subject:"Re\: \[RBW\] Re\: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg\?"

2018-07-25 Thread 'Eamon Nordquist' via RBW Owners Bunch

It honestly wasn't intended as the kind of thing that requires thick skin,
and I'll be careful not to say things that do. Sorry!

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 9:40 PM, masmojo  wrote:

> Grant, Mr. Masmojo has very thick skin; pick all you want.
> I agree with everything you  said there pretty much.
> It's just that these things are not necessarily cast in stone. I've
> personally seen carbon fiber bars & seat posts fail,  BUT there's so many
> variables involved really, because at the other end of the spectrum I've
> seen jaw dropping videos of CF frames absorbing stresses that would easily
> break any aluminum or steel frame. They are advancing frame building
> techniques all the time and conceivably they could find the solution to the
> weight Vs. durability conundrum.
> I am  not particularly interested in Carbon Fiber, I wouldn't go out of my
> way to get it, but more & more it's almost unavoidable. I don't worry too
> much about the little I have, because it's pretty heavy duty Cycle Cross
> stuff, but at some point I think it'll need replacing; then what? I  don't
> know? Titanium?
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-25 Thread Joe Bernard

Masmojo, the trick - as illuminated in the article in the CF thread - is to 
find frames and parts built to a survivable standard to the way real bicycles 
are really ridden, dropped and crashed. Does Calfee do this? Probably, buy a 
Calfee, I would. Do the mass manufacturers? NOPE. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-25 Thread masmojo

Grant, Mr. Masmojo has very thick skin; pick all you want.
I agree with everything you  said there pretty much.
It's just that these things are not necessarily cast in stone. I've personally 
seen carbon fiber bars & seat posts fail,  BUT there's so many variables 
involved really, because at the other end of the spectrum I've seen jaw 
dropping videos of CF frames absorbing stresses that would easily break any 
aluminum or steel frame. They are advancing frame building techniques all the 
time and conceivably they could find the solution to the weight Vs. durability 
conundrum.
I am  not particularly interested in Carbon Fiber, I wouldn't go out of my way 
to get it, but more & more it's almost unavoidable. I don't worry too much 
about the little I have, because it's pretty heavy duty Cycle Cross stuff, but 
at some point I think it'll need replacing; then what? I  don't know? Titanium?

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-25 Thread ascpgh

Like this: https://youtu.be/6QBRjp9-uJg ?

No thanks. Might work, might not. When it lets go is not science, just 
fate. 

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 2:43:06 PM UTC-4, Ryan M. wrote:
>
> I've seen a friend at a local mountain bike race break a carbon handlebar 
> while in a full sprint. It wasn't pretty. 
>
> I'm totally on board with a steel mtb with a nice steel fork, good 
> geometry, and just a rideable trail bike that I can have until I pass from 
> this world. 
>
> On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 1:31:59 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> I'll accept CF frames even if I don't have a particular taste for them. I 
>> still think carbon forks/steerers are madness. 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

Hite Rites are kind of awesome low tech wonders. Yeah, modern droppers have 
more functionality, but Hite Rites work better than I bet a lot of people would 
expect.

Eamon
Seattle

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-25 Thread ascpgh

"Change" simply doesn't cut it. Not worth wasting the time and effort to 
align. "Improvement" is a different animal, assessed individually and 
offers a clear step forward for adopters. 

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 12:26:59 PM UTC-4, masmojo wrote:
>
> I certainly don't endorse change for the sake of change, but if something 
> works,  it's better or solves a problem; I'll embrace it eventually, maybe 
> begrudgingly, but I will & my enthusiasm & conviction will grow from there. 
> I guess about the time I turned 50, I reaffirmed my conviction to keep my 
> mind open & question any preferences or prejudices I might have. 
> Didn't like Carbon fiber,  but as these things go, most road bikes these 
> days have Carbon Fiber forks; so it was kind of forced on me. (I also got 
> carbon fiber cranks & handlebars in the deal) Well, guess what? They work 
> fine, better than fine really. Will, I make a point  of buying CF in the 
> future? Hmm,  I doubt it, but my resistance has been weakened. 
> Just sayin, there's a reason for everything.

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

it may be. you've used a HiteRite?

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 5:36 PM, Belopsky  wrote:

> a good dropper is better.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-25 Thread Belopsky

a good dropper is better.

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-25 Thread iamkeith

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 5:10:40 PM UTC-6, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> Why wouldn't a dropper post work on a mixte frame? 
>
> Philip 
> Santa Rosa, CA
>

By nature, a dropper post needs a fair amount of extension above the top of 
the seat tube in order to function. Grant said there would be tons of 
standover clearance on the new bike, but I guess we don't really know what 
that means.  If it was/is achieved by the "normal" mountain bike means of 
radically-sloped top tube, short seat tube and lots of seatpost extension, 
then a dropper would work.  But it seems like most of the Rivendell mixtes  
I've seen (true mixtes with both mid- and seat- stays) have seat tubes that 
are sized comparable to a road bike and, as a result, have very little 
exposed seatpost in practice.  If anything (thinking of Grant's own 
Cheviott) people often choose to size up on the frame, and then have even 
less than normal seatpost extension.

Grant's right though.  Hite Rite was actually the "first," and I'm glad to 
know those are still available!

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

You can still get Hite-Rites to fit 26.6 to 27.2 frames. $45 or so, Tommy
Breeze (Joe's son) sells them--I think on eBay.

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Philip Williamson <
philip.william...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Why wouldn't a dropper post work on a mixte frame?
>
> Philip
> Santa Rosa, CA
>
> On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 5:52:45 PM UTC-7, iamkeith wrote:
>>
>> ( not that a dropper post would be a viable option on this if it indeed
>> goes mixte, so you're safe.  I was really just wondering what you meant.)
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-25 Thread Philip Williamson

Why wouldn't a dropper post work on a mixte frame? 

Philip 
Santa Rosa, CA

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 5:52:45 PM UTC-7, iamkeith wrote:
>
> ( not that a dropper post would be a viable option on this if it indeed 
> goes mixte, so you're safe.  I was really just wondering what you meant.)

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-25 Thread Philip Williamson

I wouldn't spec a 27.2 post if I had a fatter option available. 
Thanks for the link - I see the GravityDropper comes in 27.0, which would 
fit my Bontrager Allroad. Kind of cool. I read that they have play at the 
saddle, though, which would be a non-starter for me. 


Philip 
Santa Rosa, CA 

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 5:48:23 PM UTC-7, iamkeith wrote:
>
> Philip, what constitutes a "real" dropper post?  The original is still 
> going strong, is made in the USA in my neck of the woods, still offers real 
> customer service, and is still available in 27.2.  
>
> http://gravitydropper.com
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-25 Thread Joe Bernard

You're the brave one, Christopher 

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-25 Thread Christopher Murray

I’m going to go wy out on a limb here and guess this bike will be fabulous. 
;)

Chris

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-25 Thread Ryan M.

I've seen a friend at a local mountain bike race break a carbon handlebar 
while in a full sprint. It wasn't pretty. 

I'm totally on board with a steel mtb with a nice steel fork, good 
geometry, and just a rideable trail bike that I can have until I pass from 
this world. 

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 1:31:59 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:

> I'll accept CF frames even if I don't have a particular taste for them. I 
> still think carbon forks/steerers are madness. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-25 Thread Joe Bernard

I'll accept CF frames even if I don't have a particular taste for them. I still 
think carbon forks/steerers are madness. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

aside from whatever real or imagined benefits there are to riders, the
benefits of carbon and threadless to manufacturers are real and as concrete
as concrete. Threadless forks eliminate a HUGE ongoing hassle and storage
problem of stocking replacements for different sized frames. The fact that
it helps manufacturers is a GOOD thing, but *that* is why they were so
wholly instantly adopted. Going to carbon fiber piggybacked on that by
offering a perceived cool-factor fork that flaunted its material and saved
bike manufacturers from having to stock color-matches for their bikes every
year. A third benefit to manufacturers is that forks are a PITA to make.
There isn't a frame builder in the world who likes making forks (I have not
surveyed them all, I've just never heard of one, and the fact that so many
offer carbon forks as standard supports this "theory.")  Forks are
difficult and intolerant of even slight goofs. If a frame is slightly out
of alignment, you'll never know by casual observation (need measuring
tools) and it probably won't matter in the ride. (Our frames are aligned
during the process of building and checked at the end, and I've watched
them do it.)  It depends where it's out of alignment, but if you think most
of the bikes in the world are perfectly aligned, o my.   But when a fork is
out of alignment, it's way more visually obvious, because the tire gap is
different.
Any one of the points I'm trying to make--I'm making them quickly and
without any nuance or noting other important details in the discussion--but
they're honestly fundamentally true. Our Taiwan frame builders farm out the
forks. Artisinal custom builders for the most part prefer to (I know there
are exceptions).
It's easy-er for me here at RIvendell with our relatively low volume to
stock crash replacement forks forks, but even when we order two extra per
size per color, as models and colors change, it doesn't take too many years
to accumulate 200 forks. At Bstone, we had --- thousands? At least a
thousand. We tossed them when we closed. I think one of the guys gathered
up some MB forks and maybe a few RBs, but basically, they were vamooshed.
There's no market for a Regulus brown fork for a 23-inch frame, or any of
the others.

I'm not picking on masmojo. He (or she?) is right--that stuff can work
fine. It's when it doesn't that things get scary, and when you consider
that carbon doesn't age well, there's still a good reason to avoid it.

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 9:26 AM, masmojo  wrote:

> I certainly don't endorse change for the sake of change, but if something
> works,  it's better or solves a problem; I'll embrace it eventually, maybe
> begrudgingly, but I will & my enthusiasm & conviction will grow from there.
> I guess about the time I turned 50, I reaffirmed my conviction to keep my
> mind open & question any preferences or prejudices I might have.
> Didn't like Carbon fiber,  but as these things go, most road bikes these
> days have Carbon Fiber forks; so it was kind of forced on me. (I also got
> carbon fiber cranks & handlebars in the deal) Well, guess what? They work
> fine, better than fine really. Will, I make a point  of buying CF in the
> future? Hmm,  I doubt it, but my resistance has been weakened.
> Just sayin, there's a reason for everything.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-25 Thread masmojo

I certainly don't endorse change for the sake of change, but if something 
works,  it's better or solves a problem; I'll embrace it eventually, maybe 
begrudgingly, but I will & my enthusiasm & conviction will grow from there.
I guess about the time I turned 50, I reaffirmed my conviction to keep my mind 
open & question any preferences or prejudices I might have. 
Didn't like Carbon fiber,  but as these things go, most road bikes these days 
have Carbon Fiber forks; so it was kind of forced on me. (I also got carbon 
fiber cranks & handlebars in the deal) Well, guess what? They work fine, 
better than fine really. Will, I make a point  of buying CF in the future? 
Hmm,  I doubt it, but my resistance has been weakened. 
Just sayin, there's a reason for everything.

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch

Dang, you took the words right outta my mouth, bro! I was just getting 
ready to say exactly this. How weird is that?!!

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 8:31:34 PM UTC-4, Garth wrote:If Grant/Riv 
catered to the constantly changing whim of every customer .he would 
please no more/no less than as-is today, but Grant I suspect, would never 
be pleased, so likely no more Rivendell at all.   Funny, but the present 
tense, is the only "time" there is. Try speaking as was or will be  and 
notice the present-tense/presence is inescapable. Now is now, no  matter 
what a clock or calendar of Sun may be assumed/presumed as meaning. That 
"meaning" under the light of Truth, cannnot be found, it has none. Now , 
present tense, simply is, infinitum .  The point of this is is there is no 
such thing as new or old anything, A present that is not-present, never 
was, never will be. The One present is the only One present  So in 
regards to "bike technology/parts" and "age/availability" . I need not 
say more.  No, all the so-assumed "logic" in the world cannot figure this 
utter simplicity out, which is wonderfully a-maze-ing    Smile !

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

We've been doing threadless for 25 years?! Holy crap I'm old. 

Btw, the adjuster on threadless is threaded. Clipless pedals have clips. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread Grant Petersen

A century of threaded headsets and 25 years of threadless suggest they both
work fine. The rest is preference and defense.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 2:05 PM, Virgil Staphbeard 
wrote:

> Also, the addition of a decaleur or cable hanger in the stack adds to the
> loosening potential ,provided they don't have their own locking potential
> (i.e. Paul Funky Monkey or Mark Guglielmana decaleur). The locknut fails
> to do its job if there is potentially rotating part introduced between
> them.
>
> On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 11:05:06 AM UTC-4, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>>
>> The "secret" to properly snugging a threaded headset is to use two
>> wrenches (in the case of a non-Rinko style). The spanner kind goes on the
>> cup flats, and it's really helpful to use the Stein-type (now also made by
>> Park) that's chunky and grabs around about 230 degrees and cannot slip. You
>> lightly overtighten the cup, then countersqueeze the keyed washer with
>> opposing forces on both wrenches. Let me say that if I didn't know exactly
>> what all these words meant, it would seem like a hassle, but it is super
>> easy. Like anything on a bike or in life, it takes a little practice to
>> develop the skill, but so does every mechanical adjustment on your bike.
>> Once you have it down, it takes roughly 20 seconds, maximum. The actually
>> tightening, 4-5 seconds.
>> The PROBLEM is that -- kind of like learning to patch inner tubes or
>> remove and reinstall the rear wheel when all you ride is Schwalbe tires --
>> there's not a lot of opportunity to learn.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 5:59 AM, hugh flynn  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:37 PM masmojo  wrote:
>>>

 ...
 Riv, people don't have problems with headsets coming loose!? Wow, I
 wonder what their secret is, I've never owned a bike with a quill stem that
 didn't  eventually need to be tightened. (& I've tried many techniques to
 tighten them so they don't come loose). On the other hand I've never had a
 threadless come loose.
>>>
>>>
>>> Doubt it's Riv specific but in 40+ years and many 1,000's of miles of
>>> cycling with both threadless and threaded headsets, I've never had a
>>> problem with either and have yet to perform a field adjustment either on or
>>> off road.
>>>
>>> Hugh "not a big problem for me" Flynn
>>> Newburyport, MA
>>>
 --
>>> Hugh Flynn
>>> Newburyport, MA
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread 'Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch

Steve, I am 62 years old and have been riding for thirty years, using my 
Atlantis for daily transportation since 1999. I have a good understanding of 
what I need in a bike. My entire bike packing load is less than fifteen pounds. 
It has to be, because I tour up in the Oregon Cascades on single track and 
double track, once I climb the twenty miles and a climb few thousand feet to 
get there.  Right now, I am having a hard time packing my bike for a three day 
tour, because it’s so damn hot and the wild land fire smoke can roll in, with a 
change in the wind. Anywhoo, yes the weight difference is important. Only by 
sweating over every gram, and always choosing the lighter way, have I been able 
to get my load light. It took twenty years of refining my touring load. When I 
first started, I had a forty to fifty pounds worth of crap on my bike and 
climbing was not fun, and kept me on paved roads. I make all my own bike 
packing bags because I enjoy trying to design something new, which is really 
hard in the cycling world. 
I live with the Atlantis’s weight, because the bike is perfect for my severely 
battered body (12 surgeries, knees, back, wrists, elbow).  It fits.  Like an 
old pair of broken in boots. I have two carbon bikes, a S-works Crux (insanely 
light and quite absorbent for a rigid) and an Ibis Mojo 3 with 2.5” tires. I 
could bikepack on either one, but I never have. They have no soul, and they 
would hamper my connection with Nature. Sounds weird, but I guess a comparison 
would be going for a hike in moccasins versus bright yellow, foam hiking shoes 
with pink lightening bolts on the side.  There is a better connection to the 
earth with the moccasins. Same with steel frames. For the Earth, of the Earth 
and it will only oxidize into the dirt. Since I am a Dirt Dancer, it feels 
proper... 
Rivendell, in name, attitude and products is all about being a nature bike deep 
down, and Dammit, I want a fully lugged plus bike named after something that 
lives in the woods. (“Mr. Natural”, hmmm... a Mr. Crumb co branded bike?)
Back to packing my bike. I can’t decide whether or not to carry my Swiss 
Army knife now. 
Treehugger
Clayton
DirtDance 

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread Doug Hansford

I begrudgingly agree. The Bosco bars put loads of torque on the stem connection 
 to the point that I would worry about using them with a quill stem on single 
track. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 24, 2018, at 9:10 PM, Ryan Merrill  wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I personally think a quill stem is a bad idea for an MTB.
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread Ryan Merrill

Yeah, I personally think a quill stem is a bad idea for an MTB.

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread iamkeith

Drw, I hear you and I've been fighting the urge to be part of keeping this 
thread and the speculation alive, but I can't seem to help myself.  I think the 
rim issue is now resolved by grant's "2.8, not 3.0" comment.  The Cliffhanger 
might not be optimum, but it would certainly work.  And if or when it went 
away, somebody else would step up and make a replacement.  (I've learned this 
lesson the hard way, through years of needless hoarding instinct based on 
similar worries.)

I'm not in the disc camp in any way shape or form, but I'm now actually more 
perplexed by the "presumably V-brakes" comment.  Cantis are easy to comprehend, 
but V-brakes would need some awfully long arms to clear a tire that big.  Don't 
make me regret bringing this up though..

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread iamkeith

( not that a dropper post would be a viable option on this if it indeed goes 
mixte, so you're safe.  I was really just wondering what you meant.)

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread Drw

For me, this comes down to rim availability. If a case can be made for a long 
term available rim brake rim for 2.8in tires, I’ll probably bite and replace 
the Toyo Atlantis that lives up near Yosemite. I don’t really need or care 
about disc brakes in the dryness of CA, but I don’t want to be unable to buy a 
decent wheel set in 10 years for a bike either. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

I mean, I would like to see this when you receive it.

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 8:19:26 PM UTC-4, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> As long as you don't go with a 31.6 seat tube to run a real dropper post. 
> Then I'll feel dumb for ordering my new Fitz (rigid fork, rim brakes, 60mm 
> tires, dropper post). 
>
> Philip
> Santa Rosa, CA 
>
> On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 2:15:18 PM UTC-7, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>>
>> We're thinking of stuff about price. To be CLEM-like would mean all TIG, 
>> and that's--obviously--easier and still strong and all, but the first run 
>> will be mostly lug + fillet. We're considering some all- tig (minus seat 
>> lug) and may go half like that. Not sure..
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:10 AM, Doug Hansford  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Will the price be Clem like? I know, I know you said that’s all you have 
>>> to say about that for now, channeling my Gump. But, I had to ask...
>>> Doug from low humidity pleasant day in Athens, GA. Won’t get used to it
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> > On Jul 23, 2018, at 2:05 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>> > 
>>> > Yeah, I'm gonna need this bike. I don't think I ever emailed anyone at 
>>> Riv about it, but I love the HHH fork and was hoping it would show up on a 
>>> not-tandem eventually. Take my money!
>>> > 
>>> > Joe Bernard
>>> > Novato CA. 
>>> > 
>>> > -- 
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>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread iamkeith

Philip, what constitutes a "real" dropper post?  The original is still going 
strong, is made in the USA in my neck of the woods, still offers real customer 
service, and is still available in 27.2.  

http://gravitydropper.com

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread masmojo

Proofs in the pudding as they say.
I wasn't particularly predisposed to liking either threadless stems or disc 
brakes, but after living with both for 10+ years I am more or less forced to 
concede to their superiority. 
A quill stem IS more esthetically pleasing, I don't think anyone will argue 
otherwise, but functionally the threadless just plain works. The "star nut" 
used to freak me out, but it's proven a reliable design. 
As far as disc brakes go, theoretically a rim brake is better & it is adequate 
the majority of the time, but day in, day out the disc just gets it done.
One point that these discussions about brakes typically fail to address is that 
a rim brake can never equal a disc brake, because the brake pad has to juggle 
two different agendas; first creating enough friction to grip & stop the 
rim/wheel, but not enough to excessively wear the rim. On the other hand a disc 
brake can be made of a highly effective friction material, because both the pad 
& the disc are designed to wear out.
I appreciate the aesthetics of a beautiful bike, but when it comes to 
components I'm inclined to go with proven things that work well. If I  have to 
compromise, one to get the other. Well, I guess OK, but why?

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

The smiley faces are what really put it over the plate 

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread Garth

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 6:27:54 PM UTC-4, Belopsky wrote:
> What im reading is people will make sacrifices but why ? For the price that 
> this will be just get a custom jeez but then it's not a riv

Igor, in cycling as in baseball ,  there's no crying 

If Grant/Riv catered to the constantly changing whim of every customer .he 
would please no more/no less than as-is today, but Grant I suspect, would never 
be pleased, so likely no more Rivendell at all.  

Funny, but the present tense, is the only "time" there is. Try speaking as was 
or will be  and notice the present-tense/presence is inescapable. Now is 
now, no  matter what a clock or calendar of Sun may be assumed/presumed as 
meaning. That "meaning" under the light of Truth, cannnot be found, it has 
none. Now , present tense, simply is, infinitum .  The point of this is is 
there is no such thing as new or old anything, A present that is not-present, 
never was, never will be. The One present is the only One present 

So in regards to "bike technology/parts" and "age/availability" . I need 
not say more.  No, all the so-assumed "logic" in the world cannot figure this 
utter simplicity out, which is wonderfully a-maze-ing    

Smile !

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread Philip Williamson

As long as you don't go with a 31.6 seat tube to run a real dropper post. 
Then I'll feel dumb for ordering my new Fitz (rigid fork, rim brakes, 60mm 
tires, dropper post). 

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA 

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 2:15:18 PM UTC-7, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>
> We're thinking of stuff about price. To be CLEM-like would mean all TIG, 
> and that's--obviously--easier and still strong and all, but the first run 
> will be mostly lug + fillet. We're considering some all- tig (minus seat 
> lug) and may go half like that. Not sure..
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:10 AM, Doug Hansford  > wrote:
>
>> Will the price be Clem like? I know, I know you said that’s all you have 
>> to say about that for now, channeling my Gump. But, I had to ask...
>> Doug from low humidity pleasant day in Athens, GA. Won’t get used to it
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Jul 23, 2018, at 2:05 PM, Joe Bernard > > wrote:
>> > 
>> > Yeah, I'm gonna need this bike. I don't think I ever emailed anyone at 
>> Riv about it, but I love the HHH fork and was hoping it would show up on a 
>> not-tandem eventually. Take my money!
>> > 
>> > Joe Bernard
>> > Novato CA. 
>> > 
>> > -- 
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>

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

Sure, but threadless setups flex less on "real mountain bikes" with massive 
amounts of flex built into their forks and rear triangles, so there ya go! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

maybe or maybe not.

quill stems flex for a real mountain bike. sorry not sorry.

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

"What im reading is people will make sacrifices but why ? For the price that 
this will be just get a custom jeez but then it's not a riv"

You be trollin' bro. At this point we have no idea what the price will be, so 
this comment contains a bushel of silliness. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread Ginz

I think the fair comparison is bullmoose vs threadless and I’d bet that’s a 
significant weight difference. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

On 07/24/2018 06:25 PM, 'Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:

Stems. Threadless is a lighter system by quite a bit. Two things it lacks is
adjustability and comfort. My long quill stem and the one inch steerer flex
quite comfortably. I think it is one of the secrets to the Atlantis’s
adoration. It is far easier to raise and lower your handlebars too, but that
matters when? Just once usually. Not really an issue.

Not really true, especially if you keep the bike for a long time. Bodies
change, and the three or four inches of bar drop that were fine when you
were in your late 40s may be impossible to live with by the time you're
60. I'm speaking here from personal experience. And consider the
context for a minute: this is the RBW and we're not talking about
disposable bikes here. The bike I rode last, before the current round
of endless rain began again, was made 55 years ago. Rivendells are made
as well as Jack Taylors were, and should last as well.

Even changing your handlebar may end up requiring you to raise the bar a
bot -- not a big problem, of course, unless you're maxed out already.
But most of the time the bike already comes with an upsloping stem and
the shops cut the steerer to height leaving no extra room for further
upward movement. Oops.

Aesthetically I think quill wins.
I was hoping for a lugged plus frame but fillet sounds pretty cool too, like
the old high end Ritchey and Fisher frames from back in the day.
I’d like a thread-less stem as this could be my next bike packing bike and
‘car’ ( I bought a Crust LD stem to build a bike around ) and it’s a lighter
system.

Does the difference in weight between a quill stem and a threadless stem
matter with a bike-packing bike? Bike packing is, after all, load
carrying. You really think you're going to notice a few ounces weight
difference on a bike like this?

Image result for bikepacking

Just how much weight difference do you think we're talking about,
anyway? As much as a Swiss Army knife? I doubt it.

I’d like discs but am fine with rim brakes. Kind of. They suck in the winter in the ice and snow and snow plow grit eats up rims. Discs are quicker, cheaper and easier to replace. I hope that Paul’s V-brakes clear a 2.8’ tire. Looking at my bike with 2.35’ tires, I’m not sure...

I have more chainring clearance over rocks and drops since I changed my
transmission over to SRAM XX1 on my Atlantis, so I don’t think the new bike is
worth me swapping to at this point. Ground clearance was my only real issue
with the single track capability of the Atlantis.
The new bike isn’t lugged.  Sob..sob...
I could change my mind in a minute if it has cool colors and a stellar name...

Clayton
#DirtDanceDesigns

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

What im reading is people will make sacrifices but why ? For the price that 
this will be just get a custom jeez but then it's not a riv

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread 'Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch

Stems. Threadless is a lighter system by quite a bit. Two things it lacks is 
adjustability and comfort. My long quill stem and the one inch steerer flex 
quite comfortably. I think it is one of the secrets to the Atlantis’s 
adoration. It is far easier to raise and lower your handlebars too, but that 
matters when? Just once usually. Not really an issue. Aesthetically I think 
quill wins. 
I was hoping for a lugged plus frame but fillet sounds pretty cool too, like 
the old high end Ritchey and Fisher frames from back in the day.  
I’d like a thread-less stem as this could be my next bike packing bike and 
‘car’ ( I bought a Crust LD stem to build a bike around ) and it’s a lighter 
system.  
I’d like discs but am fine with rim brakes. Kind of. They suck in the winter in 
the ice and snow and snow plow grit eats up rims. Discs are quicker, cheaper 
and easier to replace.   I hope that Paul’s V-brakes clear a 2.8’ tire. Looking 
at my bike with 2.35’ tires, I’m not sure...
I have more chainring clearance over rocks and drops since I changed my 
transmission over to SRAM XX1 on my Atlantis, so I don’t think the new bike is 
worth me swapping to at this point. Ground clearance was my only real issue 
with the single track capability of the Atlantis. 
The new bike isn’t lugged.  Sob..sob...
I could change my mind in a minute if it has cool colors and a stellar name...

Clayton 
#DirtDanceDesigns

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread Virgil Staphbeard

Also, the addition of a decaleur or cable hanger in the stack adds to the 
loosening potential ,provided they don't have their own locking potential 
(i.e. Paul Funky Monkey or Mark Guglielmana decaleur). The locknut fails to 
do its job if there is potentially rotating part introduced between them. 

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 11:05:06 AM UTC-4, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>
> The "secret" to properly snugging a threaded headset is to use two 
> wrenches (in the case of a non-Rinko style). The spanner kind goes on the 
> cup flats, and it's really helpful to use the Stein-type (now also made by 
> Park) that's chunky and grabs around about 230 degrees and cannot slip. You 
> lightly overtighten the cup, then countersqueeze the keyed washer with 
> opposing forces on both wrenches. Let me say that if I didn't know exactly 
> what all these words meant, it would seem like a hassle, but it is super 
> easy. Like anything on a bike or in life, it takes a little practice to 
> develop the skill, but so does every mechanical adjustment on your bike. 
> Once you have it down, it takes roughly 20 seconds, maximum. The actually 
> tightening, 4-5 seconds. 
> The PROBLEM is that -- kind of like learning to patch inner tubes or 
> remove and reinstall the rear wheel when all you ride is Schwalbe tires -- 
> there's not a lot of opportunity to learn.
>
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 5:59 AM, hugh flynn  > wrote:
>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:37 PM masmojo > > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> ...
>>> Riv, people don't have problems with headsets coming loose!? Wow, I 
>>> wonder what their secret is, I've never owned a bike with a quill stem that 
>>> didn't  eventually need to be tightened. (& I've tried many techniques to 
>>> tighten them so they don't come loose). On the other hand I've never had a 
>>> threadless come loose.
>>
>>
>> Doubt it's Riv specific but in 40+ years and many 1,000's of miles of 
>> cycling with both threadless and threaded headsets, I've never had a 
>> problem with either and have yet to perform a field adjustment either on or 
>> off road.
>>
>> Hugh "not a big problem for me" Flynn
>> Newburyport, MA
>>
>>> -- 
>> Hugh Flynn
>> Newburyport, MA
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

I'd say that threadless needs an allen key or two, unless you have a stem 
with torx.

easier than threaded.

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

Few if any have even the slightest clue about how to adjust cable 
tension.  Most have no difficulty removing and replacing wheels or 
changing tires.



On 07/24/2018 03:58 PM, Joe Bernard wrote:

Those owners probably aren't fiddling with other parts of their bikes, either. 
I have a friend with several bikes who hasn't the first clue about working on 
them, it's just not her thing.



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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread masmojo

It is completely easy & I thouught to mention that about about the tools after 
my last post, but it's important to note. One or two allen keys & you're set. 
Rather than 3 lbs of spanners.

I was just thinking it would be funny to call it the Wildcat Rock Machine! LOL

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

Those owners probably aren't fiddling with other parts of their bikes, either. 
I have a friend with several bikes who hasn't the first clue about working on 
them, it's just not her thing.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

Thanks for the summary.  You do make it sound simple.  Makes me wonder 
why none of the owners who have them have ever had any idea how to go 
about adjusting one.

On 07/24/2018 03:07 PM, Jeremy Till wrote:

Hey Steve, it's really simple to adjust a threadless headset:

1. Loosen clamping bolts on the stem.
2. Tighten the bolt in the top cap just enough that no play can be 
discerned via the usual headset adjustment check (locking front brake, 
rocking the bike against the fork).  If the headset is too tight, 
loosen until there is play and re-tighten appropriately.

3. Check that stem is aligned with front wheel
4. Tighten clamping bolts on the stem.

I then usually double check that the headset is rotating freely by 
lifting the bike with the rear end elevated and making sure the fork 
returns to center when turned to either side, but i would do that for 
either a threaded or threadless headset.

In general I wouldn't say that either threaded or threadless headsets 
are inherently easier or harder to understand or adjust; it's just a 
matter of educating yourself on the procedures either way.

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 10:24:15 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:

Actually, a threaded headset's adjustment is quite easy to
understand.
It's obvious, really: there are nuts that are clearly meant to be
tightened or loosened.  Threadless is another story: there's no
visible
means of support, other than maybe mash down hard on the stem and
then
clamp it down, but that hardly seems to make any sense, and if
that was
how it was supposed to work it couldn't possibly be very accurate.

But my point is simply that for all the talk about how simple it is,
I've yet to find anybody on a ride who knew how to adjust one even
though they all had them and they all had the tools.  (And no, I
have no
idea how to do it.  I can do a fair job with a threaded headset,
though.)

And I should add, the only bike I ever had that had an issue with the
threaded headset loosening turned out to be a problem with the
washers
not being thick enough.  Once that was fixed, no further
problems.  Of
course I don't ride MTB.

On 07/24/2018 12:37 PM, masmojo wrote:
> Grant, yes that's the technique I use (learned working in a bike
shop 37 years ago), but no matter, eventually they come loose.
Steel headsets tend to stay in place better, fewer problems with
loosening, but they're heavy. Aluminum on the other hand comes
loose no matter. I discover mine is loose typically on washboard
surfaces when I'm miles from home.
>
> Steve, thing is people who can't adjust a threadless headset are
going to have a hard time wrapping their head around a threaded
headset/quill stem as well.

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Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread Ryan M.

"In general I wouldn't say that either threaded or threadless headsets are 
inherently easier or harder to understand or adjust; it's just a matter of 
educating yourself on the procedures either way."

I agree and would add that the great thing about threadless is that you are 
generally carrying the tool needed to adjust the entire system with you on 
a ride where a threaded headset you need two rather large wrenches...and 
I'd be surprised if anybody carries them while riding. Either way, set it 
up and adjust it right once and you generally don't have to screw around 
with it on the road/trail (unless you are wrenching the bars back and forth 
during a rather jarring single track ride and have the quill slip and 
turn...happened to me once). 


I have found the beauty of threaded to be not only the aesthetics, which I 
prefer, but it's way easier to adjust stem height. 


On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 2:07:40 PM UTC-5, Jeremy Till wrote:

> Hey Steve, it's really simple to adjust a threadless headset: 
>
> 1. Loosen clamping bolts on the stem.  
> 2. Tighten the bolt in the top cap just enough that no play can be 
> discerned via the usual headset adjustment check (locking front brake, 
> rocking the bike against the fork).  If the headset is too tight, loosen 
> until there is play and re-tighten appropriately.  
> 3. Check that stem is aligned with front wheel
> 4. Tighten clamping bolts on the stem.  
>
> I then usually double check that the headset is rotating freely by lifting 
> the bike with the rear end elevated and making sure the fork returns to 
> center when turned to either side, but i would do that for either a 
> threaded or threadless headset.  
>
> In general I wouldn't say that either threaded or threadless headsets are 
> inherently easier or harder to understand or adjust; it's just a matter of 
> educating yourself on the procedures either way.
>
> On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 10:24:15 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>> Actually, a threaded headset's adjustment is quite easy to understand.  
>> It's obvious, really: there are nuts that are clearly meant to be 
>> tightened or loosened.  Threadless is another story: there's no visible 
>> means of support, other than maybe mash down hard on the stem and then 
>> clamp it down, but that hardly seems to make any sense, and if that was 
>> how it was supposed to work it couldn't possibly be very accurate. 
>>
>> But my point is simply that for all the talk about how simple it is, 
>> I've yet to find anybody on a ride who knew how to adjust one even 
>> though they all had them and they all had the tools.  (And no, I have no 
>> idea how to do it.  I can do a fair job with a threaded headset, though.) 
>>
>> And I should add, the only bike I ever had that had an issue with the 
>> threaded headset loosening turned out to be a problem with the washers 
>> not being thick enough.  Once that was fixed, no further problems.  Of 
>> course I don't ride MTB. 
>>
>>
>> On 07/24/2018 12:37 PM, masmojo wrote: 
>> > Grant, yes that's the technique I use (learned working in a bike shop 
>> 37 years ago), but no matter, eventually they come loose. Steel headsets 
>> tend to stay in place better, fewer problems with loosening, but they're 
>> heavy. Aluminum on the other hand comes loose no matter. I discover mine is 
>> loose typically on washboard surfaces when I'm miles from home. 
>> > 
>> > Steve, thing is people who can't adjust a threadless headset are going 
>> to have a hard time wrapping their head around a threaded headset/quill 
>> stem as well. 
>> > 
>>
>> -- 
>> Steve Palincsar 
>> Alexandria, Virginia 
>> USA 
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread Jeremy Till

Hey Steve, it's really simple to adjust a threadless headset: 

1. Loosen clamping bolts on the stem.  
2. Tighten the bolt in the top cap just enough that no play can be 
discerned via the usual headset adjustment check (locking front brake, 
rocking the bike against the fork).  If the headset is too tight, loosen 
until there is play and re-tighten appropriately.  
3. Check that stem is aligned with front wheel
4. Tighten clamping bolts on the stem.  

I then usually double check that the headset is rotating freely by lifting 
the bike with the rear end elevated and making sure the fork returns to 
center when turned to either side, but i would do that for either a 
threaded or threadless headset.  

In general I wouldn't say that either threaded or threadless headsets are 
inherently easier or harder to understand or adjust; it's just a matter of 
educating yourself on the procedures either way.

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 10:24:15 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> Actually, a threaded headset's adjustment is quite easy to understand.  
> It's obvious, really: there are nuts that are clearly meant to be 
> tightened or loosened.  Threadless is another story: there's no visible 
> means of support, other than maybe mash down hard on the stem and then 
> clamp it down, but that hardly seems to make any sense, and if that was 
> how it was supposed to work it couldn't possibly be very accurate. 
>
> But my point is simply that for all the talk about how simple it is, 
> I've yet to find anybody on a ride who knew how to adjust one even 
> though they all had them and they all had the tools.  (And no, I have no 
> idea how to do it.  I can do a fair job with a threaded headset, though.) 
>
> And I should add, the only bike I ever had that had an issue with the 
> threaded headset loosening turned out to be a problem with the washers 
> not being thick enough.  Once that was fixed, no further problems.  Of 
> course I don't ride MTB. 
>
>
> On 07/24/2018 12:37 PM, masmojo wrote: 
> > Grant, yes that's the technique I use (learned working in a bike shop 37 
> years ago), but no matter, eventually they come loose. Steel headsets tend 
> to stay in place better, fewer problems with loosening, but they're heavy. 
> Aluminum on the other hand comes loose no matter. I discover mine is loose 
> typically on washboard surfaces when I'm miles from home. 
> > 
> > Steve, thing is people who can't adjust a threadless headset are going 
> to have a hard time wrapping their head around a threaded headset/quill 
> stem as well. 
> > 
>
> -- 
> Steve Palincsar 
> Alexandria, Virginia 
> USA 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?


And it wasn't even that ever-so-slippery "not".    Say it ain't so, Joe...


On 07/24/2018 01:40 PM, Joe Bernard wrote:

Of course I confused things (again) with a typo. I give up! Deleted!



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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

Of course I confused things (again) with a typo. I give up! Deleted!

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

A. My original answer related to early mountain bikers who had problems with 
threaded headsets loosening on singletrack, hence the invention of a different 
way to do it. B. Everybody should go to Park Tool and click on threaded headset 
adjustment. It's absurdly easy. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

Actually, a threaded headset's adjustment is quite easy to understand.  
It's obvious, really: there are nuts that are clearly meant to be 
tightened or loosened.  Threadless is another story: there's no visible 
means of support, other than maybe mash down hard on the stem and then 
clamp it down, but that hardly seems to make any sense, and if that was 
how it was supposed to work it couldn't possibly be very accurate.


But my point is simply that for all the talk about how simple it is, 
I've yet to find anybody on a ride who knew how to adjust one even 
though they all had them and they all had the tools.  (And no, I have no 
idea how to do it.  I can do a fair job with a threaded headset, though.)


And I should add, the only bike I ever had that had an issue with the 
threaded headset loosening turned out to be a problem with the washers 
not being thick enough.  Once that was fixed, no further problems.  Of 
course I don't ride MTB.



On 07/24/2018 12:37 PM, masmojo wrote:

Grant, yes that's the technique I use (learned working in a bike shop 37 years 
ago), but no matter, eventually they come loose. Steel headsets tend to stay in 
place better, fewer problems with loosening, but they're heavy. Aluminum on the 
other hand comes loose no matter. I discover mine is loose typically on 
washboard surfaces when I'm miles from home.

Steve, thing is people who can't adjust a threadless headset are going to have 
a hard time wrapping their head around a threaded headset/quill stem as well.



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Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread masmojo

Grant, yes that's the technique I use (learned working in a bike shop 37 years 
ago), but no matter, eventually they come loose. Steel headsets tend to stay in 
place better, fewer problems with loosening, but they're heavy. Aluminum on the 
other hand comes loose no matter. I discover mine is loose typically on 
washboard surfaces when I'm miles from home.

Steve, thing is people who can't adjust a threadless headset are going to have 
a hard time wrapping their head around a threaded headset/quill stem as well. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread Grant Petersen

The "secret" to properly snugging a threaded headset is to use two wrenches
(in the case of a non-Rinko style). The spanner kind goes on the cup flats,
and it's really helpful to use the Stein-type (now also made by Park)
that's chunky and grabs around about 230 degrees and cannot slip. You
lightly overtighten the cup, then countersqueeze the keyed washer with
opposing forces on both wrenches. Let me say that if I didn't know exactly
what all these words meant, it would seem like a hassle, but it is super
easy. Like anything on a bike or in life, it takes a little practice to
develop the skill, but so does every mechanical adjustment on your bike.
Once you have it down, it takes roughly 20 seconds, maximum. The actually
tightening, 4-5 seconds.
The PROBLEM is that -- kind of like learning to patch inner tubes or remove
and reinstall the rear wheel when all you ride is Schwalbe tires -- there's
not a lot of opportunity to learn.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 5:59 AM, hugh flynn  wrote:

>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:37 PM masmojo  wrote:
>
>>
>> ...
>> Riv, people don't have problems with headsets coming loose!? Wow, I
>> wonder what their secret is, I've never owned a bike with a quill stem that
>> didn't  eventually need to be tightened. (& I've tried many techniques to
>> tighten them so they don't come loose). On the other hand I've never had a
>> threadless come loose.
>
>
> Doubt it's Riv specific but in 40+ years and many 1,000's of miles of
> cycling with both threadless and threaded headsets, I've never had a
> problem with either and have yet to perform a field adjustment either on or
> off road.
>
> Hugh "not a big problem for me" Flynn
> Newburyport, MA
>
>> --
> Hugh Flynn
> Newburyport, MA
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-24 Thread hugh flynn

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:37 PM masmojo  wrote:

>
> ...
> Riv, people don't have problems with headsets coming loose!? Wow, I wonder
> what their secret is, I've never owned a bike with a quill stem that
> didn't  eventually need to be tightened. (& I've tried many techniques to
> tighten them so they don't come loose). On the other hand I've never had a
> threadless come loose.


Doubt it's Riv specific but in 40+ years and many 1,000's of miles of
cycling with both threadless and threaded headsets, I've never had a
problem with either and have yet to perform a field adjustment either on or
off road.

Hugh "not a big problem for me" Flynn
Newburyport, MA

> --
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Newburyport, MA

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-23 Thread Ray Varella

Nothing to add but I would likely commit to one if they fit me. 
2.8” is a pretty fat tire and fatter than what’s on my HHH and it’s super cushy 
with two people on it.  

Ray

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-23 Thread masmojo

Yeah, I've got an Ogre & it's hard to beat, but . . . . 

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

The Troll is a super nice bike---a FINE alternative to the now fully
explained one we're going to have, Bob. (And has discs!)

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 3:29 PM, Bob K.  wrote:

> The more I hear about this bike, the more I like it. I almost wish I
> didn’t love my Surly Troll so much, as this checks pretty much the same
> boxes, and I’ve already invested far, far too much money and time into a
> custom build (and two wheelsets) to about face. Oh, well. Psyched to be
> able to live vicariously through you all. Can’t wait to see prototypes and
> builds!
>
> Bob K. in Baltimore
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-23 Thread Bob K.

The more I hear about this bike, the more I like it. I almost wish I didn’t 
love my Surly Troll so much, as this checks pretty much the same boxes, and 
I’ve already invested far, far too much money and time into a custom build (and 
two wheelsets) to about face. Oh, well. Psyched to be able to live vicariously 
through you all. Can’t wait to see prototypes and builds!

Bob K. in Baltimore

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-23 Thread Ryan Merrill

2.8s is plenty wide, for sure. 

I already ride a rigid mtb and the widest tire I use on it is a 2.4...the 
rear is a 2.2. It's a perfect combination for my local trails and don't 
really think wider would add much. I love the fact it will be threadless 
and 73mm bb, which makes it compatible with modern cranks and stems. (I've 
also experienced the quill stem slips while mtb'ing, so I'm really excited 
that it will be threadless). 

I just now got back from a ride on one of my local mtb trails that has a 
lot of turns, decent amount of roots, some berms, pump-track like 
straights, lots of smiles, and not too many steep climbs and was thinking 
about how I could totally make a Riv mountain bike work well on the trail. 

I've decided I'm throwing my Santa Cruz up for sale partially because it is 
totally overkill for most of the riding I do and partially because I'm 
about 95% that I'm going to get this Riv mtb and the proceeds should fund a 
large portion of it. I've been saying for years I've wanted to do a Riv 
mountain mixte as a custom but never could get around to doing it and now 
it seems like y'all are going to be building something very similar to what 
I visualize in my future-bike-purchase area of my brain. Cool. 

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 12:40:57 PM UTC-5, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>
> OK...I know there's no killing a thread, at least not without 
> repercussions, but I'm not going to fee it anymore. At its best, developing 
> a bike is fun, and this bike is pure that for me and the others here. It 
> will NOT meet expectations, it'll barely miss the mark for most people 
> reading this, there WILL be groans of "if only they'd one ONE thing 
> differently...!"  Nobody is as independent as they'd like to be, or as 
> people think they are, and I'm on top of that list. My influences are 
> different, and although I don't FEEL old (at 64), having been doing bikes 
> for so long, and at Rivendell so long, has made me more stubborn than wise. 
> I don't want to build up great anticipation and enthusiam for a "secret" 
> bike, and yet I am so jazzed about it that I can't keep my trap fully shut. 
> That feels shitty and I wish I could undo, but there's no undoing. 
> I appreciate, and I can see straight that I and we-all-at RIV are lucky to 
> have such a great online group of supporters and cheer-squads. It's a big 
> positive in my life aside from any commercial value that may come from it. 
> The only thing is, right now I'm thinking I've screwed up and created a 
> weird hubub about a super simple bike. Here's how it'll be, and these are 
> the only details I'm going to reveal, but as you'll see, they're not barely 
> anything:
>
> fits to 2.8. NOT three. That's not an oversight, it's be design
> canti-posts for, presumably, V-brakes. no disc mount. I briefly considered 
> it, I was willing to bend there, but the internal opinion was NO, and I'm 
> so glad.
> great standover, but not a mixte. there's only one way to get that, so any 
> speculation as to how will be correct.
> 135 spacing
> Seat lug, but fillet and/or tig elsewhere.
> HHH-type fork
> Long chainstays
> Long wheelbase
> The Best Model Name of All Time for Any Commercial Product
> Two to four colors, three of which will be almost identical.
> Not a copy of anybody else's bike (to my knowledge)
> The coolest name
> Fun decaliteureaux! And expensive ones. About three dollars more per bike 
> per set, after the exhorbitant set-up fee. 
> No, they're not holograms. Really? U-thot-dat?
> You already know 73BB and OS threadless, and the reasons
> The name will scare people off. No, it's not a political or religious 
> name, although I have to admit I'd be strongly inclined to vote for any 
> candidate with this name, just hoping he or she was left-leaning.
>
> It will be all the mountain bike a non-racer needs for any terrain in the 
> world. You might have to walk a few things, but it'll glide over most...at 
> least, that's what I suspect, based on my experience with other bikes that 
> kind of do, too. But we all have different interpretations of "glide." 
> It'll be a nicely designed set of stairs, with steps just so, as opposed to 
> an elevator or even an escalator.
>
> It will be, overall, like a single version of the HHH, but with some 
> costlier details that don't make it better.
>
> G
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Belopsky  > wrote:
>
>> If this is a mountain bike then what are all the other mountain bi...
>>
>> OK I give up. Rivendell will Rivendell. Lets make more bikes that are 
>> already bikes we have. Like Crust right?
>>
>> ugh.
>>
>> At least someone is doing it
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-23 Thread Steve Palincsar

Regardless of the truth of either version of the comment, in my 
experience it's entirely irrelevant: although I've come upon riders in 
club rides with loose threadless headsets, I have yet to find one rider 
in any of those groups who had the first idea how to go about adjusting 
a threadless headset (other than taking the bike to a bike shop).



On 07/23/2018 05:26 PM, Joe Bernard wrote:

Hey Keith, I like the wrong version of my comment better! 



--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

Hey Keith, I like the wrong version of my comment better! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-23 Thread iamkeith


On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 1:53:42 PM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Oh man, I'M SORRY I ANSWERED THE HEADSET QUESTION 臘


For what it's worth, I misread your original answer, laughed out loud, and 
thought it was the best line ever.  My mind saw this:

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 2:12:33 PM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Threadless: Easier adjustment on the trail, conversely offset by being 
> *more* likely to go out of adjustment on the trail.

 
So I appreciated your post regardless of the intent.

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

We're thinking of stuff about price. To be CLEM-like would mean all TIG,
and that's--obviously--easier and still strong and all, but the first run
will be mostly lug + fillet. We're considering some all- tig (minus seat
lug) and may go half like that. Not sure..

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:10 AM, Doug Hansford 
wrote:

> Will the price be Clem like? I know, I know you said that’s all you have
> to say about that for now, channeling my Gump. But, I had to ask...
> Doug from low humidity pleasant day in Athens, GA. Won’t get used to it
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 23, 2018, at 2:05 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, I'm gonna need this bike. I don't think I ever emailed anyone at
> Riv about it, but I love the HHH fork and was hoping it would show up on a
> not-tandem eventually. Take my money!
> >
> > Joe Bernard
> > Novato CA.
> >
> > --
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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

Oh man, I'M SORRY I ANSWERED THE HEADSET QUESTION 臘

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-23 Thread masmojo

Well, it's nice for Grant to admit to stubbornness, certainly that's all the 
reason/excuse he needs.

Riv, people don't have problems with headsets coming loose!? Wow, I wonder what 
their secret is, I've never owned a bike with a quill stem that didn't  
eventually need to be tightened. (& I've tried many techniques to tighten them 
so they don't come loose). On the other hand I've never had a threadless come 
loose.
Despite, arguments on both sides Grants desire to keep things compatible with 
other things out there is the best reason, because in the bike industry 1" 
quill stems are NOT making a comeback. Sadly, the same can be said for non-disc 
brakes in the next few years.
But, that's OK

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-23 Thread 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch

Nice!!

Thanks for the info!!




On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 12:40:57 PM UTC-5, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>
> OK...I know there's no killing a thread, at least not without 
> repercussions, but I'm not going to fee it anymore. At its best, developing 
> a bike is fun, and this bike is pure that for me and the others here. It 
> will NOT meet expectations, it'll barely miss the mark for most people 
> reading this, there WILL be groans of "if only they'd one ONE thing 
> differently...!"  Nobody is as independent as they'd like to be, or as 
> people think they are, and I'm on top of that list. My influences are 
> different, and although I don't FEEL old (at 64), having been doing bikes 
> for so long, and at Rivendell so long, has made me more stubborn than wise. 
> I don't want to build up great anticipation and enthusiam for a "secret" 
> bike, and yet I am so jazzed about it that I can't keep my trap fully shut. 
> That feels shitty and I wish I could undo, but there's no undoing. 
> I appreciate, and I can see straight that I and we-all-at RIV are lucky to 
> have such a great online group of supporters and cheer-squads. It's a big 
> positive in my life aside from any commercial value that may come from it. 
> The only thing is, right now I'm thinking I've screwed up and created a 
> weird hubub about a super simple bike. Here's how it'll be, and these are 
> the only details I'm going to reveal, but as you'll see, they're not barely 
> anything:
>
> fits to 2.8. NOT three. That's not an oversight, it's be design
> canti-posts for, presumably, V-brakes. no disc mount. I briefly considered 
> it, I was willing to bend there, but the internal opinion was NO, and I'm 
> so glad.
> great standover, but not a mixte. there's only one way to get that, so any 
> speculation as to how will be correct.
> 135 spacing
> Seat lug, but fillet and/or tig elsewhere.
> HHH-type fork
> Long chainstays
> Long wheelbase
> The Best Model Name of All Time for Any Commercial Product
> Two to four colors, three of which will be almost identical.
> Not a copy of anybody else's bike (to my knowledge)
> The coolest name
> Fun decaliteureaux! And expensive ones. About three dollars more per bike 
> per set, after the exhorbitant set-up fee. 
> No, they're not holograms. Really? U-thot-dat?
> You already know 73BB and OS threadless, and the reasons
> The name will scare people off. No, it's not a political or religious 
> name, although I have to admit I'd be strongly inclined to vote for any 
> candidate with this name, just hoping he or she was left-leaning.
>
> It will be all the mountain bike a non-racer needs for any terrain in the 
> world. You might have to walk a few things, but it'll glide over most...at 
> least, that's what I suspect, based on my experience with other bikes that 
> kind of do, too. But we all have different interpretations of "glide." 
> It'll be a nicely designed set of stairs, with steps just so, as opposed to 
> an elevator or even an escalator.
>
> It will be, overall, like a single version of the HHH, but with some 
> costlier details that don't make it better.
>
> G
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Belopsky  > wrote:
>
>> If this is a mountain bike then what are all the other mountain bi...
>>
>> OK I give up. Rivendell will Rivendell. Lets make more bikes that are 
>> already bikes we have. Like Crust right?
>>
>> ugh.
>>
>> At least someone is doing it
>>
>> -- 
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>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-23 Thread Doug Hansford

Will the price be Clem like? I know, I know you said that’s all you have to say 
about that for now, channeling my Gump. But, I had to ask...
Doug from low humidity pleasant day in Athens, GA. Won’t get used to it

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 23, 2018, at 2:05 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I'm gonna need this bike. I don't think I ever emailed anyone at Riv 
> about it, but I love the HHH fork and was hoping it would show up on a 
> not-tandem eventually. Take my money!
> 
> Joe Bernard
> Novato CA. 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-23 Thread Drw

You had me at, “Two to four colors, three of which will be almost identical.”

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

Yeah, I'm gonna need this bike. I don't think I ever emailed anyone at Riv 
about it, but I love the HHH fork and was hoping it would show up on a 
not-tandem eventually. Take my money!

Joe Bernard
Novato CA. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-23 Thread Christopher Cote

One more futile plea for disc brakes from the wet, muddy, snowy, icy northeast 
here.

Chris

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

Bless you, Jeremy! Where were you 20 minutes ago?

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Jeremy Till  wrote:

> I think, respectfully, that maybe we should give this thread a rest, at
> least until further details of the bike are confirmed, as we're going in
> circles.  It was pointed out 6 pages ago that yes, the first gen Pugsleys
> had cantilever bosses and yes, Rivendell built one up with drop bars and
> cantilevers, so their commitment to rim brakes with the new MTB in no way
> prevents it from being a "plus" bike.
>
> In regards my preference for threadless: as a large guy who likes wide
> bars, I have found that I am able to make quill stems slip off-center,
> especially in low-speed situations where I am wrenching the bars, as one
> commonly encounters while MTBing, even when the quill was properly
> tightened.  It happened for me with both Bosco Bullmooses and with my Jones
> bars and VO quill stem.  So, for me, the more secure clamping of a 1 1/8"
> threadless stem would be a welcome feature on bike for trail riding.
>
> I sent Grant an email yesterday saying I would commit to buying one of the
> new frame + forks, especially for a discount.
>
> On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 9:03:07 AM UTC-7, Steven Sweedler wrote:
>>
>> Doesn’t Grant have a Pugsley with drop bars and cantis, or did at one
>> time, works for me. Steve
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 5:58 PM Belopsky  wrote:
>>
>>> Remember when the Pugsley had v-brakes?
>>> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/23/96/70/239670ed17601a10f069
>>> 7b8cd5cfdd6b.jpg
>>>
>>> --
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>> --
>> Steven Sweedler
>> Plymouth, New Hampshire
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

OK...I know there's no killing a thread, at least not without
repercussions, but I'm not going to fee it anymore. At its best, developing
a bike is fun, and this bike is pure that for me and the others here. It
will NOT meet expectations, it'll barely miss the mark for most people
reading this, there WILL be groans of "if only they'd one ONE thing
differently...!"  Nobody is as independent as they'd like to be, or as
people think they are, and I'm on top of that list. My influences are
different, and although I don't FEEL old (at 64), having been doing bikes
for so long, and at Rivendell so long, has made me more stubborn than wise.
I don't want to build up great anticipation and enthusiam for a "secret"
bike, and yet I am so jazzed about it that I can't keep my trap fully shut.
That feels shitty and I wish I could undo, but there's no undoing.
I appreciate, and I can see straight that I and we-all-at RIV are lucky to
have such a great online group of supporters and cheer-squads. It's a big
positive in my life aside from any commercial value that may come from it.
The only thing is, right now I'm thinking I've screwed up and created a
weird hubub about a super simple bike. Here's how it'll be, and these are
the only details I'm going to reveal, but as you'll see, they're not barely
anything:

fits to 2.8. NOT three. That's not an oversight, it's be design
canti-posts for, presumably, V-brakes. no disc mount. I briefly considered
it, I was willing to bend there, but the internal opinion was NO, and I'm
so glad.
great standover, but not a mixte. there's only one way to get that, so any
speculation as to how will be correct.
135 spacing
Seat lug, but fillet and/or tig elsewhere.
HHH-type fork
Long chainstays
Long wheelbase
The Best Model Name of All Time for Any Commercial Product
Two to four colors, three of which will be almost identical.
Not a copy of anybody else's bike (to my knowledge)
The coolest name
Fun decaliteureaux! And expensive ones. About three dollars more per bike
per set, after the exhorbitant set-up fee.
No, they're not holograms. Really? U-thot-dat?
You already know 73BB and OS threadless, and the reasons
The name will scare people off. No, it's not a political or religious name,
although I have to admit I'd be strongly inclined to vote for any candidate
with this name, just hoping he or she was left-leaning.

It will be all the mountain bike a non-racer needs for any terrain in the
world. You might have to walk a few things, but it'll glide over most...at
least, that's what I suspect, based on my experience with other bikes that
kind of do, too. But we all have different interpretations of "glide."
It'll be a nicely designed set of stairs, with steps just so, as opposed to
an elevator or even an escalator.

It will be, overall, like a single version of the HHH, but with some
costlier details that don't make it better.

G

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Belopsky  wrote:

> If this is a mountain bike then what are all the other mountain bi...
>
> OK I give up. Rivendell will Rivendell. Lets make more bikes that are
> already bikes we have. Like Crust right?
>
> ugh.
>
> At least someone is doing it
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-23 Thread Jeremy Till

I think, respectfully, that maybe we should give this thread a rest, at 
least until further details of the bike are confirmed, as we're going in 
circles.  It was pointed out 6 pages ago that yes, the first gen Pugsleys 
had cantilever bosses and yes, Rivendell built one up with drop bars and 
cantilevers, so their commitment to rim brakes with the new MTB in no way 
prevents it from being a "plus" bike.  

In regards my preference for threadless: as a large guy who likes wide 
bars, I have found that I am able to make quill stems slip off-center, 
especially in low-speed situations where I am wrenching the bars, as one 
commonly encounters while MTBing, even when the quill was properly 
tightened.  It happened for me with both Bosco Bullmooses and with my Jones 
bars and VO quill stem.  So, for me, the more secure clamping of a 1 1/8" 
threadless stem would be a welcome feature on bike for trail riding.  

I sent Grant an email yesterday saying I would commit to buying one of the 
new frame + forks, especially for a discount.  

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 9:03:07 AM UTC-7, Steven Sweedler wrote:
>
> Doesn’t Grant have a Pugsley with drop bars and cantis, or did at one 
> time, works for me. Steve
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 5:58 PM Belopsky  > wrote:
>
>> Remember when the Pugsley had v-brakes?
>>
>> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/23/96/70/239670ed17601a10f0697b8cd5cfdd6b.jpg
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
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>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
> -- 
> Steven Sweedler
> Plymouth, New Hampshire
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

The cantis are either vintage Onzas, or a modern copy thereof. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-23 Thread Drw

What are those canti’s on that pugsley?!

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-23 Thread Steven Sweedler

Doesn’t Grant have a Pugsley with drop bars and cantis, or did at one time,
works for me. Steve

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 5:58 PM Belopsky  wrote:

> Remember when the Pugsley had v-brakes?
>
> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/23/96/70/239670ed17601a10f0697b8cd5cfdd6b.jpg
>
> --
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-- 
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Plymouth, New Hampshire

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-22 Thread Joe Bernard

My bad (I'm much too old to be saying "my bad"), I guess I assumed fully-lugged 
without actually reading it. Zoinks!

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-07-22 Thread Grant Petersen

Nobody knows nuttin' yet. Well, not exactly nobody, and "nuttin'" is an
exagerration, but it's fun to say, and it's my birth-month, so I get to.
This is true: We (here at RBW) are having a fun time with it, and are
taking every detail seriously.

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Drw  wrote:

> So we know it’s gonna be fully lugged?
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-06-18 Thread masmojo

I've got 2.2" Race Kings on my Ogre and they are fine; 2.5 or better would be 
nice, but you almost hafta go tubeless at that point or the whole mess starts 
getting pretty heavy. Tubeless is not necessary for Plus or Fat, but IMHO makes 
it tolerable and once you go tubeless you can run lower pressures which, just 
compounds the advantage.
Thing is once you go tubeless you've brought yourself right back round to disk 
brake rims. It really is a vicious circle,  but I say "OK", no sense in 
fighting it; what's to be gained!?

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

Aha! Noted. Will lower sights and take aim at 4".

On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 1:43 PM, lconley  wrote:

> The 6" was un-rideable with the 3.8" tires. Surly Marge Lite rims if that
> makes any difference.
>
> Laing
>
> .
>
>
> On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 3:35:07 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> 6", and rideable with ~4" tires; I'll keep that data point in mind.
>> Fortunately for me, the bosque trails don't see too much 6" deep sand; 4"
>> yes, 6" no. So I'll stick to 700C X~60 for now. But good to know that, in
>> the forthcoming sand apocalypse, 3.8" Black Floyds would keep one spinning,
>> sand and pavement.
>>
>> Patrick "63 -- first Eisenhower administration" Moore
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-06-18 Thread lconley

The 6" was un-rideable with the 3.8" tires. Surly Marge Lite rims if that 
makes any difference.

Laing

.


On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 3:35:07 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

> 6", and rideable with ~4" tires; I'll keep that data point in mind. 
> Fortunately for me, the bosque trails don't see too much 6" deep sand; 4" 
> yes, 6" no. So I'll stick to 700C X~60 for now. But good to know that, in 
> the forthcoming sand apocalypse, 3.8" Black Floyds would keep one spinning, 
> sand and pavement.
>
> Patrick "63 -- first Eisenhower administration" Moore
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

6", and rideable with ~4" tires; I'll keep that data point in mind.
Fortunately for me, the bosque trails don't see too much 6" deep sand; 4"
yes, 6" no. So I'll stick to 700C X~60 for now. But good to know that, in
the forthcoming sand apocalypse, 3.8" Black Floyds would keep one spinning,
sand and pavement.

Patrick "63 -- first Eisenhower administration" Moore

On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 1:03 PM, lconley  wrote:

> The sand where I got in trouble was probably around 6" deep. This is
> simple white sand, the stuff that makes up most of Florida. It was a rails
> to trails ride, after they lifted the rails and rock, but before they
> installed the trail. The sand varied in depth and there were a couple of
> places where it just got too deep to steer. It made me wonder if I should
> have had a knobby on the rear. It was the kind of sand that if you were on
> a motorcycle, as long as you were on the throttle you were OK - let off or
> brake and you were going down. The legs just didn't make enough power to
> retain steering control. The sand on limerock roads is usually in the 1 to
> 3 inch range and as long as you can steer fairly straight and keep
> pedaling, you are OK. Down hills on the sand was downright scary -
> you don't want to brake but you don't really want to go any faster (20 - 30
> mph?) either.
>
> I am 62 so geriatric has-been is probably most appropriate. Memory and
> sand depth estimating abilities may be questionable also.
>
> Laing
>
>
>
> On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 2:35:19 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> Laing: How deep is this sand you are describing? How deep can the sand be
>> that 3.8 Black Floyds handle easily, meaning without extreme exertion and
>> bottomed-out gears? Is it much deeper than 3"?
>>
>> I live almost literally within spitting distance of the Rio Grande. The
>> *bosque* -- the belt of cottonwoods and shrubs on either side of the
>> river in the midst of the otherwise typical regional high desert scrubland
>> -- extends for about a mile on either side of the river, actual width
>> depending on the local pattern of the regional *acequia* irrigation
>> ditch network, dating from the late 16th century (at least for the
>> Hispanos), which draws water from the river.
>>
>> So, the soil throughout this belt of green is essentially river silt;
>> until a couple of generations ago, when "they" dammed and diverted it, the
>> river would regularly flood, and big "jetty jacks" still litter the bosque
>> woodland. Thus the trails I ride are composed of fine, silty sand, and the
>> degree of compaction and firmness depends greatly on moisture content;
>> being high desert, this content is often very low, so that the soil gets
>> dry and loose and churned up, and in spots can be 4" deep. (Locally sourced
>> horse shit can add another 1/2".)
>>
>> I love riding in this environment. So far, the optimum bosque cycling
>> compromise -- juggling my preference for typical old fashioned road bike
>> geometry; drop bars; taller wheels for soft and rough surfaces; good
>> pavement rolling for at least 1/3 of mileage on asphalt with thin, supple,
>> and nice-rolling tires; the sand described; and manageable Q -- has left me
>> with a bike that can take 700C X 60s and fenders, and also 584 X 75s. The
>> Matthews has 700C C X 61 mm 1 lb/each Big Ones at ~18-23 psi, tubeless, and
>> so far, after riding many other combinations in this environment, this is
>> by far the best compromise.
>>
>> Your description of riding sand on ~4" tires, and especially your
>> description of the Black Floyds rolling along nicely on pavement, intrigues
>> me. Perhaps I need to shift the "compromise line" a few riding units toward
>> shorter/fatter ...? So: how deep can the sand be that your Black Floyds
>> handle without pain? And when you speak of draughting the local CF club:
>> are you speaking as a geriatric has-been, or as a youthful 40-something?
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 11:56 AM, lconley  wrote:
>>
>>> Fatbikes rule in the sand. I have been on a few group rides on my cheap
>>> fat bike with expensive tires (SE Bikes F...@e - 26x3.8 Surly Black
>>> Floyds - basically slicks) and I rode away from the much younger, much
>>> lighter, much, much better condition riders on expensive full suspension
>>> carbon fiber bikes with narrower tires when on the sand. They were in the
>>> sand, I was on top of the sand. Same thing a couple years ago with two of
>>> my brothers in law on some sandy back roads in North Carolina. They wanted
>>> to ride my cheap fatbike over their full suspension steeds, because it was
>>> a lot more fun and less effort. Yes, the handling is pretty strange for a
>>> few miles, but then you adapt and it feels normal. It is no a cure-all
>>> though - there is some sand that even the fat bike sinks into (with a fat
>>> rider). I have never ridden a mountain bike or a fat bike in actual
>>> mountains, just on back roads and trails in Florida, Georgia and North
>>> Carolina. On pavement,

Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-06-18 Thread lconley

The sand where I got in trouble was probably around 6" deep. This is simple 
white sand, the stuff that makes up most of Florida. It was a rails to 
trails ride, after they lifted the rails and rock, but before they 
installed the trail. The sand varied in depth and there were a couple of 
places where it just got too deep to steer. It made me wonder if I should 
have had a knobby on the rear. It was the kind of sand that if you were on 
a motorcycle, as long as you were on the throttle you were OK - let off or 
brake and you were going down. The legs just didn't make enough power to 
retain steering control. The sand on limerock roads is usually in the 1 to 
3 inch range and as long as you can steer fairly straight and keep 
pedaling, you are OK. Down hills on the sand was downright scary - 
you don't want to brake but you don't really want to go any faster (20 - 30 
mph?) either.

I am 62 so geriatric has-been is probably most appropriate. Memory and sand 
depth estimating abilities may be questionable also.

Laing



On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 2:35:19 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

> Laing: How deep is this sand you are describing? How deep can the sand be 
> that 3.8 Black Floyds handle easily, meaning without extreme exertion and 
> bottomed-out gears? Is it much deeper than 3"?
>
> I live almost literally within spitting distance of the Rio Grande. The 
> *bosque* -- the belt of cottonwoods and shrubs on either side of the 
> river in the midst of the otherwise typical regional high desert scrubland 
> -- extends for about a mile on either side of the river, actual width 
> depending on the local pattern of the regional *acequia* irrigation ditch 
> network, dating from the late 16th century (at least for the Hispanos), 
> which draws water from the river. 
>
> So, the soil throughout this belt of green is essentially river silt; 
> until a couple of generations ago, when "they" dammed and diverted it, the 
> river would regularly flood, and big "jetty jacks" still litter the bosque 
> woodland. Thus the trails I ride are composed of fine, silty sand, and the 
> degree of compaction and firmness depends greatly on moisture content; 
> being high desert, this content is often very low, so that the soil gets 
> dry and loose and churned up, and in spots can be 4" deep. (Locally sourced 
> horse shit can add another 1/2".)
>
> I love riding in this environment. So far, the optimum bosque cycling 
> compromise -- juggling my preference for typical old fashioned road bike 
> geometry; drop bars; taller wheels for soft and rough surfaces; good 
> pavement rolling for at least 1/3 of mileage on asphalt with thin, supple, 
> and nice-rolling tires; the sand described; and manageable Q -- has left me 
> with a bike that can take 700C X 60s and fenders, and also 584 X 75s. The 
> Matthews has 700C C X 61 mm 1 lb/each Big Ones at ~18-23 psi, tubeless, and 
> so far, after riding many other combinations in this environment, this is 
> by far the best compromise. 
>
> Your description of riding sand on ~4" tires, and especially your 
> description of the Black Floyds rolling along nicely on pavement, intrigues 
> me. Perhaps I need to shift the "compromise line" a few riding units toward 
> shorter/fatter ...? So: how deep can the sand be that your Black Floyds 
> handle without pain? And when you speak of draughting the local CF club: 
> are you speaking as a geriatric has-been, or as a youthful 40-something?
>
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 11:56 AM, lconley > 
> wrote:
>
>> Fatbikes rule in the sand. I have been on a few group rides on my cheap 
>> fat bike with expensive tires (SE Bikes F...@e  - 26x3.8 
>> Surly Black Floyds - basically slicks) and I rode away from the much 
>> younger, much lighter, much, much better condition riders on expensive full 
>> suspension carbon fiber bikes with narrower tires when on the sand. They 
>> were in the sand, I was on top of the sand. Same thing a couple years ago 
>> with two of my brothers in law on some sandy back roads in North Carolina. 
>> They wanted to ride my cheap fatbike over their full suspension steeds, 
>> because it was a lot more fun and less effort. Yes, the handling is pretty 
>> strange for a few miles, but then you adapt and it feels normal. It is no a 
>> cure-all though - there is some sand that even the fat bike sinks into 
>> (with a fat rider). I have never ridden a mountain bike or a fat bike 
>> in actual mountains, just on back roads and trails in Florida, Georgia and 
>> North Carolina. On pavement, I can draft the local spandex and carbon bike 
>> club on the same bike - very little rolling friction at high pressure (20 - 
>> 25 psi), but the Black Floyds are big lightweight slicks compared to most 
>> fatbike tires.
>>
>> I am in the middle of reconfiguring my Bombadil from Bullmoose bars to 
>> Randonneur drops. It has 650b Atlas rims and I am going to see how big of a 
>> tire I can get under Honjo H-95 fenders.
>>
>> Laing
>> Cocoa, FL

Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

Laing: How deep is this sand you are describing? How deep can the sand be
that 3.8 Black Floyds handle easily, meaning without extreme exertion and
bottomed-out gears? Is it much deeper than 3"?

I live almost literally within spitting distance of the Rio Grande. The
*bosque* -- the belt of cottonwoods and shrubs on either side of the river
in the midst of the otherwise typical regional high desert scrubland --
extends for about a mile on either side of the river, actual width
depending on the local pattern of the regional *acequia* irrigation ditch
network, dating from the late 16th century (at least for the Hispanos),
which draws water from the river.

So, the soil throughout this belt of green is essentially river silt; until
a couple of generations ago, when "they" dammed and diverted it, the river
would regularly flood, and big "jetty jacks" still litter the bosque
woodland. Thus the trails I ride are composed of fine, silty sand, and the
degree of compaction and firmness depends greatly on moisture content;
being high desert, this content is often very low, so that the soil gets
dry and loose and churned up, and in spots can be 4" deep. (Locally sourced
horse shit can add another 1/2".)

I love riding in this environment. So far, the optimum bosque cycling
compromise -- juggling my preference for typical old fashioned road bike
geometry; drop bars; taller wheels for soft and rough surfaces; good
pavement rolling for at least 1/3 of mileage on asphalt with thin, supple,
and nice-rolling tires; the sand described; and manageable Q -- has left me
with a bike that can take 700C X 60s and fenders, and also 584 X 75s. The
Matthews has 700C C X 61 mm 1 lb/each Big Ones at ~18-23 psi, tubeless, and
so far, after riding many other combinations in this environment, this is
by far the best compromise.

Your description of riding sand on ~4" tires, and especially your
description of the Black Floyds rolling along nicely on pavement, intrigues
me. Perhaps I need to shift the "compromise line" a few riding units toward
shorter/fatter ...? So: how deep can the sand be that your Black Floyds
handle without pain? And when you speak of draughting the local CF club:
are you speaking as a geriatric has-been, or as a youthful 40-something?

On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 11:56 AM, lconley  wrote:

> Fatbikes rule in the sand. I have been on a few group rides on my cheap
> fat bike with expensive tires (SE Bikes F@e - 26x3.8 Surly Black Floyds -
> basically slicks) and I rode away from the much younger, much lighter,
> much, much better condition riders on expensive full suspension carbon
> fiber bikes with narrower tires when on the sand. They were in the sand, I
> was on top of the sand. Same thing a couple years ago with two of my
> brothers in law on some sandy back roads in North Carolina. They wanted to
> ride my cheap fatbike over their full suspension steeds, because it was a
> lot more fun and less effort. Yes, the handling is pretty strange for a few
> miles, but then you adapt and it feels normal. It is no a cure-all though -
> there is some sand that even the fat bike sinks into (with a fat rider). I
> have never ridden a mountain bike or a fat bike in actual mountains, just
> on back roads and trails in Florida, Georgia and North Carolina. On
> pavement, I can draft the local spandex and carbon bike club on the same
> bike - very little rolling friction at high pressure (20 - 25 psi), but the
> Black Floyds are big lightweight slicks compared to most fatbike tires.
>
> I am in the middle of reconfiguring my Bombadil from Bullmoose bars to
> Randonneur drops. It has 650b Atlas rims and I am going to see how big of a
> tire I can get under Honjo H-95 fenders.
>
> Laing
> Cocoa, FL
>
> On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 1:07:40 PM UTC-4, Ryan M. wrote:
>
>> You aren't specifically asking about dedicated mtb fatbikes, but I've
>> ridden a fat bike in snow, sand, and dirt and can say that the rolling
>> resistance is enough to take notice; the plus size (3" is still an issue
>> but not as bad). I honestly did not like it, and did not like the way the
>> bike decided to turn when it dang well wanted. I really didn't like riding
>> the fat bike on twisty single track as the bike just behaved weirdly and it
>> was something I was not used to. It seemed to just not want to turn when I
>> wanted it to and then moments later it would. Odd. Plus, exact tire
>> pressure was hugely important. The bikes definitely have their following
>> though, but they aren't for me.
>>
>> On my mtbs I usually run 2.3 or 2.4 (29'ers) on the fronts and 2.2s on
>> the rear and the combination works great on the single track I ride and the
>> gravel roads around me.
>>
>> On Saturday, June 16, 2018 at 1:53:28 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> My personal suggestion for any new Rivendell mountain bike is that it
>>> accommodate 3" wide 650B tires, or at least, 3" wide 26" (559) tires. Or,
>>> that it be built for 65 mm 700C tires. Fat and tall really

Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-06-18 Thread iamkeith

I'll take the opposite argument, though you partly made it yourself:  For 
fatter tires to work well, the air pressure is *extremely* critical, and 
even minute differences make a huge difference.   I adjust for every ride 
but, to me, that's still less hassle than dealing with negative and 
positive air pressure, rebound settings, lockout valving and maintenance on 
a suspension fork though.  

But equally important are geometry, tire selection, and tire-to-rim-width 
selection!

I have a half dozen or more mountain bikes in the garage, and the ONLY one 
i ever want to ride on any kind of technical or off road trail these days 
is my Jones with a 3" rear tire and a 4.8" front tire.  There's nothing 
weird about the handling at all, on soft surfaces.  It took me trying two 
front rims, three rear tires and four front tires to find the combination 
that worked perfectly though.  Some front tires had the worst self-steer 
characteristics that I've ever felt, and some just weren't big enough 
volume. I think the low trail fork, compensating for the added pneumatic 
trail of the fat tire, is a big difference.   Similar differences with 
rolling resistance.  Still, I do understand your experience because I have 
another full fat bike that I'm forced to ride 7 months a year.  I kind of 
hate it actually, but it gets me outside in the winter.

No fat tire is great on pavement, but that's not an issue where I live.  On 
the other hand - and this may again be a function of my trails and my 
weight, but 2.8" @ 14psi seems to be the magic numbers below which 
traction, comfort and pinch flats all suffer.   I would NEVER, ever again 
buy a mountain bike that didn't give me the option of at least 3".  
(Rivendell excepted - but that's a bit different and I'm sort of 
anticipating an all-rounder that i'm unlikely to abuse the same way as 
another mountain bike.)  Meanwhile the other bikes I have my eye on and am 
most likes to actually buy are a Kona Wozo for a hardtail and a Lenz 
Fattilac for a full-suspension.  Other than XC speed - which I care nothing 
about - there's just zero advantage to a tire less than 2.8" for me and for 
my kind of riding.  (which i should point out again is NOT reckless, 
trail-shredding, bro-bra stuff.)

On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 11:07:40 AM UTC-6, Ryan M. wrote:
>
> You aren't specifically asking about dedicated mtb fatbikes, but I've 
> ridden a fat bike in snow, sand, and dirt and can say that the rolling 
> resistance is enough to take notice; the plus size (3" is still an issue 
> but not as bad). I honestly did not like it, and did not like the way the 
> bike decided to turn when it dang well wanted. I really didn't like riding 
> the fat bike on twisty single track as the bike just behaved weirdly and it 
> was something I was not used to. It seemed to just not want to turn when I 
> wanted it to and then moments later it would. Odd. Plus, exact tire 
> pressure was hugely important. The bikes definitely have their following 
> though, but they aren't for me. 
>
> On my mtbs I usually run 2.3 or 2.4 (29'ers) on the fronts and 2.2s on the 
> rear and the combination works great on the single track I ride and the 
> gravel roads around me. 
>
> On Saturday, June 16, 2018 at 1:53:28 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> My personal suggestion for any new Rivendell mountain bike is that it 
>> accommodate 3" wide 650B tires, or at least, 3" wide 26" (559) tires. Or, 
>> that it be built for 65 mm 700C tires. Fat and tall really does make a 
>> difference on soft surfaces, and on high-frequency, low-amplitude bumps (at 
>> least, if you keep the tire at appropriately low pressures). 2 inches just 
>> isn't fat enough.
>>
>> Aside: Curious: has anyone here had the opportunity to personally compare 
>> 584 X 70 with 622 X 60 in sand?
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

2018-06-18 Thread lconley

Fatbikes rule in the sand. I have been on a few group rides on my cheap fat 
bike with expensive tires (SE Bikes F@e - 26x3.8 Surly Black Floyds - 
basically slicks) and I rode away from the much younger, much lighter, 
much, much better condition riders on expensive full suspension carbon 
fiber bikes with narrower tires when on the sand. They were in the sand, I 
was on top of the sand. Same thing a couple years ago with two of my 
brothers in law on some sandy back roads in North Carolina. They wanted to 
ride my cheap fatbike over their full suspension steeds, because it was a 
lot more fun and less effort. Yes, the handling is pretty strange for a few 
miles, but then you adapt and it feels normal. It is no a cure-all though - 
there is some sand that even the fat bike sinks into (with a fat rider). I 
have never ridden a mountain bike or a fat bike in actual mountains, just 
on back roads and trails in Florida, Georgia and North Carolina. On 
pavement, I can draft the local spandex and carbon bike club on the same 
bike - very little rolling friction at high pressure (20 - 25 psi), but the 
Black Floyds are big lightweight slicks compared to most fatbike tires.

I am in the middle of reconfiguring my Bombadil from Bullmoose bars to 
Randonneur drops. It has 650b Atlas rims and I am going to see how big of a 
tire I can get under Honjo H-95 fenders.

Laing
Cocoa, FL

On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 1:07:40 PM UTC-4, Ryan M. wrote:

> You aren't specifically asking about dedicated mtb fatbikes, but I've 
> ridden a fat bike in snow, sand, and dirt and can say that the rolling 
> resistance is enough to take notice; the plus size (3" is still an issue 
> but not as bad). I honestly did not like it, and did not like the way the 
> bike decided to turn when it dang well wanted. I really didn't like riding 
> the fat bike on twisty single track as the bike just behaved weirdly and it 
> was something I was not used to. It seemed to just not want to turn when I 
> wanted it to and then moments later it would. Odd. Plus, exact tire 
> pressure was hugely important. The bikes definitely have their following 
> though, but they aren't for me. 
>
> On my mtbs I usually run 2.3 or 2.4 (29'ers) on the fronts and 2.2s on the 
> rear and the combination works great on the single track I ride and the 
> gravel roads around me. 
>
> On Saturday, June 16, 2018 at 1:53:28 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> My personal suggestion for any new Rivendell mountain bike is that it 
>> accommodate 3" wide 650B tires, or at least, 3" wide 26" (559) tires. Or, 
>> that it be built for 65 mm 700C tires. Fat and tall really does make a 
>> difference on soft surfaces, and on high-frequency, low-amplitude bumps (at 
>> least, if you keep the tire at appropriately low pressures). 2 inches just 
>> isn't fat enough.
>>
>> Aside: Curious: has anyone here had the opportunity to personally compare 
>> 584 X 70 with 622 X 60 in sand?
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?