[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-21 Thread [email protected]


On Oct 21, 2:06 pm, John Speare  wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 12:46 PM, [email protected]
>
>  wrote:
>
> > Downside is I have some real nice XTR Ti cassettes in 8spd on
> > different wheelsets.
> > Maybe when I grind 'em down to nubs some day...
>
> Well. Let me help you out. Go ahead and send those out-dated XTR
> 8speed ti cassettes to me and I'll do that work for you.
>

Once again, y'all really come through on this group and know how to
help out.  How awesome is that!

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-21 Thread Garth
The industry will say anything to promote their goods. They'll
say  hey , we gotta cut costs, so we're just going to make 10
speed stuff only. Code for ... we can make more money. They are not
hurting making 7, 9 or 9 speed stuff.

The hard thing may be getting hubs. The aftermarket will have to step
up to offer 8/9 sp. bodies. I'm sure Phil Wood will keep them around.

I don't think SRAM or anyone else is going to stop making 8 speed
chains anytime remotely soon.

I'm still lamenting SRAM for buying Sachs and closing the FW factory.
Those FW's are great. I have yet to even come close to wearing one
out.



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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-21 Thread John Speare
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 12:46 PM, [email protected]
 wrote:
>
>
>
> Downside is I have some real nice XTR Ti cassettes in 8spd on
> different wheelsets.
> Maybe when I grind 'em down to nubs some day...
>

Well. Let me help you out. Go ahead and send those out-dated XTR
8speed ti cassettes to me and I'll do that work for you.

--
John Speare
Spokane, WA USA
http://cyclingspokane.blogspot.com/

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-21 Thread Montclair BobbyB
Steve, your assertion (sadly accurate as it may be) that "everybody's
moving to 10 speed or higher" only strengthens my resolve to never
give in to this madness, and not only will they be prying my dead
fingers off my 7-speed freewheel when they bury me, I'd like my
tombstone to read "MY 10-speed is a 2x5"...

I have to laugh at myself, because my 29er mountain bike has a carbon
9-speed derailleur, hydraulic brakes and tubeless rims (although it IS
steel with a steel fork, thank you), so therefore I don't qualify as a
true "luddite"... But when it comes to derailleured drivetrains, the
move to 10-speed and beyond will only create weaker components and
lessen index shifting tolerances.  This is simply moving us in the
wrong direction... It's NOT going to make the riding experience
better...

I'm all for gearing choices, but not at the expense of making a weaker
drivetrain.  Gee, I was in such a good mood... the mere mention of 10
speed cassettes always brings me down... I need a good ride on my
thick-chained 5 speed...

On Oct 19, 3:29 pm, doug peterson  wrote:
> Beth:
>
> Thank you for sharing your info from within the bike biz.  It has the
> cold ring of reality.  Since my now 7+ year old Atlantis is my only 8
> speed bike, and everything else around here is 7, I'm stocking up on
> chains.  I've been collecting 7 & 8 speed cassettes off the close out
> table for quite a while but a few more won't hurt.
>
> dougP
>
> On Oct 19, 12:04 pm, Beth H  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Here's a little more reality for you:
>
> > I spoke with a very knowledgable wholsale rep yesterday who told me
> > that we should expect to see all things 8-speed fade away in perhaps
> > two to three years. This is because of Mountain 10 drivetrains (10 x 2
> > or 10 x 3), which use basically the same components that road 10-speed
> > systems do and are therefore easier to mass-produce for big companies
> > like SRAM and Shimano. He had spoken with folks at both Shimano and
> > SRAM during the Interbike show and apparently they hinted at this
> > reality coming down the line. Said rep was told that continued support
> > for 8-speed drivetrains was not as profitable because it required
> > companies to produce two different kinds of chaincs and cassette cogs.
> > Basing both road and mountain drivetrains on a 10-speed system, with
> > its narrower chains and thinner cassette cogs, would simplify
> > production quicky. (It would also mean more sales, since these parts
> > wear out sooner; though the SRAM technician refused to comment on that
> > and guy from Shimano would only hint at it in the vaguest language.)
>
> > Based on discussions I had two years ago when Shimano stopped making 5-
> > speed freewheels and the only remaining choices were Sunrace (ick) and
> > IRD (decent, but expensive), I would say that this estimate bears more
> > than a shred of truth.
>
> > If you like 8-speed, this would be a good time to look for sales.
> > Don't forget that you'll want to stock up on 8-speed compatible
> > chains, too, since these will eventually fade like cassettes (though
> > not quite as quickly).
>
> > As for me, I've got a sizable stash of refurbished five- and six-speed
> > freewheels that will fit on my Phil hubs...
> > Beth "I'm not paranoid, just pragmatic" Hamon- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-21 Thread Steve Palincsar
On Thu, 2010-10-21 at 12:46 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> On Oct 21, 12:16 pm, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> > On Thu, 2010-10-21 at 10:07 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > > Thinking about converting my 8 speed to 9 as I like the cassette
> > > options w/ 34T cogs that it offers.  9 speed seems to be pretty proved
> > > and I do use index shifting.   Decisions, decisions..
> >
> > That's one of the easiest upgrade decisions you'll ever make.  Nothing
> > to it besides replacing shifters, cassette and chain.  Just do it.
> 
> Downside is I have some real nice XTR Ti cassettes in 8spd on
> different wheelsets.
> Maybe when I grind 'em down to nubs some day...


The obvious time for an upgrade is when you need to replace the chain and 
cassette anyway.



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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-21 Thread [email protected]


On Oct 21, 12:16 pm, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-10-21 at 10:07 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Thinking about converting my 8 speed to 9 as I like the cassette
> > options w/ 34T cogs that it offers.  9 speed seems to be pretty proved
> > and I do use index shifting.   Decisions, decisions..
>
> That's one of the easiest upgrade decisions you'll ever make.  Nothing
> to it besides replacing shifters, cassette and chain.  Just do it.

Downside is I have some real nice XTR Ti cassettes in 8spd on
different wheelsets.
Maybe when I grind 'em down to nubs some day...

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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-21 Thread Steve Palincsar
On Thu, 2010-10-21 at 10:07 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
> I was pleasantly surprised that my LBS sells 8 speed SRAM chains for
> pretty much the same as mail order prices.
> 
> Yeah, I should get a couple more...
> 
> Thinking about converting my 8 speed to 9 as I like the cassette
> options w/ 34T cogs that it offers.  9 speed seems to be pretty proved
> and I do use index shifting.   Decisions, decisions..


That's one of the easiest upgrade decisions you'll ever make.  Nothing
to it besides replacing shifters, cassette and chain.  Just do it.



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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-21 Thread Steve Palincsar
On Thu, 2010-10-21 at 13:36 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote:
> Is there any effective difference between a shimano hg40, 50  or 70 cassette?

The HG50 are black, the HG70 silver.  That's a big (cosmetic) difference
right there, and it matters a lot to some people.  Functionally, I'm not
so sure.  Personally, I've stockpiled several of the discontinued HG70 7
speed 13-30 cassettes...




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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-21 Thread Seth Vidal
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 1:07 PM, [email protected]
 wrote:
> I was pleasantly surprised that my LBS sells 8 speed SRAM chains for
> pretty much the same as mail order prices.
>
> Yeah, I should get a couple more...
>
> Thinking about converting my 8 speed to 9 as I like the cassette
> options w/ 34T cogs that it offers.  9 speed seems to be pretty proved
> and I do use index shifting.   Decisions, decisions...
>

Stupid question time.

Is there any effective difference between a shimano hg40, 50  or 70 cassette?

Ditto vis-a-vis the sram vs shimano?

or the chains, for that matter.

-sv

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-21 Thread [email protected]
I was pleasantly surprised that my LBS sells 8 speed SRAM chains for
pretty much the same as mail order prices.

Yeah, I should get a couple more...

Thinking about converting my 8 speed to 9 as I like the cassette
options w/ 34T cogs that it offers.  9 speed seems to be pretty proved
and I do use index shifting.   Decisions, decisions...

On Oct 21, 8:30 am, Mike  wrote:
> Currently you can get 8 speed chains and cassettes pretty cheap
> through a couple of sources. I think I'll stock up. But first, a bike
> ride on this beautiful fall day, the last before the rain begins.
>
> --mike

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-21 Thread Mike
Currently you can get 8 speed chains and cassettes pretty cheap
through a couple of sources. I think I'll stock up. But first, a bike
ride on this beautiful fall day, the last before the rain begins.

--mike

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide part two

2010-10-21 Thread RoadieRyan
After reading this again I realize I am coming off as a shill for
Nashbar, sorry not my intent.  I'd rather buy from RWB and I am glad
they are including a "econo" derailleur option.

On Oct 20, 9:09 pm, RoadieRyan  wrote:
> Grant appears to be using their Mountain RD which is 8/9, which
> Nashbar  stocks too.  Nashbar also sells a Microshift 10 speed road
> group with an RD per their site
>
> "The Nashbar 10 speed short cage rear derailleur has a total teeth
> capacity of 29T and a max rear sprocket size of 27T. 2:1 pull ratio is
> compatible with Shimano 10 speed components"
>
> Since friction doesn't really care a 10 speed RD would work fine if
> you didn't mind being restricted to 27 or 28 teeth on your Cassette/
> FW.  At $35, or $28 after their  20% off coupon, not a bad deal.
>
> I am mostly excited about the prospect of A) another option for bar
> end shifters and B) that it is possible to use a right (front) shifter
> on the Left (rear) in friction mode! never thought of that but its
> good to know.
>
> Ryan
>
> On Oct 20, 2:52 pm, cm  wrote:
>
> > I see this as a reaction against the big players (Shim, Camp, and
> > Sram). I believe there was a posting on the site that said it wouldnt
> > be too long before everything was 10 speed and 10 speed doesnt play
> > well with others. I think going to a smaller company who is looking to
> > be a player and working with them BEFORE we are all trolling 'bay like
> > addicts for 5- 9 speed components is very smart. Hopefully this will
> > create a nice market for market for Microshift who will invest in
> > their products. Seems like this approach has worked well with
> > components-- brakes come to mind.
>
> > Cheers!
> > cm

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide part two

2010-10-21 Thread Ginz
I wore out the pivot assembly on an XTR M95x.  The upper pully was
grinding on the cassette no matter what I did.  $25 and 20 minutes
later, the new pivot spring brought it back to life.

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide part two

2010-10-20 Thread RoadieRyan
Grant appears to be using their Mountain RD which is 8/9, which
Nashbar  stocks too.  Nashbar also sells a Microshift 10 speed road
group with an RD per their site

"The Nashbar 10 speed short cage rear derailleur has a total teeth
capacity of 29T and a max rear sprocket size of 27T. 2:1 pull ratio is
compatible with Shimano 10 speed components"

Since friction doesn't really care a 10 speed RD would work fine if
you didn't mind being restricted to 27 or 28 teeth on your Cassette/
FW.  At $35, or $28 after their  20% off coupon, not a bad deal.

I am mostly excited about the prospect of A) another option for bar
end shifters and B) that it is possible to use a right (front) shifter
on the Left (rear) in friction mode! never thought of that but its
good to know.

Ryan

On Oct 20, 2:52 pm, cm  wrote:
> I see this as a reaction against the big players (Shim, Camp, and
> Sram). I believe there was a posting on the site that said it wouldnt
> be too long before everything was 10 speed and 10 speed doesnt play
> well with others. I think going to a smaller company who is looking to
> be a player and working with them BEFORE we are all trolling 'bay like
> addicts for 5- 9 speed components is very smart. Hopefully this will
> create a nice market for market for Microshift who will invest in
> their products. Seems like this approach has worked well with
> components-- brakes come to mind.
>
> Cheers!
> cm

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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide part two

2010-10-20 Thread CycloFiend
on 10/20/10 2:28 PM, doug peterson at [email protected] wrote:

> All this talk about longevity me thinking:  How long does a rear
> derailer last?  

I've worn out a couple - an old "Deer Head" Deore which was the original on
my '83 Montare mtb. Towards the end, you could actually feel the slop as you
shifted (friction thumbies). It wouldn't reliably hold in the lowest (6
speed) sprocket and was iffy shifting down to the highest gear (yep, new
cables/housing).  That bike saw a lot of hours and learning.  The other was
an XT (silver/black circa '93). That was on another mtb and it just tended
not to shift after a while. Both of those were long cage.

Maybe 6 years of pretty hard, off-road use under all kinds of conditions.

I've got road derailleurs which keep plugging along, but most were
600/Ultegra or higher. And now I put more miles on derailleur-less
systems... ;^)

- J

-- 
Jim Edgar
[email protected]

Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide part two

2010-10-20 Thread cm
I see this as a reaction against the big players (Shim, Camp, and
Sram). I believe there was a posting on the site that said it wouldnt
be too long before everything was 10 speed and 10 speed doesnt play
well with others. I think going to a smaller company who is looking to
be a player and working with them BEFORE we are all trolling 'bay like
addicts for 5- 9 speed components is very smart. Hopefully this will
create a nice market for market for Microshift who will invest in
their products. Seems like this approach has worked well with
components-- brakes come to mind.

Cheers!
cm

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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide part two

2010-10-20 Thread Steve Palincsar
On Wed, 2010-10-20 at 14:31 -0700, Eric Norris wrote:
> I've never worn out a rear derailleur, although I have had to replace
> jockey pulleys.

I wore out -- as in, it became very sloppy and shifting became imprecise
-- a Shimano Titlist GS in a couple of years back around 1974.  I
replaced it with a SunTour VGT Luxe that lasted at least 15 years and
was fine when the bike it was on was stolen.  I've never worn out a
recent vintage Shimano rear derailleur.



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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide part two

2010-10-20 Thread Eric Norris
I've never worn out a rear derailleur, although I have had to replace jockey 
pulleys. Classic Campagnolo derailleurs, with bronze bushings, will last for 
decades (I have a 1972 rear der that I'm still using).  Modern indexed systems 
have less tolerance for wear and may not last as long, but kept reasonably 
clean and lubes they should have a long lifetime. 

—Eric N

On Oct 20, 2010, at 2:28 PM, doug peterson  wrote:

> All this talk about longevity me thinking:  How long does a rear
> derailer last?  Since the RD gets used the most, is hanging in the
> breeze, and has constantly moving parts, it should wear out sooner
> than anything else (excepting tires & brakes).  The RD on my Atlantis
> is the original from early '03.  The logos are long gone but the
> invoice lists it as "Deore Silver" and Riv charged $45 for it as part
> of the build, if that gives a clue to the grade.  It's gone at least
> 30k miles, mostly in a dry climate.  It has been drenched and gotten
> filthy many times though.  Maintenance consists of blowing it out with
> Tri-Flow once or twice a year.  It still seems to work fine.  Bike is
> 8 speed friction.
> 
> Do you guys in wet or dusty climates find derailers wear to the point
> of poor shifting?  I realize it's going to be a function of climate,
> cleanliness, maintenance and mileage, but I can't recall ever actually
> wearing one out.  And I've worn out plenty of cogs, chains, and
> chainrings, so it's not any maintenance magic on my part.  Thoughts?
> 
> dougP
> 
> On Oct 20, 12:28 pm, Michael_S  wrote:
>> Grant just posted a follow up post with the installation of the
>> aforementioned Microshift "groupo" on his Hilsen.
>> They look nice  from afar... the key question as Jim mentions... will
>> they still work good a couple of years down the road/trail. Like
>> everything testing and use will tell us more about their potential
>> longevity.http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/news_post/298
>> 
>> ~Mike~
>> 
>> On Oct 20, 11:14 am, CycloFiend  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> on 10/19/10 8:26 AM, Peter Pesce at [email protected] wrote:
>> 
 I can't say I understand the need for this either?
 I must be missing something - what does this stuff do that low end
 Shimano wouldn't do?
>> 
 I can understand Riv selling low-end thumb shifters, because there's a
 big leap from $16 to $150+ for DuraAce/Thumbies.
 But a low end Alivio or something rear derailer can be had for under
 30 bucks.
>> 
>>> The issue with modern derailleurs is not that they don't work well out of
>>> the box.  They all shift well.  The better stuff tends to shift well
>>> _longer_.  
>> 
>>> The Alivio works ok, but if Microshift brings out an inexpensive derailleur
>>> which has been designed to withstand more frequent, regular use, then the
>>> comparison is not entirely appropriate.
>> 
>>> Forging rather than stamping, quality of bushings, tolerance of manufacture
>>> are what differentiate Alivio from DuraAce.  Everytime you shift, there's a
>>> pretty good torque on the cage and body.  Cheaper bits wear faster.
>> 
>>> So, if the inexpensive derailleur which had the durability of an upper end
>>> model would be a good thing.
>> 
>>> - Jim
>> 
>>> --
>>> Jim Edgar
>>> [email protected]
>> 
>>> Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries -http://www.cyclofiend.com
>>> Current Classics - Cross Bikes
>>> Singlespeed - Working Bikes
>> 
>>> Your Photos are needed! - Send them here 
>>> -http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines
>> 
>>> "I threw one leg over my battle-scarred all-terrain stump-jumper and rode
>>> several miles to work. I'd sprayed it with some cheap gold paint so it
>>> wouldn't look nice. Locked my bike to a radiator, because you never knew,
>>> and went in."
>>> -- Neal Stephenson, "Zodiac"- Hide quoted text -
>> 
>> - Show quoted text -
> 
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[RBW] Re: worlds collide part two

2010-10-20 Thread doug peterson
All this talk about longevity me thinking:  How long does a rear
derailer last?  Since the RD gets used the most, is hanging in the
breeze, and has constantly moving parts, it should wear out sooner
than anything else (excepting tires & brakes).  The RD on my Atlantis
is the original from early '03.  The logos are long gone but the
invoice lists it as "Deore Silver" and Riv charged $45 for it as part
of the build, if that gives a clue to the grade.  It's gone at least
30k miles, mostly in a dry climate.  It has been drenched and gotten
filthy many times though.  Maintenance consists of blowing it out with
Tri-Flow once or twice a year.  It still seems to work fine.  Bike is
8 speed friction.

Do you guys in wet or dusty climates find derailers wear to the point
of poor shifting?  I realize it's going to be a function of climate,
cleanliness, maintenance and mileage, but I can't recall ever actually
wearing one out.  And I've worn out plenty of cogs, chains, and
chainrings, so it's not any maintenance magic on my part.  Thoughts?

dougP

On Oct 20, 12:28 pm, Michael_S  wrote:
> Grant just posted a follow up post with the installation of the
> aforementioned Microshift "groupo" on his Hilsen.
> They look nice  from afar... the key question as Jim mentions... will
> they still work good a couple of years down the road/trail. Like
> everything testing and use will tell us more about their potential
> longevity.http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/news_post/298
>
> ~Mike~
>
> On Oct 20, 11:14 am, CycloFiend  wrote:
>
>
>
> > on 10/19/10 8:26 AM, Peter Pesce at [email protected] wrote:
>
> > > I can't say I understand the need for this either?
> > > I must be missing something - what does this stuff do that low end
> > > Shimano wouldn't do?
>
> > > I can understand Riv selling low-end thumb shifters, because there's a
> > > big leap from $16 to $150+ for DuraAce/Thumbies.
> > > But a low end Alivio or something rear derailer can be had for under
> > > 30 bucks.
>
> > The issue with modern derailleurs is not that they don't work well out of
> > the box.  They all shift well.  The better stuff tends to shift well
> > _longer_.  
>
> > The Alivio works ok, but if Microshift brings out an inexpensive derailleur
> > which has been designed to withstand more frequent, regular use, then the
> > comparison is not entirely appropriate.
>
> > Forging rather than stamping, quality of bushings, tolerance of manufacture
> > are what differentiate Alivio from DuraAce.  Everytime you shift, there's a
> > pretty good torque on the cage and body.  Cheaper bits wear faster.
>
> > So, if the inexpensive derailleur which had the durability of an upper end
> > model would be a good thing.
>
> > - Jim
>
> > --
> > Jim Edgar
> > [email protected]
>
> > Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries -http://www.cyclofiend.com
> > Current Classics - Cross Bikes
> > Singlespeed - Working Bikes
>
> > Your Photos are needed! - Send them here 
> > -http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines
>
> > "I threw one leg over my battle-scarred all-terrain stump-jumper and rode
> > several miles to work. I'd sprayed it with some cheap gold paint so it
> > wouldn't look nice. Locked my bike to a radiator, because you never knew,
> > and went in."
> > -- Neal Stephenson, "Zodiac"- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide part two

2010-10-20 Thread Michael_S
Grant just posted a follow up post with the installation of the
aforementioned Microshift "groupo" on his Hilsen.
They look nice  from afar... the key question as Jim mentions... will
they still work good a couple of years down the road/trail. Like
everything testing and use will tell us more about their potential
longevity.
http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/news_post/298

~Mike~

On Oct 20, 11:14 am, CycloFiend  wrote:
> on 10/19/10 8:26 AM, Peter Pesce at [email protected] wrote:
>
> > I can't say I understand the need for this either?
> > I must be missing something - what does this stuff do that low end
> > Shimano wouldn't do?
>
> > I can understand Riv selling low-end thumb shifters, because there's a
> > big leap from $16 to $150+ for DuraAce/Thumbies.
> > But a low end Alivio or something rear derailer can be had for under
> > 30 bucks.
>
> The issue with modern derailleurs is not that they don't work well out of
> the box.  They all shift well.  The better stuff tends to shift well
> _longer_.  
>
> The Alivio works ok, but if Microshift brings out an inexpensive derailleur
> which has been designed to withstand more frequent, regular use, then the
> comparison is not entirely appropriate.
>
> Forging rather than stamping, quality of bushings, tolerance of manufacture
> are what differentiate Alivio from DuraAce.  Everytime you shift, there's a
> pretty good torque on the cage and body.  Cheaper bits wear faster.
>
> So, if the inexpensive derailleur which had the durability of an upper end
> model would be a good thing.
>
> - Jim
>
> --
> Jim Edgar
> [email protected]
>
> Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries -http://www.cyclofiend.com
> Current Classics - Cross Bikes
> Singlespeed - Working Bikes
>
> Your Photos are needed! - Send them here -http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines
>
> "I threw one leg over my battle-scarred all-terrain stump-jumper and rode
> several miles to work. I'd sprayed it with some cheap gold paint so it
> wouldn't look nice. Locked my bike to a radiator, because you never knew,
> and went in."
> -- Neal Stephenson, "Zodiac"

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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-20 Thread CycloFiend
on 10/19/10 8:26 AM, Peter Pesce at [email protected] wrote:

> I can't say I understand the need for this either?
> I must be missing something - what does this stuff do that low end
> Shimano wouldn't do?
> 
> I can understand Riv selling low-end thumb shifters, because there's a
> big leap from $16 to $150+ for DuraAce/Thumbies.
> But a low end Alivio or something rear derailer can be had for under
> 30 bucks.

The issue with modern derailleurs is not that they don't work well out of
the box.  They all shift well.  The better stuff tends to shift well
_longer_.  

The Alivio works ok, but if Microshift brings out an inexpensive derailleur
which has been designed to withstand more frequent, regular use, then the
comparison is not entirely appropriate.

Forging rather than stamping, quality of bushings, tolerance of manufacture
are what differentiate Alivio from DuraAce.  Everytime you shift, there's a
pretty good torque on the cage and body.  Cheaper bits wear faster.

So, if the inexpensive derailleur which had the durability of an upper end
model would be a good thing.

- Jim

-- 
Jim Edgar
[email protected]

Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes

Your Photos are needed! - Send them here -
http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines


"I threw one leg over my battle-scarred all-terrain stump-jumper and rode
several miles to work. I'd sprayed it with some cheap gold paint so it
wouldn't look nice. Locked my bike to a radiator, because you never knew,
and went in."
-- Neal Stephenson, "Zodiac"

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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread Steve Palincsar
On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 12:00 -0700, bfd wrote:
> That's always been Grant/Riv's thing, buy a $3K+ custom frame then put
> on zip ties or use low end components like those $24 single pivot
> brakes with no q/r he use to sell.

I remember those brakes.  They had plenty of reach and clearance, and
this was at a time when there were very few long reach side pull brakes
available.  



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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread Steve Palincsar
On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 12:42 -0700, Garth wrote:
> 7 speed cassette stuff became hard to find,

As far as I know, every gearing combination originally available for 7
speed cassettes is still available, although it's true the HG70s have
been discontinued.  7 is more widely available than 8: in the wide range
cassettes, all you can find in 8 speed now start with 11 teeth.  The
12-x have all been discontinued.





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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread Garth

You could see this coming from Shimano like a freight train on a
moonless night. 7 speed cassette stuff became hard to find, then they
only offered the cassettes in black. Their 8sp. cs selection has
shrunk.

But hey ,there will be a market for the 8 and 9sp. stuff. While many
have updrage-itis, many do not. We live in a time when the market
needs not be dominated by just a few.

I'm glad I stuck with freewheels all these years. More than 7 gears is
just no fun with friction. I don't know what has happened with the IRD
FW's. They're still having QC issues with them, and Riv stopped
selling them for some reason. Velo Orange has spoke of getting some FW
made, but they will likely be for road use. Is making a decent FW that
hard?  I don't know  I wouldn't think so.

The derailers .. hey  . we could use some new ones besides
SRAM  and Shimano. Frankly, I'm not all that impressed with Shimano's
current ones. My chain rattles all over the place on bumpy roads due
to the weaker springs designed for "easier" shifts. The Microshift
ones may or may not be any better. Nashbar sells them right now minus
the Microshift label.

Is making a decent derailer so hard too? Maybe it is maybe not.
The public is all to often like cows  just going along with what
they are given. I have not much appealing innovation since Suntour
crashed many years ago.

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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread John Speare
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Beth H  wrote:
>
> Here's a little more reality for you:
>
> I spoke with a very knowledgable wholsale rep yesterday who told me
> that we should expect to see all things 8-speed fade away in perhaps
> two to three years. This is because of Mountain 10 drivetrains (10 x 2
> or 10 x 3), which use basically the same components that road 10-speed
> systems do and are therefore easier to mass-produce for big companies
> like SRAM and Shimano. He had spoken with folks at both Shimano and
> SRAM during the Interbike show and apparently they hinted at this
> reality coming down the line. Said rep was told that continued support
> for 8-speed drivetrains was not as profitable because it required
> companies to produce two different kinds of chaincs and cassette cogs.
> Basing both road and mountain drivetrains on a 10-speed system, with
> its narrower chains and thinner cassette cogs, would simplify
> production quicky. (It would also mean more sales, since these parts
> wear out sooner; though the SRAM technician refused to comment on that
> and guy from Shimano would only hint at it in the vaguest language.)
>
> Based on discussions I had two years ago when Shimano stopped making 5-
> speed freewheels and the only remaining choices were Sunrace (ick) and
> IRD (decent, but expensive), I would say that this estimate bears more
> than a shred of truth.
>
> If you like 8-speed, this would be a good time to look for sales.
> Don't forget that you'll want to stock up on 8-speed compatible
> chains, too, since these will eventually fade like cassettes (though
> not quite as quickly).
>
> As for me, I've got a sizable stash of refurbished five- and six-speed
> freewheels that will fit on my Phil hubs...
> Beth "I'm not paranoid, just pragmatic" Hamon
>
> --


I see this as already-pretty-much the case: you can find 8 speed
chains and cassettes which are ok and I expect them to be around for
many years; there are just too many bikes out there with 8 speed
drivetrains, and low-end bikes still ship with new 8 speed Shimano
stuff.

But the bummer is finding good quality 8-speed stuff: shifters and
cassettes mainly.

The XTR cassettes dried up at the LBS's a long time ago. You can still
get them on ebay, but they are pricey. I'm ok with SRAM 8 spd but
they're no XTR.

Shifting is a killer already: good luck finding 8-spd DT shifters or
good STI systems under $100. That's a bummer. I'm all for friction but
for CX or mountain biking with drop bars, I like STI. And I like
indexed DT shifters...

I suppose I'll switch to 9 speeds in a couple years when my current
stock of STI stuff finally blows up for good.


--
John Speare
Spokane, WA USA
http://cyclingspokane.blogspot.com/

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread doug peterson
Beth:

Thank you for sharing your info from within the bike biz.  It has the
cold ring of reality.  Since my now 7+ year old Atlantis is my only 8
speed bike, and everything else around here is 7, I'm stocking up on
chains.  I've been collecting 7 & 8 speed cassettes off the close out
table for quite a while but a few more won't hurt.

dougP

On Oct 19, 12:04 pm, Beth H  wrote:
> Here's a little more reality for you:
>
> I spoke with a very knowledgable wholsale rep yesterday who told me
> that we should expect to see all things 8-speed fade away in perhaps
> two to three years. This is because of Mountain 10 drivetrains (10 x 2
> or 10 x 3), which use basically the same components that road 10-speed
> systems do and are therefore easier to mass-produce for big companies
> like SRAM and Shimano. He had spoken with folks at both Shimano and
> SRAM during the Interbike show and apparently they hinted at this
> reality coming down the line. Said rep was told that continued support
> for 8-speed drivetrains was not as profitable because it required
> companies to produce two different kinds of chaincs and cassette cogs.
> Basing both road and mountain drivetrains on a 10-speed system, with
> its narrower chains and thinner cassette cogs, would simplify
> production quicky. (It would also mean more sales, since these parts
> wear out sooner; though the SRAM technician refused to comment on that
> and guy from Shimano would only hint at it in the vaguest language.)
>
> Based on discussions I had two years ago when Shimano stopped making 5-
> speed freewheels and the only remaining choices were Sunrace (ick) and
> IRD (decent, but expensive), I would say that this estimate bears more
> than a shred of truth.
>
> If you like 8-speed, this would be a good time to look for sales.
> Don't forget that you'll want to stock up on 8-speed compatible
> chains, too, since these will eventually fade like cassettes (though
> not quite as quickly).
>
> As for me, I've got a sizable stash of refurbished five- and six-speed
> freewheels that will fit on my Phil hubs...
> Beth "I'm not paranoid, just pragmatic" Hamon

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread Beth H
Here's a little more reality for you:

I spoke with a very knowledgable wholsale rep yesterday who told me
that we should expect to see all things 8-speed fade away in perhaps
two to three years. This is because of Mountain 10 drivetrains (10 x 2
or 10 x 3), which use basically the same components that road 10-speed
systems do and are therefore easier to mass-produce for big companies
like SRAM and Shimano. He had spoken with folks at both Shimano and
SRAM during the Interbike show and apparently they hinted at this
reality coming down the line. Said rep was told that continued support
for 8-speed drivetrains was not as profitable because it required
companies to produce two different kinds of chaincs and cassette cogs.
Basing both road and mountain drivetrains on a 10-speed system, with
its narrower chains and thinner cassette cogs, would simplify
production quicky. (It would also mean more sales, since these parts
wear out sooner; though the SRAM technician refused to comment on that
and guy from Shimano would only hint at it in the vaguest language.)

Based on discussions I had two years ago when Shimano stopped making 5-
speed freewheels and the only remaining choices were Sunrace (ick) and
IRD (decent, but expensive), I would say that this estimate bears more
than a shred of truth.

If you like 8-speed, this would be a good time to look for sales.
Don't forget that you'll want to stock up on 8-speed compatible
chains, too, since these will eventually fade like cassettes (though
not quite as quickly).

As for me, I've got a sizable stash of refurbished five- and six-speed
freewheels that will fit on my Phil hubs...
Beth "I'm not paranoid, just pragmatic" Hamon

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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread Seth Vidal
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 3:00 PM, bfd  wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 19, 10:03 am, Johnny Alien  wrote:
>> I'm sure it's fine but I personally don't see the need to go super
>> cheap on a component that I am buying for a $1500 + frame.  Seems a
>> little backwards.
>
> That's always been Grant/Riv's thing, buy a $3K+ custom frame then put
> on zip ties or use low end components like those $24 single pivot
> brakes with no q/r he use to sell. Yes, it worked (barely), but sure
> didn't look good.  Further, using things like non-aero brakes with
> cables hanging out never made any sense as they made his nice frames
> look like old "10 speed" bikes that use to sell for $200. Good Luck!
>

I hate to say this - but bfd - it feels like either:

1. you have an ax to grind
or
2. you're intentionally trolling this mailing list.

In either case I'd appreciate it if you would stop.

-sv

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread bfd


On Oct 19, 10:03 am, Johnny Alien  wrote:
> I'm sure it's fine but I personally don't see the need to go super
> cheap on a component that I am buying for a $1500 + frame.  Seems a
> little backwards.

That's always been Grant/Riv's thing, buy a $3K+ custom frame then put
on zip ties or use low end components like those $24 single pivot
brakes with no q/r he use to sell. Yes, it worked (barely), but sure
didn't look good.  Further, using things like non-aero brakes with
cables hanging out never made any sense as they made his nice frames
look like old "10 speed" bikes that use to sell for $200. Good Luck!

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread mike

I think looking at other derailers is the direct result of what Grant
wrote on 2 October (knothole):

"So we're planning for that inevitable and maybe even imminent
extinction [of <10 speed]"

And I agree with MKahrl, that how well a rear derailer works with any
sort of indexing shifter is pretty much irrelevant to me.  If the
thing is durable, keeps alignment, and doesn't misbehave, I'm probably
OK with it.  Looking pretty would be a plus, but sometimes I think
looking like crap and working well is a virtue with things that
sometimes attract theft.

I know next to nothing about Microshift, so I have no idea if their
stuff meets the "durable, etc" features I want.

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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread Steve Palincsar
On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 11:06 -0700, Peter Pesce wrote:
> Also, If their philosophy is to provide things that otherwise wouldn't
> be available if they didn't make them, which I think is an awesome
> mission statement, I don't see where cheap derailers fit in. The work
> will always be full of them.

Now that everybody's moving to 10 speed or higher, with even thinner
chains (and in the case of Shimano, different cable pull for the RD) you
can't count on a handy supply of new 9-speed compatible derailleurs or
shifters.  If you don't care to go to 10, that's a non-trivial thing.



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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread Steve Palincsar
On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 07:18 -0700, James Warren wrote:
> 
> As long as I can use index bar-end shifters in 9 rear and friction
> front and use a largest cog of 34T, I don't care what brand it says on
> the derailleur.
> 

And if Shimano is no longer interested in supporting 9 speed shifters,
it's nice there's someone who is.



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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread Peter Pesce
I agree, and I can can't see how it helps Riv's brand perception to be
selling the cheapest and/or highest margin stuff out there.
I actually don't see why they have to sell derailers at all.
Also, If their philosophy is to provide things that otherwise wouldn't
be available if they didn't make them, which I think is an awesome
mission statement, I don't see where cheap derailers fit in. The work
will always be full of them. Now, maybe if they specially commissioned
a totally bomb-proof, friction-only only rear derailer with a classic
Campy or Simplex look, THAT might qualify.
I guess it doesn't matter, really, and the sooner I stop trying to
figure out why Grant does certain things the happier I'll be! :)

On Oct 19, 1:03 pm, Johnny Alien  wrote:
> I'm sure it's fine but I personally don't see the need to go super
> cheap on a component that I am buying for a $1500 + frame.  Seems a
> little backwards.

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread Johnny Alien
I'm sure it's fine but I personally don't see the need to go super
cheap on a component that I am buying for a $1500 + frame.  Seems a
little backwards.

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread bfd
Agree, besides fluctuation of the yen, another reason might be profit
margin. That Shimano RD might retail for $30, but cost Riv $20. In
contrast, the Microshift RD might also retail for $30, but cost Riv
only $12. If that's the case, can you blame Riv for sourcing the
cheaper derailleur when it does the exact same thing? Good Luck!

On Oct 19, 9:49 am, doug peterson  wrote:
> We may be seeing the effect of currency fluctuations.  Grant has
> commented that the steady upward trend of the yen is a headache.
> Speculation on my part but perhaps a decent quality Shimano RD for $30
> won't be around much longer?  Or Riv feels the need for 2 sources of
> supply?  As to quality, with modern manufacturing technology I
> wouldn't be concerned about the derailers.  Recall Grant's comment
> about the least necessary part on your bike - the FD.
>
> dougP
>
> On Oct 19, 8:26 am, Peter Pesce  wrote:
>
> > I can't say I understand the need for this either?
> > I must be missing something - what does this stuff do that low end
> > Shimano wouldn't do?
>
> > I can understand Riv selling low-end thumb shifters, because there's a
> > big leap from $16 to $150+ for DuraAce/Thumbies.
> > But a low end Alivio or something rear derailer can be had for under
> > 30 bucks.
>
> > On Oct 18, 11:54 pm, Seth Vidal  wrote:
>
> > > Just read grant's new post about 
> > > deraillers:http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/knothole_post/297
>
> > > And I did a little looking into the microshift deraillers.
>
> > > And I found 
> > > this:http://www.microshift.biz/pviewitem1.asp?sn=791&area=51&cat=184#
>
> > > Now it's only funny to me or to others who might work in my field -
> > > but I used to help build the centos OS and the idea of having a centos
> > > derailler by microshift amuses me to no end.
>
> > > other than that it's pretty good looking.
>
> > > anyone actually used any of these yet?
> > > -sv- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread doug peterson
We may be seeing the effect of currency fluctuations.  Grant has
commented that the steady upward trend of the yen is a headache.
Speculation on my part but perhaps a decent quality Shimano RD for $30
won't be around much longer?  Or Riv feels the need for 2 sources of
supply?  As to quality, with modern manufacturing technology I
wouldn't be concerned about the derailers.  Recall Grant's comment
about the least necessary part on your bike - the FD.

dougP

On Oct 19, 8:26 am, Peter Pesce  wrote:
> I can't say I understand the need for this either?
> I must be missing something - what does this stuff do that low end
> Shimano wouldn't do?
>
> I can understand Riv selling low-end thumb shifters, because there's a
> big leap from $16 to $150+ for DuraAce/Thumbies.
> But a low end Alivio or something rear derailer can be had for under
> 30 bucks.
>
> On Oct 18, 11:54 pm, Seth Vidal  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Just read grant's new post about 
> > deraillers:http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/knothole_post/297
>
> > And I did a little looking into the microshift deraillers.
>
> > And I found 
> > this:http://www.microshift.biz/pviewitem1.asp?sn=791&area=51&cat=184#
>
> > Now it's only funny to me or to others who might work in my field -
> > but I used to help build the centos OS and the idea of having a centos
> > derailler by microshift amuses me to no end.
>
> > other than that it's pretty good looking.
>
> > anyone actually used any of these yet?
> > -sv- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread Peter Pesce
I can't say I understand the need for this either?
I must be missing something - what does this stuff do that low end
Shimano wouldn't do?

I can understand Riv selling low-end thumb shifters, because there's a
big leap from $16 to $150+ for DuraAce/Thumbies.
But a low end Alivio or something rear derailer can be had for under
30 bucks.


On Oct 18, 11:54 pm, Seth Vidal  wrote:
> Just read grant's new post about 
> deraillers:http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/knothole_post/297
>
> And I did a little looking into the microshift deraillers.
>
> And I found 
> this:http://www.microshift.biz/pviewitem1.asp?sn=791&area=51&cat=184#
>
> Now it's only funny to me or to others who might work in my field -
> but I used to help build the centos OS and the idea of having a centos
> derailler by microshift amuses me to no end.
>
> other than that it's pretty good looking.
>
> anyone actually used any of these yet?
> -sv

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread Michael_S
kinda partial to 7 or 8 speed myself. I have one bike set up with 10
speed campy index bar ends and an 8 speed XTR cassette... works great.

funy thing to me is they all say max 28T cassette, even the long cage
ones. Whats up wit dat?

~Mike~

On Oct 19, 7:18 am, James Warren  wrote:
> As long as I can use index bar-end shifters in 9 rear and friction front and 
> use a largest cog of 34T, I don't care what brand it says on the derailleur.
>
> On Oct 19, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Seth Vidal wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:00 AM, MKahrl  wrote:
> >> Most of the discussion on other forums about Microshift centers on how
> >> well the brifters work and how well the rear derailers work with other
> >> manufacturer's brifters.  From RBW's point of view (and mine) these
> >> concerns are meaningless since we use friction shifters.  I have not
> >> found anything to indicate that the derailers themselves don't shift
> >> just as crisply as any other of any price group on the market.
>
> > And at least from a cosmetic standpoint the all silver microshift ones
> > look, for the world like a ultegra 6500rd.
>
> > I dunno how well they last but I suspect, like a lot of things, they
> > are substantially better than average.
>
> > -sv
>
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> > For more options, visit this group 
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>
> - Show quoted text -

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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread James Warren

As long as I can use index bar-end shifters in 9 rear and friction front and 
use a largest cog of 34T, I don't care what brand it says on the derailleur.


On Oct 19, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Seth Vidal wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:00 AM, MKahrl  wrote:
>> Most of the discussion on other forums about Microshift centers on how
>> well the brifters work and how well the rear derailers work with other
>> manufacturer's brifters.  From RBW's point of view (and mine) these
>> concerns are meaningless since we use friction shifters.  I have not
>> found anything to indicate that the derailers themselves don't shift
>> just as crisply as any other of any price group on the market.
>> 
> 
> And at least from a cosmetic standpoint the all silver microshift ones
> look, for the world like a ultegra 6500rd.
> 
> I dunno how well they last but I suspect, like a lot of things, they
> are substantially better than average.
> 
> -sv
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread Seth Vidal
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:00 AM, MKahrl  wrote:
> Most of the discussion on other forums about Microshift centers on how
> well the brifters work and how well the rear derailers work with other
> manufacturer's brifters.  From RBW's point of view (and mine) these
> concerns are meaningless since we use friction shifters.  I have not
> found anything to indicate that the derailers themselves don't shift
> just as crisply as any other of any price group on the market.
>

And at least from a cosmetic standpoint the all silver microshift ones
look, for the world like a ultegra 6500rd.

I dunno how well they last but I suspect, like a lot of things, they
are substantially better than average.

-sv

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread MKahrl
Most of the discussion on other forums about Microshift centers on how
well the brifters work and how well the rear derailers work with other
manufacturer's brifters.  From RBW's point of view (and mine) these
concerns are meaningless since we use friction shifters.  I have not
found anything to indicate that the derailers themselves don't shift
just as crisply as any other of any price group on the market.

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread EricP
But if the other option is to offer only 9 or 10 speed, maybe going to
a different brand will be necessary.  While 9 speed derailers will
work with older technology, unsure if 10 speed will do the same.  Or
11 speed for that matter.

>From looking through the Microshift website, didn't see anything that
appealed to my eyes.  But that is my bias.  Will probably grab some
older, black, Shimano derailers for use in the future.

Or, will swap one of the bikes over to a 2x10 wide range setup and see
how that works.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

On Oct 19, 7:23 am, MichaelH  wrote:
> I certainly wouldn't dispute Grant's observation that there are times
> when we need to compromise for the sake of economy, but when you don't
> have to, don't.
>
> This summer I converted my Ram to a CD with an 11-28 cassette and then
> put the new Shimano 6700RD on there.  It replaced a mid-range Centaur
> & triple set up that shifted very well.  But this derailer is
> incredibly smooth and accurate.  I'm glad I spent the money.
>
> Michael
>
> On Oct 18, 11:54 pm, Seth Vidal  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Just read grant's new post about 
> > deraillers:http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/knothole_post/297
>
> > And I did a little looking into the microshift deraillers.
>
> > And I found 
> > this:http://www.microshift.biz/pviewitem1.asp?sn=791&area=51&cat=184#
>
> > Now it's only funny to me or to others who might work in my field -
> > but I used to help build the centos OS and the idea of having a centos
> > derailler by microshift amuses me to no end.
>
> > other than that it's pretty good looking.
>
> > anyone actually used any of these yet?
> > -sv- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread MichaelH
I certainly wouldn't dispute Grant's observation that there are times
when we need to compromise for the sake of economy, but when you don't
have to, don't.

This summer I converted my Ram to a CD with an 11-28 cassette and then
put the new Shimano 6700RD on there.  It replaced a mid-range Centaur
& triple set up that shifted very well.  But this derailer is
incredibly smooth and accurate.  I'm glad I spent the money.

Michael

On Oct 18, 11:54 pm, Seth Vidal  wrote:
> Just read grant's new post about 
> deraillers:http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/knothole_post/297
>
> And I did a little looking into the microshift deraillers.
>
> And I found 
> this:http://www.microshift.biz/pviewitem1.asp?sn=791&area=51&cat=184#
>
> Now it's only funny to me or to others who might work in my field -
> but I used to help build the centos OS and the idea of having a centos
> derailler by microshift amuses me to no end.
>
> other than that it's pretty good looking.
>
> anyone actually used any of these yet?
> -sv

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Re: [RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread Steve Palincsar
On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 04:48 -0700, Johnny Alien wrote:
> > I think Microshift makes the dérailleurs and shifters that Nashbar and
> > others rebadge.
> 
> This is true.  I have not heard fantastic things I am a little shocked
> they will be carrying them.


I guess the real question is, how much of the negative chat is due to prejudice 
and how much to actual poor performance?



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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-19 Thread Johnny Alien
> I think Microshift makes the dérailleurs and shifters that Nashbar and
> others rebadge.

This is true.  I have not heard fantastic things I am a little shocked
they will be carrying them.

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[RBW] Re: worlds collide

2010-10-18 Thread Michael_S
I don't get the short cage dérailleur that's the same as a long cage?
I think something got lost in translation.
I think Microshift makes the dérailleurs and shifters that Nashbar and
others rebadge.

Personally I still swear by my Suntour stuff.

~Mike~

On Oct 18, 8:54 pm, Seth Vidal  wrote:
> Just read grant's new post about 
> deraillers:http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/knothole_post/297
>
> And I did a little looking into the microshift deraillers.
>
> And I found 
> this:http://www.microshift.biz/pviewitem1.asp?sn=791&area=51&cat=184#
>
> Now it's only funny to me or to others who might work in my field -
> but I used to help build the centos OS and the idea of having a centos
> derailler by microshift amuses me to no end.
>
> other than that it's pretty good looking.
>
> anyone actually used any of these yet?
> -sv

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