college. Shorts and tee 
> > shirt have always worked for me. What's the advantage of bike shop 
> > attire? 
>
> I will never forget the first time I tried to ride a century.  It was 
> 1973, and I had a P15 Paramount.  I was wearing a T shirt, BVDs, cut off 
> denim jeans for shorts, some kind of sneakers and no gloves.  By the end 
> of the ride I had branded into my memory the true meaning of the Johnny 
> Cash song "Ring of Fire" -- blazing lines of pain on my backside from 
> the seams on both underwear and denim shorts, parallel grooves of pain 
> in my feet where the edges of the pedals had transmitted their pressure 
> through the soles of my sneakers.  My hands felt as though they were on 
> fire as well.  Every 10 miles or so I'd stop and lie down on the ground 
> and try to will the agony away, but by mile 75 I realized I'd been 
> wishing a dog would run out in front of me so I could crash and just lay 
> down on the pavement.  At that point I stopped and waited for the SAG 
> wagon.  It's the only time I've ever SAGged back from a century. 
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Deacon Patrick]

I loved that squeeking mouse at the base of a big waterfall image myself, 
and am thankful to Grant for being that mouse (and for the internet that 
helps the squeak for far!) for helping me find the fun in biking and even 
for making biking possible for me (the other frames I rode took a lot of 
brain energy to overcome their poor design -- a big deal for me, having a 
bludgeoned brain).

I save all kinds of brain energy because of Grant's challenging the status 
quo and my unquestioned adherence to it:

-- Ride in what I'm wearing, so not need to change. Brain energy saved!
-- Riding without a helmet isn't reckless, it can be an intelligent choice. 
(Weight rattling about on my head consumed a LOT of brain energy)
-- Bike frame geometry and handlebars and everything else moves and flows 
well with the human body. Brain energy saved!
-- wide tires, less bounding, better ride, brain energy saved!
-- who knows what I'm forgetting?!

Barring externals, I gain brain energy when I ride, and that is huge!

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[cyclotour...@gmail.com]

I really think we're in the golden-age of awesome cycling right now! I 
believe that at this point, based on my personal anecdotal observations, so 
therefore 100% valid, a lot of riding is happening! And all kinds of people 
are riding all kinds of bikes wearing all kinds of things. 

So now that is cleared up, locally to me, we have a go-fast club in Lycra 
on MCRBs. Another club that wears the matching jersies, but on all kinds of 
bikes. A lot of commuters wearing street clothes. Tons of MTBers, mostly in 
Lycra I guess, but mixed a bit in apparel. There is a small but dedicated 
group of all-roaders that ride various stuff and wear various other stuff 
depending on the day/mood/goal/wash-cycle. I tend to hang out with the 
latter group the most. Surly is the brand I see the most with them.

Shop-wise, both local shops in town are upright and conscientious, with 
good people that love bikes working there. That said, I think they steer 
people to stock on hand. MCRB, 29er, 700C hybrid. Electra cruiser. Pick 
one. They can order a Surly, a Breezer, or a baked-feet, but for the most 
part they're going to suggest one of the four standards. I wish they 
carried more varied bikes, but they seem to be making money without my 
input on their business model!

I or most anyone on this list could walk in and have a great experience and 
up with a Salsa Vaya or similar on order. Would be a great bike, and we 
would be happy, but you have to know the right questions to ask. I think 
that's probably the only downside for coming in from the outside. 


On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 10:53:01 AM UTC-8, Anne Paulson wrote:
>
> Good to hear that's what's going on in Reno/Tahoe. But I've been a 
> member of my club for 30 years, so I know the other members. They 
> haven't got Fargos sitting in their garages. They're mostly afraid of 
> dirt, and they cancel rides *if the roads are wet*. No, I am not 
> making that up; they are afraid to ride not only during a rain, but 
> after a rain. (Not that this has limited their riding in the last 
> couple of years, unfortunately.) 
>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Addison Wilhite 
> > wrote: 
> > I don't live in Silicon Valley.  However, in the Reno/Tahoe areas we 
> have 
> > multiple club rides that are going to be made up of the types of 
> kits/bikes 
> > you mention.  But that is only a snapshot of the type of riding those 
> people 
> > do.  That may be the perfect set up for a fast road ride of 30-50 miles 
> with 
> > a bunch of club racer types on a Saturday morning.  On Sunday morning 
> maybe 
> > they are grabbing their Fargos and doing a multisurface ride. 
>
> -- 
> -- Anne Paulson 
>
> It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Patrick Moore]

Well, not necessarily bike shop attire, but cycling-specific attire: less
chafing, less binding, better coverage (I hate low-waisted pants that pull
down, and short tops that pull up); less annoying flapping (windy, here);
adapts well to changes in temperature, both external and internal; doesn't
get caught in chains or on bottle cages; doesn't slip on pedals; keeps ears
warm; etc etc.

Pockets in the back!

I do agree that bike fit and setup is the most important part of cycling
comfort, though, and while I wear tights and cycling knickers in cooler
weather, I never wear padded shorts.

Now, in hot weather, I'll maintain the principle of comfort and efficiency
above all else by wearing baggy rayon shirts for the cooling effect.

I suppose each cyclist and his/her circumstances is/are different; I wish I
could ride as fast and as far as I could as a youth when I covered long
distances, *fast,* wearing jeans or cords and Safari Boots. But I remember
chafing even then.

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 7:41 AM, Will  wrote:

> Why do you need to wear special clothes to ride? Not arguing, just
> curious. I've been riding for about 50 years. Newspaper bikes as a before
> teenage years, then Raleigh racers in college. Shorts and tee shirt have
> always worked for me. What's the advantage of bike shop attire?
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Liesl]

I was in my early 40's  when I returned to biking.  The LBS in San 
Francisco didn't try to sell me a race bike, but it was clear that they 
thought if I didn't get a road/race bike, then I needed a Mountain Bike. I 
bought a Kona Fire Mountain and didn't really ride it much either in the 
Bay Area or in the Twin Cities where I've lived for the past 12 years.  
Then, when I was in my late '40's, I saw my first Riv:  an Atlantis with 
m'bars and old first generation Baggins panniers.  I fell in love.  Crawled 
around the bike on my hands and knees in love.  I googled Riv.  I poured 
over the website.  I went to Riv when I visited the Bay Area.  More in 
love.  My wise partner said, "if you (mostly) commute to work on your 
current bike, then that would justify a Riv."  I rode my Kona through the 
year, in 90 degrees, in snow, in glorius weather...and then I got a Saluki 
in 2006.

I'm a rider now.  I'm a rider again—something I hadn't been since I was 
18.  My Riv's, especially the audacious custom, feel like they are a part 
of me.

Even through I don't have one, the Atlantis brought me into the fold and 
Grant's writing, whenever and wherever I encountered it, enabled me to 
change my mindset and my way of being in the world to include bicycles.  
What a gift.

I don't care what others do or ride or wear.  I just want others who may be 
in some way like me to have the same possibility of awakening.  Sometimes 
they do need that mouse squeaking above the roar of the waterfall.  I did.

-rcw


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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Patrick Moore]

Paul and Jim: from what I observe around me in ABQ, NM, which is a
cycling-enthusiast city, is that there are all kinds of riders riding all
kinds of things, but I see more than a few fat middle aged people slowly
riding carbon fiber racing bikes in tight lycra kit on the bike path. Now
that may be their own choice, and if so, more power to them, but the
phenomenon of plainly less-than-optimally fit riders equipped with racing,
or at least, looks-like-racing gear, is there for all to see.

I think Grant is often somewhat intemperate in his assertions, but then he
is also a small voice in a big, loud world, and there is thus some excuse
for that.

FWIW: the 5 bike shops nearest my house, in order of proximity, and their
stocks:

ABQ Bicycle: family store, mostly kids, hybrids, fixies (at least, during
the fad), a few recumbents, a few tricycles. Displays various ancient DL-1s
and cousins.

Fat Tire Cycles: a very big store with a wide array from top end racing
thru cruisers and hybrids to top end mountain bikes; Surlys, too.

Hawk's Tri-Cycle: Mostly tri and racing, but some family stuff.

Stevie's Happy Bikes: A family shop: mostly hybrids, city bikes, cruisers,
mountain bikes, and old cool stuff.

High Desert Bicycles: Mostly high end racing and mtb.

(All -- tho' I don't know Hawk's very well -- give good to excellent repair
and upgrade service; they know how to order weird old parts for a '58
Herse, for example.)

On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 8:16 PM, 'pb' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 4:57:32 PM UTC-8, Jim Bronson wrote:
>>
>> Why?  Why, over and over again?  Because the racing philosophy has the
>> mainstream and the LBS.  And it's not what serves most causal riders best,
>> and I applaud Grant for calling them out for it.
>> We all have seen at the LBS the times when some racerish young LBS
>> employee is trying to fit an older person onto a racerish bike, that will
>> not be well served by said bike.  Why is this what's in the mainstream?
>>
>
> I just got off the phone with three representative LBS's.  I asked them
> all the same thing:  I'm going to send my 58-year-old neighbor in to see
> you.  He has average fitness, not bad, hikes on the weekend, hasn't ridden
> a bike since college.  He wants to start riding on weekends, maybe work up
> riding more regularly.  What kind of bike do you think he should look at
> first?  The shops were Black Mountain Bicycles, a large Specialized
> dealer, the Performance near my house, and the Trek Super Store nearest to
> my house.
>
> All three gave me the same answer: a flat bar road hybrid.  None said,
> well, duh, a racing bicycle, of course, with drop bars three inches below
> the saddle!  Then I asked about what tires would come with the bikes.  Both
> the Trek and Specialized stores said, somewhere between 32 and 38.  The guy
> at Performance said, 28 at the narrowest, but more likely 32 or 35.  Two of
> the three asked if I knew whether my friend had back or neck pain, and both
> suggested my friend should start off with something pretty upright.  The
> guy at Performance said, well, I'd really have to talk to him to find out
> what he wants to do with the bike.
>
> So, are those answers OK with you, Jim?  How big a sample do I need to
> persuade you that stereotyping the industry, LBS's, and a group of
> cyclists, has the same value as other stereotypes?  By the way, do you know
> what bike shops make the most money on, the largest margins?  Rubber and
> softgoods.  If LBS's are as stupid and singleminded as you and, apparently,
> Grant think they are, and if they are pushing bikes that will make people
> uncomfortable, tell me, do you think their customers will come back and buy
> rubber and softgoods?  Will their customers be excited about riding, and
> bring their friends in to buy bikes?
>
> Do I think the racerish sale has ever happened?  Of course I know that it
> has.  There are poor salespeople, making inappropriate sales, in every
> industry.  However, tarring the bicycle industry, and a significant group
> of its members, all with the same brush, is not productive, and does not
> reflect well on the speaker.  The whole nonsense of making an entire group
> of people wrong so that you can feel superior just needs to stop.  And I
> gotta tell you, I've never heard any of the racer-y people I know say,
> those people on lugged steel bikes with alba bars sure are stupid and
> brainwashed.
>
> I refer again to Norma's last paragraph.  Clearly, she has gotten an
> impression about Grant and about his positions, and it's not a positive
> impression.  I'm betting that she is in fact a nice person, and not a
> stupid one.  And, she's a cyclist!  However she arrived at her impression
> of Grant ... well, you draw your own conclusions.
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Anne Paulson]

Good to hear that's what's going on in Reno/Tahoe. But I've been a
member of my club for 30 years, so I know the other members. They
haven't got Fargos sitting in their garages. They're mostly afraid of
dirt, and they cancel rides *if the roads are wet*. No, I am not
making that up; they are afraid to ride not only during a rain, but
after a rain. (Not that this has limited their riding in the last
couple of years, unfortunately.)

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Addison Wilhite
 wrote:
> I don't live in Silicon Valley.  However, in the Reno/Tahoe areas we have
> multiple club rides that are going to be made up of the types of kits/bikes
> you mention.  But that is only a snapshot of the type of riding those people
> do.  That may be the perfect set up for a fast road ride of 30-50 miles with
> a bunch of club racer types on a Saturday morning.  On Sunday morning maybe
> they are grabbing their Fargos and doing a multisurface ride.

-- 
-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Addison Wilhite]

I don't live in Silicon Valley.  However, in the Reno/Tahoe areas we have
multiple club rides that are going to be made up of the types of kits/bikes
you mention.  But that is only a snapshot of the type of riding those
people do.  That may be the perfect set up for a fast road ride of 30-50
miles with a bunch of club racer types on a Saturday morning.  On Sunday
morning maybe they are grabbing their Fargos and doing a multisurface
ride.  I certainly see that in the many people I know in the bike
community.  Or maybe they are grabbing golf clubs and getting kitted out
for a different type of recreation with different group of friends.  They
are different horses in the stable and the type of ride you decide to use
them on may determine a different kit/setup.  I find people way to quick to
judge on the list when they look at another rider on a carbon bike in Lycra
and assume that person was duped by a bike shop into pretending to be Chris
Froome.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying it feels an
awful lot like self-righteousness and it troubles me.

Now if you want to judge someone for eating pet food  ;-)


Addison Wilhite, M.A.

Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 

*“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*

Educator: Professional Portfolio 

Blogger: Reno Rambler 

Bicycle Advocate: Regional Transportation Commission, Bicycle Pedestrian
Advisory Committee



On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 9:56 AM, Anne Paulson 
wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite  > wrote:
>
>> I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I
>> can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the
>> niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called.  I
>> just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also
>> accept the benefits of a fatter tire
>>
>
> Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of one
> of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate
> pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and I'll
> be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm,
> other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock
> hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found anything
> else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys
> with sublimated graphics.
>
> There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for
> camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases
> well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old
> Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no
> trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has
> shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is
> wrong and she needs a different one.
>
> --
> -- Anne Paulson
>
> It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Chris Chen]

"It finds ramparts and entrenchments where many of us see only expansive
fields.  Suggests battle lines which would put many of us at odds with
ourselves."

Hear Hear

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Cyclofiend Jim 
wrote:

> Well, I've just typed out and deleted about four different comments to
> this thread.  None of them did anything other than unearth and compound
> arguments.  Rather than rehash and empower those, I found myself stepping
> back and considering perspectives in the original-letter-to-the-editor's
> communication which seem consistent to others who have voiced similar
> opinions over the years.
>
> One thing is that they make it sound as if Grant has taken this position
> in order to sell more bikes/clothing/gear.  That it is somehow inconsistent
> with his true nature, as put on as a fallen film-star's contrition.
>
> Another is that his position is binary.  Either/Or.  My Way/Highway.
>
> A third is that it is proven wrong through a single counter-example.
>
> It finds ramparts and entrenchments where many of us see only expansive
> fields.  Suggests battle lines which would put many of us at odds with
> ourselves.
>
> Many folks need no inducement to roll out and cover the miles. It's
> unlikely the book (or other writings) were offered for them.  The more time
> you've spent riding, the more you have fallen and learned, both
> metaphorically and literally. It's a natural process to leave behind those
> things which do not help.  It's needless weight on the climb of our life.
>
> Many folks need a hand up, a push on the saddle, an offering of a required
> tool, a draftable figure in a challenging headwind.  A different route
> through the forest.
>
> Doesn't make either way right or wrong.  Take what you will.  Leave what
> don't require.
>
> - Jim
>
> cyclofiend.com
>
>
>
>
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-- 
"I want the kind of six pack you can't drink." -- Micah

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[drew beckmeyer]

well said jim. 
i think a rational skeptic's eye put to either side shows that a lot of the 
gear and the clothes and the style is more about taste than black and white 
better or worse. i definitely wont wear lycra for a host of reasons, but i 
also sometimes roll my eyes at seersucker knickers or whatever. i think to 
deny that there is chest puffery, machismo and judgement used to make 
people buy things they don't really need in the mainstream bike world is 
silly. i feel it whenever i go into a bike shop. i imagine that the guy in 
a lesser spandex suit feels it when the guy on a lighter bike and better 
spandex is next to him. i feel it on bikeforums. sometimes, though rarely, 
i feel it in rivendell related stuff.

the reason i bought a rivendell is because it felt like opting out of the 
system. getting quality, longevity, attractiveness in the process. i think 
rivendell, and the numerous companies that it has paved the way for, are 
really hitting that niche of people who have been turned off by being 
talked down to, peer pressured into getting something ridiculous (i bought 
a track bike once marketed as a commuter) and people who now avoid group 
rides. the fact that you see so many crappy linus bikes around tells me 
that the major brands have sort of lost touch with the normal bike rider, 
and people are feeling more and more ok about rejecting that paradigm. 

i dont need a fast bike, because im not a fast rider. that being said, i 
like some of them. i'd like to be able to understand some of the newer 
components and how they work. if i understood them, maybe i would buy 
one... probably not, but i dont know. i cant learn that information in a 
comfortable/equal footing sort of way. most bike people i come in contact 
with have a chip on their shoulder about one thing or another. grant and 
the rivendell people/website and people on this group have a super 
appealing, easy going way of explaining things, explaining their motive, 
explaining the pros and cons, and being transparent about other options out 
there.  ive learned a lot. ive never felt like i was bothering anyone. and 
hell, if you don't like those explanations, every other bike shop in 
america sells the other explanation. its not like lycra and carbon are 
being phased out because of rivendell. 



On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 1:08:44 PM UTC-8, Jon in the foothills of 
Central Colorado wrote:
>
> In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag
>
> PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER
>
> LETTER ‘UNRACING? UNCOOL’
>
> Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,
>
> and diets have become the norm and
>
> normal, and are so pervasive that many
>
> adult cyclists, maybe even some you
>
> know, accept the racing standards as
>
> the only legitimate way to be a serious
>
> adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the
>
> book *Just Ride *— and what we do here
>
> at Rivendell Bicycle Works — is offer
>
> an alternative, a model to other adult
>
> cyclists that there is another way. This
>
> letter is not an ad for either. I’m simply
>
> saying where I come from and what I
>
> do.
>
> We are the mice trying to squeak
>
> above the roar at the base of the
>
> waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,
>
> but I try hard to not offend.
>
> Inevitably, a declarative position on
>
> any matter is bound to raise a few
>
> hackles with those who have a different
>
> position, but it still hurts to be judged
>
> by a stranger who would probably like
>
> me, and whom I’d surely like, in person.
>
> A good number of our customers are
>
> middle-aged and older folks trying to
>
> fit in some activity as they age. They
>
> often have the means, and they’re
>
> influenced by what they read and see
>
> that promotes racers as a good model —
>
> and that’s something I don’t agree with.
>
> They shop as innocents and come
>
> out of it dressed like racers and riding
>
> bikes that are not only inappropriate
>
> for the kind of riding they do, but are,
>
> on top of that and more egregiously, not
>
> comfortable. We undo that. You may
>
> see ego or evil behind it, but I don’t
>
> feel either of those. I see racing and
>
> racers as fringe and am simply trying
>
> to legitimize an alternative point of
>
> view, one that I feel strongly about. I’m
>
> trying — certainly not singlehandedly —
>
> to make people feel good about riding
>
> without dressing in pro-team gear and
>
> copying so many other affectations of
>
> the racer, and that is what Unracing and
>
> *Just Ride *and Rivendell Bicycle Works is
>
> all about. We’re nobody’s enemy. Some
>
> of my best friends pedal cliplessly and
>
> in spandex. It’s cool.
>
> Grant Petersen
>
> Walnut Creek, California
>

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Ron Mc]

Jim, that's fair enough.  Whatever works is the correct solution, but even 
that is subjective and personal - what works for one doesn't work for 
another and vise-versa.  

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 11:39:52 AM UTC-6, Cyclofiend Jim wrote:
>
> Well, I've just typed out and deleted about four different comments to 
> this thread.  None of them did anything other than unearth and compound 
> arguments.  Rather than rehash and empower those, I found myself stepping 
> back and considering perspectives in the original-letter-to-the-editor's 
> communication which seem consistent to others who have voiced similar 
> opinions over the years. 
>
> One thing is that they make it sound as if Grant has taken this position 
> in order to sell more bikes/clothing/gear.  That it is somehow inconsistent 
> with his true nature, as put on as a fallen film-star's contrition. 
>
> Another is that his position is binary.  Either/Or.  My Way/Highway. 
>
> A third is that it is proven wrong through a single counter-example.  
>
> It finds ramparts and entrenchments where many of us see only expansive 
> fields.  Suggests battle lines which would put many of us at odds with 
> ourselves. 
>
> Many folks need no inducement to roll out and cover the miles. It's 
> unlikely the book (or other writings) were offered for them.  The more time 
> you've spent riding, the more you have fallen and learned, both 
> metaphorically and literally. It's a natural process to leave behind those 
> things which do not help.  It's needless weight on the climb of our life.  
>
> Many folks need a hand up, a push on the saddle, an offering of a required 
> tool, a draftable figure in a challenging headwind.  A different route 
> through the forest. 
>
> Doesn't make either way right or wrong.  Take what you will.  Leave what 
> you don't require.
>
> - Jim 
>
> cyclofiend.com 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Mark Reimer]

"someone will explain to her that her bike is wrong"

cue *forehead smacking into desk*

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 11:56 AM, Anne Paulson 
wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite  > wrote:
>
>> I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I
>> can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the
>> niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called.  I
>> just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also
>> accept the benefits of a fatter tire
>>
>
> Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of one
> of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate
> pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and I'll
> be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm,
> other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock
> hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found anything
> else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys
> with sublimated graphics.
>
> There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for
> camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases
> well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old
> Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no
> trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has
> shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is
> wrong and she needs a different one.
>
> --
> -- Anne Paulson
>
> It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Anne Paulson]

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite 
wrote:

> I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I
> can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the
> niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called.  I
> just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also
> accept the benefits of a fatter tire
>

Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of one of
my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate pace,
and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and I'll be
riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm, other
than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock hard.
Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found anything else
that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys with
sublimated graphics.

There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for
camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases
well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old
Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no
trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has
shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is
wrong and she needs a different one.

-- 
-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Well, I've just typed out and deleted about four different comments to this 
thread.  None of them did anything other than unearth and compound 
arguments.  Rather than rehash and empower those, I found myself stepping 
back and considering perspectives in the original-letter-to-the-editor's 
communication which seem consistent to others who have voiced similar 
opinions over the years. 

One thing is that they make it sound as if Grant has taken this position in 
order to sell more bikes/clothing/gear.  That it is somehow inconsistent 
with his true nature, as put on as a fallen film-star's contrition. 

Another is that his position is binary.  Either/Or.  My Way/Highway. 

A third is that it is proven wrong through a single counter-example.  

It finds ramparts and entrenchments where many of us see only expansive 
fields.  Suggests battle lines which would put many of us at odds with 
ourselves. 

Many folks need no inducement to roll out and cover the miles. It's 
unlikely the book (or other writings) were offered for them.  The more time 
you've spent riding, the more you have fallen and learned, both 
metaphorically and literally. It's a natural process to leave behind those 
things which do not help.  It's needless weight on the climb of our life.  

Many folks need a hand up, a push on the saddle, an offering of a required 
tool, a draftable figure in a challenging headwind.  A different route 
through the forest. 

Doesn't make either way right or wrong.  Take what you will.  Leave what 
you don't require.

- Jim 

cyclofiend.com 

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Well, I've just typed out and deleted about four different comments to this 
thread.  None of them did anything other than unearth and compound 
arguments.  Rather than rehash and empower those, I found myself stepping 
back and considering perspectives in the original-letter-to-the-editor's 
communication which seem consistent to others who have voiced similar 
opinions over the years. 

One thing is that they make it sound as if Grant has taken this position in 
order to sell more bikes/clothing/gear.  That it is somehow inconsistent 
with his true nature, as put on as a fallen film-star's contrition. 

Another is that his position is binary.  Either/Or.  My Way/Highway. 

A third is that it is proven wrong through a single counter-example.  

It finds ramparts and entrenchments where many of us see only expansive 
fields.  Suggests battle lines which would put many of us at odds with 
ourselves. 

Many folks need no inducement to roll out and cover the miles. It's 
unlikely the book (or other writings) were offered for them.  The more time 
you've spent riding, the more you have fallen and learned, both 
metaphorically and literally. It's a natural process to leave behind those 
things which do not help.  It's needless weight on the climb of our life.  

Many folks need a hand up, a push on the saddle, an offering of a required 
tool, a draftable figure in a challenging headwind.  A different route 
through the forest. 

Doesn't make either way right or wrong.  Take what you will.  Leave what 
don't require.

- Jim 

cyclofiend.com 




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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Matthew J]

The body and the riding style must have some play in this as well.

Presumably many of the loaded cycle touring Europeans one sees on the 
Eurovelo routes are riding multi-day.  They probably do not ride a full 
100+km every day and likely stop more frequently than someone attempting a 
timed ride will.  Nonetheless it immediately jumps out at this U.S. 
person's eyes how many of them are not wearing cycle specific anything.

Lycra, Spandex, cycle shoes, etc are certainly available in Europe.  Euro 
road racing club members are just as likely to be wearing full race gear as 
those in the U.S.  Tourists however consistently hew to the GP ideal. 
 Either they are all masochists or they have discovered a happy medium many 
cycle tourists in the U.S. have not.

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