subject:"\[RBW\] Re\: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell\?"

[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-29 Thread rivrando

I bought a Riv Road frame in 94/95. This was before there was a custom
option. It's made from 753 tubing.  It rides GREAT. I use it on
randonneuring rides and have done as much as 600 km on it (in under 40
hours) Though Grant likes the english style of rear cycle bag (as do
I) I use a canvas handlebar bag and a small front rack with a VO fork
mounted decaleur and the bike handles fine. No great. I have since had
S & S couplings added  center pull brake braze ons. The parts package
has changed a few times but it has ended up with a 9 speed Campy
Centaur drive train with friction shifters and old style Specialized
cranks with a 33x46 chainring set up. 14x28 in the back and I've
ridden UP everything out there. Even gravel passes.

My wait was a couple of months. I hear it's a bit longer as well.
Good luck and enjoy the bike.

Andy
Seattle

On Oct 26, 7:15 am, Patrick in VT  wrote:
> On Oct 24, 12:54 am, benzzoy  wrote:
>
> >I believe Grant prefer rear racks but I'm hoping he'll design a frame/fork 
> >suitable for >a Berthoud or Acorn front bag; perhaps Grant and Mark 
> >(Nobilette) may even consent to brazing up a simple custom front rack. :)  . 
> >.. .
> > Finally, and this is way out there, I may ask if he is willing to
> > design the bike around the PegoRichie tubeset.
>
> sounds very much like my custom, right down to the tubes!  sweet.
>
> your post implies that perhaps some of your preferences might be
> vetoed?  how exactly does the riv custom process work?
>
> i realize that some designers/framebuilders do things "their" way and
> your either down with it or your not - and that's cool.  i have a lot
> of respect for that.
>
> but, if you have a clear, reasoned thoughts about what *you* want
> (front rack, spirit tubes, etc.), I don't think you should
> compromise.  it's *your* custom bike, afterall!
>
> in any event, I'm sure it will be a killer rig!

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-29 Thread Corwin


I'm in the queue for something relatively light (in the Rivendell
sense - not the MCRB sense) and nimble.

I have nothing against frames without decals - but I am looking
forward to having a custom bike with the Rivendell headbadge, Joe Bell
paint job, etc.

Corwin
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-28 Thread Mike


I don't know Jim, it's a slippery slope. Next thing you know we'll be
discussing planing...

On Oct 28, 10:28 am, CycloFiend  wrote:
> on 10/27/09 2:12 PM, Mike at [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>
> > Isn't fork trail one of those taboo subjects like politics and carbon
> > bashing?
>
> Among some groups perhaps, but I have high hopes for our ability to keep
> things in perspective.  ;^)
>
> - J
>
> --
> Jim Edgar
> [email protected]
>
> Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries -http://www.cyclofiend.com
> Current Classics - Cross Bikes
> Singlespeed - Working Bikes
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-28 Thread CycloFiend


on 10/27/09 2:12 PM, Mike at [email protected] wrote:

> 
> Isn't fork trail one of those taboo subjects like politics and carbon
> bashing?

Among some groups perhaps, but I have high hopes for our ability to keep
things in perspective.  ;^)

- J

-- 
Jim Edgar
[email protected]

Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes


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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread Jeff


Joel,
 While I know Jan served as a consultant in the design of the
Heron Randonneur (mentions it in BQ vol. 4 review), from the
information I'm gathering from this thread, I'm thinking he worked
with Todd Kuzma.  The last thing I want to do is spread misinformation
here.  I was assuming that the Herons were all Grant designed, but
that may well be only the Rally and the Wayfarer-- the road and
touring frames that my frame splits the difference between.


Jeff



On Oct 27, 4:41 pm, JoelMatthews  wrote:
> > The frame I'm basing my requests on was (I believe) a Grant designed Heron 
> > with Jan Heine's input as a
> > consultant.
>
> Did Grant and Jan Heine ever work together on any projects?  Those are
> two good bicycle minds but also two very opinionated minds as well.
> It sure would have been fun to listen in.  Kind of the bicycle
> equivalent of Robert Altman and John Ford getting together to make a
> film.
>
> On Oct 27, 12:57 pm, Jeff  wrote:
>
> > I'm of the same mind as Benz.  I don't think what I'm looking for will
> > conflict with GP's design philosphy.  The frame I'm basing my requests
> > on was (I believe) a Grant designed Heron with Jan Heine's input as a
> > consultant.  One of my favorite features is the 80mm bottom bracket
> > drop which seems to be right up there on Rivendell's list with keeping
> > your bars high.
>
> > I'm also going for the post mounted Paul Racers.  I rode with guy on a
> > red custom Rivendell who had the posts for Mafac Racers.  Fire Chief
> > from around Seattle named Andy-- great guy and a strong rider!
>
> > Doug, you make interesting points about French constructeur forks
> > designed for low trail so as to handle well with a front load.  The
> > fork rake on my Heron is 4.3 cm.  What do you think about that with
> > regard to trail?  The bike handles fine both with and without a
> > Berthoud bag.  I do get a little bit of shimmy while riding no hands
> > with rear low rider panniers added, but that's not my standard set up.
>
> > I've got a NOS Suntour V-GT Luxe rear derailleur (which Frank Berto
> > speaks highly of in The Dancing Chain) for the 7 speed drive train.
>
> > Jeff
>
> > On Oct 26, 10:45 pm, benzzoy  wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 26, 9:34 am, Bruce  wrote:
>
> > > > Grant says exactly that in his notes on custom bike ordering. He 
> > > > suggests that
> > > > you look at Rivs carefully to be sure that your interests align with 
> > > > the RBW gestalt.
>
> > > > "I absolutely listen to your wishes and input, and in fact require it, 
> > > > want it, and use
> > > > it. But ultimately it is our name that goes on the bike, so certain 
> > > > consistencies and
> > > > standards must be met, for it to bear our name. For that reason, before 
> > > > ordering a
> > > > Rivendell custom, it's important to familiarize yourself with our 
> > > > values and style,
> > > > and make sure we're a good match. "
>
> > > I'm familiar with that entry, and that's why I stated that I'll see if
> > > I can fit my nice-to-have list in.
>
> > > I do want a Rivendell fitted to me but I also have a preferred list of
> > > features, as a custom bike should.  If the items on the preferred list
> > > clashes with the Rivendell design, then I'll definitely go with
> > > whatever Grant is recommending since I do want the bike to handle,
> > > look and feel like a Rivendell.  Otherwise, why bother?
>
> > > Nevertheless, except for the PegoRichie tubing bit and maybe the front
> > > rack bias*, I believe the items on my list are quite aligned with the
> > > Rivendell philosophy.  In fact, I've already spoken to Grant a while
> > > ago about most of the items and he seemed quite agreeable to them.
> > > However, the longer the wait, the longer the list grows!  I'm certain
> > > and in fact expecting that Grant will remain his steadfast self and
> > > filter out that which will compromise his design.  Yes, this will be
> > > Grant's design for me. :>
>
> > > Cheers,
> > > Benz
>
> > > * this may be nothing at all since I'm not asking for a porteur
> > > bicycle!  I only want to carry a small front bag like a Berthoud
> > > GB2286, Acorn Boxy Rando Bag or Guu-watanabe Retro (if the CFO goes
> > > raving mad, LOL!)- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread PATRICK MOORE

On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>
>
> > I've got a NOS Suntour V-GT Luxe rear derailleur (which Frank Berto
> > speaks highly of in The Dancing Chain) for the 7 speed drive train.
>
> It was fine in its day, a revelation compared to the likes of the
> Campagnolo Gran Turismo.  I used one for many years.  Compared to
> current Shimano MTB offerings, it's outdated and a poor performer.
>

I agree with Steve, and more: compared even to much older Shimano offerings.
I used one of these on a commuter, then swapped it out for a
immediately-pre-indexing slant para long cage Shimano, and the Shimano was
decidedly better at shifting with less clatter and hesitation.


>
>
>
>
> >
>


-- 
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW at [email protected]
(505) 227-0523

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread JoelMatthews


I had no idea.  Maybe that means somewhere in a Hollywood vault exists
a film called "Stagecoach to Nashville"

Thanks for the links.

On Oct 27, 5:29 pm, "Rene Valbuena"  wrote:
> Oops. This reply should be for Joel.
>
> Yes, they did collaborate. One of Jan's rando bikes was a Rivendell.
>
> http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/BQRandonneurBike.pdf
>
> -- Rene
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [email protected]
>
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of JoelMatthews
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 2:42 PM
> To: RBW Owners Bunch
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?
>
> > The frame I'm basing my requests on was (I believe) a Grant designed Heron
> with Jan Heine's input as a
> > consultant.
>
> Did Grant and Jan Heine ever work together on any projects?  Those are
> two good bicycle minds but also two very opinionated minds as well.
> It sure would have been fun to listen in.  Kind of the bicycle
> equivalent of Robert Altman and John Ford getting together to make a
> film.
>
> On Oct 27, 12:57 pm, Jeff  wrote:
> > I'm of the same mind as Benz.  I don't think what I'm looking for will
> > conflict with GP's design philosphy.  The frame I'm basing my requests
> > on was (I believe) a Grant designed Heron with Jan Heine's input as a
> > consultant.  One of my favorite features is the 80mm bottom bracket
> > drop which seems to be right up there on Rivendell's list with keeping
> > your bars high.
>
> > I'm also going for the post mounted Paul Racers.  I rode with guy on a
> > red custom Rivendell who had the posts for Mafac Racers.  Fire Chief
> > from around Seattle named Andy-- great guy and a strong rider!
>
> > Doug, you make interesting points about French constructeur forks
> > designed for low trail so as to handle well with a front load.  The
> > fork rake on my Heron is 4.3 cm.  What do you think about that with
> > regard to trail?  The bike handles fine both with and without a
> > Berthoud bag.  I do get a little bit of shimmy while riding no hands
> > with rear low rider panniers added, but that's not my standard set up.
>
> > I've got a NOS Suntour V-GT Luxe rear derailleur (which Frank Berto
> > speaks highly of in The Dancing Chain) for the 7 speed drive train.
>
> > Jeff
>
> > On Oct 26, 10:45 pm, benzzoy  wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 26, 9:34 am, Bruce  wrote:
>
> > > > Grant says exactly that in his notes on custom bike ordering. He
> suggests that
> > > > you look at Rivs carefully to be sure that your interests align with
> the RBW gestalt.
>
> > > > "I absolutely listen to your wishes and input, and in fact require it,
> want it, and use
> > > > it. But ultimately it is our name that goes on the bike, so certain
> consistencies and
> > > > standards must be met, for it to bear our name. For that reason,
> before ordering a
> > > > Rivendell custom, it's important to familiarize yourself with our
> values and style,
> > > > and make sure we're a good match. "
>
> > > I'm familiar with that entry, and that's why I stated that I'll see if
> > > I can fit my nice-to-have list in.
>
> > > I do want a Rivendell fitted to me but I also have a preferred list of
> > > features, as a custom bike should.  If the items on the preferred list
> > > clashes with the Rivendell design, then I'll definitely go with
> > > whatever Grant is recommending since I do want the bike to handle,
> > > look and feel like a Rivendell.  Otherwise, why bother?
>
> > > Nevertheless, except for the PegoRichie tubing bit and maybe the front
> > > rack bias*, I believe the items on my list are quite aligned with the
> > > Rivendell philosophy.  In fact, I've already spoken to Grant a while
> > > ago about most of the items and he seemed quite agreeable to them.
> > > However, the longer the wait, the longer the list grows!  I'm certain
> > > and in fact expecting that Grant will remain his steadfast self and
> > > filter out that which will compromise his design.  Yes, this will be
> > > Grant's design for me. :>
>
> > > Cheers,
> > > Benz
>
> > > * this may be nothing at all since I'm not asking for a porteur
> > > bicycle!  I only want to carry a small front bag like a Berthoud
> > > GB2286, Acorn Boxy Rando Bag or Guu-watanabe Retro (if the CFO goes
> > > raving mad, LOL!)- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread Steve Palincsar


On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 15:22 -0700, Mike wrote:
> Here's a recent interview Bicycle Times did with Jan Heine. It's good.
> 
> http://www.bicycletimesmag.com/content/interview-bicycle-quarterlys-jan-heine

Excellent article.  Thanks!  




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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread Steve Palincsar


On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 15:23 -0700, Rene Valbuena wrote:
> Yes, they did collaborate. One of Jan's rando bikes was a Rivendell.
> 
> http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/BQRandonneurBike.pdf

Jan also wrote several articles for Riv Reader.  I'm not sure either
qualifies as "collaboration".




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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread Rene Valbuena


Oops. This reply should be for Joel.

Yes, they did collaborate. One of Jan's rando bikes was a Rivendell.

http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/BQRandonneurBike.pdf

-- Rene

-Original Message-
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of JoelMatthews
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 2:42 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch
Subject: [RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?


> The frame I'm basing my requests on was (I believe) a Grant designed Heron
with Jan Heine's input as a
> consultant.

Did Grant and Jan Heine ever work together on any projects?  Those are
two good bicycle minds but also two very opinionated minds as well.
It sure would have been fun to listen in.  Kind of the bicycle
equivalent of Robert Altman and John Ford getting together to make a
film.

On Oct 27, 12:57 pm, Jeff  wrote:
> I'm of the same mind as Benz.  I don't think what I'm looking for will
> conflict with GP's design philosphy.  The frame I'm basing my requests
> on was (I believe) a Grant designed Heron with Jan Heine's input as a
> consultant.  One of my favorite features is the 80mm bottom bracket
> drop which seems to be right up there on Rivendell's list with keeping
> your bars high.
>
> I'm also going for the post mounted Paul Racers.  I rode with guy on a
> red custom Rivendell who had the posts for Mafac Racers.  Fire Chief
> from around Seattle named Andy-- great guy and a strong rider!
>
> Doug, you make interesting points about French constructeur forks
> designed for low trail so as to handle well with a front load.  The
> fork rake on my Heron is 4.3 cm.  What do you think about that with
> regard to trail?  The bike handles fine both with and without a
> Berthoud bag.  I do get a little bit of shimmy while riding no hands
> with rear low rider panniers added, but that's not my standard set up.
>
> I've got a NOS Suntour V-GT Luxe rear derailleur (which Frank Berto
> speaks highly of in The Dancing Chain) for the 7 speed drive train.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Oct 26, 10:45 pm, benzzoy  wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 26, 9:34 am, Bruce  wrote:
>
> > > Grant says exactly that in his notes on custom bike ordering. He
suggests that
> > > you look at Rivs carefully to be sure that your interests align with
the RBW gestalt.
>
> > > "I absolutely listen to your wishes and input, and in fact require it,
want it, and use
> > > it. But ultimately it is our name that goes on the bike, so certain
consistencies and
> > > standards must be met, for it to bear our name. For that reason,
before ordering a
> > > Rivendell custom, it's important to familiarize yourself with our
values and style,
> > > and make sure we're a good match. "
>
> > I'm familiar with that entry, and that's why I stated that I'll see if
> > I can fit my nice-to-have list in.
>
> > I do want a Rivendell fitted to me but I also have a preferred list of
> > features, as a custom bike should.  If the items on the preferred list
> > clashes with the Rivendell design, then I'll definitely go with
> > whatever Grant is recommending since I do want the bike to handle,
> > look and feel like a Rivendell.  Otherwise, why bother?
>
> > Nevertheless, except for the PegoRichie tubing bit and maybe the front
> > rack bias*, I believe the items on my list are quite aligned with the
> > Rivendell philosophy.  In fact, I've already spoken to Grant a while
> > ago about most of the items and he seemed quite agreeable to them.
> > However, the longer the wait, the longer the list grows!  I'm certain
> > and in fact expecting that Grant will remain his steadfast self and
> > filter out that which will compromise his design.  Yes, this will be
> > Grant's design for me. :>
>
> > Cheers,
> > Benz
>
> > * this may be nothing at all since I'm not asking for a porteur
> > bicycle!  I only want to carry a small front bag like a Berthoud
> > GB2286, Acorn Boxy Rando Bag or Guu-watanabe Retro (if the CFO goes
> > raving mad, LOL!)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -




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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread Rene Valbuena


Yes, they did collaborate. One of Jan's rando bikes was a Rivendell.

http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/BQRandonneurBike.pdf

-- Rene

-Original Message-
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of CycloFiend
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 1:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?


on 10/27/09 10:49 AM, Jeff at [email protected] wrote:
 
> Okay, so it was a Kuzma project?  I think I got the last of these from
> Todd in May 2007 as he was shutting down Heron.  It looks to me like
> most production Rivendells (except the Ram) tend to have more rake
> (like 5 or 5.2) than I'm used to, so I may well get improved handling
> with a bag, though perhaps not at the level of Herses and Singers of
> old.

Not to open up an endlessly rehashed can o' worms, but the rake (offset) of
the fork itself is only one of the variables in determining fork trail. A
good calculator, such as JimG's will show how different values of HA, tire
size, etc., interact.

http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/trailcalc.php

And, fork trail itself is only one of the variables which determines the
ride of the bicycle. Opinions and experiences with high trail and low trail
has certainly generated a ton of posts on the topic (visit the ibob archives
for a couple days' worth of reading - let's not replicate it here.)  I think
it's tempting to focus just on that aspect, as far as bike handling is
concerned, but it is just a part of the bigger picture.  Changing one thing
- rake, trail, HA, bb height, wheelbase - changes everything, and there are
always tradeoffs.

Of course, the big variable of rider technique and position, plus the type
of terrrain and conditions in which one rides, plays a huge part.

- Jim

-- 
Jim Edgar
[email protected]

Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes

Send In Your Photos! - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines


"Nigel did some work for some of the other riders at Allied, onces who still
rode metal.  He hadn't liked it when Chevette had gone for a paper frame."
-- William Gibson, "Virtual Light"







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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread Mike


Here's a recent interview Bicycle Times did with Jan Heine. It's good.

http://www.bicycletimesmag.com/content/interview-bicycle-quarterlys-jan-heine

On Oct 27, 2:41 pm, JoelMatthews  wrote:
> > The frame I'm basing my requests on was (I believe) a Grant designed Heron 
> > with Jan Heine's input as a
> > consultant.
>
> Did Grant and Jan Heine ever work together on any projects?  Those are
> two good bicycle minds but also two very opinionated minds as well.
> It sure would have been fun to listen in.  Kind of the bicycle
> equivalent of Robert Altman and John Ford getting together to make a
> film.
>
> On Oct 27, 12:57 pm, Jeff  wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'm of the same mind as Benz.  I don't think what I'm looking for will
> > conflict with GP's design philosphy.  The frame I'm basing my requests
> > on was (I believe) a Grant designed Heron with Jan Heine's input as a
> > consultant.  One of my favorite features is the 80mm bottom bracket
> > drop which seems to be right up there on Rivendell's list with keeping
> > your bars high.
>
> > I'm also going for the post mounted Paul Racers.  I rode with guy on a
> > red custom Rivendell who had the posts for Mafac Racers.  Fire Chief
> > from around Seattle named Andy-- great guy and a strong rider!
>
> > Doug, you make interesting points about French constructeur forks
> > designed for low trail so as to handle well with a front load.  The
> > fork rake on my Heron is 4.3 cm.  What do you think about that with
> > regard to trail?  The bike handles fine both with and without a
> > Berthoud bag.  I do get a little bit of shimmy while riding no hands
> > with rear low rider panniers added, but that's not my standard set up.
>
> > I've got a NOS Suntour V-GT Luxe rear derailleur (which Frank Berto
> > speaks highly of in The Dancing Chain) for the 7 speed drive train.
>
> > Jeff
>
> > On Oct 26, 10:45 pm, benzzoy  wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 26, 9:34 am, Bruce  wrote:
>
> > > > Grant says exactly that in his notes on custom bike ordering. He 
> > > > suggests that
> > > > you look at Rivs carefully to be sure that your interests align with 
> > > > the RBW gestalt.
>
> > > > "I absolutely listen to your wishes and input, and in fact require it, 
> > > > want it, and use
> > > > it. But ultimately it is our name that goes on the bike, so certain 
> > > > consistencies and
> > > > standards must be met, for it to bear our name. For that reason, before 
> > > > ordering a
> > > > Rivendell custom, it's important to familiarize yourself with our 
> > > > values and style,
> > > > and make sure we're a good match. "
>
> > > I'm familiar with that entry, and that's why I stated that I'll see if
> > > I can fit my nice-to-have list in.
>
> > > I do want a Rivendell fitted to me but I also have a preferred list of
> > > features, as a custom bike should.  If the items on the preferred list
> > > clashes with the Rivendell design, then I'll definitely go with
> > > whatever Grant is recommending since I do want the bike to handle,
> > > look and feel like a Rivendell.  Otherwise, why bother?
>
> > > Nevertheless, except for the PegoRichie tubing bit and maybe the front
> > > rack bias*, I believe the items on my list are quite aligned with the
> > > Rivendell philosophy.  In fact, I've already spoken to Grant a while
> > > ago about most of the items and he seemed quite agreeable to them.
> > > However, the longer the wait, the longer the list grows!  I'm certain
> > > and in fact expecting that Grant will remain his steadfast self and
> > > filter out that which will compromise his design.  Yes, this will be
> > > Grant's design for me. :>
>
> > > Cheers,
> > > Benz
>
> > > * this may be nothing at all since I'm not asking for a porteur
> > > bicycle!  I only want to carry a small front bag like a Berthoud
> > > GB2286, Acorn Boxy Rando Bag or Guu-watanabe Retro (if the CFO goes
> > > raving mad, LOL!)- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread Mike


Isn't fork trail one of those taboo subjects like politics and carbon
bashing?

On Oct 27, 1:32 pm, CycloFiend  wrote:
> on 10/27/09 10:49 AM, Jeff at [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Okay, so it was a Kuzma project?  I think I got the last of these from
> > Todd in May 2007 as he was shutting down Heron.  It looks to me like
> > most production Rivendells (except the Ram) tend to have more rake
> > (like 5 or 5.2) than I'm used to, so I may well get improved handling
> > with a bag, though perhaps not at the level of Herses and Singers of
> > old.
>
> Not to open up an endlessly rehashed can o' worms, but the rake (offset) of
> the fork itself is only one of the variables in determining fork trail. A
> good calculator, such as JimG's will show how different values of HA, tire
> size, etc., interact.
>
> http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/trailcalc.php
>
> And, fork trail itself is only one of the variables which determines the
> ride of the bicycle. Opinions and experiences with high trail and low trail
> has certainly generated a ton of posts on the topic (visit the ibob archives
> for a couple days' worth of reading - let's not replicate it here.)  I think
> it's tempting to focus just on that aspect, as far as bike handling is
> concerned, but it is just a part of the bigger picture.  Changing one thing
> - rake, trail, HA, bb height, wheelbase - changes everything, and there are
> always tradeoffs.
>
> Of course, the big variable of rider technique and position, plus the type
> of terrrain and conditions in which one rides, plays a huge part.
>
> - Jim
>
> --
> Jim Edgar
> [email protected]
>
> Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries -http://www.cyclofiend.com
> Current Classics - Cross Bikes
> Singlespeed - Working Bikes
>
> Send In Your Photos! - Here's how:http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines
>
> "Nigel did some work for some of the other riders at Allied, onces who still
> rode metal.  He hadn't liked it when Chevette had gone for a paper frame."
> -- William Gibson, "Virtual Light"
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread JoelMatthews


> The frame I'm basing my requests on was (I believe) a Grant designed Heron 
> with Jan Heine's input as a
> consultant.

Did Grant and Jan Heine ever work together on any projects?  Those are
two good bicycle minds but also two very opinionated minds as well.
It sure would have been fun to listen in.  Kind of the bicycle
equivalent of Robert Altman and John Ford getting together to make a
film.

On Oct 27, 12:57 pm, Jeff  wrote:
> I'm of the same mind as Benz.  I don't think what I'm looking for will
> conflict with GP's design philosphy.  The frame I'm basing my requests
> on was (I believe) a Grant designed Heron with Jan Heine's input as a
> consultant.  One of my favorite features is the 80mm bottom bracket
> drop which seems to be right up there on Rivendell's list with keeping
> your bars high.
>
> I'm also going for the post mounted Paul Racers.  I rode with guy on a
> red custom Rivendell who had the posts for Mafac Racers.  Fire Chief
> from around Seattle named Andy-- great guy and a strong rider!
>
> Doug, you make interesting points about French constructeur forks
> designed for low trail so as to handle well with a front load.  The
> fork rake on my Heron is 4.3 cm.  What do you think about that with
> regard to trail?  The bike handles fine both with and without a
> Berthoud bag.  I do get a little bit of shimmy while riding no hands
> with rear low rider panniers added, but that's not my standard set up.
>
> I've got a NOS Suntour V-GT Luxe rear derailleur (which Frank Berto
> speaks highly of in The Dancing Chain) for the 7 speed drive train.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Oct 26, 10:45 pm, benzzoy  wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 26, 9:34 am, Bruce  wrote:
>
> > > Grant says exactly that in his notes on custom bike ordering. He suggests 
> > > that
> > > you look at Rivs carefully to be sure that your interests align with the 
> > > RBW gestalt.
>
> > > "I absolutely listen to your wishes and input, and in fact require it, 
> > > want it, and use
> > > it. But ultimately it is our name that goes on the bike, so certain 
> > > consistencies and
> > > standards must be met, for it to bear our name. For that reason, before 
> > > ordering a
> > > Rivendell custom, it's important to familiarize yourself with our values 
> > > and style,
> > > and make sure we're a good match. "
>
> > I'm familiar with that entry, and that's why I stated that I'll see if
> > I can fit my nice-to-have list in.
>
> > I do want a Rivendell fitted to me but I also have a preferred list of
> > features, as a custom bike should.  If the items on the preferred list
> > clashes with the Rivendell design, then I'll definitely go with
> > whatever Grant is recommending since I do want the bike to handle,
> > look and feel like a Rivendell.  Otherwise, why bother?
>
> > Nevertheless, except for the PegoRichie tubing bit and maybe the front
> > rack bias*, I believe the items on my list are quite aligned with the
> > Rivendell philosophy.  In fact, I've already spoken to Grant a while
> > ago about most of the items and he seemed quite agreeable to them.
> > However, the longer the wait, the longer the list grows!  I'm certain
> > and in fact expecting that Grant will remain his steadfast self and
> > filter out that which will compromise his design.  Yes, this will be
> > Grant's design for me. :>
>
> > Cheers,
> > Benz
>
> > * this may be nothing at all since I'm not asking for a porteur
> > bicycle!  I only want to carry a small front bag like a Berthoud
> > GB2286, Acorn Boxy Rando Bag or Guu-watanabe Retro (if the CFO goes
> > raving mad, LOL!)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread CycloFiend


on 10/27/09 10:49 AM, Jeff at [email protected] wrote:
 
> Okay, so it was a Kuzma project?  I think I got the last of these from
> Todd in May 2007 as he was shutting down Heron.  It looks to me like
> most production Rivendells (except the Ram) tend to have more rake
> (like 5 or 5.2) than I'm used to, so I may well get improved handling
> with a bag, though perhaps not at the level of Herses and Singers of
> old.

Not to open up an endlessly rehashed can o' worms, but the rake (offset) of
the fork itself is only one of the variables in determining fork trail. A
good calculator, such as JimG's will show how different values of HA, tire
size, etc., interact.

http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/trailcalc.php

And, fork trail itself is only one of the variables which determines the
ride of the bicycle. Opinions and experiences with high trail and low trail
has certainly generated a ton of posts on the topic (visit the ibob archives
for a couple days' worth of reading - let's not replicate it here.)  I think
it's tempting to focus just on that aspect, as far as bike handling is
concerned, but it is just a part of the bigger picture.  Changing one thing
- rake, trail, HA, bb height, wheelbase - changes everything, and there are
always tradeoffs.

Of course, the big variable of rider technique and position, plus the type
of terrrain and conditions in which one rides, plays a huge part.

- Jim

-- 
Jim Edgar
[email protected]

Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes

Send In Your Photos! - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines


"Nigel did some work for some of the other riders at Allied, onces who still
rode metal.  He hadn't liked it when Chevette had gone for a paper frame."
-- William Gibson, "Virtual Light"



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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread Scott G.


When I was looking for a custom, I talked to 3 builders all were OK
with leaving the d/t and seat tube markings off the bikes.

I did decide to have the markings put on, the design of the bike
just looked better with them.

There was an interesting article in the NYT recently about how brands
were important to the owner but of little to no interest to people
around them.
Which tracks with my experience with bikes, almost no ever asks a
question
about the bike brand, some times people figure the name on the d/t is
mine.

Scott, who's last name isn't Kvale.
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread Jeff


Okay, so it was a Kuzma project?  I think I got the last of these from
Todd in May 2007 as he was shutting down Heron.  It looks to me like
most production Rivendells (except the Ram) tend to have more rake
(like 5 or 5.2) than I'm used to, so I may well get improved handling
with a bag, though perhaps not at the level of Herses and Singers of
old.

Jeff


On Oct 27, 1:31 pm, Doug Van Cleve  wrote:
> Hey Jeff,
>
> 4.3cm is not a lot of fork rake.  I think a lot of the low trail bikes have
> 6cm or so.  I am pretty sure the Heron Randonneur was Tod Kuzma's project
> and that the geometry was not tweaked to account for the front rack.  I
> think he basically spec'ed the frame with racks and fenders included and
> that is what made it the Randonneur...
>
> Regards, Doug
>
> On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Jeff  wrote:
>
> > I'm of the same mind as Benz.  I don't think what I'm looking for will
> > conflict with GP's design philosphy.  The frame I'm basing my requests
> > on was (I believe) a Grant designed Heron with Jan Heine's input as a
> > consultant.  One of my favorite features is the 80mm bottom bracket
> > drop which seems to be right up there on Rivendell's list with keeping
> > your bars high.
>
> > I'm also going for the post mounted Paul Racers.  I rode with guy on a
> > red custom Rivendell who had the posts for Mafac Racers.  Fire Chief
> > from around Seattle named Andy-- great guy and a strong rider!
>
> > Doug, you make interesting points about French constructeur forks
> > designed for low trail so as to handle well with a front load.  The
> > fork rake on my Heron is 4.3 cm.  What do you think about that with
> > regard to trail?  The bike handles fine both with and without a
> > Berthoud bag.  I do get a little bit of shimmy while riding no hands
> > with rear low rider panniers added, but that's not my standard set up.
>
> > I've got a NOS Suntour V-GT Luxe rear derailleur (which Frank Berto
> > speaks highly of in The Dancing Chain) for the 7 speed drive train.
>
> > Jeff
>
> > On Oct 26, 10:45 pm, benzzoy  wrote:
> > > On Oct 26, 9:34 am, Bruce  wrote:
>
> > > > Grant says exactly that in his notes on custom bike ordering. He
> > suggests that
> > > > you look at Rivs carefully to be sure that your interests align with
> > the RBW gestalt.
>
> > > > "I absolutely listen to your wishes and input, and in fact require it,
> > want it, and use
> > > > it. But ultimately it is our name that goes on the bike, so certain
> > consistencies and
> > > > standards must be met, for it to bear our name. For that reason, before
> > ordering a
> > > > Rivendell custom, it's important to familiarize yourself with our
> > values and style,
> > > > and make sure we're a good match. "
>
> > > I'm familiar with that entry, and that's why I stated that I'll see if
> > > I can fit my nice-to-have list in.
>
> > > I do want a Rivendell fitted to me but I also have a preferred list of
> > > features, as a custom bike should.  If the items on the preferred list
> > > clashes with the Rivendell design, then I'll definitely go with
> > > whatever Grant is recommending since I do want the bike to handle,
> > > look and feel like a Rivendell.  Otherwise, why bother?
>
> > > Nevertheless, except for the PegoRichie tubing bit and maybe the front
> > > rack bias*, I believe the items on my list are quite aligned with the
> > > Rivendell philosophy.  In fact, I've already spoken to Grant a while
> > > ago about most of the items and he seemed quite agreeable to them.
> > > However, the longer the wait, the longer the list grows!  I'm certain
> > > and in fact expecting that Grant will remain his steadfast self and
> > > filter out that which will compromise his design.  Yes, this will be
> > > Grant's design for me. :>
>
> > > Cheers,
> > > Benz
>
> > > * this may be nothing at all since I'm not asking for a porteur
> > > bicycle!  I only want to carry a small front bag like a Berthoud
> > > GB2286, Acorn Boxy Rando Bag or Guu-watanabe Retro (if the CFO goes
> > > raving mad, LOL!)
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread Jeff


Thanks for the link, Steve!

I've got a Huret Duo-par (which handles 13-32 just fine) on my
Hetchins and wanted to try something else retro for the new build.  I
appreciate your input about the V-GT.  The research will continue.

Jeff

On Oct 27, 1:08 pm, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 10:57 -0700, Jeff wrote:
> > Doug, you make interesting points about French constructeur forks
> > designed for low trail so as to handle well with a front load.  The
> > fork rake on my Heron is 4.3 cm.  What do you think about that with
> > regard to trail?  The bike handles fine both with and without a
> > Berthoud bag.  I do get a little bit of shimmy while riding no hands
> > with rear low rider panniers added, but that's not my standard set up.
>
> Don't guess, figure it out:  http://kogswell.com/geo.php
>
> > I've got a NOS Suntour V-GT Luxe rear derailleur (which Frank Berto
> > speaks highly of in The Dancing Chain) for the 7 speed drive train.
>
> It was fine in its day, a revelation compared to the likes of the
> Campagnolo Gran Turismo.  I used one for many years.  Compared to
> current Shimano MTB offerings, it's outdated and a poor performer.
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread Doug Van Cleve

Hey Jeff,

4.3cm is not a lot of fork rake.  I think a lot of the low trail bikes have
6cm or so.  I am pretty sure the Heron Randonneur was Tod Kuzma's project
and that the geometry was not tweaked to account for the front rack.  I
think he basically spec'ed the frame with racks and fenders included and
that is what made it the Randonneur...

Regards, Doug


On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 10:57 AM, Jeff  wrote:

>
> I'm of the same mind as Benz.  I don't think what I'm looking for will
> conflict with GP's design philosphy.  The frame I'm basing my requests
> on was (I believe) a Grant designed Heron with Jan Heine's input as a
> consultant.  One of my favorite features is the 80mm bottom bracket
> drop which seems to be right up there on Rivendell's list with keeping
> your bars high.
>
> I'm also going for the post mounted Paul Racers.  I rode with guy on a
> red custom Rivendell who had the posts for Mafac Racers.  Fire Chief
> from around Seattle named Andy-- great guy and a strong rider!
>
> Doug, you make interesting points about French constructeur forks
> designed for low trail so as to handle well with a front load.  The
> fork rake on my Heron is 4.3 cm.  What do you think about that with
> regard to trail?  The bike handles fine both with and without a
> Berthoud bag.  I do get a little bit of shimmy while riding no hands
> with rear low rider panniers added, but that's not my standard set up.
>
> I've got a NOS Suntour V-GT Luxe rear derailleur (which Frank Berto
> speaks highly of in The Dancing Chain) for the 7 speed drive train.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> On Oct 26, 10:45 pm, benzzoy  wrote:
> > On Oct 26, 9:34 am, Bruce  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Grant says exactly that in his notes on custom bike ordering. He
> suggests that
> > > you look at Rivs carefully to be sure that your interests align with
> the RBW gestalt.
> >
> > > "I absolutely listen to your wishes and input, and in fact require it,
> want it, and use
> > > it. But ultimately it is our name that goes on the bike, so certain
> consistencies and
> > > standards must be met, for it to bear our name. For that reason, before
> ordering a
> > > Rivendell custom, it's important to familiarize yourself with our
> values and style,
> > > and make sure we're a good match. "
> >
> > I'm familiar with that entry, and that's why I stated that I'll see if
> > I can fit my nice-to-have list in.
> >
> > I do want a Rivendell fitted to me but I also have a preferred list of
> > features, as a custom bike should.  If the items on the preferred list
> > clashes with the Rivendell design, then I'll definitely go with
> > whatever Grant is recommending since I do want the bike to handle,
> > look and feel like a Rivendell.  Otherwise, why bother?
> >
> > Nevertheless, except for the PegoRichie tubing bit and maybe the front
> > rack bias*, I believe the items on my list are quite aligned with the
> > Rivendell philosophy.  In fact, I've already spoken to Grant a while
> > ago about most of the items and he seemed quite agreeable to them.
> > However, the longer the wait, the longer the list grows!  I'm certain
> > and in fact expecting that Grant will remain his steadfast self and
> > filter out that which will compromise his design.  Yes, this will be
> > Grant's design for me. :>
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Benz
> >
> > * this may be nothing at all since I'm not asking for a porteur
> > bicycle!  I only want to carry a small front bag like a Berthoud
> > GB2286, Acorn Boxy Rando Bag or Guu-watanabe Retro (if the CFO goes
> > raving mad, LOL!)
> >
>

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread Steve Palincsar


On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 10:57 -0700, Jeff wrote:

> Doug, you make interesting points about French constructeur forks
> designed for low trail so as to handle well with a front load.  The
> fork rake on my Heron is 4.3 cm.  What do you think about that with
> regard to trail?  The bike handles fine both with and without a
> Berthoud bag.  I do get a little bit of shimmy while riding no hands
> with rear low rider panniers added, but that's not my standard set up.

Don't guess, figure it out:  http://kogswell.com/geo.php


> I've got a NOS Suntour V-GT Luxe rear derailleur (which Frank Berto
> speaks highly of in The Dancing Chain) for the 7 speed drive train.

It was fine in its day, a revelation compared to the likes of the
Campagnolo Gran Turismo.  I used one for many years.  Compared to
current Shimano MTB offerings, it's outdated and a poor performer.




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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-27 Thread Jeff

I'm of the same mind as Benz.  I don't think what I'm looking for will
conflict with GP's design philosphy.  The frame I'm basing my requests
on was (I believe) a Grant designed Heron with Jan Heine's input as a
consultant.  One of my favorite features is the 80mm bottom bracket
drop which seems to be right up there on Rivendell's list with keeping
your bars high.

I'm also going for the post mounted Paul Racers.  I rode with guy on a
red custom Rivendell who had the posts for Mafac Racers.  Fire Chief
from around Seattle named Andy-- great guy and a strong rider!

Doug, you make interesting points about French constructeur forks
designed for low trail so as to handle well with a front load.  The
fork rake on my Heron is 4.3 cm.  What do you think about that with
regard to trail?  The bike handles fine both with and without a
Berthoud bag.  I do get a little bit of shimmy while riding no hands
with rear low rider panniers added, but that's not my standard set up.

I've got a NOS Suntour V-GT Luxe rear derailleur (which Frank Berto
speaks highly of in The Dancing Chain) for the 7 speed drive train.

Jeff

On Oct 26, 10:45 pm, benzzoy  wrote:
> On Oct 26, 9:34 am, Bruce  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Grant says exactly that in his notes on custom bike ordering. He suggests 
> > that
> > you look at Rivs carefully to be sure that your interests align with the 
> > RBW gestalt.
>
> > "I absolutely listen to your wishes and input, and in fact require it, want 
> > it, and use
> > it. But ultimately it is our name that goes on the bike, so certain 
> > consistencies and
> > standards must be met, for it to bear our name. For that reason, before 
> > ordering a
> > Rivendell custom, it's important to familiarize yourself with our values 
> > and style,
> > and make sure we're a good match. "
>
> I'm familiar with that entry, and that's why I stated that I'll see if
> I can fit my nice-to-have list in.
>
> I do want a Rivendell fitted to me but I also have a preferred list of
> features, as a custom bike should.  If the items on the preferred list
> clashes with the Rivendell design, then I'll definitely go with
> whatever Grant is recommending since I do want the bike to handle,
> look and feel like a Rivendell.  Otherwise, why bother?
>
> Nevertheless, except for the PegoRichie tubing bit and maybe the front
> rack bias*, I believe the items on my list are quite aligned with the
> Rivendell philosophy.  In fact, I've already spoken to Grant a while
> ago about most of the items and he seemed quite agreeable to them.
> However, the longer the wait, the longer the list grows!  I'm certain
> and in fact expecting that Grant will remain his steadfast self and
> filter out that which will compromise his design.  Yes, this will be
> Grant's design for me. :>
>
> Cheers,
> Benz
>
> * this may be nothing at all since I'm not asking for a porteur
> bicycle!  I only want to carry a small front bag like a Berthoud
> GB2286, Acorn Boxy Rando Bag or Guu-watanabe Retro (if the CFO goes
> raving mad, LOL!)
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery

Interesting idea about decals/logos, Seth. When I had my Atlantis S&S
coupled, I had it powdercoated black, with no decals or headbadges. I
don't mind a tasteful decal or logo, but in this case I was going for
a stealth appearance. It turns out to be a pretty striking bike
without any logos, and whenever I have it out, somebody approaches me
to ask what it is. So much for stealth...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/twowheelflight/3229886800/

On Oct 26, 8:29 pm, Seth Vidal  wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 7:02 PM, Brad Gantt  wrote:
>
> > Seth,
>
> > I respect your position even if I don't share it.
>
> Thanks - you'll note I'm not saying everyone should agree with me. :)
>
> -sv
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread benzzoy

On Oct 26, 9:34 am, Bruce  wrote:
>
> Grant says exactly that in his notes on custom bike ordering. He suggests that
> you look at Rivs carefully to be sure that your interests align with the RBW 
> gestalt.
>
> "I absolutely listen to your wishes and input, and in fact require it, want 
> it, and use
> it. But ultimately it is our name that goes on the bike, so certain 
> consistencies and
> standards must be met, for it to bear our name. For that reason, before 
> ordering a
> Rivendell custom, it's important to familiarize yourself with our values and 
> style,
> and make sure we're a good match. "

I'm familiar with that entry, and that's why I stated that I'll see if
I can fit my nice-to-have list in.

I do want a Rivendell fitted to me but I also have a preferred list of
features, as a custom bike should.  If the items on the preferred list
clashes with the Rivendell design, then I'll definitely go with
whatever Grant is recommending since I do want the bike to handle,
look and feel like a Rivendell.  Otherwise, why bother?

Nevertheless, except for the PegoRichie tubing bit and maybe the front
rack bias*, I believe the items on my list are quite aligned with the
Rivendell philosophy.  In fact, I've already spoken to Grant a while
ago about most of the items and he seemed quite agreeable to them.
However, the longer the wait, the longer the list grows!  I'm certain
and in fact expecting that Grant will remain his steadfast self and
filter out that which will compromise his design.  Yes, this will be
Grant's design for me. :>

Cheers,
Benz

* this may be nothing at all since I'm not asking for a porteur
bicycle!  I only want to carry a small front bag like a Berthoud
GB2286, Acorn Boxy Rando Bag or Guu-watanabe Retro (if the CFO goes
raving mad, LOL!)
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread cyclotourist

I remember that.  He wanted it to be a stealth commuter.

DE

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Angus  wrote:

>
> I recall in an early Rivendell Reader an installment of "Who Rides a
> Rivendell" (owners & their bikes), with a gentlemen who had a black
> Rivendell with no downtube decals (don't recall if it had a headbadge
> or not) as a theft deterent.  I believe it was his commuter bike.
>
> Angus
>
> On Oct 26, 2:40 pm, Seth Vidal  wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 3:30 PM, newenglandbike 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Not even a stamp?No names or logos seems like a pretty strict
> > > requirement for an artisan to adhere to.I only say this because I
> > > wouldn't call a builder's identity 'advertising' if all it amounted to
> > > was a stamp on the bottom bracket or something, and I certainly would
> > > *not* look at a custom frame as merely equivalent to/a product of
> > > someone's skill and time.   If something as personal as a custom
> > > bicycle frame was built by human hands, whether it be an individual or
> > > multiple people, I think it should have some marking to identify those
> > > hands.
> >
> > I go out of my way to buy clothing that does not have any logos. I
> > don't always succeed but I try. I like my atlantis. I think it is a
> > great bike. I think rivendell is a great company. If I'm buying
> > production items and I'm happy with the company then I'm willing to
> > compromise on my requirements a bit.
> >
> > However, if I'm paying for something to be custom then I expect built
> > into the cost of custom building it is the reality that it will have
> > no markings save the ones I want.
> >
> > I spent hours removing all the logos from almost all the parts on a
> > number of bikes. I've unstitched embroidered logos on pants and
> > jackets. Removed patch logos. (seam rippers are wonderful tools)
> >
> > If someone wants to know what products I endorse then they can ask me.
> > I do not  wish to be compelled to do otherwise.
> >
> > And like I said - I'm not unwilling to compromise, to  a point.( That
> > little laser-etched logo from Velo-orange annoys the crap out of me,
> > though) but for fully custom-made objects I expect no brands or logos.
> > No stamps, nothing unless it is something I request.
> >
> > I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all, especially b/c I don't
> > dogmatically follow this rule.
> > -sv
> >
>


-- 
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

"Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something
wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym."  ~Bill Nye,
scientist guy

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread nathan spindel


Angus, that sounds a lot like this Atlantis I recently saw locked up
in San Francisco: .

It definitely does look less fancy & theft appealing when you remove
the decals and standard cream-on-green-lug-highlighting paint job, but
the bike still looks classy to me!

-nathan

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Angus  wrote:
>
> I recall in an early Rivendell Reader an installment of "Who Rides a
> Rivendell" (owners & their bikes), with a gentlemen who had a black
> Rivendell with no downtube decals (don't recall if it had a headbadge
> or not) as a theft deterent.  I believe it was his commuter bike.
>
> Angus
>
> On Oct 26, 2:40 pm, Seth Vidal  wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 3:30 PM, newenglandbike  
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Not even a stamp?    No names or logos seems like a pretty strict
>> > requirement for an artisan to adhere to.    I only say this because I
>> > wouldn't call a builder's identity 'advertising' if all it amounted to
>> > was a stamp on the bottom bracket or something, and I certainly would
>> > *not* look at a custom frame as merely equivalent to/a product of
>> > someone's skill and time.   If something as personal as a custom
>> > bicycle frame was built by human hands, whether it be an individual or
>> > multiple people, I think it should have some marking to identify those
>> > hands.
>>
>> I go out of my way to buy clothing that does not have any logos. I
>> don't always succeed but I try. I like my atlantis. I think it is a
>> great bike. I think rivendell is a great company. If I'm buying
>> production items and I'm happy with the company then I'm willing to
>> compromise on my requirements a bit.
>>
>> However, if I'm paying for something to be custom then I expect built
>> into the cost of custom building it is the reality that it will have
>> no markings save the ones I want.
>>
>> I spent hours removing all the logos from almost all the parts on a
>> number of bikes. I've unstitched embroidered logos on pants and
>> jackets. Removed patch logos. (seam rippers are wonderful tools)
>>
>> If someone wants to know what products I endorse then they can ask me.
>> I do not  wish to be compelled to do otherwise.
>>
>> And like I said - I'm not unwilling to compromise, to  a point.( That
>> little laser-etched logo from Velo-orange annoys the crap out of me,
>> though) but for fully custom-made objects I expect no brands or logos.
>> No stamps, nothing unless it is something I request.
>>
>> I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all, especially b/c I don't
>> dogmatically follow this rule.
>> -sv
> >
>

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Seth Vidal


On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 7:02 PM, Brad Gantt  wrote:
>
> Seth,
>
> I respect your position even if I don't share it.

Thanks - you'll note I'm not saying everyone should agree with me. :)

-sv

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Brad Gantt



> I'm sure everyone can see the difference between a signature and a logo. 
> right?


Now we're splitting hairs. On a Trek, I think you have a point. On a
Rivendell, the badge and logos are a signature. Modern logos are
derivative of artisan, trade and craftsperson symbols ("trade" marks?)
which could be found on everything from armor to vases to oil
paintings.




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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Brad Gantt


Seth,

I respect your position even if I don't share it. With regard to
Rivendell, I think the logos on the custom frames are works of art but
hey, I am a designer and typophile. Clearly this is a major issue with
you and I hope that when you do get a custom frame built you are able
to find a builder who shares your philosophy.

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Seth Vidal


On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 9:03 PM, JoelMatthews  wrote:
>
>> I'm sure everyone can see the difference between a signature and a logo. 
>> right?
>
> That was an era both before logos were used and people signing things
> was common.  Michelangelo's signature, plus his using buddies' faces
> on angels was his logo.
>

then consider me an ultra retro grouch.

If a builder wants to 'sign' their work on the bottom bracket in a
small, tasteful way, then I'll leave it there.
Hey, wait - I have one of those on the bottom bracket of every bike I
have - it's called the serial number.

-sv

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread JoelMatthews


> I'm sure everyone can see the difference between a signature and a logo. 
> right?

That was an era both before logos were used and people signing things
was common.  Michelangelo's signature, plus his using buddies' faces
on angels was his logo.

On Oct 26, 3:03 pm, Seth Vidal  wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 4:02 PM, JoelMatthews  wrote:
>
> >> Craftspeople throughout time have marked their work in one way or another.
>
> > Heck yeah.  Michelangelo even signed a ceiling he painted for the
> > Vatican.
>
> I'm sure everyone can see the difference between a signature and a logo. 
> right?
>
> -sv
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Angus


I recall in an early Rivendell Reader an installment of "Who Rides a
Rivendell" (owners & their bikes), with a gentlemen who had a black
Rivendell with no downtube decals (don't recall if it had a headbadge
or not) as a theft deterent.  I believe it was his commuter bike.

Angus

On Oct 26, 2:40 pm, Seth Vidal  wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 3:30 PM, newenglandbike  
> wrote:
>
> > Not even a stamp?    No names or logos seems like a pretty strict
> > requirement for an artisan to adhere to.    I only say this because I
> > wouldn't call a builder's identity 'advertising' if all it amounted to
> > was a stamp on the bottom bracket or something, and I certainly would
> > *not* look at a custom frame as merely equivalent to/a product of
> > someone's skill and time.   If something as personal as a custom
> > bicycle frame was built by human hands, whether it be an individual or
> > multiple people, I think it should have some marking to identify those
> > hands.
>
> I go out of my way to buy clothing that does not have any logos. I
> don't always succeed but I try. I like my atlantis. I think it is a
> great bike. I think rivendell is a great company. If I'm buying
> production items and I'm happy with the company then I'm willing to
> compromise on my requirements a bit.
>
> However, if I'm paying for something to be custom then I expect built
> into the cost of custom building it is the reality that it will have
> no markings save the ones I want.
>
> I spent hours removing all the logos from almost all the parts on a
> number of bikes. I've unstitched embroidered logos on pants and
> jackets. Removed patch logos. (seam rippers are wonderful tools)
>
> If someone wants to know what products I endorse then they can ask me.
> I do not  wish to be compelled to do otherwise.
>
> And like I said - I'm not unwilling to compromise, to  a point.( That
> little laser-etched logo from Velo-orange annoys the crap out of me,
> though) but for fully custom-made objects I expect no brands or logos.
> No stamps, nothing unless it is something I request.
>
> I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all, especially b/c I don't
> dogmatically follow this rule.
> -sv
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Frankwurst


I wouldn't buy a custom without the builders name on it.If I put out
that kind of money I want it right. Word of mouth can either be the
best or worst advertising anybody or any business can have. Would you
fabricate a frame and hang your name on it if somebody would bad mouth
it? This is the age of the internet. These people are not getting
rich. They are providing us (the consumers) with options and some of
the finest built bicycles you can buy, and yes I'd say in the world.
There are lots of choices and lots of builders and I'm going to say
yeah, put your name on it because I talk alot and so does everybody
else, so make it good. I bet they will because if they don't somebody
will point it out.

On Oct 26, 3:03 pm, JoelMatthews  wrote:
> > When Joe Bell painted my '72 Cinelli, we opted to leave his
> > traditional JB logo off, since it wasn't correct for the period.
>
> That makes a lot of sense, as the intent was to return something to
> what it was, not recreate it.
>
> Per my post above, the team of artisans who restored the Sistine
> Chapel, would never think to have signed it themselves.
>
> On Oct 26, 2:44 pm, Eric Norris  wrote:
>
>
>
> > When Joe Bell painted my '72 Cinelli, we opted to leave his  
> > traditional JB logo off, since it wasn't correct for the period.
>
> > --Eric Norris
> > Sent via iPhone
>
> > On Oct 26, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Seth Vidal  wrote:
>
> > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 3:30 PM, newenglandbike  > > > wrote:
>
> > >> Not even a stamp?    No names or logos seems like a pretty strict
> > >> requirement for an artisan to adhere to.    I only say this because I
> > >> wouldn't call a builder's identity 'advertising' if all it amounted  
> > >> to
> > >> was a stamp on the bottom bracket or something, and I certainly would
> > >> *not* look at a custom frame as merely equivalent to/a product of
> > >> someone's skill and time.   If something as personal as a custom
> > >> bicycle frame was built by human hands, whether it be an individual  
> > >> or
> > >> multiple people, I think it should have some marking to identify  
> > >> those
> > >> hands.
>
> > > I go out of my way to buy clothing that does not have any logos. I
> > > don't always succeed but I try. I like my atlantis. I think it is a
> > > great bike. I think rivendell is a great company. If I'm buying
> > > production items and I'm happy with the company then I'm willing to
> > > compromise on my requirements a bit.
>
> > > However, if I'm paying for something to be custom then I expect built
> > > into the cost of custom building it is the reality that it will have
> > > no markings save the ones I want.
>
> > > I spent hours removing all the logos from almost all the parts on a
> > > number of bikes. I've unstitched embroidered logos on pants and
> > > jackets. Removed patch logos. (seam rippers are wonderful tools)
>
> > > If someone wants to know what products I endorse then they can ask me.
> > > I do not  wish to be compelled to do otherwise.
>
> > > And like I said - I'm not unwilling to compromise, to  a point.( That
> > > little laser-etched logo from Velo-orange annoys the crap out of me,
> > > though) but for fully custom-made objects I expect no brands or logos.
> > > No stamps, nothing unless it is something I request.
>
> > > I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all, especially b/c I don't
> > > dogmatically follow this rule.
> > > -sv- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread JoelMatthews


> When Joe Bell painted my '72 Cinelli, we opted to leave his
> traditional JB logo off, since it wasn't correct for the period.

That makes a lot of sense, as the intent was to return something to
what it was, not recreate it.

Per my post above, the team of artisans who restored the Sistine
Chapel, would never think to have signed it themselves.

On Oct 26, 2:44 pm, Eric Norris  wrote:
> When Joe Bell painted my '72 Cinelli, we opted to leave his  
> traditional JB logo off, since it wasn't correct for the period.
>
> --Eric Norris
> Sent via iPhone
>
> On Oct 26, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Seth Vidal  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 3:30 PM, newenglandbike  > > wrote:
>
> >> Not even a stamp?No names or logos seems like a pretty strict
> >> requirement for an artisan to adhere to.I only say this because I
> >> wouldn't call a builder's identity 'advertising' if all it amounted  
> >> to
> >> was a stamp on the bottom bracket or something, and I certainly would
> >> *not* look at a custom frame as merely equivalent to/a product of
> >> someone's skill and time.   If something as personal as a custom
> >> bicycle frame was built by human hands, whether it be an individual  
> >> or
> >> multiple people, I think it should have some marking to identify  
> >> those
> >> hands.
>
> > I go out of my way to buy clothing that does not have any logos. I
> > don't always succeed but I try. I like my atlantis. I think it is a
> > great bike. I think rivendell is a great company. If I'm buying
> > production items and I'm happy with the company then I'm willing to
> > compromise on my requirements a bit.
>
> > However, if I'm paying for something to be custom then I expect built
> > into the cost of custom building it is the reality that it will have
> > no markings save the ones I want.
>
> > I spent hours removing all the logos from almost all the parts on a
> > number of bikes. I've unstitched embroidered logos on pants and
> > jackets. Removed patch logos. (seam rippers are wonderful tools)
>
> > If someone wants to know what products I endorse then they can ask me.
> > I do not  wish to be compelled to do otherwise.
>
> > And like I said - I'm not unwilling to compromise, to  a point.( That
> > little laser-etched logo from Velo-orange annoys the crap out of me,
> > though) but for fully custom-made objects I expect no brands or logos.
> > No stamps, nothing unless it is something I request.
>
> > I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all, especially b/c I don't
> > dogmatically follow this rule.
> > -sv- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Seth Vidal


On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 4:02 PM, JoelMatthews  wrote:
>
>> Craftspeople throughout time have marked their work in one way or another.
>
> Heck yeah.  Michelangelo even signed a ceiling he painted for the
> Vatican.
>

I'm sure everyone can see the difference between a signature and a logo. right?

-sv

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread JoelMatthews


> Craftspeople throughout time have marked their work in one way or another.

Heck yeah.  Michelangelo even signed a ceiling he painted for the
Vatican.

On Oct 26, 1:38 pm, Brad Gantt  wrote:
>  "I'm not paying someone to advertise for them. I'm paying them for
> their skill and time."
>  -sv
>
> Interesting perspective Seth but what you describe seems to devalue
> the role of the craftsperson/builder in the process. Does your boycott
> of logos and names include headbadges? Craftspeople throughout time
> have marked their work in one way or another. Personally, I know there
> are plenty of folks who will build you a bike without decals and logos
> of any kind but this is a tough business and I don't mind spreading
> the word as long as it's tastefully done. This is a matter of personal
> preference of course. Again, if you simply want a builder to build a
> bike of your design then you're probably not going to buy a Rivendell.
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Seth Vidal

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Brad Gantt  wrote:
>
>  "I'm not paying someone to advertise for them. I'm paying them for
> their skill and time."
>  -sv
>
> Interesting perspective Seth but what you describe seems to devalue
> the role of the craftsperson/builder in the process.

No I don't think it does. I am valuing their role in the process to
guide it. That doesn't mean they get to brand it. Think of your house?
If you had a house built, would you expect the architect or the
builder to be allowed to put their logo on the roof or the side of the
house forever?

I would hope not.

why is a custom built bicycle any different?

>  Does your boycott of logos and names include headbadges?

boycott makes it sound far more dogmatic than it is. I simply try to
avoid them and I remove them when I can. I like headbadges from a
'filling a space' standpoint but it's not the only thing a headbadge
can convey is the maker of the bike.

> Craftspeople throughout time have marked their work in one way or another.

Yes -but giant gaudy logos is not the way I prefer them to do so.

> Personally, I know there are plenty of folks who will build you a bike 
> without decals and logos
> of any kind but this is a tough business and I don't mind spreading
> the word as long as it's tastefully done.

If someone does a good job and I'm happy with the result I will make
sure they are spoken well of and frequently to folks around me. I do
not need this to be a requirement.

> Again, if you simply want a builder to build a bike of your design then
> you're probably not going to buy a Rivendell.

Even if I want them to design one for me - it does not necessarily
require that they are  allowed to emblazon logos across it. I am not
signing up to ANY process that requires me to be a riding or walking
advertisement.

If rivendell's process requires that then, yes, you're right, I won't
be getting a rivendell custom. I suspect I can find a builder who is
capable of building a bike well and properly w/o the logos.

Or at the very least inexpensively enough that I can get the frame
made w/o painting and have it painted to my requirements w/o logos.

-sv

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Dustin Sharp


When I had my Blacksheep allrounder done, I asked James to leave all
stickers off and just went with a headbadge. Seemed like a nice compromise
to me of making the frame identifiable in a subtle way, while avoiding the
feeling of riding on a billboard between wheels.

Dustin


> From: Seth Vidal 
> Reply-To: 
> Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:40:10 -0400
> To: 
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?
> 
> 
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 3:30 PM, newenglandbike 
> wrote:
>> 
>> Not even a stamp?    No names or logos seems like a pretty strict
>> requirement for an artisan to adhere to.    I only say this because I
>> wouldn't call a builder's identity 'advertising' if all it amounted to
>> was a stamp on the bottom bracket or something, and I certainly would
>> *not* look at a custom frame as merely equivalent to/a product of
>> someone's skill and time.   If something as personal as a custom
>> bicycle frame was built by human hands, whether it be an individual or
>> multiple people, I think it should have some marking to identify those
>> hands.
>> 
> 
> I go out of my way to buy clothing that does not have any logos. I
> don't always succeed but I try. I like my atlantis. I think it is a
> great bike. I think rivendell is a great company. If I'm buying
> production items and I'm happy with the company then I'm willing to
> compromise on my requirements a bit.
> 
> However, if I'm paying for something to be custom then I expect built
> into the cost of custom building it is the reality that it will have
> no markings save the ones I want.
> 
> I spent hours removing all the logos from almost all the parts on a
> number of bikes. I've unstitched embroidered logos on pants and
> jackets. Removed patch logos. (seam rippers are wonderful tools)
> 
> If someone wants to know what products I endorse then they can ask me.
> I do not  wish to be compelled to do otherwise.
> 
> And like I said - I'm not unwilling to compromise, to  a point.( That
> little laser-etched logo from Velo-orange annoys the crap out of me,
> though) but for fully custom-made objects I expect no brands or logos.
> No stamps, nothing unless it is something I request.
> 
> I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all, especially b/c I don't
> dogmatically follow this rule.
> -sv
> 
> > 
> 



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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Eric Norris


When Joe Bell painted my '72 Cinelli, we opted to leave his  
traditional JB logo off, since it wasn't correct for the period.

―Eric Norris
Sent via iPhone

On Oct 26, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Seth Vidal  wrote:

>
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 3:30 PM, newenglandbike  > wrote:
>>
>> Not even a stamp?No names or logos seems like a pretty strict
>> requirement for an artisan to adhere to.I only say this because I
>> wouldn't call a builder's identity 'advertising' if all it amounted  
>> to
>> was a stamp on the bottom bracket or something, and I certainly would
>> *not* look at a custom frame as merely equivalent to/a product of
>> someone's skill and time.   If something as personal as a custom
>> bicycle frame was built by human hands, whether it be an individual  
>> or
>> multiple people, I think it should have some marking to identify  
>> those
>> hands.
>>
>
> I go out of my way to buy clothing that does not have any logos. I
> don't always succeed but I try. I like my atlantis. I think it is a
> great bike. I think rivendell is a great company. If I'm buying
> production items and I'm happy with the company then I'm willing to
> compromise on my requirements a bit.
>
> However, if I'm paying for something to be custom then I expect built
> into the cost of custom building it is the reality that it will have
> no markings save the ones I want.
>
> I spent hours removing all the logos from almost all the parts on a
> number of bikes. I've unstitched embroidered logos on pants and
> jackets. Removed patch logos. (seam rippers are wonderful tools)
>
> If someone wants to know what products I endorse then they can ask me.
> I do not  wish to be compelled to do otherwise.
>
> And like I said - I'm not unwilling to compromise, to  a point.( That
> little laser-etched logo from Velo-orange annoys the crap out of me,
> though) but for fully custom-made objects I expect no brands or logos.
> No stamps, nothing unless it is something I request.
>
> I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all, especially b/c I don't
> dogmatically follow this rule.
> -sv
>
> >

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Brad Gantt


 "I'm not paying someone to advertise for them. I'm paying them for
their skill and time."
 -sv

Interesting perspective Seth but what you describe seems to devalue
the role of the craftsperson/builder in the process. Does your boycott
of logos and names include headbadges? Craftspeople throughout time
have marked their work in one way or another. Personally, I know there
are plenty of folks who will build you a bike without decals and logos
of any kind but this is a tough business and I don't mind spreading
the word as long as it's tastefully done. This is a matter of personal
preference of course. Again, if you simply want a builder to build a
bike of your design then you're probably not going to buy a Rivendell.

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Seth Vidal

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 3:30 PM, newenglandbike  wrote:
>
> Not even a stamp?    No names or logos seems like a pretty strict
> requirement for an artisan to adhere to.    I only say this because I
> wouldn't call a builder's identity 'advertising' if all it amounted to
> was a stamp on the bottom bracket or something, and I certainly would
> *not* look at a custom frame as merely equivalent to/a product of
> someone's skill and time.   If something as personal as a custom
> bicycle frame was built by human hands, whether it be an individual or
> multiple people, I think it should have some marking to identify those
> hands.
>

I go out of my way to buy clothing that does not have any logos. I
don't always succeed but I try. I like my atlantis. I think it is a
great bike. I think rivendell is a great company. If I'm buying
production items and I'm happy with the company then I'm willing to
compromise on my requirements a bit.

However, if I'm paying for something to be custom then I expect built
into the cost of custom building it is the reality that it will have
no markings save the ones I want.

I spent hours removing all the logos from almost all the parts on a
number of bikes. I've unstitched embroidered logos on pants and
jackets. Removed patch logos. (seam rippers are wonderful tools)

If someone wants to know what products I endorse then they can ask me.
I do not  wish to be compelled to do otherwise.

And like I said - I'm not unwilling to compromise, to  a point.( That
little laser-etched logo from Velo-orange annoys the crap out of me,
though) but for fully custom-made objects I expect no brands or logos.
No stamps, nothing unless it is something I request.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all, especially b/c I don't
dogmatically follow this rule.
-sv

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread newenglandbike

Not even a stamp?No names or logos seems like a pretty strict
requirement for an artisan to adhere to.I only say this because I
wouldn't call a builder's identity 'advertising' if all it amounted to
was a stamp on the bottom bracket or something, and I certainly would
*not* look at a custom frame as merely equivalent to/a product of
someone's skill and time.   If something as personal as a custom
bicycle frame was built by human hands, whether it be an individual or
multiple people, I think it should have some marking to identify those
hands.

On Oct 26, 2:10 pm, Seth Vidal  wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Brad Gantt  wrote:
>
>
> To be fair I think some folks who want a custom do NOT want the
> builder to put their name on it. They just want a very specific frame
> built and to have it.
>
> Not all products are about advertising. To be sure, if I ever have a
> custom frame built the  custom feature I will not bend on is that
> there be no names nor logos anywhere on the bike.
>
> I'm not paying someone to advertise for them. I'm paying them for
> their skill and time.
>
> -sv
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread JoelMatthews


> To be fair I think some folks who want a custom do NOT want the
> builder to put their name on it. They just want a very specific frame
> built and to have it.
>
> Not all products are about advertising. To be sure, if I ever have a
> custom frame built the  custom feature I will not bend on is that
> there be no names nor logos anywhere on the bike.
>
> I'm not paying someone to advertise for them. I'm paying them for
> their skill and time.

But Grant is pretty clear that he believes bikes should be a certain
way and those are the bikes he builds.

There are plenty of builders who will make bikes to customer's exact
specifications.  Sometimes this results in wonderful chemistry.  Other
times, the customer learns all to late the expensive limits of his/her
bike design skills.

I guess you could say that the Rivendell sticker on a bike is
advertising.  I expect Grant would say that and a label saying this is
what I believe a bike should be.

On Oct 26, 1:10 pm, Seth Vidal  wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Brad Gantt  wrote:
>
> > I chose a specific builder because I wanted their ideas, aesthetics,
> > etc. applied to a bike designed for my size, weight and riding style.
> > These ideas and practices (craft, material, weld-style, etc) are what
> > truly distinguish builders from one another. If you have very strong
> > ideas (that you're not willing to compromise) about exactly which
> > tubeset you want, fork rake, trail, geometry, etc. then what are you
> > coming to the builder for exactly? I'm not suggesting that is anybody
> > here but I have heard such discussions on other forums and it has
> > always perplexed me. It's like they want a builder to put their name
> > on a bike that they didn't actually design. I think Grant's honesty
> > and refusal to compromise, even if it means he might lose a sale, is
> > actually refreshing. Fortunately there are a lot of choices when it
> > comes to custom builders and most anybody can find what they're
> > looking for. I can't wait to ride the Rivendell Grant designed for me.
>
> To be fair I think some folks who want a custom do NOT want the
> builder to put their name on it. They just want a very specific frame
> built and to have it.
>
> Not all products are about advertising. To be sure, if I ever have a
> custom frame built the  custom feature I will not bend on is that
> there be no names nor logos anywhere on the bike.
>
> I'm not paying someone to advertise for them. I'm paying them for
> their skill and time.
>
> -sv- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Seth Vidal


On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Brad Gantt  wrote:
>
> I chose a specific builder because I wanted their ideas, aesthetics,
> etc. applied to a bike designed for my size, weight and riding style.
> These ideas and practices (craft, material, weld-style, etc) are what
> truly distinguish builders from one another. If you have very strong
> ideas (that you're not willing to compromise) about exactly which
> tubeset you want, fork rake, trail, geometry, etc. then what are you
> coming to the builder for exactly? I'm not suggesting that is anybody
> here but I have heard such discussions on other forums and it has
> always perplexed me. It's like they want a builder to put their name
> on a bike that they didn't actually design. I think Grant's honesty
> and refusal to compromise, even if it means he might lose a sale, is
> actually refreshing. Fortunately there are a lot of choices when it
> comes to custom builders and most anybody can find what they're
> looking for. I can't wait to ride the Rivendell Grant designed for me.
>

To be fair I think some folks who want a custom do NOT want the
builder to put their name on it. They just want a very specific frame
built and to have it.

Not all products are about advertising. To be sure, if I ever have a
custom frame built the  custom feature I will not bend on is that
there be no names nor logos anywhere on the bike.

I'm not paying someone to advertise for them. I'm paying them for
their skill and time.

-sv

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Brad Gantt


I chose a specific builder because I wanted their ideas, aesthetics,
etc. applied to a bike designed for my size, weight and riding style.
These ideas and practices (craft, material, weld-style, etc) are what
truly distinguish builders from one another. If you have very strong
ideas (that you're not willing to compromise) about exactly which
tubeset you want, fork rake, trail, geometry, etc. then what are you
coming to the builder for exactly? I'm not suggesting that is anybody
here but I have heard such discussions on other forums and it has
always perplexed me. It's like they want a builder to put their name
on a bike that they didn't actually design. I think Grant's honesty
and refusal to compromise, even if it means he might lose a sale, is
actually refreshing. Fortunately there are a lot of choices when it
comes to custom builders and most anybody can find what they're
looking for. I can't wait to ride the Rivendell Grant designed for me.

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Dustin Sharp

All depends on how far you take the ³values and style² aspect, right?

I¹m not sure how a low-trail fork compromises Riv¹s values and style. It¹s
not like asking for a dayglo time trial bike, right?

Ultimately, seems like a question that only a phone call or e-mail to Grant
can answer though.

Dustin

From: Bruce 
Reply-To: 
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 09:34:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: 
Subject: [RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

Grant says exactly that in his notes on custom bike ordering. He suggests
that you look at Rivs carefully to be sure that your interests align with
the RBW gestalt.

Copy/paste from the notes:

"I absolutely listen to your wishes and input, and in fact require it, want
it, and use it. But ultimately it is our name that goes on the bike, so
certain consistencies and standards must be met, for it to bear our name.
For that reason, before ordering a Rivendell custom, it's important to
familiarize yourself with our values and style, and make sure we're a good
match. "

From: Doug Van Cleve 
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 11:24:19 AM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

Howdy folks.

Unless there has been some fairly recent and radical change, a Riv Custom
isn't really "custom".  It is Grant's design for you, tweaked within limits
to your preferences.  I know of at least one Custom from the Curt Goodrich
days that was built with braze-ons for centerpull brakes and at least one
that Curt built a front rando rack for (may have been the same bike, don't
recall).  So there is a precedent for that sort of thing.  I don't think,
though, that Grant will radically alter any traditional RBW geometry ideas
so I would be surprised if he would do a low trail French style front
geometry.  It will be interesting to hear how these recent Customs come out.
My impression is that Customs are a FAR smaller proportion of RBW sales than
they were 10 years ago...

Regards, Doug

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Patrick in VT  wrote:
> 
> On Oct 24, 12:54 am, benzzoy  wrote:
>> >I believe Grant prefer rear racks but I'm hoping he'll design a frame/fork
>> suitable for >a Berthoud or Acorn front bag; perhaps Grant and Mark
>> (Nobilette) may even consent to brazing up a simple custom front rack. :)  .
>> .. .
>> > Finally, and this is way out there, I may ask if he is willing to
>> > design the bike around the PegoRichie tubeset.
> 
> sounds very much like my custom, right down to the tubes!  sweet.
> 
> your post implies that perhaps some of your preferences might be
> vetoed?  how exactly does the riv custom process work?
> 
> i realize that some designers/framebuilders do things "their" way and
> your either down with it or your not - and that's cool.  i have a lot
> of respect for that.
> 
> but, if you have a clear, reasoned thoughts about what *you* want
> (front rack, spirit tubes, etc.), I don't think you should
> compromise.  it's *your* custom bike, afterall!
> 
> in any event, I'm sure it will be a killer rig!
> 

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Bruce

Grant says exactly that in his notes on custom bike ordering. He suggests that 
you look at Rivs carefully to be sure that your interests align with the RBW 
gestalt.

Copy/paste from the notes:

"I absolutely listen to your wishes and input, and in fact require it, want it, 
and use it. But ultimately it is our name that goes on the bike, so certain 
consistencies and standards must be met, for it to bear our name. For that 
reason, before ordering a Rivendell custom, it's important to familiarize 
yourself with our values and style, and make sure we're a good match. "

From: Doug Van Cleve 
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 11:24:19 AM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

Howdy folks.

Unless there has been some fairly recent and radical change, a Riv Custom isn't 
really "custom".  It is Grant's design for you, tweaked within limits to your 
preferences.  I know of at least one Custom from the Curt Goodrich days that 
was built with braze-ons for centerpull brakes and at least one that Curt built 
a front rando rack for (may have been the same bike, don't recall).  So there 
is a precedent for that sort of thing.  I don't think, though, that Grant will 
radically alter any traditional RBW geometry ideas so I would be surprised if 
he would do a low trail French style front geometry.  It will be interesting to 
hear how these recent Customs come out.  My impression is that Customs are a 
FAR smaller proportion of RBW sales than they were 10 years ago...

Regards, Doug

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Patrick in VT  wrote:

>>On Oct 24, 12:54 am, benzzoy  wrote:
>>>I believe Grant prefer rear racks but I'm hoping he'll design a frame/fork 
>>>suitable for >a Berthoud or Acorn front bag; perhaps Grant and Mark 
>>>(Nobilette) may even consent to brazing up a simple custom front rack. :)  . 
>>>.. .
>
>> Finally, and this is way out there, I may ask if he is willing to
>>> design the bike around the PegoRichie tubeset.
>
>sounds very much like my custom, right down to the tubes!  sweet.
>
>>your post implies that perhaps some of your preferences might be
>>vetoed?  how exactly does the riv custom process work?
>
>>i realize that some designers/framebuilders do things "their" way and
>>your either down with it or your not - and that's cool.  i have a lot
>>of respect for that.
>
>>but, if you have a clear, reasoned thoughts about what *you* want
>>(front rack, spirit tubes, etc.), I don't think you should
>>compromise.  it's *your* custom bike, afterall!
>
>>in any event, I'm sure it will be a killer rig!
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Doug Van Cleve

Howdy folks.

Unless there has been some fairly recent and radical change, a Riv Custom
isn't really "custom".  It is Grant's design for you, tweaked within limits
to your preferences.  I know of at least one Custom from the Curt Goodrich
days that was built with braze-ons for centerpull brakes and at least one
that Curt built a front rando rack for (may have been the same bike, don't
recall).  So there is a precedent for that sort of thing.  I don't think,
though, that Grant will radically alter any traditional RBW geometry ideas
so I would be surprised if he would do a low trail French style front
geometry.  It will be interesting to hear how these recent Customs come
out.  My impression is that Customs are a FAR smaller proportion of RBW
sales than they were 10 years ago...

Regards, Doug

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 7:15 AM, Patrick in VT  wrote:

>
> On Oct 24, 12:54 am, benzzoy  wrote:
> >I believe Grant prefer rear racks but I'm hoping he'll design a frame/fork
> suitable for >a Berthoud or Acorn front bag; perhaps Grant and Mark
> (Nobilette) may even consent to brazing up a simple custom front rack. :)  .
> .. .
> > Finally, and this is way out there, I may ask if he is willing to
> > design the bike around the PegoRichie tubeset.
>
> sounds very much like my custom, right down to the tubes!  sweet.
>
> your post implies that perhaps some of your preferences might be
> vetoed?  how exactly does the riv custom process work?
>
> i realize that some designers/framebuilders do things "their" way and
> your either down with it or your not - and that's cool.  i have a lot
> of respect for that.
>
> but, if you have a clear, reasoned thoughts about what *you* want
> (front rack, spirit tubes, etc.), I don't think you should
> compromise.  it's *your* custom bike, afterall!
>
> in any event, I'm sure it will be a killer rig!
> >
>

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-26 Thread Patrick in VT

On Oct 24, 12:54 am, benzzoy  wrote:
>I believe Grant prefer rear racks but I'm hoping he'll design a frame/fork 
>suitable for >a Berthoud or Acorn front bag; perhaps Grant and Mark 
>(Nobilette) may even consent to brazing up a simple custom front rack. :)  . 
>.. .
> Finally, and this is way out there, I may ask if he is willing to
> design the bike around the PegoRichie tubeset.

sounds very much like my custom, right down to the tubes!  sweet.

your post implies that perhaps some of your preferences might be
vetoed?  how exactly does the riv custom process work?

i realize that some designers/framebuilders do things "their" way and
your either down with it or your not - and that's cool.  i have a lot
of respect for that.

but, if you have a clear, reasoned thoughts about what *you* want
(front rack, spirit tubes, etc.), I don't think you should
compromise.  it's *your* custom bike, afterall!

in any event, I'm sure it will be a killer rig!
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-25 Thread Brad Gantt


Mike,

Yes, I locked-in at the price from 2007. I'll be sure to post pics
when I get it. Thanks.

Brad

On Oct 23, 5:38 pm, Mike  wrote:
> So Brad, I imagine you paid the price that a custom sold for at the
> time you placed the order right? Congrats on the impending arrival of
> the bike and be sure to post some pictures of it.
>
> It's really too bad that Rivendell never got together a frame shop
> like Bilenky, Indpenpendent or Mercian. But then again, if they were
> focused on frames they wouldn't necessarily be doing the other cool
> things they're doing--bags, desiging racks, etc.
>
> --mike

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-25 Thread Anne


The mention of Mercian, reminded me of another option, while it's not
a GP designed frame, is lugged, full custom steel, to your spec and is
from France. About an eight week turn. For that matter, one could get
onto this, ride it for a couple years while awaiting their Riv.
Cyfac's "VINTAGE" is 100% hand-made in La Fuye, France. Canti or reg.
brake mounts, full touring mounts or not, 1" fork, threaded or not.
Pretty sweet option.

http://www.veloeuropa.com/cyfac/cyfac/cyfac-custom/page9/page9.html
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-23 Thread benzzoy


I'm on the list for more than a year now.  I spoke to Mark the last
time I was at RBWHQ and he said my number will be up at the end of the
year.  I am somewhat surprised because I had expected a longer wait
when I first signed up.  Regardless, I'm very excited, and have both a
running list of what details I want and a collection of Riv-ish parts
for it.

Like Jeff, I'm aiming for a randonneur-style frame with clearance for
a 30-section tire with fenders.  I believe Grant prefer rear racks but
I'm hoping he'll design a frame/fork suitable for a Berthoud or Acorn
front bag; perhaps Grant and Mark (Nobilette) may even consent to
brazing up a simple custom front rack. :)  I'm also quite partial
towards Paul Racer brakes so I will have centerpull brake boss braze-
ons.  The bike will also have Honjo fenders on it full-time so I'll be
requesting braze-ons and bridges that allow fitting fenders without
brackets or hangers.  Of course, for such an occasion as a new custom
Rivendell, I may indulge a little aesthetic upgrades.

Finally, and this is way out there, I may ask if he is willing to
design the bike around the PegoRichie tubeset.  I'm about 165 lbs wet
and quite easy on equipment, and the intended use of this bike will be
for fast and long jaunts (not racing!).  Nevertheless, I realize the
tubing sizes may not be compatible with the Rivendell lugset.
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-23 Thread JoelMatthews


>  guess one would use an IRD freewheel with the Phil hub.

Perhaps.  Some great NOS Regina and Suntour Winner Ultra freewheels
show up on eBay regularly.  Worth considering.

On Oct 23, 12:28 pm, Horace  wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:24 AM, Bill Connell  wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 12:16 PM, Horace  wrote:
>
> > > On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Jeff  wrote:
>
> > >>  7 speed dishless Phil wheels
>
> > > Is this with a freewheel or freehub? Does Rivendell sell these built up?
> > I
> > > think I want this.
>
> > These would be the freewheel hub that Riv had Phil make for them. I'm
> > sure they'd be happy to sell a complete wheel built on it.
>
> Yeah, I went to the Riv site to look at that. I guess one would use an IRD
> freewheel with the Phil hub.
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-23 Thread Mike


So Brad, I imagine you paid the price that a custom sold for at the
time you placed the order right? Congrats on the impending arrival of
the bike and be sure to post some pictures of it.

It's really too bad that Rivendell never got together a frame shop
like Bilenky, Indpenpendent or Mercian. But then again, if they were
focused on frames they wouldn't necessarily be doing the other cool
things they're doing--bags, desiging racks, etc.

--mike
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-23 Thread William F. House


How did you pick up the entire run of the Reader? I see some for sale
for $4 each on rivbike, but no mention of how to get the entire run.
How much does that run? Is it printed or all pdf?

Thanks!

On Oct 23, 11:04 am, Jeff  wrote:
> but after picking up the entire run of the
> Reader, I realized what I need, what I can't live without, is a
> Rivendell.  
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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-23 Thread Brad Gantt


I'm in the queue. Have been for 2 years. Mark N. is still building the
frames. I am getting a 700c drop barred Riv with clearance for 38s
with fenders. The build will be Riv spec including silver velocity
rims, King hubs, sidepull brakes, DA bar-end shifters, Nitto bar-stem-
post, etc. The color (chosen largely by my daughter) is HOK (House of
Kolor) Cinnamon Pearl. I expect to be able to throw a leg over it in
about a month, as JB is prepping and painting as I write. Can't wait!

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-23 Thread Horace

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:24 AM, Bill Connell  wrote:

>
> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 12:16 PM, Horace  wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Jeff  wrote:
> >>
> >>  7 speed dishless Phil wheels
> >
> > Is this with a freewheel or freehub? Does Rivendell sell these built up?
> I
> > think I want this.
>
> These would be the freewheel hub that Riv had Phil make for them. I'm
> sure they'd be happy to sell a complete wheel built on it.
>
>
Yeah, I went to the Riv site to look at that. I guess one would use an IRD
freewheel with the Phil hub.

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-23 Thread Doug Van Cleve

Who is doing the custom Rivendells these days?  It isn't still Mark
Nobilette, is it?  My impression is that he is pretty busy with his bikes
and the Rene Hearse bikes...

Doug


On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 6:47 AM, Mike  wrote:

>
> So I'm curious if anyone on this list is waiting on a custom
> Rivendell? If so, what kind of bike are you having built and what's
> the wait. I'm just curious. Per the Rivendell website it says waits
> are now like a year or so which is shorter than it was a few years
> ago.
>

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-23 Thread Bill Connell


On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 12:16 PM, Horace  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Jeff  wrote:
>>
>>  7 speed dishless Phil wheels
>
> Is this with a freewheel or freehub? Does Rivendell sell these built up? I
> think I want this.

These would be the freewheel hub that Riv had Phil make for them. I'm
sure they'd be happy to sell a complete wheel built on it.

-- 
Bill Connell
St. Paul, MN

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-23 Thread Horace

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Jeff  wrote:


>  7 speed dishless Phil wheels


Is this with a freewheel or freehub? Does Rivendell sell these built up? I
think I want this.

Horace.

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[RBW] Re: Who's in the queue for a custom Rivendell?

2009-10-23 Thread Jeff

I'm in the queue for a randonneur style frame.  I put in the paper
work in May and am about 1/3 paid off (hopefully 1/2 after next month)
so I'm glad there's a good long wait remaining.  For the longest time
I thought I wanted a Herse, but after picking up the entire run of the
Reader, I realized what I need, what I can't live without, is a
Rivendell.  Currently I ride a Heron Randonneur and just absolutely
love it.  I want the same geometry (73 head, 72 seat) for the custom,
but will set it up in more of a Rivendell style:  7 speed dishless
Phil wheels, Nitto lugged stem, Silver downtube shifters.

Mark said it'll be about a year wait.  Need to stay off of ebay and
make another payment on that frame. . .

Jeff

On Oct 23, 8:47 am, Mike  wrote:
> So I'm curious if anyone on this list is waiting on a custom
> Rivendell? If so, what kind of bike are you having built and what's
> the wait. I'm just curious. Per the Rivendell website it says waits
> are now like a year or so which is shorter than it was a few years
> ago.
>
> --mike
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