[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[William]

Update.  I have three times in the log book now.  The first one was on
700C wheels and I felt lousy, so I expect that I'll ignore that
2:09:45 time.  The second ride confirmed that the first will probably
get tagged an outlier.  I did the same ~26 mile hilly stretch through
the east bay hills in 1:51:52.  Today I logged a third time, this time
on the 650B wheelset.  With Hetres at 45psi, I did the route in
1:46:32.

There's still a lot of data to take.  I'm trying to do each ride with
an honest hard effort, trying to beat my personal best each time,
regardless of what wheelset I am running.  I wont even start to look
for trends or comparisons until I've gone back and forth at least a
few times between wheelsets.  Clearly I could get significantly more
scientific with a power tap or similar, but I'm not that interested in
doing that.

The good news for me is that the bike feels great with both wheelsets,
and feels different.  Different enough that I'll probably keep both
setups at the ready.  Two bikes for the price of one!  Yay me!

On Feb 28, 2:54 pm, dweendaddy  wrote:
> To add to the scientificness of it all, flip a coin to find out what
> you are going to ride each day
>
> Not unlike this great trial in the British Medical 
> Journal!http://www.bmj.com/content/341/bmj.c6801.full
>
> On Feb 28, 4:18 pm, Anne Paulson  wrote:
>
> > Yes I do, and a Roadeo too. And I love them all.
>
> > On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 10:17 AM, doug peterson  wrote:
> > > FWIW, list member Anne has a pair of Atlantises all to herself!
>
> > --
> > -- Anne Paulson
>
> > My hovercraft is full of eels
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[dweendaddy]

To add to the scientificness of it all, flip a coin to find out what
you are going to ride each day

Not unlike this great trial in the British Medical Journal!
http://www.bmj.com/content/341/bmj.c6801.full

On Feb 28, 4:18 pm, Anne Paulson  wrote:
> Yes I do, and a Roadeo too. And I love them all.
>
> On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 10:17 AM, doug peterson  wrote:
> > FWIW, list member Anne has a pair of Atlantises all to herself!
>
> --
> -- Anne Paulson
>
> My hovercraft is full of eels

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Re: [RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[Anne Paulson]

Yes I do, and a Roadeo too. And I love them all.

On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 10:17 AM, doug peterson  wrote:
> FWIW, list member Anne has a pair of Atlantises all to herself!


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-- Anne Paulson

My hovercraft is full of eels

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[Pondero]

If there is minimal stop/start, and if the road is not glassy smooth,
my money is on the Hetres.

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[William]

For what it's worth, I did the 35 mile commute to work today and now
have a time logged in the spreadsheet.  I expect this is one we will
throw out as an outlier because I felt like garbage.  It was on the
700C wheels, but I don't attribute my feeling lousy and riding slow to
anything but me.  If I'm 20 minutes faster tomorrow on the 650Bs it
will only mean I had a bad day today.


On Feb 26, 4:09 pm, "Bill M."  wrote:
> I think Patrick's comments are right on.  I rode a metric century
> today on Paris-Motos (mounted on 32 spoke Dyads laced to Phil cassette
> hubs).  They felt fine cruising along solo, but I sure didn't feel
> like trying to wind them up to jump on one of the pacelines that
> passed me.  Had I been on my crabon go-fast running on 24/27 spoke
> Campy wheels and 25 mm (measured 26 mm) Vittoria Open CX's I would
> have been more able to make the jump.  What wears you out in a fast
> group isn't so much rolling resistance as the constant accelerations
> and decelerations, and light, skinny wheels and tires seem to spin up
> faster.
>
> That said, I was very comfortable today with 65 PSI in the tires and a
> sprung Brooks Champion Flyer under my butt and that was what I wanted
> for today's ride.  65 miles and 1655 feet of climbing in 4:32 won't
> get me a pro team contract but it felt fine for this overweight 52
> year old.
>
> Bill
>
> On Feb 26, 7:54 am, Patrick in VT  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 25, 2:56 pm, William  wrote:
> >   
>
> > > A lot of comfort is bike fit, though, and the 700x28 wheels won't change
> > > any of my fit points on the bike, so maybe I'll feel just as good.
> > > Who knows?  
>
> > Depends on the roads, no?  most of the long rides I do happen to
> > include a lot of dirt - I really like 650b for these rides because it
> > is definitely more comfortable when the pavement ends.
>
> > for road rides, my 700c bike with 25s is just plain faster.  every now
> > and then, i'll take my 650b rig (which is actually a sporty bike -
> > columbus spirit-for-lugs tubes/pari-motos/white industries H2s laced
> > to aerohead rims) out with some fast friends (who i can normally put
> > the hurt on) and it's a struggle just to keep up.  the pari-motos at
> > 50psi just don't accelerate like a narrower tire at higher pressure -
> > and it's very noticeable when you need to get back up to 25mph in a
> > hurry.  this is what "fast" means to me.
>
> > just cruising along, I don't really notice a difference - i'm as fast
> > as my legs and lungs are strong on any given day.  but the bike/wheel
> > choice becomes pretty clear given the type of ride i'm about to do:
> > rough-stuff mixed terrain or long brevet - 650b!!  spirited road ride
> > - 700c!!

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[stevep33]

I like to go fast, the faster the better.  Riv + fat tire = fast and
comfortable.

This quasi scientific experiment is awesome.

On Feb 25, 2:34 pm, Peter Pesce  wrote:
 "If we all like riding so much, why are we
> always in such a hurry to get it over with as fast as possible?"
>

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[Bill M.]

I think Patrick's comments are right on.  I rode a metric century
today on Paris-Motos (mounted on 32 spoke Dyads laced to Phil cassette
hubs).  They felt fine cruising along solo, but I sure didn't feel
like trying to wind them up to jump on one of the pacelines that
passed me.  Had I been on my crabon go-fast running on 24/27 spoke
Campy wheels and 25 mm (measured 26 mm) Vittoria Open CX's I would
have been more able to make the jump.  What wears you out in a fast
group isn't so much rolling resistance as the constant accelerations
and decelerations, and light, skinny wheels and tires seem to spin up
faster.

That said, I was very comfortable today with 65 PSI in the tires and a
sprung Brooks Champion Flyer under my butt and that was what I wanted
for today's ride.  65 miles and 1655 feet of climbing in 4:32 won't
get me a pro team contract but it felt fine for this overweight 52
year old.

Bill

On Feb 26, 7:54 am, Patrick in VT  wrote:
> On Feb 25, 2:56 pm, William  wrote:
>   
>
> > A lot of comfort is bike fit, though, and the 700x28 wheels won't change
> > any of my fit points on the bike, so maybe I'll feel just as good.
> > Who knows?  
>
> Depends on the roads, no?  most of the long rides I do happen to
> include a lot of dirt - I really like 650b for these rides because it
> is definitely more comfortable when the pavement ends.
>
> for road rides, my 700c bike with 25s is just plain faster.  every now
> and then, i'll take my 650b rig (which is actually a sporty bike -
> columbus spirit-for-lugs tubes/pari-motos/white industries H2s laced
> to aerohead rims) out with some fast friends (who i can normally put
> the hurt on) and it's a struggle just to keep up.  the pari-motos at
> 50psi just don't accelerate like a narrower tire at higher pressure -
> and it's very noticeable when you need to get back up to 25mph in a
> hurry.  this is what "fast" means to me.
>
> just cruising along, I don't really notice a difference - i'm as fast
> as my legs and lungs are strong on any given day.  but the bike/wheel
> choice becomes pretty clear given the type of ride i'm about to do:
> rough-stuff mixed terrain or long brevet - 650b!!  spirited road ride
> - 700c!!

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[William]

For sure the desired outcome for me is that the two wheelsets both
feel great but different.  If that's the outcome then I'll feel like I
have two bikes in one.

On Feb 26, 10:46 am, Patrick in VT  wrote:
> On Feb 26, 11:54 am, William  wrote:
>
> > Patrick, thanks for the comments.  Does this mean that you believe my
> > 700C setup will be faster?  Or does it mean that you believe that
> > whichever wheelset is lighter will be faster?  My test will be a non-
> > stop two hour stretch on mediocre pavement, free of mass sprints.
> > Does that mean you think the speed differences will be negligible?
>
> i don't know, man!  again, "fast" for me is what bike can do under a
> specific set of circumstances - e.g., when I want to attack or respond
> to attack.  it's really hard for me to tell a difference just rollin'
> along - even at a  good clip -  w/out going after town lines or
> jumping on it because i tend to gravitate towards the same speeds
> regardless of what bike i'm on.  it's only when i make the effort to
> go faster that I notice advantages/disadvantages of a certain bike/
> wheel set-up/etc.  if i'm not going hard, well  then i'm not going
> hard.
>
> what are your wheelset/tire specs?  i doubt it would make a difference
> because you are rolling solo and probably won't be accelerating/
> decelerating too much.  but, if "fast" is the game, I'd certainly give
> the edge to a lighter wheelset.
>
> my "fast" 650b wheelset is pretty light - H2s laced to 28h/32h
> velocity aeroheads with pari-motos or GB cypres - pretty lively ride,
> but doesn't accelerate or climb as well as my 700c set-up. my "fast"
> 700c wheelset is a bit lighter and sports the skinny challenge tires -
> it's quick.  my cx wheelset are Zipp 303s and they're in a whole
> 'nuther league.
>
> it bears repeating that a skinny, 700c tire was the *fastest* in BQs
> tire tests.  so, i'll repeat it:  the challenge triathalon (23mm) tire
> was the fastest tire in BQ "real world" tire tests.  Jan wrote, "I
> used these tires for 2000 km (1200 miles) without a flat, and set
> several personal best times during long-distance events. In addition
> to their high performance, these tires offered excellent comfort, road
> feel and cornering adhesion."  somehow, that result always gets left
> out of the wider is faster discussion.
>
> anyway, given the duration/distance of your test route, you're biology
> on any given day is going to be a real variable.
>
> but, let us know what you find - sounds like a fun experiment!

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[Patrick in VT]

On Feb 26, 11:54 am, William  wrote:
> Patrick, thanks for the comments.  Does this mean that you believe my
> 700C setup will be faster?  Or does it mean that you believe that
> whichever wheelset is lighter will be faster?  My test will be a non-
> stop two hour stretch on mediocre pavement, free of mass sprints.
> Does that mean you think the speed differences will be negligible?

i don't know, man!  again, "fast" for me is what bike can do under a
specific set of circumstances - e.g., when I want to attack or respond
to attack.  it's really hard for me to tell a difference just rollin'
along - even at a  good clip -  w/out going after town lines or
jumping on it because i tend to gravitate towards the same speeds
regardless of what bike i'm on.  it's only when i make the effort to
go faster that I notice advantages/disadvantages of a certain bike/
wheel set-up/etc.  if i'm not going hard, well  then i'm not going
hard.

what are your wheelset/tire specs?  i doubt it would make a difference
because you are rolling solo and probably won't be accelerating/
decelerating too much.  but, if "fast" is the game, I'd certainly give
the edge to a lighter wheelset.

my "fast" 650b wheelset is pretty light - H2s laced to 28h/32h
velocity aeroheads with pari-motos or GB cypres - pretty lively ride,
but doesn't accelerate or climb as well as my 700c set-up. my "fast"
700c wheelset is a bit lighter and sports the skinny challenge tires -
it's quick.  my cx wheelset are Zipp 303s and they're in a whole
'nuther league.

it bears repeating that a skinny, 700c tire was the *fastest* in BQs
tire tests.  so, i'll repeat it:  the challenge triathalon (23mm) tire
was the fastest tire in BQ "real world" tire tests.  Jan wrote, "I
used these tires for 2000 km (1200 miles) without a flat, and set
several personal best times during long-distance events. In addition
to their high performance, these tires offered excellent comfort, road
feel and cornering adhesion."  somehow, that result always gets left
out of the wider is faster discussion.

anyway, given the duration/distance of your test route, you're biology
on any given day is going to be a real variable.

but, let us know what you find - sounds like a fun experiment!

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[doug peterson]

FWIW, list member Anne has a pair of Atlantises all to herself!

We got lucky on my wife's bike.  Another list member noticed for sale
& let me know.  We weren't even bike shopping & bought it from someone
who was moving & had to get rid of things in a hurry.  Her loss was
our gain, as they say.

dougP

On Feb 26, 9:49 am, Mojo  wrote:
> Both of you own an Atlantis? Sheesh, Life is Good!
>
> On Feb 26, 9:56 am, doug peterson  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Since this is a "non-scientific tire test" I'll throw in some data to
> > confuse the issue further.  My wife is a small, light person who's
> > ridden for a long time on an aluminum Trek with 700c wheels & Paselas
> > marked 28 mm, measure 26 mm at 80 psi.  On her 26" wheeled Atlantis, I
> > installed some 1.25" wide Panaracer Urban Max (even the name sounds
> > heavy!) and inflate to around 60 psi.  Both bikes weigh the same +/- a
> > water bottle.
>
> > Her downhill style is sitting bolt upright and coasting, so which bike
> > "should" roll faster in this real world roll down test?  We ride a lot
> > of local bike paths that have underpasses where my considerable
> > greater mass gets me going a lot faster.  She nearly keeps up on the
> > 26" wheeled Atlantis, while drifting painfully behind on the 700
> > wheeled bike.  Bigger wheels roll faster?  Maybe not the entire
> > answer?  While it provides hours of amusement to speculate, I'm happy
> > she loves her Atlantis and the Trek is now a "guest bike"..
>
> > dougP
>
> > On Feb 26, 7:54 am, Patrick in VT  wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 25, 2:56 pm, William  wrote:
> > >   
>
> > > > A lot of comfort is bike fit, though, and the 700x28 wheels won't change
> > > > any of my fit points on the bike, so maybe I'll feel just as good.
> > > > Who knows?  
>
> > > Depends on the roads, no?  most of the long rides I do happen to
> > > include a lot of dirt - I really like 650b for these rides because it
> > > is definitely more comfortable when the pavement ends.
>
> > > for road rides, my 700c bike with 25s is just plain faster.  every now
> > > and then, i'll take my 650b rig (which is actually a sporty bike -
> > > columbus spirit-for-lugs tubes/pari-motos/white industries H2s laced
> > > to aerohead rims) out with some fast friends (who i can normally put
> > > the hurt on) and it's a struggle just to keep up.  the pari-motos at
> > > 50psi just don't accelerate like a narrower tire at higher pressure -
> > > and it's very noticeable when you need to get back up to 25mph in a
> > > hurry.  this is what "fast" means to me.
>
> > > just cruising along, I don't really notice a difference - i'm as fast
> > > as my legs and lungs are strong on any given day.  but the bike/wheel
> > > choice becomes pretty clear given the type of ride i'm about to do:
> > > rough-stuff mixed terrain or long brevet - 650b!!  spirited road ride
> > > - 700c!!- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[pruckelshaus]

The last frame I built, still at the painter's, is built for either
650b or 700c's.  Can't wait to get it back and built up so I can
ride!  It fits 650x42's as well as 700x28's without any problem
(fenders would be a tight fit with 700x28's), I do need to swap brake
calipers when I swap wheel size, though.  Geometry is 73 parallel, 57
square but with a 6 degree sloping top tube so the actual ST is more
like 52.5, BB drop is 68mm, stays are 420mm, rake is 47mm.

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[Mojo]

Both of you own an Atlantis? Sheesh, Life is Good!

On Feb 26, 9:56 am, doug peterson  wrote:
> Since this is a "non-scientific tire test" I'll throw in some data to
> confuse the issue further.  My wife is a small, light person who's
> ridden for a long time on an aluminum Trek with 700c wheels & Paselas
> marked 28 mm, measure 26 mm at 80 psi.  On her 26" wheeled Atlantis, I
> installed some 1.25" wide Panaracer Urban Max (even the name sounds
> heavy!) and inflate to around 60 psi.  Both bikes weigh the same +/- a
> water bottle.
>
> Her downhill style is sitting bolt upright and coasting, so which bike
> "should" roll faster in this real world roll down test?  We ride a lot
> of local bike paths that have underpasses where my considerable
> greater mass gets me going a lot faster.  She nearly keeps up on the
> 26" wheeled Atlantis, while drifting painfully behind on the 700
> wheeled bike.  Bigger wheels roll faster?  Maybe not the entire
> answer?  While it provides hours of amusement to speculate, I'm happy
> she loves her Atlantis and the Trek is now a "guest bike"..
>
> dougP
>
> On Feb 26, 7:54 am, Patrick in VT  wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 25, 2:56 pm, William  wrote:
> >   
>
> > > A lot of comfort is bike fit, though, and the 700x28 wheels won't change
> > > any of my fit points on the bike, so maybe I'll feel just as good.
> > > Who knows?  
>
> > Depends on the roads, no?  most of the long rides I do happen to
> > include a lot of dirt - I really like 650b for these rides because it
> > is definitely more comfortable when the pavement ends.
>
> > for road rides, my 700c bike with 25s is just plain faster.  every now
> > and then, i'll take my 650b rig (which is actually a sporty bike -
> > columbus spirit-for-lugs tubes/pari-motos/white industries H2s laced
> > to aerohead rims) out with some fast friends (who i can normally put
> > the hurt on) and it's a struggle just to keep up.  the pari-motos at
> > 50psi just don't accelerate like a narrower tire at higher pressure -
> > and it's very noticeable when you need to get back up to 25mph in a
> > hurry.  this is what "fast" means to me.
>
> > just cruising along, I don't really notice a difference - i'm as fast
> > as my legs and lungs are strong on any given day.  but the bike/wheel
> > choice becomes pretty clear given the type of ride i'm about to do:
> > rough-stuff mixed terrain or long brevet - 650b!!  spirited road ride
> > - 700c!!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[doug peterson]

Since this is a "non-scientific tire test" I'll throw in some data to
confuse the issue further.  My wife is a small, light person who's
ridden for a long time on an aluminum Trek with 700c wheels & Paselas
marked 28 mm, measure 26 mm at 80 psi.  On her 26" wheeled Atlantis, I
installed some 1.25" wide Panaracer Urban Max (even the name sounds
heavy!) and inflate to around 60 psi.  Both bikes weigh the same +/- a
water bottle.

Her downhill style is sitting bolt upright and coasting, so which bike
"should" roll faster in this real world roll down test?  We ride a lot
of local bike paths that have underpasses where my considerable
greater mass gets me going a lot faster.  She nearly keeps up on the
26" wheeled Atlantis, while drifting painfully behind on the 700
wheeled bike.  Bigger wheels roll faster?  Maybe not the entire
answer?  While it provides hours of amusement to speculate, I'm happy
she loves her Atlantis and the Trek is now a "guest bike"..

dougP

On Feb 26, 7:54 am, Patrick in VT  wrote:
> On Feb 25, 2:56 pm, William  wrote:
>   
>
> > A lot of comfort is bike fit, though, and the 700x28 wheels won't change
> > any of my fit points on the bike, so maybe I'll feel just as good.
> > Who knows?  
>
> Depends on the roads, no?  most of the long rides I do happen to
> include a lot of dirt - I really like 650b for these rides because it
> is definitely more comfortable when the pavement ends.
>
> for road rides, my 700c bike with 25s is just plain faster.  every now
> and then, i'll take my 650b rig (which is actually a sporty bike -
> columbus spirit-for-lugs tubes/pari-motos/white industries H2s laced
> to aerohead rims) out with some fast friends (who i can normally put
> the hurt on) and it's a struggle just to keep up.  the pari-motos at
> 50psi just don't accelerate like a narrower tire at higher pressure -
> and it's very noticeable when you need to get back up to 25mph in a
> hurry.  this is what "fast" means to me.
>
> just cruising along, I don't really notice a difference - i'm as fast
> as my legs and lungs are strong on any given day.  but the bike/wheel
> choice becomes pretty clear given the type of ride i'm about to do:
> rough-stuff mixed terrain or long brevet - 650b!!  spirited road ride
> - 700c!!

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[William]

Patrick, thanks for the comments.  Does this mean that you believe my
700C setup will be faster?  Or does it mean that you believe that
whichever wheelset is lighter will be faster?  My test will be a non-
stop two hour stretch on mediocre pavement, free of mass sprints.
Does that mean you think the speed differences will be negligible?


On Feb 26, 7:54 am, Patrick in VT  wrote:
> On Feb 25, 2:56 pm, William  wrote:
>   
>
> > A lot of comfort is bike fit, though, and the 700x28 wheels won't change
> > any of my fit points on the bike, so maybe I'll feel just as good.
> > Who knows?  
>
> Depends on the roads, no?  most of the long rides I do happen to
> include a lot of dirt - I really like 650b for these rides because it
> is definitely more comfortable when the pavement ends.
>
> for road rides, my 700c bike with 25s is just plain faster.  every now
> and then, i'll take my 650b rig (which is actually a sporty bike -
> columbus spirit-for-lugs tubes/pari-motos/white industries H2s laced
> to aerohead rims) out with some fast friends (who i can normally put
> the hurt on) and it's a struggle just to keep up.  the pari-motos at
> 50psi just don't accelerate like a narrower tire at higher pressure -
> and it's very noticeable when you need to get back up to 25mph in a
> hurry.  this is what "fast" means to me.
>
> just cruising along, I don't really notice a difference - i'm as fast
> as my legs and lungs are strong on any given day.  but the bike/wheel
> choice becomes pretty clear given the type of ride i'm about to do:
> rough-stuff mixed terrain or long brevet - 650b!!  spirited road ride
> - 700c!!

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[Patrick in VT]

On Feb 25, 2:56 pm, William  wrote:
  
> A lot of comfort is bike fit, though, and the 700x28 wheels won't change
> any of my fit points on the bike, so maybe I'll feel just as good.
> Who knows?  

Depends on the roads, no?  most of the long rides I do happen to
include a lot of dirt - I really like 650b for these rides because it
is definitely more comfortable when the pavement ends.

for road rides, my 700c bike with 25s is just plain faster.  every now
and then, i'll take my 650b rig (which is actually a sporty bike -
columbus spirit-for-lugs tubes/pari-motos/white industries H2s laced
to aerohead rims) out with some fast friends (who i can normally put
the hurt on) and it's a struggle just to keep up.  the pari-motos at
50psi just don't accelerate like a narrower tire at higher pressure -
and it's very noticeable when you need to get back up to 25mph in a
hurry.  this is what "fast" means to me.

just cruising along, I don't really notice a difference - i'm as fast
as my legs and lungs are strong on any given day.  but the bike/wheel
choice becomes pretty clear given the type of ride i'm about to do:
rough-stuff mixed terrain or long brevet - 650b!!  spirited road ride
- 700c!!

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[Philip Williamson]

Two things - Grant often says things like 'my fastest time up the
local mountain was set in sandals,' or 'the times for x and y were
within..." To me, that says he's timing himself. A man of science.
And... when Dan Boxer was the first rider into the Oregon Manifest
checkpoint on his fat red Hetres (blood on the grips, blood on the
pedals) and the BikePortland journalist asked him "do you know who's
behind you?" and he said, "uh... everybody?" I knew he was right. The
Hetres certainly didn't slow him down.

 Philip

 Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com


On Feb 25, 11:56 am, William  wrote:
> Pete
>
> I'm a scientist and an engineer, by profession and by DNA.  I'm wired
> to be curious.  I'm wired to tinker and to question.  I'm not obsessed
> with increasing speed, nor am I obsessed to get the ride over with.
> On brevets, when you ride fat 650B tires, you'll get a number of
> people on 700c road bikes ask you "Why would you want to slow yourself
> down like that?"  They just assume that my 584x41s are absolute pigs.
> I've never been more comfortable on a performance bike than I am on my
> Hilsen with fat 584s.  At the end of a 10 hour day, my back, rear end,
> arms shoulders, hands and feet all feel great.  Once my legs catch up
> I have no doubts that my body could handle the longer events.  Having
> found a new plateau in comfort, now I want to test the assertion that
> my fat 650B tires are actually significantly FASTER than 700x28s.
> It's hard for me to believe it, so I need to see it for myself.  What
> I know is that my Hilsen feels much faster than my Hillborne, even
> though it has much fatter tires (650x41 vs 700x33).  That equation has
> too many variables for sure.
>
> It would be fascinating to me to find that the more comfortable tire
> choice is also the faster tire choice.  I don't know if that's what
> I'll find.  I expect that the data will be inconclusive, too close to
> call.  For sure I expect I'll continue using fat 650Bs for all my long
> distance events.  The comfort is way too much for me to pass up.  A
> lot of comfort is bike fit, though, and the 700x28 wheels won't change
> any of my fit points on the bike, so maybe I'll feel just as good.
> Who knows?  Curious folks like me think this way.
>
> Speaking of curious people being wired differently...If you really
> want to blow your mind, ask Grant what the perfect rim diameter is.
> He has an answer that he will defend emphatically and his perfect size
> rim has never been produced.  So, don't misconstrue Grant's 'enjoy the
> ride' rhetoric to suggest that Grant doesn't sweat the details on
> bikes.  He's one hundred times more technically nitpicky than me, and
> I think that's a very good thing, and one of the myriad reasons I like
> buying Rivendells.
>
> On Feb 25, 11:34 am, Peter Pesce  wrote:
>
> > Very cool idea to have one bike that works for both sizes, and a
> > stroke of minor genius to think of up-sizing the 650B bike, rather
> > than down-sizing a 700. I was hoping I could convert my Sam to 650B,
> > just to see what all the fuss is about, but it only took a few
> > measurements to see that it wouldn't really work.
>
> > I am curious to see your test results, but can't see how they'd be in
> > any way meaningful - jut too many variables.
>
> > I can see how speed matters on a brevet, and to some degree on commute
> > (especially a 35-miler) but I, too, keep coming back to Grant's
> > question (paraphrased): "If we all like riding so much, why are we
> > always in such a hurry to get it over with as fast as possible?"
>
> > On Feb 25, 1:04 pm, William  wrote:
>
> > > OK so I made a sort of self-indulgent mod to my A. Homer Hilsen.  I
> > > set up the normally 650B bike with a 700C wheelset and short reach
> > > brakes.  It's a wheelset I already had, and a short-reach brakeset I
> > > already had.  So now I have a single bike that can easily be taken on
> > > a ride with 650Bx(whatever) tires one day, and taken on the same ride
> > > with 700x(23-28) tires the next, or whatever.
>
> > > I bought the bike because of the feel of 650B, and I'm thrilled with
> > > it.  Like most of you, I've been skeptical of the claims from Jan H
> > > and others that fat tires are faster.  That said, on brevets in the
> > > last couple of months, I've been surprised at how quickly I catch and
> > > pass riders on coasting descents when I'm on 650x38 at 50psi and they
> > > are on 700x23 and I presume 90-110psi.  That's anecdotal, and doesn't
> > > necessarily mean anything, but it was surprising.
>
> > > So, now I think it will be fun to do a pseudo-scientific spot
> > > comparison between 650B and 700C.  My commute to work is a 35-mile
> > > hilly ride through the east bay hills from El Cerrito to South
> > > Hayward.  A good chunk of that is a non-stop stretch.  I can usually
> > > get from my front door to a traffic signal in front of Castro Valley
> > > High School without stopping or putting my foot down.  The next 10
> > > times

[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[William]

Triangia!

http://www.rivbike.com/products/show/trangia-cooksets-big-and-smaller/52-049


On Feb 25, 5:32 pm, cyclotourist  wrote:
> On topic:  Tagua nuts!
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 12:31 PM, William  wrote:
> > Tarantulas.
>
> > On Feb 25, 12:20 pm, "cyclotour...@gmail.com" 
> > wrote:
> > > textiles?
>
> > > On Feb 25, 12:13 pm, Michael_S  wrote:
>
> > > > Dang, Bill you are driving me down the road to ruin. All this talk
> > > > about Hetres being faster/smoother/better is making me want a 650B
> > > > bike even more.
> > > > After convincing my SO that I was not fickle and I could keep a bike
> > > > for at least a few years, I'm seriously contemplating some 650B
> > > > experiments of my own. (Must be that Engineer/Scientist brain
> > > > phenomenon).
>
> > > > At least you didn't mention the T word!
>
> > > > ~Mike
>
> > > > On Feb 25, 12:02 pm, Michael_S  wrote:
>
> > > > > On my own I don't care how fast I go. My goal is to enjoy the
> > > > > outdoors, exercise my body or to get somewhere. When I ride with
> > > > > others I want to go fast enough to stay with the group, or perhaps
> > > > > meet some time limit in an organized ride.
> > > > > And I still enjoy pushing my body and going fast, sometimes (actually
> > > > > most of the time)
> > > > > It also means I can cover a greater distance and see more.
>
> > > > > I don't see those as bad things. Each person has their own personal
> > > > > goals and preferences.  If I'm happy with mine than it doesn't matter
> > > > > what others think
>
> > > > > ~Mike
>
> > > > > On Feb 25, 11:34 am, Peter Pesce  wrote:
>
> > > > > > Very cool idea to have one bike that works for both sizes, and a
> > > > > > stroke of minor genius to think of up-sizing the 650B bike, rather
> > > > > > than down-sizing a 700. I was hoping I could convert my Sam to
> > 650B,
> > > > > > just to see what all the fuss is about, but it only took a few
> > > > > > measurements to see that it wouldn't really work.
>
> > > > > > I am curious to see your test results, but can't see how they'd be
> > in
> > > > > > any way meaningful - jut too many variables.
>
> > > > > > I can see how speed matters on a brevet, and to some degree on
> > commute
> > > > > > (especially a 35-miler) but I, too, keep coming back to Grant's
> > > > > > question (paraphrased): "If we all like riding so much, why are we
> > > > > > always in such a hurry to get it over with as fast as possible?"
>
> > > > > > On Feb 25, 1:04 pm, William  wrote:
>
> > > > > > > OK so I made a sort of self-indulgent mod to my A. Homer Hilsen.
> >  I
> > > > > > > set up the normally 650B bike with a 700C wheelset and short
> > reach
> > > > > > > brakes.  It's a wheelset I already had, and a short-reach
> > brakeset I
> > > > > > > already had.  So now I have a single bike that can easily be
> > taken on
> > > > > > > a ride with 650Bx(whatever) tires one day, and taken on the same
> > ride
> > > > > > > with 700x(23-28) tires the next, or whatever.
>
> > > > > > > I bought the bike because of the feel of 650B, and I'm thrilled
> > with
> > > > > > > it.  Like most of you, I've been skeptical of the claims from Jan
> > H
> > > > > > > and others that fat tires are faster.  That said, on brevets in
> > the
> > > > > > > last couple of months, I've been surprised at how quickly I catch
> > and
> > > > > > > pass riders on coasting descents when I'm on 650x38 at 50psi and
> > they
> > > > > > > are on 700x23 and I presume 90-110psi.  That's anecdotal, and
> > doesn't
> > > > > > > necessarily mean anything, but it was surprising.
>
> > > > > > > So, now I think it will be fun to do a pseudo-scientific spot
> > > > > > > comparison between 650B and 700C.  My commute to work is a
> > 35-mile
> > > > > > > hilly ride through the east bay hills from El Cerrito to South
> > > > > > > Hayward.  A good chunk of that is a non-stop stretch.  I can
> > usually
> > > > > > > get from my front door to a traffic signal in front of Castro
> > Valley
> > > > > > > High School without stopping or putting my foot down.  The next
> > 10
> > > > > > > times I do this commute, I'm going to alternate between the two
> > > > > > > wheelsets, and record my time for the same non-stop stretch for
> > these
> > > > > > > ten rides.  The 650B tires will be hetres at 50/45psi, and the
> > 700C
> > > > > > > tires will be continental gatorskin 28s at 85/80psi.
>
> > > > > > > Anyone care to guess which will seem faster?  Too close to call?
> > > > > > > Impossible to test unless the rider is blind to the wheel
> > > > > > > configuration?  Any advice on keeping the data clean?- Hide
> > quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscr

Re: [RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[cyclotourist]

On topic:  Tagua nuts!

On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 12:31 PM, William  wrote:

> Tarantulas.
>
> On Feb 25, 12:20 pm, "cyclotour...@gmail.com" 
> wrote:
> > textiles?
> >
> > On Feb 25, 12:13 pm, Michael_S  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Dang, Bill you are driving me down the road to ruin. All this talk
> > > about Hetres being faster/smoother/better is making me want a 650B
> > > bike even more.
> > > After convincing my SO that I was not fickle and I could keep a bike
> > > for at least a few years, I'm seriously contemplating some 650B
> > > experiments of my own. (Must be that Engineer/Scientist brain
> > > phenomenon).
> >
> > > At least you didn't mention the T word!
> >
> > > ~Mike
> >
> > > On Feb 25, 12:02 pm, Michael_S  wrote:
> >
> > > > On my own I don't care how fast I go. My goal is to enjoy the
> > > > outdoors, exercise my body or to get somewhere. When I ride with
> > > > others I want to go fast enough to stay with the group, or perhaps
> > > > meet some time limit in an organized ride.
> > > > And I still enjoy pushing my body and going fast, sometimes (actually
> > > > most of the time)
> > > > It also means I can cover a greater distance and see more.
> >
> > > > I don't see those as bad things. Each person has their own personal
> > > > goals and preferences.  If I'm happy with mine than it doesn't matter
> > > > what others think
> >
> > > > ~Mike
> >
> > > > On Feb 25, 11:34 am, Peter Pesce  wrote:
> >
> > > > > Very cool idea to have one bike that works for both sizes, and a
> > > > > stroke of minor genius to think of up-sizing the 650B bike, rather
> > > > > than down-sizing a 700. I was hoping I could convert my Sam to
> 650B,
> > > > > just to see what all the fuss is about, but it only took a few
> > > > > measurements to see that it wouldn't really work.
> >
> > > > > I am curious to see your test results, but can't see how they'd be
> in
> > > > > any way meaningful - jut too many variables.
> >
> > > > > I can see how speed matters on a brevet, and to some degree on
> commute
> > > > > (especially a 35-miler) but I, too, keep coming back to Grant's
> > > > > question (paraphrased): "If we all like riding so much, why are we
> > > > > always in such a hurry to get it over with as fast as possible?"
> >
> > > > > On Feb 25, 1:04 pm, William  wrote:
> >
> > > > > > OK so I made a sort of self-indulgent mod to my A. Homer Hilsen.
>  I
> > > > > > set up the normally 650B bike with a 700C wheelset and short
> reach
> > > > > > brakes.  It's a wheelset I already had, and a short-reach
> brakeset I
> > > > > > already had.  So now I have a single bike that can easily be
> taken on
> > > > > > a ride with 650Bx(whatever) tires one day, and taken on the same
> ride
> > > > > > with 700x(23-28) tires the next, or whatever.
> >
> > > > > > I bought the bike because of the feel of 650B, and I'm thrilled
> with
> > > > > > it.  Like most of you, I've been skeptical of the claims from Jan
> H
> > > > > > and others that fat tires are faster.  That said, on brevets in
> the
> > > > > > last couple of months, I've been surprised at how quickly I catch
> and
> > > > > > pass riders on coasting descents when I'm on 650x38 at 50psi and
> they
> > > > > > are on 700x23 and I presume 90-110psi.  That's anecdotal, and
> doesn't
> > > > > > necessarily mean anything, but it was surprising.
> >
> > > > > > So, now I think it will be fun to do a pseudo-scientific spot
> > > > > > comparison between 650B and 700C.  My commute to work is a
> 35-mile
> > > > > > hilly ride through the east bay hills from El Cerrito to South
> > > > > > Hayward.  A good chunk of that is a non-stop stretch.  I can
> usually
> > > > > > get from my front door to a traffic signal in front of Castro
> Valley
> > > > > > High School without stopping or putting my foot down.  The next
> 10
> > > > > > times I do this commute, I'm going to alternate between the two
> > > > > > wheelsets, and record my time for the same non-stop stretch for
> these
> > > > > > ten rides.  The 650B tires will be hetres at 50/45psi, and the
> 700C
> > > > > > tires will be continental gatorskin 28s at 85/80psi.
> >
> > > > > > Anyone care to guess which will seem faster?  Too close to call?
> > > > > > Impossible to test unless the rider is blind to the wheel
> > > > > > configuration?  Any advice on keeping the data clean?- Hide
> quoted text -
> >
> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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>
>


-- 
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

*...in terms of recreational cycling there a

[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[William]

Pete

I didn't detect any dismissiveness or contentiousness in your post
above, nor did I intend any defensiveness in my reply, so it's me who
should apologize if you got that from my reply.  I appreciated your
post.

On Feb 25, 5:05 pm, Peter Pesce  wrote:
> William
> Apologies. I didn't intent my tone to be dismissive or in any way
> contentious.
> I think it's an interesting experiment and tried to specifically cite
> how speed could really matter in your brevet riding and commute. So I
> understand it matters to you more than it may to me. I'm really not a
> sensitive or experienced enough rider that I think I could tell much
> difference between any two tires.
> I also paraphrased Grant as much out of "bemusement" as anything else.
> I'm sure he sweats the details ( though I'm not sure that sweating
> details and fretting about speed are the same thing)
> In any case, in look forward to the results, though I fear they will
> only stoke my 650b curiosities further.
> Pete
>
> On Feb 25, 2:56 pm, William  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Pete
>
> > I'm a scientist and an engineer, by profession and by DNA.  I'm wired
> > to be curious.  I'm wired to tinker and to question.  I'm not obsessed
> > with increasing speed, nor am I obsessed to get the ride over with.
> > On brevets, when you ride fat 650B tires, you'll get a number of
> > people on 700c road bikes ask you "Why would you want to slow yourself
> > down like that?"  They just assume that my 584x41s are absolute pigs.
> > I've never been more comfortable on a performance bike than I am on my
> > Hilsen with fat 584s.  At the end of a 10 hour day, my back, rear end,
> > arms shoulders, hands and feet all feel great.  Once my legs catch up
> > I have no doubts that my body could handle the longer events.  Having
> > found a new plateau in comfort, now I want to test the assertion that
> > my fat 650B tires are actually significantly FASTER than 700x28s.
> > It's hard for me to believe it, so I need to see it for myself.  What
> > I know is that my Hilsen feels much faster than my Hillborne, even
> > though it has much fatter tires (650x41 vs 700x33).  That equation has
> > too many variables for sure.
>
> > It would be fascinating to me to find that the more comfortable tire
> > choice is also the faster tire choice.  I don't know if that's what
> > I'll find.  I expect that the data will be inconclusive, too close to
> > call.  For sure I expect I'll continue using fat 650Bs for all my long
> > distance events.  The comfort is way too much for me to pass up.  A
> > lot of comfort is bike fit, though, and the 700x28 wheels won't change
> > any of my fit points on the bike, so maybe I'll feel just as good.
> > Who knows?  Curious folks like me think this way.
>
> > Speaking of curious people being wired differently...If you really
> > want to blow your mind, ask Grant what the perfect rim diameter is.
> > He has an answer that he will defend emphatically and his perfect size
> > rim has never been produced.  So, don't misconstrue Grant's 'enjoy the
> > ride' rhetoric to suggest that Grant doesn't sweat the details on
> > bikes.  He's one hundred times more technically nitpicky than me, and
> > I think that's a very good thing, and one of the myriad reasons I like
> > buying Rivendells.
>
> > On Feb 25, 11:34 am, Peter Pesce  wrote:
>
> > > Very cool idea to have one bike that works for both sizes, and a
> > > stroke of minor genius to think of up-sizing the 650B bike, rather
> > > than down-sizing a 700. I was hoping I could convert my Sam to 650B,
> > > just to see what all the fuss is about, but it only took a few
> > > measurements to see that it wouldn't really work.
>
> > > I am curious to see your test results, but can't see how they'd be in
> > > any way meaningful - jut too many variables.
>
> > > I can see how speed matters on a brevet, and to some degree on commute
> > > (especially a 35-miler) but I, too, keep coming back to Grant's
> > > question (paraphrased): "If we all like riding so much, why are we
> > > always in such a hurry to get it over with as fast as possible?"
>
> > > On Feb 25, 1:04 pm, William  wrote:
>
> > > > OK so I made a sort of self-indulgent mod to my A. Homer Hilsen.  I
> > > > set up the normally 650B bike with a 700C wheelset and short reach
> > > > brakes.  It's a wheelset I already had, and a short-reach brakeset I
> > > > already had.  So now I have a single bike that can easily be taken on
> > > > a ride with 650Bx(whatever) tires one day, and taken on the same ride
> > > > with 700x(23-28) tires the next, or whatever.
>
> > > > I bought the bike because of the feel of 650B, and I'm thrilled with
> > > > it.  Like most of you, I've been skeptical of the claims from Jan H
> > > > and others that fat tires are faster.  That said, on brevets in the
> > > > last couple of months, I've been surprised at how quickly I catch and
> > > > pass riders on coasting descents when I'm on 650x38 at 50psi and they
> > > > are on 700

[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[Peter Pesce]

William
Apologies. I didn't intent my tone to be dismissive or in any way
contentious.
I think it's an interesting experiment and tried to specifically cite
how speed could really matter in your brevet riding and commute. So I
understand it matters to you more than it may to me. I'm really not a
sensitive or experienced enough rider that I think I could tell much
difference between any two tires.
I also paraphrased Grant as much out of "bemusement" as anything else.
I'm sure he sweats the details ( though I'm not sure that sweating
details and fretting about speed are the same thing)
In any case, in look forward to the results, though I fear they will
only stoke my 650b curiosities further.
Pete

On Feb 25, 2:56 pm, William  wrote:
> Pete
>
> I'm a scientist and an engineer, by profession and by DNA.  I'm wired
> to be curious.  I'm wired to tinker and to question.  I'm not obsessed
> with increasing speed, nor am I obsessed to get the ride over with.
> On brevets, when you ride fat 650B tires, you'll get a number of
> people on 700c road bikes ask you "Why would you want to slow yourself
> down like that?"  They just assume that my 584x41s are absolute pigs.
> I've never been more comfortable on a performance bike than I am on my
> Hilsen with fat 584s.  At the end of a 10 hour day, my back, rear end,
> arms shoulders, hands and feet all feel great.  Once my legs catch up
> I have no doubts that my body could handle the longer events.  Having
> found a new plateau in comfort, now I want to test the assertion that
> my fat 650B tires are actually significantly FASTER than 700x28s.
> It's hard for me to believe it, so I need to see it for myself.  What
> I know is that my Hilsen feels much faster than my Hillborne, even
> though it has much fatter tires (650x41 vs 700x33).  That equation has
> too many variables for sure.
>
> It would be fascinating to me to find that the more comfortable tire
> choice is also the faster tire choice.  I don't know if that's what
> I'll find.  I expect that the data will be inconclusive, too close to
> call.  For sure I expect I'll continue using fat 650Bs for all my long
> distance events.  The comfort is way too much for me to pass up.  A
> lot of comfort is bike fit, though, and the 700x28 wheels won't change
> any of my fit points on the bike, so maybe I'll feel just as good.
> Who knows?  Curious folks like me think this way.
>
> Speaking of curious people being wired differently...If you really
> want to blow your mind, ask Grant what the perfect rim diameter is.
> He has an answer that he will defend emphatically and his perfect size
> rim has never been produced.  So, don't misconstrue Grant's 'enjoy the
> ride' rhetoric to suggest that Grant doesn't sweat the details on
> bikes.  He's one hundred times more technically nitpicky than me, and
> I think that's a very good thing, and one of the myriad reasons I like
> buying Rivendells.
>
> On Feb 25, 11:34 am, Peter Pesce  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Very cool idea to have one bike that works for both sizes, and a
> > stroke of minor genius to think of up-sizing the 650B bike, rather
> > than down-sizing a 700. I was hoping I could convert my Sam to 650B,
> > just to see what all the fuss is about, but it only took a few
> > measurements to see that it wouldn't really work.
>
> > I am curious to see your test results, but can't see how they'd be in
> > any way meaningful - jut too many variables.
>
> > I can see how speed matters on a brevet, and to some degree on commute
> > (especially a 35-miler) but I, too, keep coming back to Grant's
> > question (paraphrased): "If we all like riding so much, why are we
> > always in such a hurry to get it over with as fast as possible?"
>
> > On Feb 25, 1:04 pm, William  wrote:
>
> > > OK so I made a sort of self-indulgent mod to my A. Homer Hilsen.  I
> > > set up the normally 650B bike with a 700C wheelset and short reach
> > > brakes.  It's a wheelset I already had, and a short-reach brakeset I
> > > already had.  So now I have a single bike that can easily be taken on
> > > a ride with 650Bx(whatever) tires one day, and taken on the same ride
> > > with 700x(23-28) tires the next, or whatever.
>
> > > I bought the bike because of the feel of 650B, and I'm thrilled with
> > > it.  Like most of you, I've been skeptical of the claims from Jan H
> > > and others that fat tires are faster.  That said, on brevets in the
> > > last couple of months, I've been surprised at how quickly I catch and
> > > pass riders on coasting descents when I'm on 650x38 at 50psi and they
> > > are on 700x23 and I presume 90-110psi.  That's anecdotal, and doesn't
> > > necessarily mean anything, but it was surprising.
>
> > > So, now I think it will be fun to do a pseudo-scientific spot
> > > comparison between 650B and 700C.  My commute to work is a 35-mile
> > > hilly ride through the east bay hills from El Cerrito to South
> > > Hayward.  A good chunk of that is a non-stop stretch.  I can usually
> > > get fr

[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[doug peterson]

My guess is the 700s will seem faster but the 650s will actually be
quicker.  The difficulty will be that you know which set's on the
bike.  I can't imagine there being a significant difference in speed
but I can see how you could detect a significant difference in
comfort.  I think the comfort-being-faster thing kicks in when you're
on the bike for hours and won't come into play on your daily commute.
It'll be interesting to see the actual results.

dougP

On Feb 25, 10:04 am, William  wrote:
> OK so I made a sort of self-indulgent mod to my A. Homer Hilsen.  I
> set up the normally 650B bike with a 700C wheelset and short reach
> brakes.  It's a wheelset I already had, and a short-reach brakeset I
> already had.  So now I have a single bike that can easily be taken on
> a ride with 650Bx(whatever) tires one day, and taken on the same ride
> with 700x(23-28) tires the next, or whatever.
>
> I bought the bike because of the feel of 650B, and I'm thrilled with
> it.  Like most of you, I've been skeptical of the claims from Jan H
> and others that fat tires are faster.  That said, on brevets in the
> last couple of months, I've been surprised at how quickly I catch and
> pass riders on coasting descents when I'm on 650x38 at 50psi and they
> are on 700x23 and I presume 90-110psi.  That's anecdotal, and doesn't
> necessarily mean anything, but it was surprising.
>
> So, now I think it will be fun to do a pseudo-scientific spot
> comparison between 650B and 700C.  My commute to work is a 35-mile
> hilly ride through the east bay hills from El Cerrito to South
> Hayward.  A good chunk of that is a non-stop stretch.  I can usually
> get from my front door to a traffic signal in front of Castro Valley
> High School without stopping or putting my foot down.  The next 10
> times I do this commute, I'm going to alternate between the two
> wheelsets, and record my time for the same non-stop stretch for these
> ten rides.  The 650B tires will be hetres at 50/45psi, and the 700C
> tires will be continental gatorskin 28s at 85/80psi.
>
> Anyone care to guess which will seem faster?  Too close to call?
> Impossible to test unless the rider is blind to the wheel
> configuration?  Any advice on keeping the data clean?

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[William]

Tarantulas.

On Feb 25, 12:20 pm, "cyclotour...@gmail.com" 
wrote:
> textiles?
>
> On Feb 25, 12:13 pm, Michael_S  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dang, Bill you are driving me down the road to ruin. All this talk
> > about Hetres being faster/smoother/better is making me want a 650B
> > bike even more.
> > After convincing my SO that I was not fickle and I could keep a bike
> > for at least a few years, I'm seriously contemplating some 650B
> > experiments of my own. (Must be that Engineer/Scientist brain
> > phenomenon).
>
> > At least you didn't mention the T word!
>
> > ~Mike
>
> > On Feb 25, 12:02 pm, Michael_S  wrote:
>
> > > On my own I don't care how fast I go. My goal is to enjoy the
> > > outdoors, exercise my body or to get somewhere. When I ride with
> > > others I want to go fast enough to stay with the group, or perhaps
> > > meet some time limit in an organized ride.
> > > And I still enjoy pushing my body and going fast, sometimes (actually
> > > most of the time)
> > > It also means I can cover a greater distance and see more.
>
> > > I don't see those as bad things. Each person has their own personal
> > > goals and preferences.  If I'm happy with mine than it doesn't matter
> > > what others think
>
> > > ~Mike
>
> > > On Feb 25, 11:34 am, Peter Pesce  wrote:
>
> > > > Very cool idea to have one bike that works for both sizes, and a
> > > > stroke of minor genius to think of up-sizing the 650B bike, rather
> > > > than down-sizing a 700. I was hoping I could convert my Sam to 650B,
> > > > just to see what all the fuss is about, but it only took a few
> > > > measurements to see that it wouldn't really work.
>
> > > > I am curious to see your test results, but can't see how they'd be in
> > > > any way meaningful - jut too many variables.
>
> > > > I can see how speed matters on a brevet, and to some degree on commute
> > > > (especially a 35-miler) but I, too, keep coming back to Grant's
> > > > question (paraphrased): "If we all like riding so much, why are we
> > > > always in such a hurry to get it over with as fast as possible?"
>
> > > > On Feb 25, 1:04 pm, William  wrote:
>
> > > > > OK so I made a sort of self-indulgent mod to my A. Homer Hilsen.  I
> > > > > set up the normally 650B bike with a 700C wheelset and short reach
> > > > > brakes.  It's a wheelset I already had, and a short-reach brakeset I
> > > > > already had.  So now I have a single bike that can easily be taken on
> > > > > a ride with 650Bx(whatever) tires one day, and taken on the same ride
> > > > > with 700x(23-28) tires the next, or whatever.
>
> > > > > I bought the bike because of the feel of 650B, and I'm thrilled with
> > > > > it.  Like most of you, I've been skeptical of the claims from Jan H
> > > > > and others that fat tires are faster.  That said, on brevets in the
> > > > > last couple of months, I've been surprised at how quickly I catch and
> > > > > pass riders on coasting descents when I'm on 650x38 at 50psi and they
> > > > > are on 700x23 and I presume 90-110psi.  That's anecdotal, and doesn't
> > > > > necessarily mean anything, but it was surprising.
>
> > > > > So, now I think it will be fun to do a pseudo-scientific spot
> > > > > comparison between 650B and 700C.  My commute to work is a 35-mile
> > > > > hilly ride through the east bay hills from El Cerrito to South
> > > > > Hayward.  A good chunk of that is a non-stop stretch.  I can usually
> > > > > get from my front door to a traffic signal in front of Castro Valley
> > > > > High School without stopping or putting my foot down.  The next 10
> > > > > times I do this commute, I'm going to alternate between the two
> > > > > wheelsets, and record my time for the same non-stop stretch for these
> > > > > ten rides.  The 650B tires will be hetres at 50/45psi, and the 700C
> > > > > tires will be continental gatorskin 28s at 85/80psi.
>
> > > > > Anyone care to guess which will seem faster?  Too close to call?
> > > > > Impossible to test unless the rider is blind to the wheel
> > > > > configuration?  Any advice on keeping the data clean?- Hide quoted 
> > > > > text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[cyclotour...@gmail.com]

textiles?

On Feb 25, 12:13 pm, Michael_S  wrote:
> Dang, Bill you are driving me down the road to ruin. All this talk
> about Hetres being faster/smoother/better is making me want a 650B
> bike even more.
> After convincing my SO that I was not fickle and I could keep a bike
> for at least a few years, I'm seriously contemplating some 650B
> experiments of my own. (Must be that Engineer/Scientist brain
> phenomenon).
>
> At least you didn't mention the T word!
>
> ~Mike
>
> On Feb 25, 12:02 pm, Michael_S  wrote:
>
> > On my own I don't care how fast I go. My goal is to enjoy the
> > outdoors, exercise my body or to get somewhere. When I ride with
> > others I want to go fast enough to stay with the group, or perhaps
> > meet some time limit in an organized ride.
> > And I still enjoy pushing my body and going fast, sometimes (actually
> > most of the time)
> > It also means I can cover a greater distance and see more.
>
> > I don't see those as bad things. Each person has their own personal
> > goals and preferences.  If I'm happy with mine than it doesn't matter
> > what others think
>
> > ~Mike
>
> > On Feb 25, 11:34 am, Peter Pesce  wrote:
>
> > > Very cool idea to have one bike that works for both sizes, and a
> > > stroke of minor genius to think of up-sizing the 650B bike, rather
> > > than down-sizing a 700. I was hoping I could convert my Sam to 650B,
> > > just to see what all the fuss is about, but it only took a few
> > > measurements to see that it wouldn't really work.
>
> > > I am curious to see your test results, but can't see how they'd be in
> > > any way meaningful - jut too many variables.
>
> > > I can see how speed matters on a brevet, and to some degree on commute
> > > (especially a 35-miler) but I, too, keep coming back to Grant's
> > > question (paraphrased): "If we all like riding so much, why are we
> > > always in such a hurry to get it over with as fast as possible?"
>
> > > On Feb 25, 1:04 pm, William  wrote:
>
> > > > OK so I made a sort of self-indulgent mod to my A. Homer Hilsen.  I
> > > > set up the normally 650B bike with a 700C wheelset and short reach
> > > > brakes.  It's a wheelset I already had, and a short-reach brakeset I
> > > > already had.  So now I have a single bike that can easily be taken on
> > > > a ride with 650Bx(whatever) tires one day, and taken on the same ride
> > > > with 700x(23-28) tires the next, or whatever.
>
> > > > I bought the bike because of the feel of 650B, and I'm thrilled with
> > > > it.  Like most of you, I've been skeptical of the claims from Jan H
> > > > and others that fat tires are faster.  That said, on brevets in the
> > > > last couple of months, I've been surprised at how quickly I catch and
> > > > pass riders on coasting descents when I'm on 650x38 at 50psi and they
> > > > are on 700x23 and I presume 90-110psi.  That's anecdotal, and doesn't
> > > > necessarily mean anything, but it was surprising.
>
> > > > So, now I think it will be fun to do a pseudo-scientific spot
> > > > comparison between 650B and 700C.  My commute to work is a 35-mile
> > > > hilly ride through the east bay hills from El Cerrito to South
> > > > Hayward.  A good chunk of that is a non-stop stretch.  I can usually
> > > > get from my front door to a traffic signal in front of Castro Valley
> > > > High School without stopping or putting my foot down.  The next 10
> > > > times I do this commute, I'm going to alternate between the two
> > > > wheelsets, and record my time for the same non-stop stretch for these
> > > > ten rides.  The 650B tires will be hetres at 50/45psi, and the 700C
> > > > tires will be continental gatorskin 28s at 85/80psi.
>
> > > > Anyone care to guess which will seem faster?  Too close to call?
> > > > Impossible to test unless the rider is blind to the wheel
> > > > configuration?  Any advice on keeping the data clean?- Hide quoted text 
> > > > -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[Michael_S]

Dang, Bill you are driving me down the road to ruin. All this talk
about Hetres being faster/smoother/better is making me want a 650B
bike even more.
After convincing my SO that I was not fickle and I could keep a bike
for at least a few years, I'm seriously contemplating some 650B
experiments of my own. (Must be that Engineer/Scientist brain
phenomenon).

At least you didn't mention the T word!

~Mike


On Feb 25, 12:02 pm, Michael_S  wrote:
> On my own I don't care how fast I go. My goal is to enjoy the
> outdoors, exercise my body or to get somewhere. When I ride with
> others I want to go fast enough to stay with the group, or perhaps
> meet some time limit in an organized ride.
> And I still enjoy pushing my body and going fast, sometimes (actually
> most of the time)
> It also means I can cover a greater distance and see more.
>
> I don't see those as bad things. Each person has their own personal
> goals and preferences.  If I'm happy with mine than it doesn't matter
> what others think
>
> ~Mike
>
> On Feb 25, 11:34 am, Peter Pesce  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Very cool idea to have one bike that works for both sizes, and a
> > stroke of minor genius to think of up-sizing the 650B bike, rather
> > than down-sizing a 700. I was hoping I could convert my Sam to 650B,
> > just to see what all the fuss is about, but it only took a few
> > measurements to see that it wouldn't really work.
>
> > I am curious to see your test results, but can't see how they'd be in
> > any way meaningful - jut too many variables.
>
> > I can see how speed matters on a brevet, and to some degree on commute
> > (especially a 35-miler) but I, too, keep coming back to Grant's
> > question (paraphrased): "If we all like riding so much, why are we
> > always in such a hurry to get it over with as fast as possible?"
>
> > On Feb 25, 1:04 pm, William  wrote:
>
> > > OK so I made a sort of self-indulgent mod to my A. Homer Hilsen.  I
> > > set up the normally 650B bike with a 700C wheelset and short reach
> > > brakes.  It's a wheelset I already had, and a short-reach brakeset I
> > > already had.  So now I have a single bike that can easily be taken on
> > > a ride with 650Bx(whatever) tires one day, and taken on the same ride
> > > with 700x(23-28) tires the next, or whatever.
>
> > > I bought the bike because of the feel of 650B, and I'm thrilled with
> > > it.  Like most of you, I've been skeptical of the claims from Jan H
> > > and others that fat tires are faster.  That said, on brevets in the
> > > last couple of months, I've been surprised at how quickly I catch and
> > > pass riders on coasting descents when I'm on 650x38 at 50psi and they
> > > are on 700x23 and I presume 90-110psi.  That's anecdotal, and doesn't
> > > necessarily mean anything, but it was surprising.
>
> > > So, now I think it will be fun to do a pseudo-scientific spot
> > > comparison between 650B and 700C.  My commute to work is a 35-mile
> > > hilly ride through the east bay hills from El Cerrito to South
> > > Hayward.  A good chunk of that is a non-stop stretch.  I can usually
> > > get from my front door to a traffic signal in front of Castro Valley
> > > High School without stopping or putting my foot down.  The next 10
> > > times I do this commute, I'm going to alternate between the two
> > > wheelsets, and record my time for the same non-stop stretch for these
> > > ten rides.  The 650B tires will be hetres at 50/45psi, and the 700C
> > > tires will be continental gatorskin 28s at 85/80psi.
>
> > > Anyone care to guess which will seem faster?  Too close to call?
> > > Impossible to test unless the rider is blind to the wheel
> > > configuration?  Any advice on keeping the data clean?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[Michael_S]

On my own I don't care how fast I go. My goal is to enjoy the
outdoors, exercise my body or to get somewhere. When I ride with
others I want to go fast enough to stay with the group, or perhaps
meet some time limit in an organized ride.
And I still enjoy pushing my body and going fast, sometimes (actually
most of the time)
It also means I can cover a greater distance and see more.

I don't see those as bad things. Each person has their own personal
goals and preferences.  If I'm happy with mine than it doesn't matter
what others think

~Mike

On Feb 25, 11:34 am, Peter Pesce  wrote:
> Very cool idea to have one bike that works for both sizes, and a
> stroke of minor genius to think of up-sizing the 650B bike, rather
> than down-sizing a 700. I was hoping I could convert my Sam to 650B,
> just to see what all the fuss is about, but it only took a few
> measurements to see that it wouldn't really work.
>
> I am curious to see your test results, but can't see how they'd be in
> any way meaningful - jut too many variables.
>
> I can see how speed matters on a brevet, and to some degree on commute
> (especially a 35-miler) but I, too, keep coming back to Grant's
> question (paraphrased): "If we all like riding so much, why are we
> always in such a hurry to get it over with as fast as possible?"
>
> On Feb 25, 1:04 pm, William  wrote:
>
>
>
> > OK so I made a sort of self-indulgent mod to my A. Homer Hilsen.  I
> > set up the normally 650B bike with a 700C wheelset and short reach
> > brakes.  It's a wheelset I already had, and a short-reach brakeset I
> > already had.  So now I have a single bike that can easily be taken on
> > a ride with 650Bx(whatever) tires one day, and taken on the same ride
> > with 700x(23-28) tires the next, or whatever.
>
> > I bought the bike because of the feel of 650B, and I'm thrilled with
> > it.  Like most of you, I've been skeptical of the claims from Jan H
> > and others that fat tires are faster.  That said, on brevets in the
> > last couple of months, I've been surprised at how quickly I catch and
> > pass riders on coasting descents when I'm on 650x38 at 50psi and they
> > are on 700x23 and I presume 90-110psi.  That's anecdotal, and doesn't
> > necessarily mean anything, but it was surprising.
>
> > So, now I think it will be fun to do a pseudo-scientific spot
> > comparison between 650B and 700C.  My commute to work is a 35-mile
> > hilly ride through the east bay hills from El Cerrito to South
> > Hayward.  A good chunk of that is a non-stop stretch.  I can usually
> > get from my front door to a traffic signal in front of Castro Valley
> > High School without stopping or putting my foot down.  The next 10
> > times I do this commute, I'm going to alternate between the two
> > wheelsets, and record my time for the same non-stop stretch for these
> > ten rides.  The 650B tires will be hetres at 50/45psi, and the 700C
> > tires will be continental gatorskin 28s at 85/80psi.
>
> > Anyone care to guess which will seem faster?  Too close to call?
> > Impossible to test unless the rider is blind to the wheel
> > configuration?  Any advice on keeping the data clean?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[William]

Pete

I'm a scientist and an engineer, by profession and by DNA.  I'm wired
to be curious.  I'm wired to tinker and to question.  I'm not obsessed
with increasing speed, nor am I obsessed to get the ride over with.
On brevets, when you ride fat 650B tires, you'll get a number of
people on 700c road bikes ask you "Why would you want to slow yourself
down like that?"  They just assume that my 584x41s are absolute pigs.
I've never been more comfortable on a performance bike than I am on my
Hilsen with fat 584s.  At the end of a 10 hour day, my back, rear end,
arms shoulders, hands and feet all feel great.  Once my legs catch up
I have no doubts that my body could handle the longer events.  Having
found a new plateau in comfort, now I want to test the assertion that
my fat 650B tires are actually significantly FASTER than 700x28s.
It's hard for me to believe it, so I need to see it for myself.  What
I know is that my Hilsen feels much faster than my Hillborne, even
though it has much fatter tires (650x41 vs 700x33).  That equation has
too many variables for sure.

It would be fascinating to me to find that the more comfortable tire
choice is also the faster tire choice.  I don't know if that's what
I'll find.  I expect that the data will be inconclusive, too close to
call.  For sure I expect I'll continue using fat 650Bs for all my long
distance events.  The comfort is way too much for me to pass up.  A
lot of comfort is bike fit, though, and the 700x28 wheels won't change
any of my fit points on the bike, so maybe I'll feel just as good.
Who knows?  Curious folks like me think this way.

Speaking of curious people being wired differently...If you really
want to blow your mind, ask Grant what the perfect rim diameter is.
He has an answer that he will defend emphatically and his perfect size
rim has never been produced.  So, don't misconstrue Grant's 'enjoy the
ride' rhetoric to suggest that Grant doesn't sweat the details on
bikes.  He's one hundred times more technically nitpicky than me, and
I think that's a very good thing, and one of the myriad reasons I like
buying Rivendells.

On Feb 25, 11:34 am, Peter Pesce  wrote:
> Very cool idea to have one bike that works for both sizes, and a
> stroke of minor genius to think of up-sizing the 650B bike, rather
> than down-sizing a 700. I was hoping I could convert my Sam to 650B,
> just to see what all the fuss is about, but it only took a few
> measurements to see that it wouldn't really work.
>
> I am curious to see your test results, but can't see how they'd be in
> any way meaningful - jut too many variables.
>
> I can see how speed matters on a brevet, and to some degree on commute
> (especially a 35-miler) but I, too, keep coming back to Grant's
> question (paraphrased): "If we all like riding so much, why are we
> always in such a hurry to get it over with as fast as possible?"
>
> On Feb 25, 1:04 pm, William  wrote:
>
> > OK so I made a sort of self-indulgent mod to my A. Homer Hilsen.  I
> > set up the normally 650B bike with a 700C wheelset and short reach
> > brakes.  It's a wheelset I already had, and a short-reach brakeset I
> > already had.  So now I have a single bike that can easily be taken on
> > a ride with 650Bx(whatever) tires one day, and taken on the same ride
> > with 700x(23-28) tires the next, or whatever.
>
> > I bought the bike because of the feel of 650B, and I'm thrilled with
> > it.  Like most of you, I've been skeptical of the claims from Jan H
> > and others that fat tires are faster.  That said, on brevets in the
> > last couple of months, I've been surprised at how quickly I catch and
> > pass riders on coasting descents when I'm on 650x38 at 50psi and they
> > are on 700x23 and I presume 90-110psi.  That's anecdotal, and doesn't
> > necessarily mean anything, but it was surprising.
>
> > So, now I think it will be fun to do a pseudo-scientific spot
> > comparison between 650B and 700C.  My commute to work is a 35-mile
> > hilly ride through the east bay hills from El Cerrito to South
> > Hayward.  A good chunk of that is a non-stop stretch.  I can usually
> > get from my front door to a traffic signal in front of Castro Valley
> > High School without stopping or putting my foot down.  The next 10
> > times I do this commute, I'm going to alternate between the two
> > wheelsets, and record my time for the same non-stop stretch for these
> > ten rides.  The 650B tires will be hetres at 50/45psi, and the 700C
> > tires will be continental gatorskin 28s at 85/80psi.
>
> > Anyone care to guess which will seem faster?  Too close to call?
> > Impossible to test unless the rider is blind to the wheel
> > configuration?  Any advice on keeping the data clean?
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[Peter Pesce]

Very cool idea to have one bike that works for both sizes, and a
stroke of minor genius to think of up-sizing the 650B bike, rather
than down-sizing a 700. I was hoping I could convert my Sam to 650B,
just to see what all the fuss is about, but it only took a few
measurements to see that it wouldn't really work.

I am curious to see your test results, but can't see how they'd be in
any way meaningful - jut too many variables.

I can see how speed matters on a brevet, and to some degree on commute
(especially a 35-miler) but I, too, keep coming back to Grant's
question (paraphrased): "If we all like riding so much, why are we
always in such a hurry to get it over with as fast as possible?"

On Feb 25, 1:04 pm, William  wrote:
> OK so I made a sort of self-indulgent mod to my A. Homer Hilsen.  I
> set up the normally 650B bike with a 700C wheelset and short reach
> brakes.  It's a wheelset I already had, and a short-reach brakeset I
> already had.  So now I have a single bike that can easily be taken on
> a ride with 650Bx(whatever) tires one day, and taken on the same ride
> with 700x(23-28) tires the next, or whatever.
>
> I bought the bike because of the feel of 650B, and I'm thrilled with
> it.  Like most of you, I've been skeptical of the claims from Jan H
> and others that fat tires are faster.  That said, on brevets in the
> last couple of months, I've been surprised at how quickly I catch and
> pass riders on coasting descents when I'm on 650x38 at 50psi and they
> are on 700x23 and I presume 90-110psi.  That's anecdotal, and doesn't
> necessarily mean anything, but it was surprising.
>
> So, now I think it will be fun to do a pseudo-scientific spot
> comparison between 650B and 700C.  My commute to work is a 35-mile
> hilly ride through the east bay hills from El Cerrito to South
> Hayward.  A good chunk of that is a non-stop stretch.  I can usually
> get from my front door to a traffic signal in front of Castro Valley
> High School without stopping or putting my foot down.  The next 10
> times I do this commute, I'm going to alternate between the two
> wheelsets, and record my time for the same non-stop stretch for these
> ten rides.  The 650B tires will be hetres at 50/45psi, and the 700C
> tires will be continental gatorskin 28s at 85/80psi.
>
> Anyone care to guess which will seem faster?  Too close to call?
> Impossible to test unless the rider is blind to the wheel
> configuration?  Any advice on keeping the data clean?

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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[William]

Ummmwhat?

On Feb 25, 10:30 am, Kelly Sleeper  wrote:
> Thing is, to make my 700x50's as fast as 700x23's I need to air the 700x50's 
> up to the same harsh ride.  I can never get the 700x23's as comfortable 
> though as I would pinch flat.  
> Take into account that tiny tires usually go with tiny wheels and spin weight 
> does make a difference.
>
> My opinion is that 700x25's are probably faster at x weight bike rider than 
> 700x23 but 700x28's are not faster until weight is increased. If I weigh 
> 75lbs 700x23's are probably faster .. Lighter. More aero etc.  Not until we 
> add weight and side wall flex will larger tires be faster.
>
> Then again if I save 15 minutes over a 25 mile ride have I really lost 
> anything?
>
> Touring and tires and bikes and we still want to talk weight and speed.  I 
> don't get it.  I do but I keep reminding myself that it's not a race.  Only 
> place I lose speed is all out efforts casual rides i se e no difference.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 25, 2011, at 12:14 PM, Montclair BobbyB  
> wrote:
>
> > William you're too funny... I'll make an unscientific guess that
> > you'll be ever so slightly faster on the 700 skinnies, but not nearly
> > enough to offset the comfort and stylishness of the Hetres.  Please
> > post pictures of both...
>
> > BB
>
> > On Feb 25, 1:04 pm, William  wrote:
> >> OK so I made a sort of self-indulgent mod to my A. Homer Hilsen.  I
> >> set up the normally 650B bike with a 700C wheelset and short reach
> >> brakes.  It's a wheelset I already had, and a short-reach brakeset I
> >> already had.  So now I have a single bike that can easily be taken on
> >> a ride with 650Bx(whatever) tires one day, and taken on the same ride
> >> with 700x(23-28) tires the next, or whatever.
>
> >> I bought the bike because of the feel of 650B, and I'm thrilled with
> >> it.  Like most of you, I've been skeptical of the claims from Jan H
> >> and others that fat tires are faster.  That said, on brevets in the
> >> last couple of months, I've been surprised at how quickly I catch and
> >> pass riders on coasting descents when I'm on 650x38 at 50psi and they
> >> are on 700x23 and I presume 90-110psi.  That's anecdotal, and doesn't
> >> necessarily mean anything, but it was surprising.
>
> >> So, now I think it will be fun to do a pseudo-scientific spot
> >> comparison between 650B and 700C.  My commute to work is a 35-mile
> >> hilly ride through the east bay hills from El Cerrito to South
> >> Hayward.  A good chunk of that is a non-stop stretch.  I can usually
> >> get from my front door to a traffic signal in front of Castro Valley
> >> High School without stopping or putting my foot down.  The next 10
> >> times I do this commute, I'm going to alternate between the two
> >> wheelsets, and record my time for the same non-stop stretch for these
> >> ten rides.  The 650B tires will be hetres at 50/45psi, and the 700C
> >> tires will be continental gatorskin 28s at 85/80psi.
>
> >> Anyone care to guess which will seem faster?  Too close to call?
> >> Impossible to test unless the rider is blind to the wheel
> >> configuration?  Any advice on keeping the data clean?
>
> > --
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>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[Kelly Sleeper]

Thing is, to make my 700x50's as fast as 700x23's I need to air the 700x50's up 
to the same harsh ride.  I can never get the 700x23's as comfortable though as 
I would pinch flat.  
Take into account that tiny tires usually go with tiny wheels and spin weight 
does make a difference.

My opinion is that 700x25's are probably faster at x weight bike rider than 
700x23 but 700x28's are not faster until weight is increased. If I weigh 75lbs 
700x23's are probably faster .. Lighter. More aero etc.  Not until we add 
weight and side wall flex will larger tires be faster.

Then again if I save 15 minutes over a 25 mile ride have I really lost anything?

Touring and tires and bikes and we still want to talk weight and speed.  I 
don't get it.  I do but I keep reminding myself that it's not a race.  Only 
place I lose speed is all out efforts casual rides i se e no difference.

 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 25, 2011, at 12:14 PM, Montclair BobbyB  
wrote:

> William you're too funny... I'll make an unscientific guess that
> you'll be ever so slightly faster on the 700 skinnies, but not nearly
> enough to offset the comfort and stylishness of the Hetres.  Please
> post pictures of both...
> 
> BB
> 
> On Feb 25, 1:04 pm, William  wrote:
>> OK so I made a sort of self-indulgent mod to my A. Homer Hilsen.  I
>> set up the normally 650B bike with a 700C wheelset and short reach
>> brakes.  It's a wheelset I already had, and a short-reach brakeset I
>> already had.  So now I have a single bike that can easily be taken on
>> a ride with 650Bx(whatever) tires one day, and taken on the same ride
>> with 700x(23-28) tires the next, or whatever.
>> 
>> I bought the bike because of the feel of 650B, and I'm thrilled with
>> it.  Like most of you, I've been skeptical of the claims from Jan H
>> and others that fat tires are faster.  That said, on brevets in the
>> last couple of months, I've been surprised at how quickly I catch and
>> pass riders on coasting descents when I'm on 650x38 at 50psi and they
>> are on 700x23 and I presume 90-110psi.  That's anecdotal, and doesn't
>> necessarily mean anything, but it was surprising.
>> 
>> So, now I think it will be fun to do a pseudo-scientific spot
>> comparison between 650B and 700C.  My commute to work is a 35-mile
>> hilly ride through the east bay hills from El Cerrito to South
>> Hayward.  A good chunk of that is a non-stop stretch.  I can usually
>> get from my front door to a traffic signal in front of Castro Valley
>> High School without stopping or putting my foot down.  The next 10
>> times I do this commute, I'm going to alternate between the two
>> wheelsets, and record my time for the same non-stop stretch for these
>> ten rides.  The 650B tires will be hetres at 50/45psi, and the 700C
>> tires will be continental gatorskin 28s at 85/80psi.
>> 
>> Anyone care to guess which will seem faster?  Too close to call?
>> Impossible to test unless the rider is blind to the wheel
>> configuration?  Any advice on keeping the data clean?
> 
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[RBW] Re: Warning: non-scientific experiment under construction (650B vs 700C)

[Montclair BobbyB]

William you're too funny... I'll make an unscientific guess that
you'll be ever so slightly faster on the 700 skinnies, but not nearly
enough to offset the comfort and stylishness of the Hetres.  Please
post pictures of both...

BB

On Feb 25, 1:04 pm, William  wrote:
> OK so I made a sort of self-indulgent mod to my A. Homer Hilsen.  I
> set up the normally 650B bike with a 700C wheelset and short reach
> brakes.  It's a wheelset I already had, and a short-reach brakeset I
> already had.  So now I have a single bike that can easily be taken on
> a ride with 650Bx(whatever) tires one day, and taken on the same ride
> with 700x(23-28) tires the next, or whatever.
>
> I bought the bike because of the feel of 650B, and I'm thrilled with
> it.  Like most of you, I've been skeptical of the claims from Jan H
> and others that fat tires are faster.  That said, on brevets in the
> last couple of months, I've been surprised at how quickly I catch and
> pass riders on coasting descents when I'm on 650x38 at 50psi and they
> are on 700x23 and I presume 90-110psi.  That's anecdotal, and doesn't
> necessarily mean anything, but it was surprising.
>
> So, now I think it will be fun to do a pseudo-scientific spot
> comparison between 650B and 700C.  My commute to work is a 35-mile
> hilly ride through the east bay hills from El Cerrito to South
> Hayward.  A good chunk of that is a non-stop stretch.  I can usually
> get from my front door to a traffic signal in front of Castro Valley
> High School without stopping or putting my foot down.  The next 10
> times I do this commute, I'm going to alternate between the two
> wheelsets, and record my time for the same non-stop stretch for these
> ten rides.  The 650B tires will be hetres at 50/45psi, and the 700C
> tires will be continental gatorskin 28s at 85/80psi.
>
> Anyone care to guess which will seem faster?  Too close to call?
> Impossible to test unless the rider is blind to the wheel
> configuration?  Any advice on keeping the data clean?

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