Re: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Ron Mc]

I rode 65 miles this weekend on my Raceface Atlas platforms and Merrill 
proterras with no kind of pain whatsoever - did take a pretty good nap, 
though.  





On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 5:13:59 PM UTC-5, Chris Chen wrote:
>
> The MKS touring is a gorgeous pedal but it's very narrow. I've got grip 
> kings and VP-001 or Vice pedals and they're great. I rode one summer with 
> birkenstocks and MKS touring pedals and while it was fun it was hell on my 
> feet :)
>
> On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Evan E. 
> > wrote:
>
>> Just to pile on and to address Lungimsam's original question:
>>
>> - If the pedal is a long and broad platform (such as Thin Gripster or RMX 
>> Sneaker Pedal), then the shoe and its sole rigidity matters very little.
>>
>> - If the pedal has narrow/limited points of contact (such as the MKS 
>> Touring Pedal), then the shoe matters more and, for me at least, a stiffer 
>> sole helps my feet stay comfortable, even on rides of 40+ miles.
>>
>> Evan E.
>> SF, CA
>>
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>
>
>
> -- 
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>  

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Re: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Chris Chen]

The MKS touring is a gorgeous pedal but it's very narrow. I've got grip
kings and VP-001 or Vice pedals and they're great. I rode one summer with
birkenstocks and MKS touring pedals and while it was fun it was hell on my
feet :)

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Evan E.  wrote:

> Just to pile on and to address Lungimsam's original question:
>
> - If the pedal is a long and broad platform (such as Thin Gripster or RMX
> Sneaker Pedal), then the shoe and its sole rigidity matters very little.
>
> - If the pedal has narrow/limited points of contact (such as the MKS
> Touring Pedal), then the shoe matters more and, for me at least, a stiffer
> sole helps my feet stay comfortable, even on rides of 40+ miles.
>
> Evan E.
> SF, CA
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Evan E.]

Just to pile on and to address Lungimsam's original question:

- If the pedal is a long and broad platform (such as Thin Gripster or RMX 
Sneaker Pedal), then the shoe and its sole rigidity matters very little.

- If the pedal has narrow/limited points of contact (such as the MKS 
Touring Pedal), then the shoe matters more and, for me at least, a stiffer 
sole helps my feet stay comfortable, even on rides of 40+ miles.

Evan E.
SF, CA

>

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Re: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Matthew J]

> the King Cages folks make an unusual kind of cage/toe clip that is REALLY 
comfortable.  Pic here on my A.N.T. Truss Bike

Definitely nice. I managed to break one though.  Stopped by a stop light at 
a busy Chicago intersection with my right foot on the street.  When the 
light changed trying to start as fast as possible I managed to step on top 
of the clip rather than in it.  Darned if it did not break completely at 
the curve.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[John]

Oh man! Those are classy clips!

John

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 11:10:17 AM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
>
>  A little off-topic, but in addition to the BG half clips, the King Cages 
> folks make an unusual kind of cage/toe clip that is REALLY comfortable.  
> Pic here on my A.N.T. Truss Bike.  
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/8088486740/in/set-72157630285823166
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:* rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com  [mailto:
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com ] *On Behalf Of *Peter Adler
> *Sent:* Friday, May 01, 2015 2:03 PM
> *To:* rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
> *Subject:* Re: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that 
> count?
>
>

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RE: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

A little off-topic, but in addition to the BG half clips, the King Cages folks 
make an unusual kind of cage/toe clip that is REALLY comfortable.  Pic here on 
my A.N.T. Truss Bike.  
https://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/8088486740/in/set-72157630285823166


From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Adler
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 2:03 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

MKS does a similar Lyotard-Berthet knockoff, as the Urban Platform Ezy Superior.

http://www.mkspedal.com/English/catalog4.htm

Both the superelegant WI version and the MKS version are much bigger than the 
original Lyotard pedals, which are all but unusable for anyone with feet bigger 
than about Size 7, unless you have toeclips. MKS also does a wire-cage 
half-clip similar to Bruce Gordon's (my recollection of the timeline is that 
MKS had them before Bruce did). Outside Outfitters has the pedals for 
$38<http://www.outsideoutfitters.com/ps-27010-195-mks-urban-platform-pedals.aspx>
 and the toeclips for 
$21<http://www.outsideoutfitters.com/ps-27009-195-mks-stainless-steel-toe-clips-straps.aspx>,
 so it's a fairly inexpensive experiment.

Personally, I gave up on Lyotard Berthets for anything except retro-fetish 
reasons; they're too small for my 10.5 Amurrrican feet, and they're made out of 
a wussy soft steel - the kicktabs bend if you look at them crosseyed. The 
modern pedals are a lot more rugged.

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 9:59:12 AM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
Probably meant to be White Industries Urban Pedal, a very nice update of an old 
Lyotard pedal.  Link here:  http://www.whiteind.com/pedals/
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Re: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Peter Adler]

MKS does a similar Lyotard-Berthet knockoff, as the Urban Platform Ezy 
Superior.

http://www.mkspedal.com/English/catalog4.htm

Both the superelegant WI version and the MKS version are much bigger than 
the original Lyotard pedals, which are all but unusable for anyone with 
feet bigger than about Size 7, unless you have toeclips. MKS also does a 
wire-cage half-clip similar to Bruce Gordon's (my recollection of the 
timeline is that MKS had them before Bruce did). Outside Outfitters has the 
pedals 
for $38 
 
and the toeclips for $21 
,
 
so it's a fairly inexpensive experiment.

Personally, I gave up on Lyotard Berthets for anything except retro-fetish 
reasons; they're too small for my 10.5 Amurrrican feet, and they're made 
out of a wussy soft steel - the kicktabs bend if you look at them 
crosseyed. The modern pedals are a lot more rugged.

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 9:59:12 AM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
>
>  Probably meant to be White Industries Urban Pedal, a very nice update of 
> an old Lyotard pedal.  Link here:  http://www.whiteind.com/pedals/
>

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RE: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

And +1 for the BG clips, too – the White pedal with the BG half clips is a 
terrific combo

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Mc
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 1:07 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

great-looking pedals for clips, and fast ingress

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 12:03:21 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
Oh!  Of course, silly me. +1 on the White's, great pedals, especially with BG's 
clips.

John

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 9:59:12 AM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
Probably meant to be White Industries Urban Pedal, a very nice update of an old 
Lyotard pedal.  Link here:  http://www.whiteind.com/pedals/

I have them on two bikes.  They’re great pedals if you like toe clips (I do, 
for some bikes).  Not so good without the clips.

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Re: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Ron Mc]

great-looking pedals for clips, and fast ingress

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 12:03:21 PM UTC-5, John wrote:
>
> Oh!  Of course, silly me. +1 on the White's, great pedals, especially with 
> BG's clips.
>
> John 
>
> On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 9:59:12 AM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
>>
>>  Probably meant to be White Industries Urban Pedal, a very nice update 
>> of an old Lyotard pedal.  Link here:  http://www.whiteind.com/pedals/
>>
>>  
>>
>> I have them on two bikes.  They’re great pedals if you like toe clips (I 
>> do, for some bikes).  Not so good without the clips.
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[John]

Oh!  Of course, silly me. +1 on the White's, great pedals, especially with 
BG's clips.

John 

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 9:59:12 AM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
>
>  Probably meant to be White Industries Urban Pedal, a very nice update of 
> an old Lyotard pedal.  Link here:  http://www.whiteind.com/pedals/
>
>  
>
> I have them on two bikes.  They’re great pedals if you like toe clips (I 
> do, for some bikes).  Not so good without the clips.
>
>

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RE: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Probably meant to be White Industries Urban Pedal, a very nice update of an old 
Lyotard pedal.  Link here:  http://www.whiteind.com/pedals/

I have them on two bikes.  They’re great pedals if you like toe clips (I do, 
for some bikes).  Not so good without the clips.

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 12:56 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

I'm curious.  What is a Paul's Urban pedal?

I can't find a reference through the Googling.

Thanks,

John

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 3:31:12 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:


The second thing I do is vary the pedals I use.  On my Ram & tandem I use 
Speedplay Frogs (I know clipless) and on the Saluki I use the Paul's Urban 
pedal.  That gives me some variety of contact point.


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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[John]

I'm curious.  What is a Paul's Urban pedal? 

I can't find a reference through the Googling.

Thanks,

John

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 3:31:12 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
>
>
> The second thing I do is vary the pedals I use.  On my Ram & tandem I use 
> Speedplay Frogs (I know clipless) and on the Saluki I use the Paul's Urban 
> pedal.  That gives me some variety of contact point.
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Deacon Patrick]

Nor I in my bare feet! Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 9:27:27 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> all I know is my daughter can't pedal toe clips in her wrestling shoes
>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Ron Mc]

all I know is my daughter can't pedal toe clips in her wrestling shoes

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 10:20:57 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Och, nae worries here, mate! I took it as a good cut to the bone Scottish 
> joke (admittedly "good," cut to the bone," and "Scottish" are a wee bit 
> redundant). Grin.
>
> Omegas help the foot function properly on a pedal. Without them one needs 
> specialized, accommodative footbinders, er, footwear. Grin.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Deacon Patrick]

Och, nae worries here, mate! I took it as a good cut to the bone Scottish 
joke (admittedly "good," cut to the bone," and "Scottish" are a wee bit 
redundant). Grin.

Omegas help the foot function properly on a pedal. Without them one needs 
specialized, accommodative footbinders, er, footwear. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 9:05:06 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> and I was funning with your shoe aversion, I apologize if you were 
> offended - what works for you may not work for me.  
>
> Had a cute implied food nazi joke with the guy at the grocery store 
> yesterday.  He asked me what the Omega was for.  I told him I don't know, 
> but my daughter eats it.  
>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Ron Mc]

and I was funning with your shoe aversion, I apologize if you were offended 
- what works for you may not work for me.  

Had a cute implied food nazi joke with the guy at the grocery store 
yesterday.  He asked me what the Omega was for.  I told him I don't know, 
but my daughter eats it.  


On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 9:49:44 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> My apologies, Ron. Thank you for clarifying.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 8:43:42 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> Deac, don't quote me out of context - I was specifically addressing 
>> circulation pinch, as described by our friend.  
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Deacon Patrick]

My apologies, Ron. Thank you for clarifying.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 8:43:42 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> Deac, don't quote me out of context - I was specifically addressing 
> circulation pinch, as described by our friend.  
>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Ron Mc]

Deac, don't quote me out of context - I was specifically addressing 
circulation pinch, as described by our friend.  

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 9:05:43 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> I think we're in violent agreement on a number of things, Ron. Platform 
> pedals make sense, and it is a mechanical issue. I think the mechanical 
> issue includes the proper function and strength of the foot, and you 
> believe external support is the way to go. That is the main point of 
> divergence that I see in what we are saying.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 5:34:02 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> This is not a stamina problem.  It's a mechanical problem.
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Ron Mc]

not exactly, because different things work for different people.  I agree 
with back pain dialing in reach and saddle height is very important.  The 
way we lean on the bars as we get older wasn't the way we rode when we were 
young.  
And saddle height could be a factor in circulation pinch on the pedals. 
 Our friend doesn't have the appearance of pain - it's the real thing, and 
we're throwing out ideas to help him sort it out.  Somebody else may have a 
contradictory solution to their personal problem.  

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 9:24:33 AM UTC-5, Garth wrote:
>
>
>  If fun appears to cause pain Ron, then it's not True Joy  !Ever ! ! 
>
> For something to be True, it must be absolute without exception or 
> contradiction or any "other", ever lasting without beginning or ending, and 
> wholly independent . 
>
>
>
> On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 8:15:10 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> He's talking about having fun in spite of the fun causing Pain.  I think 
>> solving the pain is a high priority.  But I agree he is on the wrong pedal. 
>>  
>>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[David Banzer]

Agreed - the MKS touring pedals are designed to use with toe clips. They 
work fine as a city bike pedal for short trips, but for me anything more 
than that led to foot pain with soft soled shoes. I switched to Grip Kings, 
and now to VP-001s and have no pain at all.
David
Chicago

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 8:51:01 AM UTC-5, Ginz wrote:
>
> An inexpensive, wider pedal is the first thing to try.  "Cage" style 
> pedals are never going to be as comfortable with their sharp edges.  I've 
> banned them from my bikes and only ride Grip Kings or similar.
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Garth]

 If fun appears to cause pain Ron, then it's not True Joy  !Ever ! ! 

For something to be True, it must be absolute without exception or 
contradiction or any "other", ever lasting without beginning or ending, and 
wholly independent . 



On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 8:15:10 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> He's talking about having fun in spite of the fun causing Pain.  I think 
> solving the pain is a high priority.  But I agree he is on the wrong pedal. 
>  
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Deacon Patrick]

I think we're in violent agreement on a number of things, Ron. Platform 
pedals make sense, and it is a mechanical issue. I think the mechanical 
issue includes the proper function and strength of the foot, and you 
believe external support is the way to go. That is the main point of 
divergence that I see in what we are saying.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 5:34:02 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> This is not a stamina problem.  It's a mechanical problem.
>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Ginz]

An inexpensive, wider pedal is the first thing to try.  "Cage" style pedals 
are never going to be as comfortable with their sharp edges.  I've banned 
them from my bikes and only ride Grip Kings or similar.


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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Jayme Frye]

Someone mentioned here or on I-Bob with regard to shoes for platform pedals 
using track and field throwing or shot put shoes. Having retired a pair of 
5 Ten Dirt Bag shoes I took a chance on a pair of reasonably priced Asics 
throwing shows ($45.00). The guy at the shoe store was a bit suspicious of 
a skinny 40 something trying on shot put shoes. :-) The shoes have a smooth 
outsole that is grippy enough on VP-01 pedals. The toe box is wider that 
typical athletic shoes and they are effectively zero drop. They are not 
minimalist though and the outsole is firm and does not flex easily. The 
plus to this is pedaling in an extreme foot forward position (arch over 
pedal spindle) is comfortable. 

Jayme 

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:09:58 PM UTC-5, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> Trying to solve my sore foot conundrum on longer rides and the more 
> research I do, the more conflicting info I get about whether or not 
> the shoe matters, or the pedal surface does (this is for platforms, not 
> clipless pedals).
>
> *Weigh in and tell me if you think that with the right kind of platform, 
> you can ride any street shoe you want, no matter how good or atrocious the 
> sole is.*
> *Or, if its the shoe that counts.*
>
> Interested to know if there really is an answer to this before deciding to 
> sink money into either shoes or pedals first. Experimenting with bike 
> componentry gets expensive fast.
>
> In Just Ride, the author says its the pedal that counts only. Any footwear 
> works with a good platform pedal.
>
> *No need to mention the pedal/shoe as others are weighing in on that on 
> another thread here.*
> *No need to mention strength of feet, as we have already covered that 
> issue, and that is a different matter for debate.*
>
> I remember riding the last three centuries on my MKS Touring pedals. All 
> with different shoes.
> The first pair left me hurting (Old Nike Sneakers).
> The second pair left me hurting (LLBean Mocks).
> The third pair didn't hurt at all on that third century, but now they do 
> when I ride with them (New Nike sneakers).
> I do get other minor foot complaints outside of century riding. So I think 
> a pedal/shoe change is in order.
>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Deacon Patrick]

I agree that getting a good, full sized platform pedal is an essential 
first step, regardless of whether you decide to "sing hymns of holistic 
harmony and a regimen at doctor deac's foot gym." Grin. (What a great line 
Ron! I love it!)

Podiatrists said my feet were weak since I was 10 and put me in orthotics. 
My feet got weaker. I often had rolled or twisted ankles. In my late 30's I 
shifted to barefoot/minimalist. It took months and even years to recover 
proper foot function and strength, but I noticed benefits right away and 
after three months I was 85% to where I am now. I no longer have flat feet 
or need orthotics. Something is very wrong with the belief that our feet 
are week, poorly designed, and need cushioning and support to fix them. 

With abandon,
Patrick (I'm not a doctor, I don't play one on TV or the internet, I am an 
N=1 experiment that may be helpful for others)

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

['Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I've never thought about strengthening my feet but it certainly makes sense. I 
know that strengthening my core and upper body helps my cycling, and the core 
work especially has eliminated back pain so I don't know why you wouldn't get 
similar benefits from trying to strengthen your feet. Also, if a lot of the 
problem is in the ball of your foot, perhaps lowering your saddle a few mm so 
that you could shift the foot forward a bit and center the pedal spindle more 
toward your arch may help. I had achilles issues last year on my 300k brevet, 
lowered the seat around 6mm and the pain disappeared. I know it's a bummer when 
doing what you love to do hurts so I'm wishing a quick, cheap and effective 
solution for you Michael.

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Ron Mc]

adding to correct fit, Justin, in the right shoes, you should be able to 
splay your toes - the same feeling as stretching your fingers as wide as 
you can, only inside your shoes

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 7:59:19 AM UTC-5, Justin August wrote:
>
> Make sure the shoe you have is wide enough. My feet get wider as the day 
> goes on and sometimes if I take my shoes off and walk around the classroom 
> for a while (my classroom is... Interesting) when I put my shoes back on 
> they feel right in the ball of the foot. I try to buy the widest, flattest 
> sneakers I can with the softest uppers for this reason. I'm too vain to 
> wear minimalist shoes all the time but I'm sure my New Balance Minimus 
> wouldn't have the the same problem. 
>
> Just a thought, especially because many athletic shoes are shockingly 
> narrow. 
>
> -J

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Ron Mc]

and again, Justin, that all depends on feet - mine are 13AAA with high 
arches (and no, they're not out of shape).  I like my Merrills, and when 
I'm not in proterras I'm in Merrill sandals

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 7:59:19 AM UTC-5, Justin August wrote:
>
> Make sure the shoe you have is wide enough. My feet get wider as the day 
> goes on and sometimes if I take my shoes off and walk around the classroom 
> for a while (my classroom is... Interesting) when I put my shoes back on 
> they feel right in the ball of the foot. I try to buy the widest, flattest 
> sneakers I can with the softest uppers for this reason. I'm too vain to 
> wear minimalist shoes all the time but I'm sure my New Balance Minimus 
> wouldn't have the the same problem. 
>
> Just a thought, especially because many athletic shoes are shockingly 
> narrow. 
>
> -J

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Justin August]

Make sure the shoe you have is wide enough. My feet get wider as the day goes 
on and sometimes if I take my shoes off and walk around the classroom for a 
while (my classroom is... Interesting) when I put my shoes back on they feel 
right in the ball of the foot. I try to buy the widest, flattest sneakers I can 
with the softest uppers for this reason. I'm too vain to wear minimalist shoes 
all the time but I'm sure my New Balance Minimus wouldn't have the the same 
problem. 

Just a thought, especially because many athletic shoes are shockingly narrow.

-J

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Ron Mc]

pss - some people Deserve good guitars, good fishing poles and good pedals. 
 



>>> Both matter , as you ride with both of them together .   MKS touring 
>>> pedals have such a small platform which may be fine for some, but not for 
>>> others .   The VP-001 and similar Vice(much easier pin adjustment are a 
>>> larger , more squared platform and can be had for 50 something dollars from 
>>> say, Amazon.  And then there are even larger platforms of course but that's 
>>> another subject .
>>>
>>> The most important factor above all of this though is , are you having 
>>> fun ?How funny as adults we think it's all about the equipment, as if 
>>> that makes us happy(it doesn't) .   Watch a happy child at play  .  . .  .  
>>> it's all about the being of joy in the moment. 
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Ron Mc]

ps - we all do this as kids, or we wouldn't be here.  When something you do 
releases your kid, you become contagious at it.  



The best times I've ever had fishing have been filming shows for national 
tv.  All because of the company.  They're just like me.  We're contagious - 
we turn into kids when we fish.  


On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 7:15:10 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> He's talking about having fun in spite of the fun causing Pain.  I think 
> solving the pain is a high priority.  But I agree he is on the wrong pedal. 
>  
>
> On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 7:07:24 AM UTC-5, Garth wrote:
>>
>>
>> Both matter , as you ride with both of them together .   MKS touring 
>> pedals have such a small platform which may be fine for some, but not for 
>> others .   The VP-001 and similar Vice(much easier pin adjustment are a 
>> larger , more squared platform and can be had for 50 something dollars from 
>> say, Amazon.  And then there are even larger platforms of course but that's 
>> another subject .
>>
>> The most important factor above all of this though is , are you having 
>> fun ?How funny as adults we think it's all about the equipment, as if 
>> that makes us happy(it doesn't) .   Watch a happy child at play  .  . .  .  
>> it's all about the being of joy in the moment. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Ron Mc]

He's talking about having fun in spite of the fun causing Pain.  I think 
solving the pain is a high priority.  But I agree he is on the wrong pedal. 
 

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 7:07:24 AM UTC-5, Garth wrote:
>
>
> Both matter , as you ride with both of them together .   MKS touring 
> pedals have such a small platform which may be fine for some, but not for 
> others .   The VP-001 and similar Vice(much easier pin adjustment are a 
> larger , more squared platform and can be had for 50 something dollars from 
> say, Amazon.  And then there are even larger platforms of course but that's 
> another subject .
>
> The most important factor above all of this though is , are you having fun 
> ?How funny as adults we think it's all about the equipment, as if that 
> makes us happy(it doesn't) .   Watch a happy child at play  .  . .  .  it's 
> all about the being of joy in the moment. 
>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Garth]

Both matter , as you ride with both of them together .   MKS touring pedals 
have such a small platform which may be fine for some, but not for others 
.   The VP-001 and similar Vice(much easier pin adjustment are a larger , 
more squared platform and can be had for 50 something dollars from say, 
Amazon.  And then there are even larger platforms of course but that's 
another subject .

The most important factor above all of this though is , are you having fun 
?How funny as adults we think it's all about the equipment, as if that 
makes us happy(it doesn't) .   Watch a happy child at play  .  . .  .  it's 
all about the being of joy in the moment. 

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[islaysteve]

Sorry, I was addressing the OP, who I believe is also a Michael.  But Michael H 
states my case in more detail re podiatrists.  Cheers,
Steve

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Ron Mc]

Singing hymns of holistic harmony and a regimen at doctor deac's foot gym 
is not necessary.  This is not a stamina problem.  It's a mechanical 
problem.  Good pedals and shoe combination is important, but numbness is 
always pinched circulation.  Ever ride with your wrists bent improperly 
backwards and had your fingers go numb?  Something similar is happening in 
your feet.  You're probably making pedal contact in a bad point, and 
possibly bending your ankle in a bad way.  This would definitely be 
corrected by pedals.  

Ever get off your bike at the end of a 50 mile ride and can't get the blood 
to your head?  It's real, your blood is in your legs and feet.  Your feet 
swell when you ride. Your problem might be as simple as lacing your shoes 
too tight. . I have to lace my Chrome Kirsk every time with my clips, but I 
lace them loosely.  I bend my ankles all the way backwards and if I feel 
strain, I loosen them all over.  For my platforms, I haven't laced my 
Proterras in 6 months.  They stay loosely laced with the laces folded under 
and I slip them on and off.  

As far as shoes and platform pedals go, whatever shoes you can walk in all 
day will also ride all day.  I hate the Chrome for walking, but the shank 
is everything in the clips (as would be with clipless).  Again clips and 
clipless load with ball of your foot.  With the right platforms, you can 
load from your toe to your heel.  I like to center the load on my arch, but 
move it around frequently from ball to heel.  

As far as pedals go, you would be hard pressed to beat the Thin Gripsters 
(VP-001) that Riv sells.  They also have the Best price on this pedal on 
the net.  

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 5:31:17 AM UTC-5, islaysteve wrote:
>
> Michael, it may be time to consult an expert, ie a good podiatrist.  If 
> you're willing to go to Olney MD I have one, email me off list.  A good one 
> can diagnose your problem and likely provide a solution, possibly 
> orthotics. 
> Steve

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Michael Hechmer]

Thanks, but I have already been down both the custom  orthodics & surgery 
route.

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 6:31:17 AM UTC-4, islaysteve wrote:
>
> Michael, it may be time to consult an expert, ie a good podiatrist.  If 
> you're willing to go to Olney MD I have one, email me off list.  A good one 
> can diagnose your problem and likely provide a solution, possibly 
> orthotics. 
> Steve

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[islaysteve]

Michael, it may be time to consult an expert, ie a good podiatrist.  If you're 
willing to go to Olney MD I have one, email me off list.  A good one can 
diagnose your problem and likely provide a solution, possibly orthotics.
Steve

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Michael Hechmer]

I would suggest you begin with a visit to a good podiatrist.  Find one with 
good experience and a practice that doesn't focus on lots of surgery.  

I have pain which I think is similar to yours, burning in the ball.  Some 
years ago I had a cyst removed there which had caused me a great deal of 
pain, but it has never fully recovered.  I switched from a surgery focused 
podiatrist to one content with less invasive modalities and that has 
helped.  In my case he looked at my foot and said, "Your problem is that 
you're not fat enough."  I liked him right away, but unfortunately he was 
only referring to my feet.  He gave me a script for a pain ointment (which 
unwisely I didn't fill) and encouraged me to get good, cushioned sport 
inserts, and to replace them regularly.  That has helped.  I have a follow 
up appointment with him this month.

The second thing I do is vary the pedals I use.  On my Ram & tandem I use 
Speedplay Frogs (I know clipless) and on the Saluki I use the Paul's Urban 
pedal.  That gives me some variety of contact point.

For shoes, the worst combination ever has been a pair of minimalist 
sneakers and the Pauls.  Now I stay with shoes that have relatively rigid 
soles - Keen Austins & Keen Commuters, both of which can be used with or 
without clips.  I also like the Keen Austins regular version for walking 
around because that has also been a source of foot pain.  I suspect I am 
paying the price for a career as a hospital chaplain who walked the halls 
night & day.

Good luck with this.

Michael

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 10:09:58 PM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> Trying to solve my sore foot conundrum on longer rides and the more 
> research I do, the more conflicting info I get about whether or not 
> the shoe matters, or the pedal surface does (this is for platforms, not 
> clipless pedals).
>
> *Weigh in and tell me if you think that with the right kind of platform, 
> you can ride any street shoe you want, no matter how good or atrocious the 
> sole is.*
> *Or, if its the shoe that counts.*
>
> Interested to know if there really is an answer to this before deciding to 
> sink money into either shoes or pedals first. Experimenting with bike 
> componentry gets expensive fast.
>
> In Just Ride, the author says its the pedal that counts only. Any footwear 
> works with a good platform pedal.
>
> *No need to mention the pedal/shoe as others are weighing in on that on 
> another thread here.*
> *No need to mention strength of feet, as we have already covered that 
> issue, and that is a different matter for debate.*
>
> I remember riding the last three centuries on my MKS Touring pedals. All 
> with different shoes.
> The first pair left me hurting (Old Nike Sneakers).
> The second pair left me hurting (LLBean Mocks).
> The third pair didn't hurt at all on that third century, but now they do 
> when I ride with them (New Nike sneakers).
> I do get other minor foot complaints outside of century riding. So I think 
> a pedal/shoe change is in order.
>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Clayton.sf]

my feet are happiest in some 510 freeriders vxi and vp vice or Canfield 
crampons. 
The keep feet on the pedal and provide enough protection from it to ride double 
centuries without any foot pain.  I walk in minimalist footwear or barefoot To 
keep feet strong, but on the bike I like a sturdier sole. For rides under 60 
miles any comfy shoe works. Even flip flops. For mountainbiking or longer 
distances and for best foot comfort a large platform plus sturdier sole is 
awesomest for me

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Mike Shaljian]

Just buy Sabots or Heiruspecs. Also, +1 on what Patrick said about 
strengthening your feet. I would highly recommend walking and riding in 
minimalist shoes, as I've mentioned on the other thread. Build strength in your 
feet and avoid repetitive stress injuries with a free and stable platform, 
it'll all be good. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[cyclotourist]

Yep, that's the idea! I know where you can get some MKS Sneaker Pedals
cheap! $20 shipped to your door!

On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 8:11 PM, Lungimsam  wrote:

> Yes, the pedal change over the shoe change seems like a better option to
> try first, because, if successful, then I can wear any shoe and not be tied
> to a single shoe for cycling.
>
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David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Lungimsam]

Yes, the pedal change over the shoe change seems like a better option to 
try first, because, if successful, then I can wear any shoe and not be tied 
to a single shoe for cycling.

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Re: [RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[cyclotourist]

Soft sole shoes need a wider/flatter surfaced pedal to distribute
downforce. Stiff soled shoes can get by with a tiny SPD or Eggbeater type
contact. Sounds like you have a soft sole and two narrow/linear points of
contact (MKS Touring). Either wear firmer-soled shoes, or get a platform
pedal. I'd vote for pedal change over the shoe change.

On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 7:49 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> I agree with Ron that your foot may be flexing too much, but disagree that
> means you need to increase support. I believe it means you need to decrease
> support and intentionally strengthen your foot.
>
> The arch of the foot is a windlass mechanism. When running it absorbs
> energy on landing, stores it through the foot plant, and returns a healthy
> portion of that energy back in the push off. It's quite amazing. But if the
> foot muscles are weak, it may not be able to hold the "lock" or "push off"
> position, which I experience as the best position for forefoot pedaling. On
> the pedal, the foot feels locked and like it does when pushing off when
> running. This differs from a midfoot pedal position which most closely
> resembles the storage/foot plant part of the running stride.
>
> I would suggest you work on strengthening your feet, listening to them as
> to how much is too much. Run also, if you can. Add milage as you feet are
> comfortable. The alternative is that you add support and your feet get
> weaker because of it.
>
> As to the toe tingly, are your shoes wide enough or do the push your big
> toe inward? You may have to really pay attention, because most shoes are
> not foot shaped, so most people are used to having shoes deform their feet
> and not noticing (I sure was).
>
> Wear shoes (ideally minimalist, Zem Terra series are excellent) when you
> need to ( for cold, rock and root safety, fine if it's all the time). But
> don't wear shoes that will further weaken or deform your feet (that have
> support, arent' foot shaped, have a raised heel, or cushioning).
>
> Have fun playing with what works!
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
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David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Deacon Patrick]

I agree with Ron that your foot may be flexing too much, but disagree that 
means you need to increase support. I believe it means you need to decrease 
support and intentionally strengthen your foot.

The arch of the foot is a windlass mechanism. When running it absorbs 
energy on landing, stores it through the foot plant, and returns a healthy 
portion of that energy back in the push off. It's quite amazing. But if the 
foot muscles are weak, it may not be able to hold the "lock" or "push off" 
position, which I experience as the best position for forefoot pedaling. On 
the pedal, the foot feels locked and like it does when pushing off when 
running. This differs from a midfoot pedal position which most closely 
resembles the storage/foot plant part of the running stride.

I would suggest you work on strengthening your feet, listening to them as 
to how much is too much. Run also, if you can. Add milage as you feet are 
comfortable. The alternative is that you add support and your feet get 
weaker because of it.

As to the toe tingly, are your shoes wide enough or do the push your big 
toe inward? You may have to really pay attention, because most shoes are 
not foot shaped, so most people are used to having shoes deform their feet 
and not noticing (I sure was).

Wear shoes (ideally minimalist, Zem Terra series are excellent) when you 
need to ( for cold, rock and root safety, fine if it's all the time). But 
don't wear shoes that will further weaken or deform your feet (that have 
support, arent' foot shaped, have a raised heel, or cushioning).

Have fun playing with what works!

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[sameness]

With the right kind of platform, you can ride any street shoe you want, no 
matter how good or atrocious the sole is.

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Lungimsam]

Foot pain from riding, especially on rides more than 40 miles resulting in 
ball of foot puffiness (not see-able, but feels like it when walking after 
riding), and tip of big toe pain, with a little tingly line down the side 
of big toe.

I don't think its good to keep punishing the dogs and its time to try new 
pedals and/or shoes.
I use MKS Touring and sneakers right now.

I opened the other thread on "What do Rivendell Riders use for cycling 
shoes (not clipless)", in which the issue was touched upon.

I know your take: Strong feet +Vice pedals + bare feet/minimalist shoe like 
coverings = excellent riding!
But alas, I am not as hardy in cold weather riding, so I need to use shoes. 
I do go shoeless inside the house, though and have for the last 18(?) 
years. So I guess I am living 1/2-time barefoot.

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Ron Mc]

if you have a sore foot, your arch is flexing too much - some of the energy 
you want to go into the pedals is going into straining your foot.  Sounds 
like you may need a good arch support.  With toe clips or clipless you load 
the ball of your foot and a bike shoe with a shank is everything to avoid 
pain.  An advantage of platforms is you can usually get away with just 
about any shoe, because you can move your foot around on the pedal.  I have 
long ice-skate feet and really like longer platforms.  

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:09:58 PM UTC-5, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> Trying to solve my sore foot conundrum on longer rides and the more 
> research I do, the more conflicting info I get about whether or not 
> the shoe matters, or the pedal surface does (this is for platforms, not 
> clipless pedals).
>
> *Weigh in and tell me if you think that with the right kind of platform, 
> you can ride any street shoe you want, no matter how good or atrocious the 
> sole is.*
> *Or, if its the shoe that counts.*
>
> Interested to know if there really is an answer to this before deciding to 
> sink money into either shoes or pedals first. Experimenting with bike 
> componentry gets expensive fast.
>
> In Just Ride, the author says its the pedal that counts only. Any footwear 
> works with a good platform pedal.
>
> *No need to mention the pedal/shoe as others are weighing in on that on 
> another thread here.*
> *No need to mention strength of feet, as we have already covered that 
> issue, and that is a different matter for debate.*
>
> I remember riding the last three centuries on my MKS Touring pedals. All 
> with different shoes.
> The first pair left me hurting (Old Nike Sneakers).
> The second pair left me hurting (LLBean Mocks).
> The third pair didn't hurt at all on that third century, but now they do 
> when I ride with them (New Nike sneakers).
> I do get other minor foot complaints outside of century riding. So I think 
> a pedal/shoe change is in order.
>

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[RBW] Re: So is it the pedals or is it the shoes that count?

[Deacon Patrick]

What is your foot conundrum?

With abandon,
Patrick

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