Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[ascpgh]

Precisely why I held onto this Mavic toolkit  
http://www.tearsforgears.com/2012/09/mavic-tools.html 
 before letting go and 
selling it to Jeremy. 

No maker since has been so open with information about installing and 
removing bearings from their components, providing diagrams and making 
tools available. When they do, I'll be looking.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh



On Monday, December 1, 2014 4:12:02 PM UTC-5, Anton Tutter wrote:
>
> As far as I know, the only reliable way to remove and install bearings is 
> with the appropriate press.  I've used simple DIY presses for pressing 
> bearings into place, but for removing them you need either an arbor press 
> or wheel puller. 
>
> I believe PW uses NTN bearings which are indeed very high quality Japanese 
> bearings. But they order them to their own specs, which no one outside the 
> company really knows... 
>
>
>
> On Monday, December 1, 2014 2:13:49 PM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:
>>
>> I've been emailing back and forth with Phil Wood this morning on this 
>> very issue actually, after they noticed a discussion I was having on 
>> Twitter about lube for PW freehubs. I gave them a detailed run down of the 
>> problem and the three different lubes i've tried (phil grease, then 
>> tenacious, then triflow). I'll let you know what they say, but I'm betting 
>> it'll be 'send it in'... When this first started happening I did an 
>> extensive search online and found there were several others with the same 
>> issue, and some didn't receive their hubs back for several months. That is 
>> not an acceptable solution. 
>>
>> The freewheel style hubs should certainly be less susceptible to problems 
>> as there are basically no moving parts in them. Pretty much the same as the 
>> single speed hubs. 
>>
>> That said, I've had problems with one single speed rear hub and one front 
>> road hub. The rear single speed bearings went in the first six months for 
>> me, which was being ridden in some nasty weather, but still. When I 
>> replaced them with new Phil bearings according to the instructions on PW's 
>> website, the bearings were destroyed by the install process! I emailed PW 
>> to ask if I had done something wrong and they indicated the process by 
>> which I installed the bearings would result in bearing failure. I pointed 
>> out I used their own instructions from their website, and I was told the 
>> instructions were no longer valid... That was about three-four years ago. 
>> The instructions are still on their site...
>>
>> I replaced them a second time using a different method and they've been 
>> great ever since. Lots of wet and sandy weather, they continue to get 
>> smoother. It was an expensive lesson though, as PW bearings are not cheap.
>>
>> My front road hub has a fair amount of side-to-side play at the rim. I 
>> know a certain amount is normal for cartridge bearings, but it was enough 
>> that it would rattle quite loudly when bounced up and down. None of my 
>> others have that issue.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Garth  wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Mark,
>>>
>>>Yikes about the PW attachment of the CS shell.   I for one prefer the 
>>> FW/CS body mechanism and it's attachment not being able to render a wheel 
>>> unusable .  I do not own CS hubs , my needs have always been served with 
>>> FW's and FW hubs . I have 2 sets of Phil FW hubs and they've been flawless 
>>> themselves, as expected.  I'm all about user serviceability for the most 
>>> part.  No, I don't tear down FW's completely but do take off the cogs and 
>>> clean the inside and relube them.  I'll likely never buy a high end CS hub 
>>> unless it's design is not vulnerable like the PW CS hub is in it's 
>>> attachment and need to send in the entire wheel to PW to get it fixed.  
>>> That's just unreasonable to me.   I guess that's why I love the 
>>> independence of the FW system :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, December 1, 2014 11:47:37 AM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:

 In regards to the Phil Wood hubs, the problem is often with the ratchet 
 ring which is threaded into the hub shell/body. The issue isn't often that 
 the pawls themselves are faulty, they just can't engage with a faulty 
 ratchet ring. And for whatever reason Phil Wood does not sell the tool to 
 remove and replace the ratchet ring, even to bike shops. I've read many 
 times that there was as bad run of ratchet rings several years back and 
 this was a common replacement. 

 On my hub, the ring and pawls all look fine to me, the issue is that 
 the spring which pushes the pawls outward into the ratchet ring isn't very 
 strong. A ticker oil like Tenacious oil, combined with colder weather is 
 just too much for the spring to force the pawls into the ratchet and 
 engage. 


  -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
>>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch"

Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Anton Tutter]

Nice trick. And a good reason to hang to the old bearings! They become 
tools.



On Monday, December 1, 2014 4:28:16 PM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
>
> 
> Attached is a photo of how I've been pressing new bearings in. It's worked 
> perfectly for about 4-5 hubs now. I lightly grease the outer bearing race 
> and the inside of the hub shell. Then I have a thick and heavy washer which 
> covers both the inner AND outer race of the bearing. This insures that the 
> pressure isn't just applied to the inner race, which will lead to damage 
> and failure. Then I have the old bearing, followed by the PW axle spacer. 
> Then it's simple - just thread the axle bolt into the hub and crank the new 
> bearing in. 
>
> The original PW instructions did not specify the water, just the old 
> bearing. The axle spacer would push hard on the old inner race, which would 
> in turn drive the new bearing into the shell from its inner race. That's 
> just too much force on a part that was never intended to have forces 
> applied. My version mitigates that issue and only cost me about 20 cents :)
>
> On Monday, December 1, 2014 3:12:02 PM UTC-6, Anton Tutter wrote:
>>
>> As far as I know, the only reliable way to remove and install bearings is 
>> with the appropriate press.  I've used simple DIY presses for pressing 
>> bearings into place, but for removing them you need either an arbor press 
>> or wheel puller. 
>>
>> I believe PW uses NTN bearings which are indeed very high quality 
>> Japanese bearings. But they order them to their own specs, which no one 
>> outside the company really knows... 
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, December 1, 2014 2:13:49 PM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:
>>>
>>> I've been emailing back and forth with Phil Wood this morning on this 
>>> very issue actually, after they noticed a discussion I was having on 
>>> Twitter about lube for PW freehubs. I gave them a detailed run down of the 
>>> problem and the three different lubes i've tried (phil grease, then 
>>> tenacious, then triflow). I'll let you know what they say, but I'm betting 
>>> it'll be 'send it in'... When this first started happening I did an 
>>> extensive search online and found there were several others with the same 
>>> issue, and some didn't receive their hubs back for several months. That is 
>>> not an acceptable solution. 
>>>
>>> The freewheel style hubs should certainly be less susceptible to 
>>> problems as there are basically no moving parts in them. Pretty much the 
>>> same as the single speed hubs. 
>>>
>>> That said, I've had problems with one single speed rear hub and one 
>>> front road hub. The rear single speed bearings went in the first six months 
>>> for me, which was being ridden in some nasty weather, but still. When I 
>>> replaced them with new Phil bearings according to the instructions on PW's 
>>> website, the bearings were destroyed by the install process! I emailed PW 
>>> to ask if I had done something wrong and they indicated the process by 
>>> which I installed the bearings would result in bearing failure. I pointed 
>>> out I used their own instructions from their website, and I was told the 
>>> instructions were no longer valid... That was about three-four years ago. 
>>> The instructions are still on their site...
>>>
>>> I replaced them a second time using a different method and they've been 
>>> great ever since. Lots of wet and sandy weather, they continue to get 
>>> smoother. It was an expensive lesson though, as PW bearings are not cheap.
>>>
>>> My front road hub has a fair amount of side-to-side play at the rim. I 
>>> know a certain amount is normal for cartridge bearings, but it was enough 
>>> that it would rattle quite loudly when bounced up and down. None of my 
>>> others have that issue.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Garth  wrote:
>>>
 Thanks Mark,

Yikes about the PW attachment of the CS shell.   I for one prefer 
 the FW/CS body mechanism and it's attachment not being able to render a 
 wheel unusable .  I do not own CS hubs , my needs have always been served 
 with FW's and FW hubs . I have 2 sets of Phil FW hubs and they've been 
 flawless themselves, as expected.  I'm all about user serviceability for 
 the most part.  No, I don't tear down FW's completely but do take off the 
 cogs and clean the inside and relube them.  I'll likely never buy a high 
 end CS hub unless it's design is not vulnerable like the PW CS hub is in 
 it's attachment and need to send in the entire wheel to PW to get it 
 fixed.  That's just unreasonable to me.   I guess that's why I love the 
 independence of the FW system :)





 On Monday, December 1, 2014 11:47:37 AM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> In regards to the Phil Wood hubs, the problem is often with the 
> ratchet ring which is threaded into the hub

Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Mark Reimer]

Attached is a photo of how I've been pressing new bearings in. It's worked 
perfectly for about 4-5 hubs now. I lightly grease the outer bearing race 
and the inside of the hub shell. Then I have a thick and heavy washer which 
covers both the inner AND outer race of the bearing. This insures that the 
pressure isn't just applied to the inner race, which will lead to damage 
and failure. Then I have the old bearing, followed by the PW axle spacer. 
Then it's simple - just thread the axle bolt into the hub and crank the new 
bearing in. 

The original PW instructions did not specify the water, just the old 
bearing. The axle spacer would push hard on the old inner race, which would 
in turn drive the new bearing into the shell from its inner race. That's 
just too much force on a part that was never intended to have forces 
applied. My version mitigates that issue and only cost me about 20 cents :)

On Monday, December 1, 2014 3:12:02 PM UTC-6, Anton Tutter wrote:
>
> As far as I know, the only reliable way to remove and install bearings is 
> with the appropriate press.  I've used simple DIY presses for pressing 
> bearings into place, but for removing them you need either an arbor press 
> or wheel puller. 
>
> I believe PW uses NTN bearings which are indeed very high quality Japanese 
> bearings. But they order them to their own specs, which no one outside the 
> company really knows... 
>
>
>
> On Monday, December 1, 2014 2:13:49 PM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:
>>
>> I've been emailing back and forth with Phil Wood this morning on this 
>> very issue actually, after they noticed a discussion I was having on 
>> Twitter about lube for PW freehubs. I gave them a detailed run down of the 
>> problem and the three different lubes i've tried (phil grease, then 
>> tenacious, then triflow). I'll let you know what they say, but I'm betting 
>> it'll be 'send it in'... When this first started happening I did an 
>> extensive search online and found there were several others with the same 
>> issue, and some didn't receive their hubs back for several months. That is 
>> not an acceptable solution. 
>>
>> The freewheel style hubs should certainly be less susceptible to problems 
>> as there are basically no moving parts in them. Pretty much the same as the 
>> single speed hubs. 
>>
>> That said, I've had problems with one single speed rear hub and one front 
>> road hub. The rear single speed bearings went in the first six months for 
>> me, which was being ridden in some nasty weather, but still. When I 
>> replaced them with new Phil bearings according to the instructions on PW's 
>> website, the bearings were destroyed by the install process! I emailed PW 
>> to ask if I had done something wrong and they indicated the process by 
>> which I installed the bearings would result in bearing failure. I pointed 
>> out I used their own instructions from their website, and I was told the 
>> instructions were no longer valid... That was about three-four years ago. 
>> The instructions are still on their site...
>>
>> I replaced them a second time using a different method and they've been 
>> great ever since. Lots of wet and sandy weather, they continue to get 
>> smoother. It was an expensive lesson though, as PW bearings are not cheap.
>>
>> My front road hub has a fair amount of side-to-side play at the rim. I 
>> know a certain amount is normal for cartridge bearings, but it was enough 
>> that it would rattle quite loudly when bounced up and down. None of my 
>> others have that issue.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Garth  wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Mark,
>>>
>>>Yikes about the PW attachment of the CS shell.   I for one prefer the 
>>> FW/CS body mechanism and it's attachment not being able to render a wheel 
>>> unusable .  I do not own CS hubs , my needs have always been served with 
>>> FW's and FW hubs . I have 2 sets of Phil FW hubs and they've been flawless 
>>> themselves, as expected.  I'm all about user serviceability for the most 
>>> part.  No, I don't tear down FW's completely but do take off the cogs and 
>>> clean the inside and relube them.  I'll likely never buy a high end CS hub 
>>> unless it's design is not vulnerable like the PW CS hub is in it's 
>>> attachment and need to send in the entire wheel to PW to get it fixed.  
>>> That's just unreasonable to me.   I guess that's why I love the 
>>> independence of the FW system :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, December 1, 2014 11:47:37 AM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:

 In regards to the Phil Wood hubs, the problem is often with the ratchet 
 ring which is threaded into the hub shell/body. The issue isn't often that 
 the pawls themselves are faulty, they just can't engage with a faulty 
 ratchet ring. And for whatever reason Phil Wood does not sell the tool to 
 remove and replace the ratchet ring, even to bike s

Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Anton Tutter]

As far as I know, the only reliable way to remove and install bearings is 
with the appropriate press.  I've used simple DIY presses for pressing 
bearings into place, but for removing them you need either an arbor press 
or wheel puller. 

I believe PW uses NTN bearings which are indeed very high quality Japanese 
bearings. But they order them to their own specs, which no one outside the 
company really knows... 



On Monday, December 1, 2014 2:13:49 PM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> I've been emailing back and forth with Phil Wood this morning on this very 
> issue actually, after they noticed a discussion I was having on Twitter 
> about lube for PW freehubs. I gave them a detailed run down of the problem 
> and the three different lubes i've tried (phil grease, then tenacious, then 
> triflow). I'll let you know what they say, but I'm betting it'll be 'send 
> it in'... When this first started happening I did an extensive search 
> online and found there were several others with the same issue, and some 
> didn't receive their hubs back for several months. That is not an 
> acceptable solution. 
>
> The freewheel style hubs should certainly be less susceptible to problems 
> as there are basically no moving parts in them. Pretty much the same as the 
> single speed hubs. 
>
> That said, I've had problems with one single speed rear hub and one front 
> road hub. The rear single speed bearings went in the first six months for 
> me, which was being ridden in some nasty weather, but still. When I 
> replaced them with new Phil bearings according to the instructions on PW's 
> website, the bearings were destroyed by the install process! I emailed PW 
> to ask if I had done something wrong and they indicated the process by 
> which I installed the bearings would result in bearing failure. I pointed 
> out I used their own instructions from their website, and I was told the 
> instructions were no longer valid... That was about three-four years ago. 
> The instructions are still on their site...
>
> I replaced them a second time using a different method and they've been 
> great ever since. Lots of wet and sandy weather, they continue to get 
> smoother. It was an expensive lesson though, as PW bearings are not cheap.
>
> My front road hub has a fair amount of side-to-side play at the rim. I 
> know a certain amount is normal for cartridge bearings, but it was enough 
> that it would rattle quite loudly when bounced up and down. None of my 
> others have that issue.
>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Garth > 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Mark,
>>
>>Yikes about the PW attachment of the CS shell.   I for one prefer the 
>> FW/CS body mechanism and it's attachment not being able to render a wheel 
>> unusable .  I do not own CS hubs , my needs have always been served with 
>> FW's and FW hubs . I have 2 sets of Phil FW hubs and they've been flawless 
>> themselves, as expected.  I'm all about user serviceability for the most 
>> part.  No, I don't tear down FW's completely but do take off the cogs and 
>> clean the inside and relube them.  I'll likely never buy a high end CS hub 
>> unless it's design is not vulnerable like the PW CS hub is in it's 
>> attachment and need to send in the entire wheel to PW to get it fixed.  
>> That's just unreasonable to me.   I guess that's why I love the 
>> independence of the FW system :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, December 1, 2014 11:47:37 AM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:
>>>
>>> In regards to the Phil Wood hubs, the problem is often with the ratchet 
>>> ring which is threaded into the hub shell/body. The issue isn't often that 
>>> the pawls themselves are faulty, they just can't engage with a faulty 
>>> ratchet ring. And for whatever reason Phil Wood does not sell the tool to 
>>> remove and replace the ratchet ring, even to bike shops. I've read many 
>>> times that there was as bad run of ratchet rings several years back and 
>>> this was a common replacement. 
>>>
>>> On my hub, the ring and pawls all look fine to me, the issue is that the 
>>> spring which pushes the pawls outward into the ratchet ring isn't very 
>>> strong. A ticker oil like Tenacious oil, combined with colder weather is 
>>> just too much for the spring to force the pawls into the ratchet and 
>>> engage. 
>>>
>>>
>>>  -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/gprQ76JepBA/unsubscribe
>> .
>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 
>> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
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>> .
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Mark Reimer]

I've been emailing back and forth with Phil Wood this morning on this very
issue actually, after they noticed a discussion I was having on Twitter
about lube for PW freehubs. I gave them a detailed run down of the problem
and the three different lubes i've tried (phil grease, then tenacious, then
triflow). I'll let you know what they say, but I'm betting it'll be 'send
it in'... When this first started happening I did an extensive search
online and found there were several others with the same issue, and some
didn't receive their hubs back for several months. That is not an
acceptable solution.

The freewheel style hubs should certainly be less susceptible to problems
as there are basically no moving parts in them. Pretty much the same as the
single speed hubs.

That said, I've had problems with one single speed rear hub and one front
road hub. The rear single speed bearings went in the first six months for
me, which was being ridden in some nasty weather, but still. When I
replaced them with new Phil bearings according to the instructions on PW's
website, the bearings were destroyed by the install process! I emailed PW
to ask if I had done something wrong and they indicated the process by
which I installed the bearings would result in bearing failure. I pointed
out I used their own instructions from their website, and I was told the
instructions were no longer valid... That was about three-four years ago.
The instructions are still on their site...

I replaced them a second time using a different method and they've been
great ever since. Lots of wet and sandy weather, they continue to get
smoother. It was an expensive lesson though, as PW bearings are not cheap.

My front road hub has a fair amount of side-to-side play at the rim. I know
a certain amount is normal for cartridge bearings, but it was enough that
it would rattle quite loudly when bounced up and down. None of my others
have that issue.

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Garth  wrote:

> Thanks Mark,
>
>Yikes about the PW attachment of the CS shell.   I for one prefer the
> FW/CS body mechanism and it's attachment not being able to render a wheel
> unusable .  I do not own CS hubs , my needs have always been served with
> FW's and FW hubs . I have 2 sets of Phil FW hubs and they've been flawless
> themselves, as expected.  I'm all about user serviceability for the most
> part.  No, I don't tear down FW's completely but do take off the cogs and
> clean the inside and relube them.  I'll likely never buy a high end CS hub
> unless it's design is not vulnerable like the PW CS hub is in it's
> attachment and need to send in the entire wheel to PW to get it fixed.
> That's just unreasonable to me.   I guess that's why I love the
> independence of the FW system :)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, December 1, 2014 11:47:37 AM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:
>>
>> In regards to the Phil Wood hubs, the problem is often with the ratchet
>> ring which is threaded into the hub shell/body. The issue isn't often that
>> the pawls themselves are faulty, they just can't engage with a faulty
>> ratchet ring. And for whatever reason Phil Wood does not sell the tool to
>> remove and replace the ratchet ring, even to bike shops. I've read many
>> times that there was as bad run of ratchet rings several years back and
>> this was a common replacement.
>>
>> On my hub, the ring and pawls all look fine to me, the issue is that the
>> spring which pushes the pawls outward into the ratchet ring isn't very
>> strong. A ticker oil like Tenacious oil, combined with colder weather is
>> just too much for the spring to force the pawls into the ratchet and
>> engage.
>>
>>
>>  --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Garth]

Thanks Mark,

   Yikes about the PW attachment of the CS shell.   I for one prefer the 
FW/CS body mechanism and it's attachment not being able to render a wheel 
unusable .  I do not own CS hubs , my needs have always been served with 
FW's and FW hubs . I have 2 sets of Phil FW hubs and they've been flawless 
themselves, as expected.  I'm all about user serviceability for the most 
part.  No, I don't tear down FW's completely but do take off the cogs and 
clean the inside and relube them.  I'll likely never buy a high end CS hub 
unless it's design is not vulnerable like the PW CS hub is in it's 
attachment and need to send in the entire wheel to PW to get it fixed.  
That's just unreasonable to me.   I guess that's why I love the 
independence of the FW system :)





On Monday, December 1, 2014 11:47:37 AM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> In regards to the Phil Wood hubs, the problem is often with the ratchet 
> ring which is threaded into the hub shell/body. The issue isn't often that 
> the pawls themselves are faulty, they just can't engage with a faulty 
> ratchet ring. And for whatever reason Phil Wood does not sell the tool to 
> remove and replace the ratchet ring, even to bike shops. I've read many 
> times that there was as bad run of ratchet rings several years back and 
> this was a common replacement. 
>
> On my hub, the ring and pawls all look fine to me, the issue is that the 
> spring which pushes the pawls outward into the ratchet ring isn't very 
> strong. A ticker oil like Tenacious oil, combined with colder weather is 
> just too much for the spring to force the pawls into the ratchet and 
> engage. 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Patrick Moore]

Forgot to add that even the oldest and apparently most used of the Phil bbs
and hubs I've owned *all* turned as smoothly, or (one or two) almost as
smoothly, as the new ones I've turned. I've never maintained any of them.

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 11:00 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Just for the record: in many miles and years of using Phil ss/fixed hubs
> and bbs, many of each bought second or third or any other-hand -- the
> wheelset on the erstwhile Herse used 3-piece Phil fw hubs -- in admittedly
> dry conditions, I've never had any problem except twice with loosening bb
> lockrings that were fixed with re-tightening. This includes the current,
> old, steel-shelled -- how old, how many owners? -- bb on the Ram which was
> converted from 116 to 103 using a hammer; and the custom 145 bb on a fixed
> mtb that was ridden into 2 feet of water and never serviced -- it spun as
> new when I disassembled the bike a year or so later (the ti Phil bb on my
> commuter also got plenty of drenching rain and deep puddles).
>
> I don't say that Phill bbs and hubs won't degrade quickly in regular wet
> weather use; don't know. But that is my experience (and my brother's, which
> is even more extensive than mine -- So Cal, mostly). Also, my last *new* Phil
> purchase (as opposed to much more recent purchases of even older and used
> bbs and hubs) was the 2003 Ti bb for the commuter; perhaps the new ones
> aren't up to the old ones.
>



-- 
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By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
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Patrick Moore
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*
*[I]n exploring the physical universe man has made no attempt to explore
himself. Much of what goes by the name of pleasure is simply an effort to
destroy consciousness. If one started by asking, what is man? what are his
needs? how can he best express himself? one would discover that merely
having the power to avoid work and live one’s life from birth to death in
electric light and to the tune of tinned music is not a reason for doing
so.”*
*
  -- George Orwell, Pleasure Spots*

*Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not money,
I am become as a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have
the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and
though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not
money, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and
though I give my body to be burned, and have not money, it profiteth me
nothing. Money suffereth long, and it is kind; money envieth not; money
vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave unseemly, seeketh
not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; rejoiceth not in
iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; beareth all things, hopeth all
things, endureth all things. . . . And now abideth faith, hope, money,
these three; but the greatest of these is money. *
*
 -- George Orwell, Keep The Apidistra Flying*

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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Patrick Moore]

Just for the record: in many miles and years of using Phil ss/fixed hubs
and bbs, many of each bought second or third or any other-hand -- the
wheelset on the erstwhile Herse used 3-piece Phil fw hubs -- in admittedly
dry conditions, I've never had any problem except twice with loosening bb
lockrings that were fixed with re-tightening. This includes the current,
old, steel-shelled -- how old, how many owners? -- bb on the Ram which was
converted from 116 to 103 using a hammer; and the custom 145 bb on a fixed
mtb that was ridden into 2 feet of water and never serviced -- it spun as
new when I disassembled the bike a year or so later (the ti Phil bb on my
commuter also got plenty of drenching rain and deep puddles).

I don't say that Phill bbs and hubs won't degrade quickly in regular wet
weather use; don't know. But that is my experience (and my brother's, which
is even more extensive than mine -- So Cal, mostly). Also, my last *new* Phil
purchase (as opposed to much more recent purchases of even older and used
bbs and hubs) was the 2003 Ti bb for the commuter; perhaps the new ones
aren't up to the old ones.

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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Cyclofiend Jim]

My experience has generally been that the better components (not 
necessarily top of the line, which can be lightened to the exclusion of 
resilience) don't necessarily work better.  They work better, longer.

- Jim / cyclofiend.com

On Thursday, November 27, 2014 4:54:55 PM UTC-8, Benedikt wrote:
>
> Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs, cranks, 
> cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better then the entry level? What is 
> it that drives the price up? Is it the performance or just the material 
> it's made up of/weight?
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Mark Reimer]

In regards to the Phil Wood hubs, the problem is often with the ratchet
ring which is threaded into the hub shell/body. The issue isn't often that
the pawls themselves are faulty, they just can't engage with a faulty
ratchet ring. And for whatever reason Phil Wood does not sell the tool to
remove and replace the ratchet ring, even to bike shops. I've read many
times that there was as bad run of ratchet rings several years back and
this was a common replacement.

On my hub, the ring and pawls all look fine to me, the issue is that the
spring which pushes the pawls outward into the ratchet ring isn't very
strong. A ticker oil like Tenacious oil, combined with colder weather is
just too much for the spring to force the pawls into the ratchet and
engage.

On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Garth  wrote:

>
> For the owners of cassette hubs, if you have problems with the FW
> mechanism, can/do you not have a spare FW mech. on hand and replace it and
> deal with fixing it(or sending it to the mfr) or trashing it later so you
> don't have to send the entire wheel away ?  Sending the wheel just makes no
> sense nor is it really reasonable for those who don't keep spare entire
> wheels on hand.
>
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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Garth]

For the owners of cassette hubs, if you have problems with the FW 
mechanism, can/do you not have a spare FW mech. on hand and replace it and 
deal with fixing it(or sending it to the mfr) or trashing it later so you 
don't have to send the entire wheel away ?  Sending the wheel just makes no 
sense nor is it really reasonable for those who don't keep spare entire 
wheels on hand.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Mark Reimer]

Just got back from the coldest ride of the year thus far, -26C without
windchill (I mention the cold as it is troublesome for many different
brands of rear hubs), and it looks like the Phil Wood pawls have finally
stopped skipping. I disassembled the whole ratchet mechanism and degreased
it, then gave it a small amount of TriFlow - just enough to give a thin
coating. Now the freewheel has a quiet but pleasant sound (before it was
basically silent) and has a reassuring, positive engagement every time.
Hopefully this will be the trick that lasts the winter.

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> I've found that White Industries rear hubs are much quieter if you keep
> pedalling!  Ha!  Wink!  8-)
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Bill Lindsay]

I've found that White Industries rear hubs are much quieter if you keep 
pedalling!  Ha!  Wink!  8-)

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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Chris Chen]

I just tell myself that at least they're not Chris King hubs...

On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 6:36 PM, Anton Tutter  wrote:

> I've had great luck with my T11 rear hub but man are those pawls
> annoyingly loud.  Anyone have any tips for quieting them up?
>
> Anton
>
>
> On Sunday, November 30, 2014 2:26:00 PM UTC-5, Christopher Chen wrote:
>>
>> Yes they do, and I love my T11 hubs fiercely!
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Benedikt 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Anton I completely agree with you when it comes to Phil Wood hubs and
>>> the replacable bearings. I believe it's a cartridge bearing. As a side
>>> note, does anyone know if White Industries hubs use replacable cartridge
>>> bearings? I love the MUSA factor.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, November 27, 2014 4:54:55 PM UTC-8, Benedikt wrote:

 Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs,
 cranks, cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better then the entry level?
 What is it that drives the price up? Is it the performance or just the
 material it's made up of/weight?

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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "I want the kind of six pack you can't drink." -- Micah
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Anton Tutter]

I've had great luck with my T11 rear hub but man are those pawls annoyingly 
loud.  Anyone have any tips for quieting them up?

Anton


On Sunday, November 30, 2014 2:26:00 PM UTC-5, Christopher Chen wrote:
>
> Yes they do, and I love my T11 hubs fiercely!
>
> On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Benedikt  > wrote:
>
>> Anton I completely agree with you when it comes to Phil Wood hubs and the 
>> replacable bearings. I believe it's a cartridge bearing. As a side note, 
>> does anyone know if White Industries hubs use replacable cartridge 
>> bearings? I love the MUSA factor.
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, November 27, 2014 4:54:55 PM UTC-8, Benedikt wrote:
>>>
>>> Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs, 
>>> cranks, cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better then the entry level? 
>>> What is it that drives the price up? Is it the performance or just the 
>>> material it's made up of/weight?
>>>
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>
>
>
> -- 
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>  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Chris Chen]

Yes they do, and I love my T11 hubs fiercely!

On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Benedikt 
wrote:

> Anton I completely agree with you when it comes to Phil Wood hubs and the
> replacable bearings. I believe it's a cartridge bearing. As a side note,
> does anyone know if White Industries hubs use replacable cartridge
> bearings? I love the MUSA factor.
>
>
> On Thursday, November 27, 2014 4:54:55 PM UTC-8, Benedikt wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs, cranks,
>> cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better then the entry level? What is
>> it that drives the price up? Is it the performance or just the material
>> it's made up of/weight?
>>
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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Jan Heine]

Sorry, I mistyped: The below sentence should say "external SEALS" (not 
bearings).

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 12:20:50 PM UTC-8, Jan Heine wrote:
>
> The bearings on Phil hubs really need external bearings – they aren't 
> designed to be exposed to the elements. Look around any industrial 
> application (or even your car) – you won't find cartridge bearings exposed 
> to the elements, unless the piece of machinery is only used indoors.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Jan Heine]

The current owners of the Phil Wood company sometimes do make misleading 
statements, like "We have often been credited with inventing the cartridge 
bearing bottom bracket" in an interview in the Reader No. 40. (Note how 
they don't claim that they invented it... Cartridge bearings in hubs and 
BBs have been around at least since the 1930s.) That one really bothered 
the historian in me!

I wouldn't be surprised if the submersible pumps used the same bearings, 
but I suspect that they have external seals that make sure the bearings 
don't get wet in the first place! The bearings on Phil hubs really need 
external bearings – they aren't designed to be exposed to the elements. 
Look around any industrial application (or even your car) – you won't find 
cartridge bearings exposed to the elements, unless the piece of machinery 
is only used indoors.

Disclosure: Compass Bicycles sells SKF bottom brackets, so we are a 
competitor to Phil Wood.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
Seattle WA USA
www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 9:37:18 AM UTC-8, Anton Tutter wrote:
>
> It was indeed water that destroyed my Phil bearings, but what confuses me 
> is that Phil states they use the highest grade of seals available, 
> basically the same ones used on submersible pump bearings.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Mark Reimer]

That's what I use. Doesn't make a difference. I've used bulk housing and fancy 
jagwire kits. Teflon cables and plain steel. Still run into problems with my 
105 brifters. 



> On Nov 29, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Jim Bronson  wrote:
> 
> Replacement cables and housing?  Why not just use better housing in
> the first place?  The top of the line Jagwire can be had in an OEM
> pack enough for a whole bike for around $20 on fleabay.
> 
> I've abandoned using the housing that ships with new shifters.  The
> Jagwire stuff works better and lasts longer.
> 
>> On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 4:31 PM, Mark Reimer  wrote:
>> I've had two Shimano 105 groupsets (9spd and 10spd), both of which were used
>> on cross bikes. Great price and excellent value, though not truly a set it
>> and forget it kinda thing..
>> 
>> I'd ride that bike on gravel road rides, nasty weather and of course racing
>> cross. Everything on the 105 group worked well expect for the shifters,
>> which seems to constantly need attention. I'd need to shift up two clicks
>> then back down one just to pull the derailleur over sometimes. I think it
>> was caused by grime getting into the cables/housing, not really the shifters
>> themselves though, but it was annoying that I always seemed to be the only
>> person suffereing this problem on group rides, where others would be riding
>> Ultegra, Dura Ace, or SRAM. If i put new cables and housing on I'd get
>> perfect shifting for several weeks, then start hitting the snags again.
>> 
>> It's a fact that STI shifters are more prone to falling out of alignment
>> than bar end shifters, but I also have a Campy Athena 11spd group that I
>> didn't need to trim once in three years... That group is hands down the best
>> performing and most reliable group I've ever seen. Plus, it comes in SILVER!
>> The hoods are incredibly comfortable, it shifts so smoothly (even under
>> load), the brakes are excellent, and the chains last forever. It is
>> definitely more expensive up front, but in the long run my 105 groups have
>> cost me much more money in replacement cables, chains, housing, and other
>> parts.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Friday, November 28, 2014 3:29:59 PM UTC-6, Anton Tutter wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yes, White Ind. hubs use cartridge bearings!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Friday, November 28, 2014 3:34:09 PM UTC-5, Benedikt wrote:
 
 Anton I completely agree with you when it comes to Phil Wood hubs and the
 replacable bearings. I believe it's a cartridge bearing. As a side note,
 does anyone know if White Industries hubs use replacable cartridge 
 bearings?
 I love the MUSA factor.
 
> On Thursday, November 27, 2014 4:54:55 PM UTC-8, Benedikt wrote:
> 
> Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs,
> cranks, cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better then the entry 
> level?
> What is it that drives the price up? Is it the performance or just the
> material it's made up of/weight?
>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Jim Bronson]

Speaking of bearing races on loose ball bearing hubs, is it possible
to micropolish them as is done in crankshaft and rod journals in
internal combustion engines?  That seems to me like something that
could prolong the usefulness of loose bearing hubs, along with high
quality ball bearings and grease.

On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Anton Tutter  wrote:
> Andy, there are certainly exceptions like you point out, where a premium is
> put on weight savings over durability.  And it's generally accepted that a
> $20 Shimano UN55 bottom bracket will last as long as an expensive
> weight-weenie titanium bottom bracket, and operate just as smoothly. But
> it's also very well known that certain high-end hubs can last forever,
> compared to low end hubs with lower quality bearing races and seals that
> wear out quickly.
>
> My favorite components are those that use replaceable cartridge bearings.
> This way, you can just replace the bearings if they go bad rather than
> sacrifice an expensive component.  I had a very expensive titanium Phil BB
> go bad after it sat in rusty water that built up inside my frame.  It ruined
> the bearings.  Phil replaced the bearings for me for a nominal fee, and as a
> result, I had a new BB again. If it had been a lower end, non-serviceable
> BB, it would have had to been chucked.
>
> Anton
>
>
> On Friday, November 28, 2014 11:09:35 AM UTC-5, ascpgh wrote:
>>
>> The exception to " But for things with complex moving parts like STI
>> shifters, or things with bearings like hubs and bottom brackets, more
>> expensive is generally better." is when those expenses bring about lighter
>> material use that doesn't necessarily play well with the intended use of a
>> group.
>>
>> On a long ago cross country ride by four riders, one bar end shifted 8
>> speed one Ultegra STI and two Dura Ace STI drivetrains, one group proved to
>> need attention and demonstrated wear first. It was the DA STI. By
>> mid-continent the shifters were ill-behaving and each rider required a
>> replacement. Collective wear, be it from dust in the air, water-carried grit
>> or the water itself in the form of rain, automobile road spray or
>> mind-numbing mile after mile of other bicycle wheel spray, took its toll on
>> the DA but not the Ultegra. I continue to use the same bar ends from that
>> ride.
>>
>> The expense of an aluminum pivot pin over a CrMo or stainless one may
>> weigh less, if that is the intent, but it sure will wear down faster. The
>> "more expensive" moving parts may not be particularly better if durability
>> is the primary objective. By durable, I think about my commuter bike and its
>> mid-level gear that sucks up the abuse of its use like the super fly,
>> high-end stuff most likely cannot.
>>
>> Andy Cheatham
>> Pittsburgh
>>
>>
>> On Friday, November 28, 2014 8:50:25 AM UTC-5, Anton Tutter wrote:
>>>
>>> You've opened a can of worms with that question, as I'm sure you'll
>>> receive a bevy of opinions.
>>>
>>> In my experience, low-end groups (Shimano Acera, Sora) not only perform
>>> sub-par but also are much heavier and don't last as long. As you move up the
>>> food chain, they get lighter, operate with more precision, and last longer
>>> due various reasons, such as better bearings, more expensive materials, etc.
>>> But the climb up the food chain isn't always linear, and some component
>>> levels around the middle of the pack stand out as exemplary given their
>>> price-point and marketing placement. For example, Shimano 105 has always
>>> impressed me, giving 90% of the quality of Dura Ace but at 30% of the price.
>>> I'm sure similar comparisons can be made with SRAM and Campagnolo groups,
>>> but I don't have first hand experience current iterations of those brands'
>>> groups.
>>>
>>> And then there's also the trickle-down effect. Component manufacturers
>>> will put the results of their latest technologies on their expensive
>>> components, and when they become proven over time and cheaper to
>>> manufacturer, they trickle down into the lower groups. Think technologies
>>> like STI. Originally introduced in the Dura Ace group 25 years ago, now even
>>> entry level road groups use the technology. So a low-end group today may be
>>> as good as or better than a group one step up from 10-20 years ago.
>>> Sometimes I have a tough time discerning the quality difference of newer
>>> Sora components and older 105/ultegra components.
>>>
>>> With certain components like cassettes and cranks, where there are
>>> essentially no moving parts, the only thing the higher group level gets you
>>> is weight savings. But for things with complex moving parts like STI
>>> shifters, or things with bearings like hubs and bottom brackets, more
>>> expensive is generally better.
>>>
>>> Anton
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, November 27, 2014 7:54:55 PM UTC-5, Benedikt wrote:

 Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs,
 cranks, cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better 

Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Jim Bronson]

Replacement cables and housing?  Why not just use better housing in
the first place?  The top of the line Jagwire can be had in an OEM
pack enough for a whole bike for around $20 on fleabay.

I've abandoned using the housing that ships with new shifters.  The
Jagwire stuff works better and lasts longer.

On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 4:31 PM, Mark Reimer  wrote:
> I've had two Shimano 105 groupsets (9spd and 10spd), both of which were used
> on cross bikes. Great price and excellent value, though not truly a set it
> and forget it kinda thing..
>
> I'd ride that bike on gravel road rides, nasty weather and of course racing
> cross. Everything on the 105 group worked well expect for the shifters,
> which seems to constantly need attention. I'd need to shift up two clicks
> then back down one just to pull the derailleur over sometimes. I think it
> was caused by grime getting into the cables/housing, not really the shifters
> themselves though, but it was annoying that I always seemed to be the only
> person suffereing this problem on group rides, where others would be riding
> Ultegra, Dura Ace, or SRAM. If i put new cables and housing on I'd get
> perfect shifting for several weeks, then start hitting the snags again.
>
> It's a fact that STI shifters are more prone to falling out of alignment
> than bar end shifters, but I also have a Campy Athena 11spd group that I
> didn't need to trim once in three years... That group is hands down the best
> performing and most reliable group I've ever seen. Plus, it comes in SILVER!
> The hoods are incredibly comfortable, it shifts so smoothly (even under
> load), the brakes are excellent, and the chains last forever. It is
> definitely more expensive up front, but in the long run my 105 groups have
> cost me much more money in replacement cables, chains, housing, and other
> parts.
>
>
>
> On Friday, November 28, 2014 3:29:59 PM UTC-6, Anton Tutter wrote:
>>
>> Yes, White Ind. hubs use cartridge bearings!
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, November 28, 2014 3:34:09 PM UTC-5, Benedikt wrote:
>>>
>>> Anton I completely agree with you when it comes to Phil Wood hubs and the
>>> replacable bearings. I believe it's a cartridge bearing. As a side note,
>>> does anyone know if White Industries hubs use replacable cartridge bearings?
>>> I love the MUSA factor.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, November 27, 2014 4:54:55 PM UTC-8, Benedikt wrote:

 Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs,
 cranks, cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better then the entry level?
 What is it that drives the price up? Is it the performance or just the
 material it's made up of/weight?
>
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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Philip Williamson]

Huh... Thinking of specifics over the last few years, I mostly buy used 
boutique stuff. Used pushes things down into the sweet spot, but it has its 
pitfalls. A couple White ENO rings just toothed to hell, a Phil Kiss Off 
wheelset that needed a bearing and a rim replaced. 

I tend to keep the same bikes for years and years, though, to the point that I 
now need to redo the Bontrager cockpit to raise the bars - somehow they got too 
low in the last couple years! 

King hubs are no longer Sweet Spot hubs, but the Bontrager/King hubs that came 
on the Privateer are the best I've ever used. Oh yeah - that was a Sweet Spot 
bike. Closeouts can push stuff into the Sweet Spot: Discontinued line from the 
year before, XTR and King spec, "the steel hardtail had no future." The equal 
or better of the Ibis and IF bikes I test rode, but half the price. The resale 
value isn't there, but I can't imagine a better mountain bike. 

My Quickbeam was a Sweet Spot bike. Rivendell's "most moderately priced 
offering," it was exactly what I wanted in a bike at the time (but with less 
tire clearance). The Quickbeam, like the Singular Gryphon, is fairly unique, so 
the Sweet Spot is that they exist at all.

That said, I have a bunch of 105 level stuff in a box for my next geared road 
bike. And I've recently bought new and been totally happy with: Shimano 
cartridge BB; Salsa stem; Cane Creek headset (the mechanic 100% prefers King, 
but I've never had a bad headset). Vee Rubber tires. Mid-level 9 speed 
cassettes. Cheap 9 speed cassettes, for that matter.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Patrick Shea]

I've replaced the  bearings on both Phil and WI hubs. Any bike or bearing
store will have them. My Phil hubs on my old All Rounder used to squeal at
times; I once pulled and rotated them all on the Strand in Hermosa Beach.
I've been sold on sealed bearings ever since getting my first pair of Road
Rider skateboard wheels in the '70s.



On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Anton Tutter  wrote:

> Yes, White Ind. hubs use cartridge bearings!
>
>
>
> On Friday, November 28, 2014 3:34:09 PM UTC-5, Benedikt wrote:
>>
>> Anton I completely agree with you when it comes to Phil Wood hubs and the
>> replacable bearings. I believe it's a cartridge bearing. As a side note,
>> does anyone know if White Industries hubs use replacable cartridge
>> bearings? I love the MUSA factor.
>>
>> On Thursday, November 27, 2014 4:54:55 PM UTC-8, Benedikt wrote:
>>>
>>> Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs,
>>> cranks, cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better then the entry level?
>>> What is it that drives the price up? Is it the performance or just the
>>> material it's made up of/weight?
>>>
>>  --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Anton Tutter]

Yikes, that is indeed scary, but FWIW, I've heard of spindle fractures on 
many brands, cheap and expensive (including Phil, Tange, SKF), but those 
catastrophic failures seem so rare that I didn't include them when 
mentioning reliability. I wouldn't exclude using a brand that someone had 
such a failure with.



On Saturday, November 29, 2014 10:15:00 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>  On 11/29/2014 09:58 AM, Anton Tutter wrote:
>  
>
>  I'm also surprised at the number of Phil Wood complaints. I also wonder 
> if most of the complaints are directed at their hub product line, because 
> *the 
> only real thing that can go wrong with their BBs is the bearings-*- there 
> are no other moving parts!  Since they don't manufacture their own bearings 
> but use standard bearings (of which they source very high quality ones from 
> the Japanese mfr NTN), the reliability of their BBs should be no better or 
> worse than any other brand that uses similarly high quality bearings.
>
>  
> Absolutely incorrect.
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Anton Tutter]

I didn't test the SKF in another bike's BB shell because I didn't have a 
free one available at the time.  That would have been the best test of 
whether the new bike's threads were too shallow, or the SKF's too large. 
But since the Shimano had no problems in the new bike, I attributed the 
problem to the SKF.

It was indeed water that destroyed my Phil bearings, but what confuses me 
is that Phil states they use the highest grade of seals available, 
basically the same ones used on submersible pump bearings.

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 12:20:37 PM UTC-5, Jan Heine wrote:
>
> The problem with Phil Wood BBs and hubs isn't the bearings, but the lack 
> of seals for them. The black rubber shields are intended to keep out dust, 
> not water. So you basically have the bearings exposed to the elements... If 
> you ride in the rain, they won't last long. As you point out, at least they 
> are replaceable.
>
> Regarding the SKF bottom bracket you installed, it sounds that either the 
> BB shell's threads are too small (worn reamer), or the SKF unit's threads 
> are too large. That would constrict the BB, reduce its diameter, and cause 
> rough running of the rollers on the driveside. The SKF does have a very 
> thin shell (to maximize space for the bearings inside and minimize the 
> weight), so it may be a bit more sensitive to misalignment, etc., than 
> other BBs with thicker shells. If your friend's BB is faulty, then it's 
> covered by our 10-year warranty, of course (which includes the bearings, 
> unlike almost all other BB warranties).
>
> Jan Heine
> Compass Bicycles Ltd.
> www.compasscycle.com
>
> Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
>
> On Saturday, November 29, 2014 6:58:54 AM UTC-8, Anton Tutter wrote:
>
>> Phil Wood complaints. [...]  Since they don't manufacture their own 
>> bearings but use standard bearings (of which they source very high quality 
>> ones from the Japanese mfr NTN), the reliability of their BBs should be no 
>> better or worse than any other brand that uses similarly high quality 
>> bearings.
>>
>> As for SKF BBs, I have never owned one but I had an interesting 
>> experience installing one on a friend's bike.  Her frame was a new, 
>> hand-built frame from a known Boston-area master builder, so there was no 
>> possibility of the BB having been faced/chased improperly.  The SKF 
>> threaded in by hand and spun very smoothly, until the drive side cup was 
>> torqued to spec.  Then the bearings began to bind and feel rough. If I 
>> backed off the torque and loosened the DS cup, the bearings turned smoothly 
>> again.  This was without the NDS cup installed, so there were no axial 
>> alignment issues causing the binding-- the non-drive side was right on axis 
>> and the NDS cup could thread in without binding the cartridge.  I suspect 
>> the cartridge housing, which is milled as one piece with the DS cup, had 
>> been improperly made, and when torqued into the BB shell, deformed 
>> slightly, putting stress on the bearing where where there shouldn't be. 
>> When I grabbed another random used Shimano cartridge unit from my parts 
>> bin, it torqued in just fine and remained smooth.
>>
>> Anton
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, November 29, 2014 8:07:07 AM UTC-5, ascpgh wrote:
>>>
>>> Anton, You touched on my major favorite. Mavic headsets, bottom brackets 
>>> and hubs of the late '80s and early '90s opened a special place in my 
>>> heart, for cartridge bearings particularly. The BB was fantastic, 
>>> serviceable without deinstalling. The bearings were not fiddly odd ducks, 
>>> I'd picked some up at an industrial bearing supply house. Appreciating the 
>>> same, I have had fluctuating luck with the Phil BBs. I switched to the SKF 
>>> in my Ram when I changed my triple to a wide double. I was very much into 
>>> that era of Mavic components until their manufacture ended. I still found 
>>> NOS at shops ten years later. That headset, predating threadless, was 
>>> fantastic in its design and operation.  Once the sourcing of those parts 
>>> became rare I sold my Mavic mechanic's toolkit to Jeremy at 
>>> http://www.tearsforgears.com (On the front page, the picture for Mavic 
>>> tools is the box. All those technical drawings on mylar pages too.)
>>>
>>> Shifting systems have always been moving targets when trying to pin down 
>>> the sweet spot. Indexed shifting has an impulse that the shifter generates 
>>> and transmits down the cable to which the derailleur responds. The 
>>> different brands do so in different manners which vary where the stress 
>>> peaks are and also how those pieces are able to tolerate being cheapened 
>>> for budget groups. The chain and cog teeth interaction once the shift 
>>> impulse is initiated is the final interaction. Shimano shifting seems to 
>>> produce the highest spike of impulse energy for indexed shifts and I feel 
>>> like over the years it is a key source of the wear that befalls their "out 
>>> of the box" shifting first. These 

[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Jan Heine]

The problem with Phil Wood BBs and hubs isn't the bearings, but the lack of 
seals for them. The black rubber shields are intended to keep out dust, not 
water. So you basically have the bearings exposed to the elements... If you 
ride in the rain, they won't last long. As you point out, at least they are 
replaceable.

Regarding the SKF bottom bracket you installed, it sounds that either the 
BB shell's threads are too small (worn reamer), or the SKF unit's threads 
are too large. That would constrict the BB, reduce its diameter, and cause 
rough running of the rollers on the driveside. The SKF does have a very 
thin shell (to maximize space for the bearings inside and minimize the 
weight), so it may be a bit more sensitive to misalignment, etc., than 
other BBs with thicker shells. If your friend's BB is faulty, then it's 
covered by our 10-year warranty, of course (which includes the bearings, 
unlike almost all other BB warranties).

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 6:58:54 AM UTC-8, Anton Tutter wrote:

> Phil Wood complaints. [...]  Since they don't manufacture their own 
> bearings but use standard bearings (of which they source very high quality 
> ones from the Japanese mfr NTN), the reliability of their BBs should be no 
> better or worse than any other brand that uses similarly high quality 
> bearings.
>
> As for SKF BBs, I have never owned one but I had an interesting experience 
> installing one on a friend's bike.  Her frame was a new, hand-built frame 
> from a known Boston-area master builder, so there was no possibility of the 
> BB having been faced/chased improperly.  The SKF threaded in by hand and 
> spun very smoothly, until the drive side cup was torqued to spec.  Then the 
> bearings began to bind and feel rough. If I backed off the torque and 
> loosened the DS cup, the bearings turned smoothly again.  This was without 
> the NDS cup installed, so there were no axial alignment issues causing the 
> binding-- the non-drive side was right on axis and the NDS cup could thread 
> in without binding the cartridge.  I suspect the cartridge housing, which 
> is milled as one piece with the DS cup, had been improperly made, and when 
> torqued into the BB shell, deformed slightly, putting stress on the bearing 
> where where there shouldn't be. When I grabbed another random used Shimano 
> cartridge unit from my parts bin, it torqued in just fine and remained 
> smooth.
>
> Anton
>
>
> On Saturday, November 29, 2014 8:07:07 AM UTC-5, ascpgh wrote:
>>
>> Anton, You touched on my major favorite. Mavic headsets, bottom brackets 
>> and hubs of the late '80s and early '90s opened a special place in my 
>> heart, for cartridge bearings particularly. The BB was fantastic, 
>> serviceable without deinstalling. The bearings were not fiddly odd ducks, 
>> I'd picked some up at an industrial bearing supply house. Appreciating the 
>> same, I have had fluctuating luck with the Phil BBs. I switched to the SKF 
>> in my Ram when I changed my triple to a wide double. I was very much into 
>> that era of Mavic components until their manufacture ended. I still found 
>> NOS at shops ten years later. That headset, predating threadless, was 
>> fantastic in its design and operation.  Once the sourcing of those parts 
>> became rare I sold my Mavic mechanic's toolkit to Jeremy at 
>> http://www.tearsforgears.com (On the front page, the picture for Mavic 
>> tools is the box. All those technical drawings on mylar pages too.)
>>
>> Shifting systems have always been moving targets when trying to pin down 
>> the sweet spot. Indexed shifting has an impulse that the shifter generates 
>> and transmits down the cable to which the derailleur responds. The 
>> different brands do so in different manners which vary where the stress 
>> peaks are and also how those pieces are able to tolerate being cheapened 
>> for budget groups. The chain and cog teeth interaction once the shift 
>> impulse is initiated is the final interaction. Shimano shifting seems to 
>> produce the highest spike of impulse energy for indexed shifts and I feel 
>> like over the years it is a key source of the wear that befalls their "out 
>> of the box" shifting first. These sudden yanks of cable have left so many 
>> rear derailleurs with accumulated play in the parallelogram pivots, as that 
>> thread about STX pointed out. Anyone have a strong feeling as to the 
>> durability of your shift cables in a particular brand's drivetrain? 
>>
>> There is nothing better than a sweet functioning component, even more so 
>> if light too. I have to say I have been confounded by such components when 
>> they don't meet the expectations that either the expense or effort to 
>> provide for them in a build. Bottom of the top third hub offerings from 
>> Shimano have done well for me and I think no ill thoughts about their 
>> retirement. I was about to s

Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Richard]

Glad to hear you weren't hurt Steve. Definitely a catastrophic failure, and one 
without warning.

I have a Phil Wood BB on my Hilsen. I'm guessing it has about 3-4,000 miles on 
it. So far so good, but I'll  probably switch it out to a SKF at some 
point.I've read the Phil Wood BB isn't very water resistant. I have two SKF BBs 
on other bikes, and they are both super smooth.

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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Anton Tutter]

Well thought reply, Andy. I had never thought about the differences in 
impulse energy among various indexing shifters. I do wonder whether the 
sudden pulses contribute to derailleur parallelogram pivot wear... of 
course another part of that equation is the material of the pivot pins. I 
would expect on higher end derailleurs that they are made of a more durable 
material.  I know that the original XT series (aka Deerhead) mtn derailleur 
suffered from premature pivot wear, and this was pre-indexing.

I have a set of MAVIC 500/550 hubs on my Jack Taylor, and the cartridge 
bearings spin smoother than any other hubs in my stable. Smoother than 
Campy NR, smoother than DA 7400 (both in their own rights very smooth). And 
I rest assured that if the MAVIC bearings ever go south, I just replace 
them for a few bucks.  No need to replace the hub.

I'm also surprised at the number of Phil Wood complaints. I also wonder if 
most of the complaints are directed at their hub product line, because the 
only real thing that can go wrong with their BBs is the bearings-- there 
are no other moving parts!  Since they don't manufacture their own bearings 
but use standard bearings (of which they source very high quality ones from 
the Japanese mfr NTN), the reliability of their BBs should be no better or 
worse than any other brand that uses similarly high quality bearings.

As for SKF BBs, I have never owned one but I had an interesting experience 
installing one on a friend's bike.  Her frame was a new, hand-built frame 
from a known Boston-area master builder, so there was no possibility of the 
BB having been faced/chased improperly.  The SKF threaded in by hand and 
spun very smoothly, until the drive side cup was torqued to spec.  Then the 
bearings began to bind and feel rough. If I backed off the torque and 
loosened the DS cup, the bearings turned smoothly again.  This was without 
the NDS cup installed, so there were no axial alignment issues causing the 
binding-- the non-drive side was right on axis and the NDS cup could thread 
in without binding the cartridge.  I suspect the cartridge housing, which 
is milled as one piece with the DS cup, had been improperly made, and when 
torqued into the BB shell, deformed slightly, putting stress on the bearing 
where where there shouldn't be. When I grabbed another random used Shimano 
cartridge unit from my parts bin, it torqued in just fine and remained 
smooth.

Anton


On Saturday, November 29, 2014 8:07:07 AM UTC-5, ascpgh wrote:
>
> Anton, You touched on my major favorite. Mavic headsets, bottom brackets 
> and hubs of the late '80s and early '90s opened a special place in my 
> heart, for cartridge bearings particularly. The BB was fantastic, 
> serviceable without deinstalling. The bearings were not fiddly odd ducks, 
> I'd picked some up at an industrial bearing supply house. Appreciating the 
> same, I have had fluctuating luck with the Phil BBs. I switched to the SKF 
> in my Ram when I changed my triple to a wide double. I was very much into 
> that era of Mavic components until their manufacture ended. I still found 
> NOS at shops ten years later. That headset, predating threadless, was 
> fantastic in its design and operation.  Once the sourcing of those parts 
> became rare I sold my Mavic mechanic's toolkit to Jeremy at 
> http://www.tearsforgears.com (On the front page, the picture for Mavic 
> tools is the box. All those technical drawings on mylar pages too.)
>
> Shifting systems have always been moving targets when trying to pin down 
> the sweet spot. Indexed shifting has an impulse that the shifter generates 
> and transmits down the cable to which the derailleur responds. The 
> different brands do so in different manners which vary where the stress 
> peaks are and also how those pieces are able to tolerate being cheapened 
> for budget groups. The chain and cog teeth interaction once the shift 
> impulse is initiated is the final interaction. Shimano shifting seems to 
> produce the highest spike of impulse energy for indexed shifts and I feel 
> like over the years it is a key source of the wear that befalls their "out 
> of the box" shifting first. These sudden yanks of cable have left so many 
> rear derailleurs with accumulated play in the parallelogram pivots, as that 
> thread about STX pointed out. Anyone have a strong feeling as to the 
> durability of your shift cables in a particular brand's drivetrain? 
>
> There is nothing better than a sweet functioning component, even more so 
> if light too. I have to say I have been confounded by such components when 
> they don't meet the expectations that either the expense or effort to 
> provide for them in a build. Bottom of the top third hub offerings from 
> Shimano have done well for me and I think no ill thoughts about their 
> retirement. I was about to send a set back to PJW for a new build and he 
> instead offered a new in box set of XTs that made postage and three days 
> time ev

[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Matthew J]

MaxiCar and Royce hubs have put in many miles for me.


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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[ascpgh]

Anton, You touched on my major favorite. Mavic headsets, bottom brackets 
and hubs of the late '80s and early '90s opened a special place in my 
heart, for cartridge bearings particularly. The BB was fantastic, 
serviceable without deinstalling. The bearings were not fiddly odd ducks, 
I'd picked some up at an industrial bearing supply house. Appreciating the 
same, I have had fluctuating luck with the Phil BBs. I switched to the SKF 
in my Ram when I changed my triple to a wide double. I was very much into 
that era of Mavic components until their manufacture ended. I still found 
NOS at shops ten years later. That headset, predating threadless, was 
fantastic in its design and operation.  Once the sourcing of those parts 
became rare I sold my Mavic mechanic's toolkit to Jeremy at 
http://www.tearsforgears.com (On the front page, the picture for Mavic 
tools is the box. All those technical drawings on mylar pages too.)

Shifting systems have always been moving targets when trying to pin down 
the sweet spot. Indexed shifting has an impulse that the shifter generates 
and transmits down the cable to which the derailleur responds. The 
different brands do so in different manners which vary where the stress 
peaks are and also how those pieces are able to tolerate being cheapened 
for budget groups. The chain and cog teeth interaction once the shift 
impulse is initiated is the final interaction. Shimano shifting seems to 
produce the highest spike of impulse energy for indexed shifts and I feel 
like over the years it is a key source of the wear that befalls their "out 
of the box" shifting first. These sudden yanks of cable have left so many 
rear derailleurs with accumulated play in the parallelogram pivots, as that 
thread about STX pointed out. Anyone have a strong feeling as to the 
durability of your shift cables in a particular brand's drivetrain? 

There is nothing better than a sweet functioning component, even more so if 
light too. I have to say I have been confounded by such components when 
they don't meet the expectations that either the expense or effort to 
provide for them in a build. Bottom of the top third hub offerings from 
Shimano have done well for me and I think no ill thoughts about their 
retirement. I was about to send a set back to PJW for a new build and he 
instead offered a new in box set of XTs that made postage and three days 
time evaporate any goodwill my previous set possessed. Wouldn't do that 
with some more boutique hubset.

Contrary to the sweet spot components are the let downs; the hanger queens, 
the part so many talk well about in magazines, those that just went "snap" 
before you really even had a chance to break them in. That is the list on 
the inside of the toolbox lid, written in red crayon by quivering hand and 
the spots of dried sweat. That is a more emotional list that veers from 
rational at time. 105 STI lives there for me. A catastrophic pawl failure 
of the front shifter of our tandem within the first 1000 miles of use, 
halfway into a very nice, very hilly ride, that began six hours away from 
home. The first time I'd experienced the rendered uselessness of an 
otherwise functional bike. 

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Friday, November 28, 2014 11:32:41 AM UTC-5, Anton Tutter wrote:
>
> Andy, there are certainly exceptions like you point out, where a premium 
> is put on weight savings over durability.  And it's generally accepted that 
> a $20 Shimano UN55 bottom bracket will last as long as an expensive 
> weight-weenie titanium bottom bracket, and operate just as smoothly. But 
> it's also very well known that certain high-end hubs can last forever, 
> compared to low end hubs with lower quality bearing races and seals that 
> wear out quickly.
>
> My favorite components are those that use replaceable cartridge bearings. 
> This way, you can just replace the bearings if they go bad rather than 
> sacrifice an expensive component.  I had a very expensive titanium Phil BB 
> go bad after it sat in rusty water that built up inside my frame.  It 
> ruined the bearings.  Phil replaced the bearings for me for a nominal fee, 
> and as a result, I had a new BB again. If it had been a lower end, 
> non-serviceable BB, it would have had to been chucked.
>
> Anton
>
>
> On Friday, November 28, 2014 11:09:35 AM UTC-5, ascpgh wrote:
>>
>> The exception to " But for things with complex moving parts like STI 
>> shifters, or things with bearings like hubs and bottom brackets, more 
>> expensive is generally better." is when those expenses bring about lighter 
>> material use that doesn't necessarily play well with the intended use of a 
>> group. 
>>
>> On a long ago cross country ride by four riders, one bar end shifted 8 
>> speed one Ultegra STI and two Dura Ace STI drivetrains, one group proved to 
>> need attention and demonstrated wear first. It was the DA STI. By 
>> mid-continent the shifters were ill-behaving and each rider required a 
>> replacement. C

[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Benedikt]

That's interesting to hear only negative comments about Phil Wood. I always 
thought those would be bomb proof. I'm looking for something with some 
color in the hubs and that was a candidate. I guess I'll stick with the 
White Industries and save some money too!

On Thursday, November 27, 2014 4:54:55 PM UTC-8, Benedikt wrote:
>
> Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs, cranks, 
> cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better then the entry level? What is 
> it that drives the price up? Is it the performance or just the material 
> it's made up of/weight?
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Joe Bernard]

I think its place in the lineup (Shimano) matters much more if you're 
looking for brifters. I had a bike with Sora STI a couple years ago and the 
shifting action seemed heavy, with big swings of the levers to finish 
shifts. I don't have personal experience with them, but I imagine the 
105/Ultegra/D-A stuff is noticeably crisper. 

On the other hand, if you're a prototypical Riv-person using Silver 
friction shifters, I'm not sure any part above 105 is necessary, and below 
that is acceptable, too. A friction shifter will push just about any 
derailer to a cog or chainring without much bother, so my choices tend to 
come down to which part looks nicest within my budget. 

Joe "not quite ready for Altus with huge pulleys yet" Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Friday, November 28, 2014 3:54:42 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

>  On 11/28/2014 06:44 PM, Mark Reimer wrote:
>  
> Agreed regarding Phil wood. I have four sets of hubs. Two single speed 
> sets which are flawless, and two road setups, one disc and one non disc. 
> Both have pawl slippage problems. I'm just rebuilt my five month old rear 
> disc hub for the third time with lighter oil after it continually slipped 
> in the cold. For $500 I expect a hub to be perfect. Phil customer service 
> has always been a joke for me over the years. 
>
>
> I had the ratchet mechanism on a Phil cassette hub self destruct on a ride 
> a couple of years ago with a sound very much like what happens when you try 
> to shift a manual transmission without using the clutch.  The LBS sent the 
> wheel back for repair -- evidently a pawl broke and in the process 
> destroyed the rotor ring -- altogether something like a $300 repair.  The 
> repaired wheel was as loud as a fairground wheel of fortune when coasting 
> and had so much internal friction if you backpedaled (e.g., while cleaning 
> the chain) the chain would droop down to the chainstay.  It also made 
> clanking noises from time to time, with what felt like internal skipping 
> from time to time.  The LBS tried three times to fix whatever's going on, 
> but without any success.
>
> I finally took that wheel out of service and had a new wheel built on a 
> Shimano 105 hub.  I should have done that in the first place.
>
> I have one other Phil wheel in service; this one had gobs of end play.  
> When it finally gives up the ghost, I'm going to replace it with a Shimano 
> as well.
>  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/28/2014 06:44 PM, Mark Reimer wrote:
Agreed regarding Phil wood. I have four sets of hubs. Two single speed 
sets which are flawless, and two road setups, one disc and one non 
disc. Both have pawl slippage problems. I'm just rebuilt my five month 
old rear disc hub for the third time with lighter oil after it 
continually slipped in the cold. For $500 I expect a hub to be 
perfect. Phil customer service has always been a joke for me over the 
years.


I had the ratchet mechanism on a Phil cassette hub self destruct on a 
ride a couple of years ago with a sound very much like what happens when 
you try to shift a manual transmission without using the clutch.  The 
LBS sent the wheel back for repair -- evidently a pawl broke and in the 
process destroyed the rotor ring -- altogether something like a $300 
repair.  The repaired wheel was as loud as a fairground wheel of fortune 
when coasting and had so much internal friction if you backpedaled 
(e.g., while cleaning the chain) the chain would droop down to the 
chainstay.  It also made clanking noises from time to time, with what 
felt like internal skipping from time to time.  The LBS tried three 
times to fix whatever's going on, but without any success.


I finally took that wheel out of service and had a new wheel built on a 
Shimano 105 hub.  I should have done that in the first place.


I have one other Phil wheel in service; this one had gobs of end play.  
When it finally gives up the ghost, I'm going to replace it with a 
Shimano as well.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Mark Reimer]

Agreed regarding Phil wood. I have four sets of hubs. Two single speed sets 
which are flawless, and two road setups, one disc and one non disc. Both have 
pawl slippage problems. I'm just rebuilt my five month old rear disc hub for 
the third time with lighter oil after it continually slipped in the cold. For 
$500 I expect a hub to be perfect. Phil customer service has always been a joke 
for me over the years. 



> On Nov 28, 2014, at 5:01 PM, Mark R.  wrote:
> 
> I have had better service out of more expensive components.  All my Dura Ace 
> stuff has been flawless, but it has been 7700 DT shifters or bar cons.  
> Brakes, bearings, etc, perfecto!
> 
> All my high end Campy stuff has been fantastic, lasts forever, blah blah blah 
> blah.
> 
> That said, when I built up my new LIghthouse this year, I wanted silver 
> components and opted for Athena 11 ergo levers (shifting a nine speed Dura 
> Ace drive train).  Worked great, shifters lasted 1500 miles!  I guess this 
> was a known issue with the powershift levers, replaced them with carbon 
> Chorus levers, they are getting better the more I ride them (about 2500 miles 
> or so).  I find them breaking in, not breaking down, and the only thing I 
> don't like is the color.  But I am over that.
> 
> Campy did warranty the broken Athena lever, so I will keep them as spares.  I 
> have run 10's of thousands of miles on Chorus nine and Record nine levers, 
> they just kept shifting!  Once every few years I would replace a spring (5 
> bucks) in the shifter and it was good for another 10 k or more miles.  This 
> was on the early rounded hood levers, not the later ones, nor the early 
> pointy hood ones.
> 
> I never had much luck with Phil stuff, so I don't put my money there.  
> 
> Mark
> www.youtube.com/howtostretch
> SDCA
> 
>> On Friday, November 28, 2014 2:31:54 PM UTC-8, Mark Reimer wrote:
>> I
>> It's a fact that STI shifters are more prone to falling out of alignment 
>> than bar end shifters, but I also have a Campy Athena 11spd group that I 
>> didn't need to trim once in three years... That group is hands down the best 
>> performing and most reliable group I've ever seen. Plus, it comes in SILVER! 
>> The hoods are incredibly comfortable, it shifts so smoothly (even under 
>> load), the brakes are excellent, and the chains last forever. It is 
>> definitely more expensive up front, but in the long run my 105 groups have 
>> cost me much more money in replacement cables, chains, housing, and other 
>> parts.
> 
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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Mark R.]

I have had better service out of more expensive components.  All my Dura 
Ace stuff has been flawless, but it has been 7700 DT shifters or bar cons.  
Brakes, bearings, etc, perfecto!

All my high end Campy stuff has been fantastic, lasts forever, blah blah 
blah blah.

That said, when I built up my new LIghthouse this year, I wanted silver 
components and opted for Athena 11 ergo levers (shifting a nine speed Dura 
Ace drive train).  Worked great, shifters lasted 1500 miles!  I guess this 
was a known issue with the powershift levers, replaced them with carbon 
Chorus levers, they are getting better the more I ride them (about 2500 
miles or so).  I find them breaking in, not breaking down, and the only 
thing I don't like is the color.  But I am over that.

Campy did warranty the broken Athena lever, so I will keep them as spares.  
I have run 10's of thousands of miles on Chorus nine and Record nine 
levers, they just kept shifting!  Once every few years I would replace a 
spring (5 bucks) in the shifter and it was good for another 10 k or more 
miles.  This was on the early rounded hood levers, not the later ones, nor 
the early pointy hood ones.

I never had much luck with Phil stuff, so I don't put my money there.  

Mark
www.youtube.com/howtostretch
SDCA

On Friday, November 28, 2014 2:31:54 PM UTC-8, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> I
> It's a fact that STI shifters are more prone to falling out of alignment 
> than bar end shifters, but I also have a Campy Athena 11spd group that I 
> didn't need to trim once in three years... That group is hands down the 
> best performing and most reliable group I've ever seen. Plus, it comes in 
> SILVER! The hoods are incredibly comfortable, it shifts so smoothly (even 
> under load), the brakes are excellent, and the chains last forever. It is 
> definitely more expensive up front, but in the long run my 105 groups have 
> cost me much more money in replacement cables, chains, housing, and other 
> parts.
>
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Mark Reimer]

I've had two Shimano 105 groupsets (9spd and 10spd), both of which were 
used on cross bikes. Great price and excellent value, though not truly a 
set it and forget it kinda thing..

I'd ride that bike on gravel road rides, nasty weather and of course racing 
cross. Everything on the 105 group worked well expect for the shifters, 
which seems to constantly need attention. I'd need to shift up two clicks 
then back down one just to pull the derailleur over sometimes. I think it 
was caused by grime getting into the cables/housing, not really the 
shifters themselves though, but it was annoying that I always seemed to be 
the only person suffereing this problem on group rides, where others would 
be riding Ultegra, Dura Ace, or SRAM. If i put new cables and housing on 
I'd get perfect shifting for several weeks, then start hitting the snags 
again.

It's a fact that STI shifters are more prone to falling out of alignment 
than bar end shifters, but I also have a Campy Athena 11spd group that I 
didn't need to trim once in three years... That group is hands down the 
best performing and most reliable group I've ever seen. Plus, it comes in 
SILVER! The hoods are incredibly comfortable, it shifts so smoothly (even 
under load), the brakes are excellent, and the chains last forever. It is 
definitely more expensive up front, but in the long run my 105 groups have 
cost me much more money in replacement cables, chains, housing, and other 
parts.



On Friday, November 28, 2014 3:29:59 PM UTC-6, Anton Tutter wrote:
>
> Yes, White Ind. hubs use cartridge bearings!
>
>
>
> On Friday, November 28, 2014 3:34:09 PM UTC-5, Benedikt wrote:
>>
>> Anton I completely agree with you when it comes to Phil Wood hubs and the 
>> replacable bearings. I believe it's a cartridge bearing. As a side note, 
>> does anyone know if White Industries hubs use replacable cartridge 
>> bearings? I love the MUSA factor.
>>
>> On Thursday, November 27, 2014 4:54:55 PM UTC-8, Benedikt wrote:
>>>
>>> Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs, 
>>> cranks, cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better then the entry level? 
>>> What is it that drives the price up? Is it the performance or just the 
>>> material it's made up of/weight?
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Anton Tutter]

Yes, White Ind. hubs use cartridge bearings!



On Friday, November 28, 2014 3:34:09 PM UTC-5, Benedikt wrote:
>
> Anton I completely agree with you when it comes to Phil Wood hubs and the 
> replacable bearings. I believe it's a cartridge bearing. As a side note, 
> does anyone know if White Industries hubs use replacable cartridge 
> bearings? I love the MUSA factor.
>
> On Thursday, November 27, 2014 4:54:55 PM UTC-8, Benedikt wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs, cranks, 
>> cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better then the entry level? What is 
>> it that drives the price up? Is it the performance or just the material 
>> it's made up of/weight?
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Benedikt]

Dreaming about building up a new bike is what started this discussion. I've 
been using bar end shifters (friction) for 4 years now and over 25,000 
miles of riding (most commuting) I've noticed I can easily get 10,000 miles 
out of a cheap hub or BB. I had a Shimano Sora shifter fail (before the bar 
ends) after about 10,000 miles. I think that's good mileage for the price 
and I never had a problem with shifting, however I'm not used to anything 
more costly then that.

On Thursday, November 27, 2014 4:54:55 PM UTC-8, Benedikt wrote:
>
> Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs, cranks, 
> cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better then the entry level? What is 
> it that drives the price up? Is it the performance or just the material 
> it's made up of/weight?
>

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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Benedikt]

Anton I completely agree with you when it comes to Phil Wood hubs and the 
replacable bearings. I believe it's a cartridge bearing. As a side note, 
does anyone know if White Industries hubs use replacable cartridge 
bearings? I love the MUSA factor.

On Thursday, November 27, 2014 4:54:55 PM UTC-8, Benedikt wrote:
>
> Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs, cranks, 
> cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better then the entry level? What is 
> it that drives the price up? Is it the performance or just the material 
> it's made up of/weight?
>

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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Anton Tutter]

Just curious-- what are some of your "sweetspot" components? For me, 
Shimano 105 hits the mark for most of the group product line.



On Friday, November 28, 2014 1:04:29 PM UTC-5, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> Yes, I think expensive components are better than entry level components. 
> As Anton says, it's not a linear progression. Ever since I was a teenager, 
> I've tried to hit the Sweet Spot on the curve, right before price starts 
> doubling, and quality starts incrementing. This is person explains the 
> idea: http://blog.yayateahouse.co.nz/2013/02/16/finding-the-sweet-spot/. 
> For me, ignoring everything below "decent" and above "quite good" saves 
> hours of time and mental effort, in addition to money. I don't need to be 
> chasing the dragon on bike parts, coffee, or whiskey. 
>
> Philip 
> www.biketinker.com

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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Anton Tutter]

Andy, there are certainly exceptions like you point out, where a premium is 
put on weight savings over durability.  And it's generally accepted that a 
$20 Shimano UN55 bottom bracket will last as long as an expensive 
weight-weenie titanium bottom bracket, and operate just as smoothly. But 
it's also very well known that certain high-end hubs can last forever, 
compared to low end hubs with lower quality bearing races and seals that 
wear out quickly.

My favorite components are those that use replaceable cartridge bearings. 
This way, you can just replace the bearings if they go bad rather than 
sacrifice an expensive component.  I had a very expensive titanium Phil BB 
go bad after it sat in rusty water that built up inside my frame.  It 
ruined the bearings.  Phil replaced the bearings for me for a nominal fee, 
and as a result, I had a new BB again. If it had been a lower end, 
non-serviceable BB, it would have had to been chucked.

Anton


On Friday, November 28, 2014 11:09:35 AM UTC-5, ascpgh wrote:
>
> The exception to " But for things with complex moving parts like STI 
> shifters, or things with bearings like hubs and bottom brackets, more 
> expensive is generally better." is when those expenses bring about lighter 
> material use that doesn't necessarily play well with the intended use of a 
> group. 
>
> On a long ago cross country ride by four riders, one bar end shifted 8 
> speed one Ultegra STI and two Dura Ace STI drivetrains, one group proved to 
> need attention and demonstrated wear first. It was the DA STI. By 
> mid-continent the shifters were ill-behaving and each rider required a 
> replacement. Collective wear, be it from dust in the air, water-carried 
> grit or the water itself in the form of rain, automobile road spray or 
> mind-numbing mile after mile of other bicycle wheel spray, took its toll on 
> the DA but not the Ultegra. I continue to use the same bar ends from that 
> ride. 
>
> The expense of an aluminum pivot pin over a CrMo or stainless one may 
> weigh less, if that is the intent, but it sure will wear down faster. The 
> "more expensive" moving parts may not be particularly better if durability 
> is the primary objective. By durable, I think about my commuter bike and 
> its mid-level gear that sucks up the abuse of its use like the super fly, 
> high-end stuff most likely cannot.
>
> Andy Cheatham
> Pittsburgh
>
>
> On Friday, November 28, 2014 8:50:25 AM UTC-5, Anton Tutter wrote:
>>
>> You've opened a can of worms with that question, as I'm sure you'll 
>> receive a bevy of opinions.
>>
>> In my experience, low-end groups (Shimano Acera, Sora) not only perform 
>> sub-par but also are much heavier and don't last as long. As you move up 
>> the food chain, they get lighter, operate with more precision, and last 
>> longer due various reasons, such as better bearings, more expensive 
>> materials, etc.  But the climb up the food chain isn't always linear, and 
>> some component levels around the middle of the pack stand out as exemplary 
>> given their price-point and marketing placement. For example, Shimano 105 
>> has always impressed me, giving 90% of the quality of Dura Ace but at 30% 
>> of the price. I'm sure similar comparisons can be made with SRAM and 
>> Campagnolo groups, but I don't have first hand experience current 
>> iterations of those brands' groups.
>>
>> And then there's also the trickle-down effect. Component manufacturers 
>> will put the results of their latest technologies on their expensive 
>> components, and when they become proven over time and cheaper to 
>> manufacturer, they trickle down into the lower groups. Think technologies 
>> like STI. Originally introduced in the Dura Ace group 25 years ago, now 
>> even entry level road groups use the technology. So a low-end group today 
>> may be as good as or better than a group one step up from 10-20 years ago. 
>>  Sometimes I have a tough time discerning the quality difference of newer 
>> Sora components and older 105/ultegra components.
>>
>> With certain components like cassettes and cranks, where there are 
>> essentially no moving parts, the only thing the higher group level gets you 
>> is weight savings. But for things with complex moving parts like STI 
>> shifters, or things with bearings like hubs and bottom brackets, more 
>> expensive is generally better.
>>
>> Anton
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, November 27, 2014 7:54:55 PM UTC-5, Benedikt wrote:
>>>
>>> Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs, 
>>> cranks, cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better then the entry level? 
>>> What is it that drives the price up? Is it the performance or just the 
>>> material it's made up of/weight?
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[ascpgh]

The exception to " But for things with complex moving parts like STI 
shifters, or things with bearings like hubs and bottom brackets, more 
expensive is generally better." is when those expenses bring about lighter 
material use that doesn't necessarily play well with the intended use of a 
group. 

On a long ago cross country ride by four riders, one bar end shifted 8 
speed one Ultegra STI and two Dura Ace STI drivetrains, one group proved to 
need attention and demonstrated wear first. It was the DA STI. By 
mid-continent the shifters were ill-behaving and each rider required a 
replacement. Collective wear, be it from dust in the air, water-carried 
grit or the water itself in the form of rain, automobile road spray or 
mind-numbing mile after mile of other bicycle wheel spray, took its toll on 
the DA but not the Ultegra. I continue to use the same bar ends from that 
ride. 

The expense of an aluminum pivot pin over a CrMo or stainless one may weigh 
less, if that is the intent, but it sure will wear down faster. The "more 
expensive" moving parts may not be particularly better if durability is the 
primary objective. By durable, I think about my commuter bike and its 
mid-level gear that sucks up the abuse of its use like the super fly, 
high-end stuff most likely cannot.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh


On Friday, November 28, 2014 8:50:25 AM UTC-5, Anton Tutter wrote:
>
> You've opened a can of worms with that question, as I'm sure you'll 
> receive a bevy of opinions.
>
> In my experience, low-end groups (Shimano Acera, Sora) not only perform 
> sub-par but also are much heavier and don't last as long. As you move up 
> the food chain, they get lighter, operate with more precision, and last 
> longer due various reasons, such as better bearings, more expensive 
> materials, etc.  But the climb up the food chain isn't always linear, and 
> some component levels around the middle of the pack stand out as exemplary 
> given their price-point and marketing placement. For example, Shimano 105 
> has always impressed me, giving 90% of the quality of Dura Ace but at 30% 
> of the price. I'm sure similar comparisons can be made with SRAM and 
> Campagnolo groups, but I don't have first hand experience current 
> iterations of those brands' groups.
>
> And then there's also the trickle-down effect. Component manufacturers 
> will put the results of their latest technologies on their expensive 
> components, and when they become proven over time and cheaper to 
> manufacturer, they trickle down into the lower groups. Think technologies 
> like STI. Originally introduced in the Dura Ace group 25 years ago, now 
> even entry level road groups use the technology. So a low-end group today 
> may be as good as or better than a group one step up from 10-20 years ago. 
>  Sometimes I have a tough time discerning the quality difference of newer 
> Sora components and older 105/ultegra components.
>
> With certain components like cassettes and cranks, where there are 
> essentially no moving parts, the only thing the higher group level gets you 
> is weight savings. But for things with complex moving parts like STI 
> shifters, or things with bearings like hubs and bottom brackets, more 
> expensive is generally better.
>
> Anton
>
>
> On Thursday, November 27, 2014 7:54:55 PM UTC-5, Benedikt wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs, cranks, 
>> cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better then the entry level? What is 
>> it that drives the price up? Is it the performance or just the material 
>> it's made up of/weight?
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Anton Tutter]

You've opened a can of worms with that question, as I'm sure you'll receive 
a bevy of opinions.

In my experience, low-end groups (Shimano Acera, Sora) not only perform 
sub-par but also are much heavier and don't last as long. As you move up 
the food chain, they get lighter, operate with more precision, and last 
longer due various reasons, such as better bearings, more expensive 
materials, etc.  But the climb up the food chain isn't always linear, and 
some component levels around the middle of the pack stand out as exemplary 
given their price-point and marketing placement. For example, Shimano 105 
has always impressed me, giving 90% of the quality of Dura Ace but at 30% 
of the price. I'm sure similar comparisons can be made with SRAM and 
Campagnolo groups, but I don't have first hand experience current 
iterations of those brands' groups.

And then there's also the trickle-down effect. Component manufacturers will 
put the results of their latest technologies on their expensive components, 
and when they become proven over time and cheaper to manufacturer, they 
trickle down into the lower groups. Think technologies like STI. Originally 
introduced in the Dura Ace group 25 years ago, now even entry level road 
groups use the technology. So a low-end group today may be as good as or 
better than a group one step up from 10-20 years ago.  Sometimes I have a 
tough time discerning the quality difference of newer Sora components and 
older 105/ultegra components.

With certain components like cassettes and cranks, where there are 
essentially no moving parts, the only thing the higher group level gets you 
is weight savings. But for things with complex moving parts like STI 
shifters, or things with bearings like hubs and bottom brackets, more 
expensive is generally better.

Anton


On Thursday, November 27, 2014 7:54:55 PM UTC-5, Benedikt wrote:
>
> Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs, cranks, 
> cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better then the entry level? What is 
> it that drives the price up? Is it the performance or just the material 
> it's made up of/weight?
>

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