[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Mark Roland]

Yes, using a cable stop mounted at the fork is a very well known fix 
 
to eliminate the "bow" affect of a long cable run from the stem cable stop 
to the cable hanger that can be a source of judder. 

On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 4:26:58 PM UTC-4, Ashwath Akirekadu wrote:
>
> This might be tangential, but here's an observation I made recently while 
> playing with Canti brakes.  When the cable stop is mounted on the stem (ie 
> farther from the brakes), the setup becomes more squeak-prone as compared 
> to a fork mounted cable stop.   I was intrigued and changed around the 
> cable stop a couple of times without changing anything else with the 
> brakes.  It squeaked repeatedly more with stem-mounted.  I can probably 
> reduce the sound or even eliminate with better toe-in pad adjustment, but 
> the bottom line is fork-mounted cable stop setup is more forgiving.
>
> On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 at 13:03:06 UTC-7 S wrote:
>
>> I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":
>>
>> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
>> pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
>> hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
>> loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
>> degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>>
>> And the relative position of the straddle cable is key to making cantis 
>> work. So anything that affects that, including washers, is important. 
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles 
>>> on cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
>>> point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
>>> distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
>>> to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
>>> brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
>>> regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
>>> only changes:
>>>  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points to 
>>> each other and to the straddle hanger
>>>  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.
>>>
>>> Laing
>>> Delray Beach FL
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:

 Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work 
 well when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
 https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/

 I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big 
 difference. 

 I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or perceived 
 lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater mechanical 
 advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers than cantis or 
 calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to lighten up, I 
 nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no problems. I 
 find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
 On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:

> I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
> advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes 
> from 
> 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
> like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
> compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
> tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get 
> that 
> people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
> technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
> shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set 
> up 
> the way they are supposed to be set up.
>
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn 
> NY wrote:
>>
>> Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant 
>> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
>> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
>> compresses less as a result."
>> That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid 
>> Speed Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. 
>> Currently 
>> all set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I 
>> spent a lot on cantilevers was 1990
>> -Kai
>>
>> On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:
>>
>>> I will also throw 

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[S]

Actually, wow, re-reading it, I am misrepresenting that quote, I thought he 
was saying something different and overlayed my own point on top of it. 
That's what I get for responding too quickly. Ugh. I apologize. 
On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:08:41 PM UTC-7 S wrote:

> Anyway, I should have just linked Sheldon, whose descriptions and advice 
> are always the best: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:02:40 PM UTC-7 S wrote:
>
>> Maybe we are talking past each other or interpreting that passage 
>> differently? To me, the point is not about pad angle, but arm/wire angle. 
>> You want a good arm/wire angle at the point where the pad contacts the rim 
>> and washers can help you achieve this. For instance, keeping all else 
>> equal, if you use fewer washers, the pad starts farther away from the rim, 
>> hence the arm needs to swing farther in for the pad to contact the rim, 
>> increasing the arm/wire angle and decreasing mechanical advantage. I think 
>> this is easiest to visualize with V-brakes, as the wire remains horizontal. 
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 1:29:38 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>>
>>> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the 
>>> brake pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the 
>>> pad hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the 
>>> brake loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 
>>> 90 degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>>>
>>> Geometrically this is just plain false. The brake pads have spherical 
>>> washers that allow, within limits, the brake pad to be perpendicular to the 
>>> rim whether the arm is slanted in or out or perpendicular. The geometry of 
>>> the pad to the rim to the pivot point is constant. The pad is ALWAYS headed 
>>> in a downward arc relative to the rim because braze on pivot point is 
>>> outward of and below the rim surface, even when the brake pad post to brake 
>>> arm attachment point is moving up.
>>> Pretend the braze on pivot point is the hub of a very tiny wheel to the 
>>> right and down from the braking surface. As the tiny wheel rotates 
>>> counterclockwise, the spokes on the left rotate down as the spokes on the 
>>> right rotate up.
>>>
>>> Laing
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 4:03:06 PM UTC-4, S wrote:

 I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":

 "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the 
 brake pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the 
 pad hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the 
 brake loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 
 90 degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."

 And the relative position of the straddle cable is key to making cantis 
 work. So anything that affects that, including washers, is important. 
 On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:

> Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles 
> on cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
> point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
> distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
> to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or 
> even 
> brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
> regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
> only changes:
>  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points 
> to each other and to the straddle hanger
>  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.
>
> Laing
> Delray Beach FL
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>>
>> Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work 
>> well when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
>> https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/
>>
>> I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big 
>> difference. 
>>
>> I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or 
>> perceived lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater 
>> mechanical advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers 
>> than 
>> cantis or calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to 
>> lighten 
>> up, I nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no 
>> problems. I find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:
>>
>>> I question the notion that these attributes

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[lconley]

The article claims that the relative motion of the pad to the rim can be 
changed by altering the distance of the pad to the brake arm with washers. 
This is false. The relative motion of the pad to the rim is fixed by the 
fixed relative location of the brake pivot to the rim. It does not matter 
how many washers are used, nor whether the brake is a V-brake or a 
cantilever. The changes that result from adding or subtracting washers or 
changing from V-brake to cantilever are real, but they are not because the 
relative motion of the pad to the rim is changed, because it cannot changed 
without moving the braze on. 
The frame design/build can greatly alter the effectiveness of the brakes - 
the closer the brake pivot is to the rim, the greater the mechanical 
advantage can be, up to the point that the brake post bottoms out in the 
slot. 

Laing



On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 5:02:40 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>
> Maybe we are talking past each other or interpreting that passage 
> differently? To me, the point is not about pad angle, but arm/wire angle. 
> You want a good arm/wire angle at the point where the pad contacts the rim 
> and washers can help you achieve this. For instance, keeping all else 
> equal, if you use fewer washers, the pad starts farther away from the rim, 
> hence the arm needs to swing farther in for the pad to contact the rim, 
> increasing the arm/wire angle and decreasing mechanical advantage. I think 
> this is easiest to visualize with V-brakes, as the wire remains horizontal. 
>
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 1:29:38 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>
>> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
>> pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
>> hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
>> loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
>> degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>>
>> Geometrically this is just plain false. The brake pads have spherical 
>> washers that allow, within limits, the brake pad to be perpendicular to the 
>> rim whether the arm is slanted in or out or perpendicular. The geometry of 
>> the pad to the rim to the pivot point is constant. The pad is ALWAYS headed 
>> in a downward arc relative to the rim because braze on pivot point is 
>> outward of and below the rim surface, even when the brake pad post to brake 
>> arm attachment point is moving up.
>> Pretend the braze on pivot point is the hub of a very tiny wheel to the 
>> right and down from the braking surface. As the tiny wheel rotates 
>> counterclockwise, the spokes on the left rotate down as the spokes on the 
>> right rotate up.
>>
>> Laing
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 4:03:06 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":
>>>
>>> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the 
>>> brake pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the 
>>> pad hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the 
>>> brake loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 
>>> 90 degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>>>
>>> And the relative position of the straddle cable is key to making cantis 
>>> work. So anything that affects that, including washers, is important. 
>>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>>>
 Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles 
 on cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
 point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
 distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
 to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
 brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
 regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
 only changes:
  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points 
 to each other and to the straddle hanger
  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.

 Laing
 Delray Beach FL


 On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>
> Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work 
> well when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
> https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/
>
> I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big 
> difference. 
>
> I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or 
> perceived lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater 
> mechanical advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers 
> than 
> cantis or calipers. When I fir

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[S]

Anyway, I should have just linked Sheldon, whose descriptions and advice 
are always the best: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html


On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:02:40 PM UTC-7 S wrote:

> Maybe we are talking past each other or interpreting that passage 
> differently? To me, the point is not about pad angle, but arm/wire angle. 
> You want a good arm/wire angle at the point where the pad contacts the rim 
> and washers can help you achieve this. For instance, keeping all else 
> equal, if you use fewer washers, the pad starts farther away from the rim, 
> hence the arm needs to swing farther in for the pad to contact the rim, 
> increasing the arm/wire angle and decreasing mechanical advantage. I think 
> this is easiest to visualize with V-brakes, as the wire remains horizontal. 
>
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 1:29:38 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>
>> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
>> pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
>> hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
>> loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
>> degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>>
>> Geometrically this is just plain false. The brake pads have spherical 
>> washers that allow, within limits, the brake pad to be perpendicular to the 
>> rim whether the arm is slanted in or out or perpendicular. The geometry of 
>> the pad to the rim to the pivot point is constant. The pad is ALWAYS headed 
>> in a downward arc relative to the rim because braze on pivot point is 
>> outward of and below the rim surface, even when the brake pad post to brake 
>> arm attachment point is moving up.
>> Pretend the braze on pivot point is the hub of a very tiny wheel to the 
>> right and down from the braking surface. As the tiny wheel rotates 
>> counterclockwise, the spokes on the left rotate down as the spokes on the 
>> right rotate up.
>>
>> Laing
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 4:03:06 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":
>>>
>>> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the 
>>> brake pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the 
>>> pad hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the 
>>> brake loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 
>>> 90 degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>>>
>>> And the relative position of the straddle cable is key to making cantis 
>>> work. So anything that affects that, including washers, is important. 
>>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>>>
 Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles 
 on cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
 point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
 distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
 to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
 brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
 regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
 only changes:
  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points 
 to each other and to the straddle hanger
  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.

 Laing
 Delray Beach FL


 On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>
> Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work 
> well when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
> https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/
>
> I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big 
> difference. 
>
> I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or 
> perceived lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater 
> mechanical advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers 
> than 
> cantis or calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to 
> lighten 
> up, I nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no 
> problems. I find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:
>
>> I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
>> advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes 
>> from 
>> 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. 
>> Stops 
>> like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
>> compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
>> tandem

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[S]

Maybe we are talking past each other or interpreting that passage 
differently? To me, the point is not about pad angle, but arm/wire angle. 
You want a good arm/wire angle at the point where the pad contacts the rim 
and washers can help you achieve this. For instance, keeping all else 
equal, if you use fewer washers, the pad starts farther away from the rim, 
hence the arm needs to swing farther in for the pad to contact the rim, 
increasing the arm/wire angle and decreasing mechanical advantage. I think 
this is easiest to visualize with V-brakes, as the wire remains horizontal. 

On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 1:29:38 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:

> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
> pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
> hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
> loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
> degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>
> Geometrically this is just plain false. The brake pads have spherical 
> washers that allow, within limits, the brake pad to be perpendicular to the 
> rim whether the arm is slanted in or out or perpendicular. The geometry of 
> the pad to the rim to the pivot point is constant. The pad is ALWAYS headed 
> in a downward arc relative to the rim because braze on pivot point is 
> outward of and below the rim surface, even when the brake pad post to brake 
> arm attachment point is moving up.
> Pretend the braze on pivot point is the hub of a very tiny wheel to the 
> right and down from the braking surface. As the tiny wheel rotates 
> counterclockwise, the spokes on the left rotate down as the spokes on the 
> right rotate up.
>
> Laing
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 4:03:06 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>>
>> I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":
>>
>> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
>> pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
>> hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
>> loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
>> degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>>
>> And the relative position of the straddle cable is key to making cantis 
>> work. So anything that affects that, including washers, is important. 
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles 
>>> on cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
>>> point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
>>> distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
>>> to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
>>> brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
>>> regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
>>> only changes:
>>>  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points to 
>>> each other and to the straddle hanger
>>>  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.
>>>
>>> Laing
>>> Delray Beach FL
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:

 Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work 
 well when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
 https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/

 I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big 
 difference. 

 I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or perceived 
 lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater mechanical 
 advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers than cantis or 
 calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to lighten up, I 
 nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no problems. I 
 find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
 On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:

> I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
> advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes 
> from 
> 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
> like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
> compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
> tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get 
> that 
> people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
> technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
> shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set 
> up 
> 

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Nick Payne]

On Thursday, 22 October 2020 07:03:06 UTC+11, S wrote:
>
> I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":
>
> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
> pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
> hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
> loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
> degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>

The second part of this description (that the angle of the arm can somehow 
promote the pad diving under the rim) is garbage. The geometry of the 
pad/rim interface relative to the brake pivot point doesn't change 
regardless of what path you follow between the two. It's just as much 
woolly thinking as the PMP cranks from the 1980s, that were supposed to 
eliminate TDC and BDC when pedalling:




Nick

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/a183036d-8cea-43ee-ba82-9025c4cca196o%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[lconley]

"I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."

Geometrically this is just plain false. The brake pads have spherical 
washers that allow, within limits, the brake pad to be perpendicular to the 
rim whether the arm is slanted in or out or perpendicular. The geometry of 
the pad to the rim to the pivot point is constant. The pad is ALWAYS headed 
in a downward arc relative to the rim because braze on pivot point is 
outward of and below the rim surface, even when the brake pad post to brake 
arm attachment point is moving up.
Pretend the braze on pivot point is the hub of a very tiny wheel to the 
right and down from the braking surface. As the tiny wheel rotates 
counterclockwise, the spokes on the left rotate down as the spokes on the 
right rotate up.

Laing

On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 4:03:06 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>
> I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":
>
> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
> pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
> hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
> loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
> degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>
> And the relative position of the straddle cable is key to making cantis 
> work. So anything that affects that, including washers, is important. 
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>
>> Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles on 
>> cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
>> point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
>> distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
>> to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
>> brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
>> regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
>> only changes:
>>  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points to 
>> each other and to the straddle hanger
>>  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.
>>
>> Laing
>> Delray Beach FL
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>>>
>>> Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work 
>>> well when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
>>> https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/
>>>
>>> I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big difference. 
>>>
>>> I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or perceived 
>>> lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater mechanical 
>>> advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers than cantis or 
>>> calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to lighten up, I 
>>> nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no problems. I 
>>> find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
>>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:
>>>
 I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
 advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes 
 from 
 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
 like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
 compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
 tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get that 
 people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
 technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
 shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set 
 up 
 the way they are supposed to be set up.


 On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn 
 NY wrote:
>
> Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant 
> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
> compresses less as a result."
> That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid 
> Speed Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. 
> Currently 
> all set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I 
> spent a lot on cantilevers was 1990
> -Kai
>
> On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 D

Re: [RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Eric Daume]

Yeah, but Mark you like DC750 brakes as well, so your views are pretty
suspect :)

Eric
V brake fan

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 11:59 AM Mark Roland 
wrote:

> I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant
> advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes from
> 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops
> like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and
> compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping
> tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get that
> people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal
> technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic
> shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set up
> the way they are supposed to be set up.
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY
> wrote:
>>
>> Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant benefits
>> to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the cable is
>> under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing compresses
>> less as a result."
>> That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid
>> Speed Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. Currently
>> all set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I
>> spent a lot on cantilevers was 1990
>> -Kai
>>
>> On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:
>>
>>> I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can live
>>> with is a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go with a
>>> short-arm V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant
>>> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the
>>> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing
>>> compresses less as a result.
>>>
>>> Daniel M
>>> Berkeley, CA
>>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/199239c8-ea16-46de-921f-8f90ae1e385fo%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CAHFNW5ANgN%2BRWBJ1hZG1uhyzi73hrWZhX1yT_Tdkt1Rh1EvYqA%40mail.gmail.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Ash]

This might be tangential, but here's an observation I made recently while 
playing with Canti brakes.  When the cable stop is mounted on the stem (ie 
farther from the brakes), the setup becomes more squeak-prone as compared 
to a fork mounted cable stop.   I was intrigued and changed around the 
cable stop a couple of times without changing anything else with the 
brakes.  It squeaked repeatedly more with stem-mounted.  I can probably 
reduce the sound or even eliminate with better toe-in pad adjustment, but 
the bottom line is fork-mounted cable stop setup is more forgiving.

On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 at 13:03:06 UTC-7 S wrote:

> I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":
>
> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
> pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
> hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
> loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
> degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>
> And the relative position of the straddle cable is key to making cantis 
> work. So anything that affects that, including washers, is important. 
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>
>> Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles on 
>> cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
>> point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
>> distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
>> to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
>> brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
>> regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
>> only changes:
>>  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points to 
>> each other and to the straddle hanger
>>  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.
>>
>> Laing
>> Delray Beach FL
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>>>
>>> Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work 
>>> well when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
>>> https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/
>>>
>>> I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big difference. 
>>>
>>> I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or perceived 
>>> lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater mechanical 
>>> advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers than cantis or 
>>> calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to lighten up, I 
>>> nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no problems. I 
>>> find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
>>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:
>>>
 I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
 advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes 
 from 
 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
 like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
 compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
 tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get that 
 people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
 technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
 shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set 
 up 
 the way they are supposed to be set up.


 On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn 
 NY wrote:
>
> Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant 
> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
> compresses less as a result."
> That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid 
> Speed Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. 
> Currently 
> all set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I 
> spent a lot on cantilevers was 1990
> -Kai
>
> On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:
>
>> I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can 
>> live with is a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go 
>> with a 
>> short-arm V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant 
>> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
>> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
>> compresses less as a result. 
>>
>> Daniel M
>> Berkeley, CA
>>
>>

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[S]

I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":

"I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."

And the relative position of the straddle cable is key to making cantis 
work. So anything that affects that, including washers, is important. 
On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:

> Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles on 
> cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
> point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
> distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
> to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
> brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
> regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
> only changes:
>  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points to 
> each other and to the straddle hanger
>  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.
>
> Laing
> Delray Beach FL
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>>
>> Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work well 
>> when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
>> https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/
>>
>> I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big difference. 
>>
>> I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or perceived 
>> lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater mechanical 
>> advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers than cantis or 
>> calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to lighten up, I 
>> nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no problems. I 
>> find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:
>>
>>> I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
>>> advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes from 
>>> 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
>>> like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
>>> compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
>>> tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get that 
>>> people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
>>> technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
>>> shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set up 
>>> the way they are supposed to be set up.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn 
>>> NY wrote:

 Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant 
 benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
 cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
 compresses less as a result."
 That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid 
 Speed Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. Currently 
 all set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I 
 spent a lot on cantilevers was 1990
 -Kai

 On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:

> I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can 
> live with is a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go with 
> a 
> short-arm V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant 
> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
> compresses less as a result. 
>
> Daniel M
> Berkeley, CA
>


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/05b8bd78-51c4-4460-b2c0-f4c68f49872an%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[lconley]

and 
 3. the relative location of the straddle cable cable attachment points to 
the brake pad rim contact point.

On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 3:16:49 PM UTC-4, lconley wrote:
>
> Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles on 
> cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
> point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
> distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
> to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
> brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
> regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
> only changes:
>  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points to 
> each other and to the straddle hanger
>  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.
>
> Laing
> Delray Beach FL
>
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>>
>> Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work well 
>> when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
>> https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/
>>
>> I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big difference. 
>>
>> I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or perceived 
>> lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater mechanical 
>> advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers than cantis or 
>> calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to lighten up, I 
>> nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no problems. I 
>> find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:
>>
>>> I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
>>> advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes from 
>>> 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
>>> like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
>>> compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
>>> tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get that 
>>> people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
>>> technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
>>> shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set up 
>>> the way they are supposed to be set up.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn 
>>> NY wrote:

 Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant 
 benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
 cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
 compresses less as a result."
 That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid 
 Speed Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. Currently 
 all set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I 
 spent a lot on cantilevers was 1990
 -Kai

 On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:

> I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can 
> live with is a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go with 
> a 
> short-arm V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant 
> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
> compresses less as a result. 
>
> Daniel M
> Berkeley, CA
>


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8d9a2c14-e5f6-4b96-b467-6d658724f238o%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[lconley]

Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles on 
cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
only changes:
 1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points to 
each other and to the straddle hanger
 2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.

Laing
Delray Beach FL

On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>
> Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work well 
> when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
> https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/
>
> I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big difference. 
>
> I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or perceived 
> lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater mechanical 
> advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers than cantis or 
> calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to lighten up, I 
> nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no problems. I 
> find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:
>
>> I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
>> advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes from 
>> 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
>> like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
>> compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
>> tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get that 
>> people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
>> technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
>> shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set up 
>> the way they are supposed to be set up.
>>
>>
>> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant benefits 
>>> to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the cable is 
>>> under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing compresses 
>>> less as a result."
>>> That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid 
>>> Speed Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. Currently 
>>> all set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I 
>>> spent a lot on cantilevers was 1990
>>> -Kai
>>>
>>> On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:
>>>
 I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can live 
 with is a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go with a 
 short-arm V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant 
 benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
 cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
 compresses less as a result. 

 Daniel M
 Berkeley, CA

>>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/763d5f47-ce4a-48c9-9cf2-3903a59a5b20o%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[S]

Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work well 
when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/

I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big difference. 

I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or perceived 
lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater mechanical 
advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers than cantis or 
calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to lighten up, I 
nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no problems. I 
find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:

> I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
> advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes from 
> 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
> like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
> compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
> tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get that 
> people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
> technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
> shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set up 
> the way they are supposed to be set up.
>
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY 
> wrote:
>>
>> Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant benefits 
>> to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the cable is 
>> under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing compresses 
>> less as a result."
>> That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid 
>> Speed Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. Currently 
>> all set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I 
>> spent a lot on cantilevers was 1990
>> -Kai
>>
>> On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:
>>
>>> I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can live 
>>> with is a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go with a 
>>> short-arm V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant 
>>> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
>>> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
>>> compresses less as a result. 
>>>
>>> Daniel M
>>> Berkeley, CA
>>>
>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/addfbc6d-ea45-4a75-a4ff-efb7788baa06n%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Mark Roland]

I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes from 
1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get that 
people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set up 
the way they are supposed to be set up.

On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY 
wrote:
>
> Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant benefits 
> to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the cable is 
> under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing compresses 
> less as a result."
> That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid Speed 
> Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. Currently all 
> set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I spent a 
> lot on cantilevers was 1990
> -Kai
>
> On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:
>
>> I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can live 
>> with is a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go with a 
>> short-arm V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant 
>> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
>> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
>> compresses less as a result. 
>>
>> Daniel M
>> Berkeley, CA
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/199239c8-ea16-46de-921f-8f90ae1e385fo%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Benz Ouyang, Sunnyvale, CA]

Travel Agents need to be set up correctly so the cable has no relative 
motion with respect to the pulley, especially around the bridging hole. 
Otherwise, the sharp kink and repeated motion may possibly cause the cable 
to fray. The key is to ensure the bridging hole is set correctly within the 
rotation range of the pulley. Here's Park Tool's tutorial on Travel Agent 
setup 

.

Given that there are people with good experiences with Travel Agents, I 
don't believe the mechanism is always inherently bad. OK, maybe if you 
consider being sensitive to setup as bad. Furthermore, having a shop do it 
doesn't guarantee that the job was properly done. I can't tell you how many 
times I've been aghast at "professional" work that I could have done 
better, if I had their tools (which I didn't because it's too expensive for 
one-time use).

Finally, the leverage/cable displacement change provided by the Travel 
Agent is not adjustable. It's kind of hit-or-miss whether you like the 
feel. For many people, having a spongy feel isn't great, and they prefer a 
solid feel. However, if the brake is set up and adjusted correctly, those 
two feel types only indicate how much leverage the brake system has – the 
spongy feel is high leverage, and the solid feel is low leverage. See St. 
Sheldon  for more 
info (applies equally to canti and V-brakes). Some brake levers have 
adjustable leverage though, and with those, one can customize the leverage 
to vary the feel to one's liking (again, trading power for "solidness").

On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 1:46:47 PM UTC-7 fugd...@gmail.com wrote:

> Twice I had frayed cables even when installed by LBS. I was told by 2 
> different bike mechanics frayed cables were not uncommon - also I remember 
> the feel was not as good as direct. YMMV 
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 11:00:48 AM UTC-7 vhans...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Please expand?   I have used travel agents for years, even replaced 
>> cables on them..   I have had no issues. 
>>
>> VTW
>>
>> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 9:34:19 AM UTC-7 fug...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> There are real problems with Travel Agents, including safety. I just 
>>> changed levers.
>>>
>>> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 8:26:56 AM UTC-7 Michael Baquerizo wrote:
>>>
 i'm not a pro mechanic by any means but i've used the standard shimano 
 lever on a tektro canti front and shimano v brake rear and didn't really 
 have beef with the stopping power (casual use, not performance at all, in 
 NYC)



 On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 5:18:09 PM UTC-4 greenteadrinkers wrote:

> Anyone ever use a Canti brake up front and V-brake in the back? I know 
> I'd need different pull levers, which complicates things, but I've 
> noticed 
> up front, the V-brake can sometimes be a little more than I need, it's 
> great in the back though. I have two sets of Paul neo-retro canti's 
> sitting 
> around and was thinking the combination might be something weird worth 
> looking into.
> Thx! 
> Scott
>


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/be9e035a-5d6d-4e06-9e91-6fa9c651c2bfn%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant benefits to 
long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the cable is under 
less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing compresses less as 
a result."
That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid Speed 
Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. Currently all 
set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I spent a 
lot on cantilevers was 1990
-Kai

On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:

> I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can live 
> with is a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go with a 
> short-arm V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant 
> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
> compresses less as a result. 
>
> Daniel M
> Berkeley, CA
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/5909bd66-6c14-49c1-9397-dea9697b1496n%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[fugd...@gmail.com]

Twice I had frayed cables even when installed by LBS. I was told by 2 
different bike mechanics frayed cables were not uncommon - also I remember 
the feel was not as good as direct. YMMV 

On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 11:00:48 AM UTC-7 vhans...@gmail.com wrote:

> Please expand?   I have used travel agents for years, even replaced cables 
> on them..   I have had no issues. 
>
> VTW
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 9:34:19 AM UTC-7 fug...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> There are real problems with Travel Agents, including safety. I just 
>> changed levers.
>>
>> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 8:26:56 AM UTC-7 Michael Baquerizo wrote:
>>
>>> i'm not a pro mechanic by any means but i've used the standard shimano 
>>> lever on a tektro canti front and shimano v brake rear and didn't really 
>>> have beef with the stopping power (casual use, not performance at all, in 
>>> NYC)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 5:18:09 PM UTC-4 greenteadrinkers wrote:
>>>
 Anyone ever use a Canti brake up front and V-brake in the back? I know 
 I'd need different pull levers, which complicates things, but I've noticed 
 up front, the V-brake can sometimes be a little more than I need, it's 
 great in the back though. I have two sets of Paul neo-retro canti's 
 sitting 
 around and was thinking the combination might be something weird worth 
 looking into.
 Thx! 
 Scott

>>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/939a3048-d16e-40d9-8e24-03440e3fb7e0n%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Victor Hanson]

Please expand?   I have used travel agents for years, even replaced cables 
on them..   I have had no issues. 

VTW

On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 9:34:19 AM UTC-7 fugd...@gmail.com wrote:

> There are real problems with Travel Agents, including safety. I just 
> changed levers.
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 8:26:56 AM UTC-7 Michael Baquerizo wrote:
>
>> i'm not a pro mechanic by any means but i've used the standard shimano 
>> lever on a tektro canti front and shimano v brake rear and didn't really 
>> have beef with the stopping power (casual use, not performance at all, in 
>> NYC)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 5:18:09 PM UTC-4 greenteadrinkers wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone ever use a Canti brake up front and V-brake in the back? I know 
>>> I'd need different pull levers, which complicates things, but I've noticed 
>>> up front, the V-brake can sometimes be a little more than I need, it's 
>>> great in the back though. I have two sets of Paul neo-retro canti's sitting 
>>> around and was thinking the combination might be something weird worth 
>>> looking into.
>>> Thx! 
>>> Scott
>>>
>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8440e278-cc2d-443c-8c01-083544203910n%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[greenteadrinkers]

Thanks for all the info, everyone! I'll need to take a deeper dive into the 
comments shortly.

On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 12:57:12 PM UTC-4 Ash wrote:

> Here's a related thread 
> https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/a0uWpfDl6Ss/m/G7bKwJ8XCAAJ
>
> After experimenting with various setups, I finally settled with Avid 
> shorty ultimates, setup with wide profile in the rear and narrow in the 
> front.  Been riding the Susie this way for over a month.  Very happy with 
> break power distribution and modulation. 
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, 16 October 2020 at 14:18:09 UTC-7 greenteadrinkers wrote:
>
>> Anyone ever use a Canti brake up front and V-brake in the back? I know 
>> I'd need different pull levers, which complicates things, but I've noticed 
>> up front, the V-brake can sometimes be a little more than I need, it's 
>> great in the back though. I have two sets of Paul neo-retro canti's sitting 
>> around and was thinking the combination might be something weird worth 
>> looking into.
>> Thx! 
>> Scott
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8e61d102-57eb-47c8-b253-cebdb8ea1072n%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[fugd...@gmail.com]

There are real problems with Travel Agents, including safety. I just 
changed levers.

On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 8:26:56 AM UTC-7 Michael Baquerizo wrote:

> i'm not a pro mechanic by any means but i've used the standard shimano 
> lever on a tektro canti front and shimano v brake rear and didn't really 
> have beef with the stopping power (casual use, not performance at all, in 
> NYC)
>
>
>
> On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 5:18:09 PM UTC-4 greenteadrinkers wrote:
>
>> Anyone ever use a Canti brake up front and V-brake in the back? I know 
>> I'd need different pull levers, which complicates things, but I've noticed 
>> up front, the V-brake can sometimes be a little more than I need, it's 
>> great in the back though. I have two sets of Paul neo-retro canti's sitting 
>> around and was thinking the combination might be something weird worth 
>> looking into.
>> Thx! 
>> Scott
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/72f5d76b-0702-4a0e-bf97-294bb6a14b36n%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Michael Baquerizo]

i'm not a pro mechanic by any means but i've used the standard shimano 
lever on a tektro canti front and shimano v brake rear and didn't really 
have beef with the stopping power (casual use, not performance at all, in 
NYC)



On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 5:18:09 PM UTC-4 greenteadrinkers wrote:

> Anyone ever use a Canti brake up front and V-brake in the back? I know I'd 
> need different pull levers, which complicates things, but I've noticed up 
> front, the V-brake can sometimes be a little more than I need, it's great 
> in the back though. I have two sets of Paul neo-retro canti's sitting 
> around and was thinking the combination might be something weird worth 
> looking into.
> Thx! 
> Scott
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/87a4b341-9a0e-49f6-a000-49a36d8e588fn%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Daniel M]

I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can live with is 
a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go with a short-arm 
V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant benefits to 
long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the cable is under less 
tension so the cable stretches less and the housing compresses less as a 
result. 

Daniel M
Berkeley, CA

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/c54df9d7-5527-4ed2-bcc1-bdd2477c1d18o%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Philip Williamson]

I’d be more likely to put the V on the front, like Nick. His travel agent 
trick is a smart way to match the levers with the different brakes, too.

I’ve had two bikes that needed Paul minimotos to cure the brake judder. The 
light forks and long steerers did the flexing trick under hard braking, 
slackening the brake pressure. Because the cable stop is on the brake, Vs 
and Minimotos aren’t affected by the flex in the system.

I’d look at the V-brakes pads, sand them and make sure they hit square, and 
make sure there are no dents or high spots in your rim. If you have another 
wheel that fits, I’d swap that in and see if the judder remains.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA



On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 2:18:09 PM UTC-7 greenteadrinkers wrote:

> Anyone ever use a Canti brake up front and V-brake in the back? I know I'd 
> need different pull levers, which complicates things, but I've noticed up 
> front, the V-brake can sometimes be a little more than I need, it's great 
> in the back though. I have two sets of Paul neo-retro canti's sitting 
> around and was thinking the combination might be something weird worth 
> looking into.
> Thx! 
> Scott
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/2d684b92-e858-4322-a6c5-572227c6e929n%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Nick Payne]

I have the opposite on my Appaloosa - V-brake in front and canti on the 
rear. I used that combination because I found that cantis on the front get 
in the way of front panniers - I prefer touring with front panniers and no 
rear panniers.

The brake levers are TRP and with a travel agent on the front to match the 
V-brake to the lever cable pull.

Nick

On Saturday, 17 October 2020 08:18:09 UTC+11, greenteadrinkers wrote:
>
> Anyone ever use a Canti brake up front and V-brake in the back? I know I'd 
> need different pull levers, which complicates things, but I've noticed up 
> front, the V-brake can sometimes be a little more than I need, it's great 
> in the back though. I have two sets of Paul neo-retro canti's sitting 
> around and was thinking the combination might be something weird worth 
> looking into.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/4a6131a3-f5d5-4456-8803-70030f394594o%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Garth]

Try the Tektro fork mounted cable hanger as the front brake cable is 
then direct to it just above the yoke cable. It's a common thing for 
shudder in the Cyclocross world. Also make sure your headset is properly 
adjusted. 




-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/5069ab7b-5ca3-4e8c-9a75-6857833664a9o%40googlegroups.com.