[RBW] Re: OT: Someone else is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally
PB: People invested trillions of dollars in syndicated bad mortgage bundles a few years ago. Hardly meant it was a good idea. Imagine it is not that hard to track down $70 k worth of suckers out there. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: OT: Someone else is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally
If that became the new wheel paradigm the material of the "loops" would become the performance increment and wheel snobbery would be talk of "flex to failure", stiffness and weight. I don't see how one could produce predictable performance results with that design; the rims seem so much a structural element they would become dead or deadening to the resulting wheel (to anyone having put together a nice set of spoked wheels). Not so much as the semi disc wheels like the trispoke; the serious meat of BSNYC-posted photos of decorated pedestrian, non-biker, "biker cred" cruising bikes. I hope that it is loop wheels there next, not spoked ones. My dad's first attempt to teach me to ride a bike was on a little rig with solid (airless) tires of a particularly evil squarish profile that had me elevate onto a hard squirrelly knife edge in every lean or steer moment. My four year old vocabulary failed to provide me the adequate descriptive tools to communicate why I was having such a hard time and was bleeding so much. The next weekend came a bike I could barely mount but could pedal once on the saddle; risky for a parent unsure of their kid's riding potential, but it had real pneumatic tires and I rode as if I was born on that bike (a purple Kent). I'll be on 36° spoked wheels and pneumatic tires until eBay no longer lists them if alternative designs catch hold. Andy Cheatham PIttsburgh On Friday, May 3, 2013 1:30:55 PM UTC-4, pb wrote: > > > On Thursday, May 2, 2013 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, Jan Heine wrote: >> >> Airless tires have so much resistance that you'd rather change a flat >> every 10 miles! We tested a set of airless tires for our latest tire test >> (Bicycle Quarterly Spring 2013), and found that they used 50% more power >> than a good racing tire. Maintaining 20 mph was very hard work. And in >> corners, they squirmed so much that it was really disconcerting. > > > Jan, all due respect, I think you're still completely missing the point. > I doubt that many riders on the Dahon which is the current target of this > work are trying to maintain 20 mph. Additionally, the small diameter of > the 20" wheel reduces rotating weight to an extent which might somewhat > offset rolling resistance. (No doubt I'll be mathematically > proven completely wrong about that, but consider that urban trips are > heavily stop-start-stop-start.) If one considers the likely trip distance > and trip type of an urban Dahon, utility effectiveness may trump other > factors. > > On another subject -- I have to give the inventor credit for a campaign > which has exceeded its investment target. The kickstarter is pushing > $US70,000, more than 10% over its target, with two weeks yet to go. > Apparently a number of people think this idea has merit. Even if it > ultimately fails, I sincerely congratulate Mr. Pearce on his efforts. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: OT: Someone else is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally
Depends on what one means by slow. Best Regards, R Zeidler Prime Mover On May 3, 2013, at 3:48 PM, Jan Heine wrote: > Sorry that there is a misunderstanding. I don't judge the merits of the > invention until I have seen and ridden it. It is well possible that 15 years > from now, we all ride on those wheels. (Grant predicted/lamented in an early > Rivendell Reader that spoked wheels would become obsolete, and he may be > proven right after all.) > > I only noted that it was unfortunate that the inventor suggested that his > invention eliminated the need of "wide and slow" tires, when wide tires > aren't slow. Of course, this is a common misperception, and we shouldn't > judge the inventor's knowledge of bicycle technology based on that one > statement. > > I also suggested that anybody who is talks favorably about airless tires > first should try them. I have ridden them for little over a mile, and I > wouldn't want to do it again! At lower speeds, the added resistance will be > even more noticeable, because air resistance is reduced, and rolling > resistance makes up most of the resistance the cyclist has to overcome. Most > of all, since the tires don't hold their shape, the handling is best > described as "wayward." > > Jan Heine > Editor > Bicycle Quarterly > www.bikequarterly.com > > Follow our blog at www.janheine.com > > On Friday, May 3, 2013 10:30:55 AM UTC-7, pb wrote: >> >> >> On Thursday, May 2, 2013 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, Jan Heine wrote: >>> >>> Airless tires have so much resistance that you'd rather change a flat every >>> 10 miles! We tested a set of airless tires for our latest tire test >>> (Bicycle Quarterly Spring 2013), and found that they used 50% more power >>> than a good racing tire. Maintaining 20 mph was very hard work. And in >>> corners, they squirmed so much that it was really disconcerting. >> >> Jan, all due respect, I think you're still completely missing the point. I >> doubt that many riders on the Dahon which is the current target of this work >> are trying to maintain 20 mph. Additionally, the small diameter of the 20" >> wheel reduces rotating weight to an extent which might somewhat offset >> rolling resistance. (No doubt I'll be mathematically proven completely >> wrong about that, but consider that urban trips are heavily >> stop-start-stop-start.) If one considers the likely trip distance and trip >> type of an urban Dahon, utility effectiveness may trump other factors. >> >> On another subject -- I have to give the inventor credit for a campaign >> which has exceeded its investment target. The kickstarter is pushing >> $US70,000, more than 10% over its target, with two weeks yet to go. >> Apparently a number of people think this idea has merit. Even if it >> ultimately fails, I sincerely congratulate Mr. Pearce on his efforts. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: OT: Someone else is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally
Sorry that there is a misunderstanding. I don't judge the merits of the invention until I have seen and ridden it. It is well possible that 15 years from now, we all ride on those wheels. (Grant predicted/lamented in an early Rivendell Reader that spoked wheels would become obsolete, and he may be proven right after all.) I only noted that it was unfortunate that the inventor suggested that his invention eliminated the need of "wide and slow" tires, when wide tires aren't slow. Of course, this is a common misperception, and we shouldn't judge the inventor's knowledge of bicycle technology based on that one statement. I also suggested that anybody who is talks favorably about airless tires first should try them. I have ridden them for little over a mile, and I wouldn't want to do it again! At lower speeds, the added resistance will be even more noticeable, because air resistance is reduced, and rolling resistance makes up most of the resistance the cyclist has to overcome. Most of all, since the tires don't hold their shape, the handling is best described as "wayward." Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at www.janheine.com On Friday, May 3, 2013 10:30:55 AM UTC-7, pb wrote: > > > On Thursday, May 2, 2013 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, Jan Heine wrote: >> >> Airless tires have so much resistance that you'd rather change a flat >> every 10 miles! We tested a set of airless tires for our latest tire test >> (Bicycle Quarterly Spring 2013), and found that they used 50% more power >> than a good racing tire. Maintaining 20 mph was very hard work. And in >> corners, they squirmed so much that it was really disconcerting. > > > Jan, all due respect, I think you're still completely missing the point. > I doubt that many riders on the Dahon which is the current target of this > work are trying to maintain 20 mph. Additionally, the small diameter of > the 20" wheel reduces rotating weight to an extent which might somewhat > offset rolling resistance. (No doubt I'll be mathematically > proven completely wrong about that, but consider that urban trips are > heavily stop-start-stop-start.) If one considers the likely trip distance > and trip type of an urban Dahon, utility effectiveness may trump other > factors. > > On another subject -- I have to give the inventor credit for a campaign > which has exceeded its investment target. The kickstarter is pushing > $US70,000, more than 10% over its target, with two weeks yet to go. > Apparently a number of people think this idea has merit. Even if it > ultimately fails, I sincerely congratulate Mr. Pearce on his efforts. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: OT: Someone else is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally
On Thursday, May 2, 2013 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, Jan Heine wrote: > > Airless tires have so much resistance that you'd rather change a flat > every 10 miles! We tested a set of airless tires for our latest tire test > (Bicycle Quarterly Spring 2013), and found that they used 50% more power > than a good racing tire. Maintaining 20 mph was very hard work. And in > corners, they squirmed so much that it was really disconcerting. Jan, all due respect, I think you're still completely missing the point. I doubt that many riders on the Dahon which is the current target of this work are trying to maintain 20 mph. Additionally, the small diameter of the 20" wheel reduces rotating weight to an extent which might somewhat offset rolling resistance. (No doubt I'll be mathematically proven completely wrong about that, but consider that urban trips are heavily stop-start-stop-start.) If one considers the likely trip distance and trip type of an urban Dahon, utility effectiveness may trump other factors. On another subject -- I have to give the inventor credit for a campaign which has exceeded its investment target. The kickstarter is pushing $US70,000, more than 10% over its target, with two weeks yet to go. Apparently a number of people think this idea has merit. Even if it ultimately fails, I sincerely congratulate Mr. Pearce on his efforts. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: OT: Someone else is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally
Small tires (Brompton is 349 bsd) wear out fast because of the number of rotations to cover a given distance. Schwalbe makes the Marathon Plus in this size, which is pretty close to being a solid tire! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: OT: Someone else is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally
my nephew and his wife crossed Australia on Bromptons with their two babies in trail. He finished with a destroyed tire wrapped in duck tape (and a lot of pumping). He could have probably used an airless tire. On Friday, May 3, 2013 4:42:40 AM UTC-5, bobish wrote: > > > Making fun of this idea from the point of view of a cyclist who uses > 700c-ish wheels is to miss the point, and the inventor seems to have a > pretty good understanding and appreciation of how bicycles work. > > Agreed. Assuming this works beyond just in theory (my main concern is > energy loss while pedaling), this could have applications in small wheeled > upright bikes, recumbents/trikes, etc. > > Perry > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: OT: Someone else is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally
> Making fun of this idea from the point of view of a cyclist who uses 700c-ish > wheels is to miss the point, and the inventor seems to have a pretty good > understanding and appreciation of how bicycles work. Agreed. Assuming this works beyond just in theory (my main concern is energy loss while pedaling), this could have applications in small wheeled upright bikes, recumbents/trikes, etc. Perry -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: OT: Someone else is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally
A very slight correction. From my own admittedly limited experience, air less tires fell no worse than: Thick belted tire with Heavy, stiff sidewalls, lined with Heavy Mr Tuffys, with 500 gram thorn-proof tubes laced with A pint of Slime. An airless tire can actually feel better than this -- harsher, but with slightly less of the "riding in cold molasses" feeling. Patrick Moore, developing his hand strength by installing this combo in many, many different wheels at the LBS every Thursday. On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Jan Heine wrote: > Airless tires have so much resistance that you'd rather change a flat > every 10 miles! We tested a set of airless tires for our latest tire test > (Bicycle Quarterly Spring 2013), and found that they used 50% more power > than a good racing tire. Maintaining 20 mph was very hard work. And in > corners, they squirmed so much that it was really disconcerting. With all > that, the lack of comfort was the smallest problem... > > Pneumatic tires were the biggest advance in cycling, perhaps even bigger > than attaching cranks to the front wheel! > > Jan Heine -- http://resumespecialties.com/index.html [email protected] Albuquerque, NM -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: OT: Someone else is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally
Airless tires have so much resistance that you'd rather change a flat every 10 miles! We tested a set of airless tires for our latest tire test (Bicycle Quarterly Spring 2013), and found that they used 50% more power than a good racing tire. Maintaining 20 mph was very hard work. And in corners, they squirmed so much that it was really disconcerting. With all that, the lack of comfort was the smallest problem... Pneumatic tires were the biggest advance in cycling, perhaps even bigger than attaching cranks to the front wheel! Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ On Thursday, May 2, 2013 5:54:58 PM UTC-7, pb wrote: > > For an urban utility/runaround bike with small diameter wheels, this > strikes me as a very clever idea. I was waiting to discover that the tires > were non-pneumatic, which might make the whole assembly even more > attractive, as there would be no more flats. I wonder if the loops smooth > things out enough to be used with solid tires. > Making fun of this idea from the point of view of a cyclist who uses > 700c-ish wheels is to miss the point, and the inventor seems to have a > pretty good understanding and appreciation of how bicycles work. > > pb > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] Re: OT: Someone else is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally
Changing a tube is a 5 minute job, I doubt you could go to your lbs with a broken "loop thing" hahaha. Some ideas should stay just that. On May 2, 2013 8:55 PM, "pb" wrote: > For an urban utility/runaround bike with small diameter wheels, this > strikes me as a very clever idea. I was waiting to discover that the tires > were non-pneumatic, which might make the whole assembly even more > attractive, as there would be no more flats. I wonder if the loops smooth > things out enough to be used with solid tires. > Making fun of this idea from the point of view of a cyclist who uses > 700c-ish wheels is to miss the point, and the inventor seems to have a > pretty good understanding and appreciation of how bicycles work. > > pb > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: OT: Someone else is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally
For an urban utility/runaround bike with small diameter wheels, this strikes me as a very clever idea. I was waiting to discover that the tires were non-pneumatic, which might make the whole assembly even more attractive, as there would be no more flats. I wonder if the loops smooth things out enough to be used with solid tires. Making fun of this idea from the point of view of a cyclist who uses 700c-ish wheels is to miss the point, and the inventor seems to have a pretty good understanding and appreciation of how bicycles work. pb -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: OT: Someone else is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally
I cannot help but laugh at the sentence: *"So you don’t need to rely on fat (and sluggish) tyres to cushion your ride."* Obviously, the inventor isn't aware of recent research – in part by *Bicycle Quarterly* – that has shown that wider tires don't roll any slower than narrow ones. Hence even professional racers adopting wider tires at lower pressures. Generally, classic bicycles really are highly evolved and very complex, interdependent machines. You cannot change just one parameter (say a tubing diameter) without affecting everything else. The biomechanic interactions of rider and bike are not yet well-understood, and the traditional solutions evolved through trial and error, which is hard to beat for systems you only partially understand. Even the best modern carbon and ti bikes have a balance of the frame tube stiffness and feel that is very similar to a classic steel bike. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: OT: Someone else is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally
things that don't need reinventing: fly fishing, bicycle, brooks saddle On Thursday, May 2, 2013 11:57:39 AM UTC-5, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: > > Always interesting to see "outside the box" cycling innovations, usually, > I think, from people who don't have much knowledge or experience with > bicycles as they are now. > > We've had one "inventive" customer, who for several years has been trying > to develop a new kind of human powered vehicle. Knowing little about > bicycles, he frequently goes to great lengths with machine shops and such > trying to solve problems that have been solved in the bicycle world for > many decades. Numerous times he's come in to the shop to ask our opinion on > some elaborate contraption he's assembled at great effort and > expense...only to be dismayed as we dig in the parts box and pull out an > inexpensive, widely available, and relatively elegant component that serves > the same purpose. He's a great character, but I think he'd have saved a lot > of money and time if he'd started by working a couple summers in bike shops. > > On Thursday, May 2, 2013 10:34:31 AM UTC-5, Scot Brooks wrote: >> >> It's always nice to see people trying to innovate, but I doubt Jim Thill, >> Peter White, or Rich Lesnik will be too worried about this. >> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1205277475/loopwheels-for-a-smoother-more-comfortable-bicycle > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: OT: Someone else is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally
Always interesting to see "outside the box" cycling innovations, usually, I think, from people who don't have much knowledge or experience with bicycles as they are now. We've had one "inventive" customer, who for several years has been trying to develop a new kind of human powered vehicle. Knowing little about bicycles, he frequently goes to great lengths with machine shops and such trying to solve problems that have been solved in the bicycle world for many decades. Numerous times he's come in to the shop to ask our opinion on some elaborate contraption he's assembled at great effort and expense...only to be dismayed as we dig in the parts box and pull out an inexpensive, widely available, and relatively elegant component that serves the same purpose. He's a great character, but I think he'd have saved a lot of money and time if he'd started by working a couple summers in bike shops. On Thursday, May 2, 2013 10:34:31 AM UTC-5, Scot Brooks wrote: > > It's always nice to see people trying to innovate, but I doubt Jim Thill, > Peter White, or Rich Lesnik will be too worried about this. > http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1205277475/loopwheels-for-a-smoother-more-comfortable-bicycle -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
[RBW] Re: OT: Someone else is trying to reinvent the wheel, literally
The whole thing looks a bit loopy. dougP On Thursday, May 2, 2013 8:34:31 AM UTC-7, Scot Brooks wrote: > > It's always nice to see people trying to innovate, but I doubt Jim Thill, > Peter White, or Rich Lesnik will be too worried about this. > http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1205277475/loopwheels-for-a-smoother-more-comfortable-bicycle -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
