Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Joel Stern]

I know the 51cm stayed the same, not sure where the longer ones started.

On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 6:46 PM Bones  wrote:

> In an email back in early September, Will mentioned that they have
> lengthened the chainstays on the newest Sams. The 60cm now has 48.5cm
> chainstays... which is pretty close to the 61.5 Homer (49cm). Tubing, tire
> clearance and brake type seem to be what sets them apart.
>
> Bones
>
> On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 6:16:04 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> "Sam shorter than Homer"
>>
>> My guess is it's an older design they've decided to leave alone for
>> buyers wary of the super-long stays of the newer models.
>>
>> On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 12:36:42 PM UTC-8 Sean B. wrote:
>>
>>> Why do you think the chainstays on the Hillborne are shorter than the
>>> AHH? With the AHH being more of a roadish bike, I would imagine it would be
>>> opposite.
>>>
>>> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 10:35:49 AM UTC-5 bjmi...@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
 What I really like about Rivendell is that they do have a handful of
 frames that will work for you no matter what...and that there are little
 nuanced differences between Sam/Homer, Atlantis/Joe, etc... The differences
 in sizing between the two helps cover all pbh sizes...I'm a touch over
 93cm, so a Homer (which I was planning on getting until recently) is tough
 because I'd have more clearance than I need on a 61.5 , but might not have
 enough clearance on a 64. The Sam's most recent run had a 62cm frame that
 would be a perfect fit for me. Had I not just ordered an Atlantis the
 Tuesday before they released the garage sale frames, I would have snagged
 that 62cm orange Sam and would have got to keep using sidepull brakes.

 I agree that having Sam and Homer offer different braking makes
 sense...the Homer is less burly (according to Rivendell's catalog) so it
 makes sense that it takes the more traditional roadie brakes.


 On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 10:07:05 AM UTC-5 ted wrote:

> I'll guess the Sam has gone back to being canti because the Homer is
> now MIT also. Now costs are similar (same?), both have 6 deg top tubes,
> etc. May as well make the brakes different.
> I think choosing between a new Sam or Homer based on brake style
> preference would make a lot of sense.
> Of course I also think choosing based on preferred color, head badge,
> or name would make a lot of sense too.
>
> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:56:14 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> How the canti-Sam became a sidepull-Sam early on involves a guess on
>> my part based on more arcane Riv knowledge than I should probably admit 
>> to
>> harboring:
>>
>> Originally the Sam showed up as a canti MIT version of the
>> Toyo/Waterford Saluki/Homer caliper bike. I believe the caliper Ram was
>> still around at this time, too, so Riv was all full up on caliper road
>> bikes. Later the Ram went away and Homer kept getting more expensive so 
>> Sam
>> morphed into the caliper road/country "standard" Rivbike. Now things are
>> all different and I won't try to figure out why it's canti again, I've 
>> been
>> arcane enough!
>>
>> Joe "he knows too much, yet is so little help" Bernard
>>
>> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:10:37 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote:
>>
>>> From an engineering perspective, what I appreciate about side-pull
>>> brakes is that all the clamping forces are contained within the brake
>>> itself, ie it does not exert any bending force on the fork/frame like a
>>> canti or v-brake does. Even the braking force goes to the crown of the 
>>> fork
>>> rather than the blades, so the fork blades can focus on other things. 
>>> That
>>> said, the tire clearance limitation is a problem if you like anything
>>> bigger than a 42c.
>>>
>>> Reminds me - James told me via email that the Charlie H Gallop is
>>> going to be side-pull rather than v-brake like the prototypes
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:01 PM ted  wrote:
>>>
 New newer newest ...
 Standard oversised ...
 normal short long ...
 Traditional ...

 All relative terms whose meanings morph and evolve and the use of
 which may or may not make sense to one depending on how long you've 
 been
 paying attention.
 From where I sit the waterford AHH and atlantis were the last of
 the more "traditional" Riv designs, the break being 6 deg top tubes and
 more limited sizing.
 With the longer wheelbase MIT models its another leap from
 "traditional".
 Maybe it's because I grew up before mountain bikes, but to my eye
 side/center pull brakes are traditional while cantilevers (not to 
 mention V
 brakes) are new 

Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[tom coppedge]

Slightly longer chain stays, not much, since it now takes a larger tire
compared to sidepull version — hooray. Geometry is essentially same
otherwise I believe. I have a 62 double TT, wife has a 58, both sidepulls.
The newer 60 canti is of so close geometrically to the 62 sidepull.

Tom

On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 6:46 PM Bones  wrote:

> In an email back in early September, Will mentioned that they have
> lengthened the chainstays on the newest Sams. The 60cm now has 48.5cm
> chainstays... which is pretty close to the 61.5 Homer (49cm). Tubing, tire
> clearance and brake type seem to be what sets them apart.
>
> Bones
>
> On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 6:16:04 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> "Sam shorter than Homer"
>>
>> My guess is it's an older design they've decided to leave alone for
>> buyers wary of the super-long stays of the newer models.
>>
>> On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 12:36:42 PM UTC-8 Sean B. wrote:
>>
>>> Why do you think the chainstays on the Hillborne are shorter than the
>>> AHH? With the AHH being more of a roadish bike, I would imagine it would be
>>> opposite.
>>>
>>> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 10:35:49 AM UTC-5 bjmi...@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
 What I really like about Rivendell is that they do have a handful of
 frames that will work for you no matter what...and that there are little
 nuanced differences between Sam/Homer, Atlantis/Joe, etc... The differences
 in sizing between the two helps cover all pbh sizes...I'm a touch over
 93cm, so a Homer (which I was planning on getting until recently) is tough
 because I'd have more clearance than I need on a 61.5 , but might not have
 enough clearance on a 64. The Sam's most recent run had a 62cm frame that
 would be a perfect fit for me. Had I not just ordered an Atlantis the
 Tuesday before they released the garage sale frames, I would have snagged
 that 62cm orange Sam and would have got to keep using sidepull brakes.

 I agree that having Sam and Homer offer different braking makes
 sense...the Homer is less burly (according to Rivendell's catalog) so it
 makes sense that it takes the more traditional roadie brakes.


 On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 10:07:05 AM UTC-5 ted wrote:

> I'll guess the Sam has gone back to being canti because the Homer is
> now MIT also. Now costs are similar (same?), both have 6 deg top tubes,
> etc. May as well make the brakes different.
> I think choosing between a new Sam or Homer based on brake style
> preference would make a lot of sense.
> Of course I also think choosing based on preferred color, head badge,
> or name would make a lot of sense too.
>
> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:56:14 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> How the canti-Sam became a sidepull-Sam early on involves a guess on
>> my part based on more arcane Riv knowledge than I should probably admit 
>> to
>> harboring:
>>
>> Originally the Sam showed up as a canti MIT version of the
>> Toyo/Waterford Saluki/Homer caliper bike. I believe the caliper Ram was
>> still around at this time, too, so Riv was all full up on caliper road
>> bikes. Later the Ram went away and Homer kept getting more expensive so 
>> Sam
>> morphed into the caliper road/country "standard" Rivbike. Now things are
>> all different and I won't try to figure out why it's canti again, I've 
>> been
>> arcane enough!
>>
>> Joe "he knows too much, yet is so little help" Bernard
>>
>> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:10:37 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote:
>>
>>> From an engineering perspective, what I appreciate about side-pull
>>> brakes is that all the clamping forces are contained within the brake
>>> itself, ie it does not exert any bending force on the fork/frame like a
>>> canti or v-brake does. Even the braking force goes to the crown of the 
>>> fork
>>> rather than the blades, so the fork blades can focus on other things. 
>>> That
>>> said, the tire clearance limitation is a problem if you like anything
>>> bigger than a 42c.
>>>
>>> Reminds me - James told me via email that the Charlie H Gallop is
>>> going to be side-pull rather than v-brake like the prototypes
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:01 PM ted  wrote:
>>>
 New newer newest ...
 Standard oversised ...
 normal short long ...
 Traditional ...

 All relative terms whose meanings morph and evolve and the use of
 which may or may not make sense to one depending on how long you've 
 been
 paying attention.
 From where I sit the waterford AHH and atlantis were the last of
 the more "traditional" Riv designs, the break being 6 deg top tubes and
 more limited sizing.
 With the longer wheelbase MIT models its another leap from

Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Bones]

In an email back in early September, Will mentioned that they have 
lengthened the chainstays on the newest Sams. The 60cm now has 48.5cm 
chainstays... which is pretty close to the 61.5 Homer (49cm). Tubing, tire 
clearance and brake type seem to be what sets them apart.

Bones

On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 6:16:04 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:

> "Sam shorter than Homer"
>
> My guess is it's an older design they've decided to leave alone for buyers 
> wary of the super-long stays of the newer models. 
>
> On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 12:36:42 PM UTC-8 Sean B. wrote:
>
>> Why do you think the chainstays on the Hillborne are shorter than the 
>> AHH? With the AHH being more of a roadish bike, I would imagine it would be 
>> opposite. 
>>
>> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 10:35:49 AM UTC-5 bjmi...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> What I really like about Rivendell is that they do have a handful of 
>>> frames that will work for you no matter what...and that there are little 
>>> nuanced differences between Sam/Homer, Atlantis/Joe, etc... The differences 
>>> in sizing between the two helps cover all pbh sizes...I'm a touch over 
>>> 93cm, so a Homer (which I was planning on getting until recently) is tough 
>>> because I'd have more clearance than I need on a 61.5 , but might not have 
>>> enough clearance on a 64. The Sam's most recent run had a 62cm frame that 
>>> would be a perfect fit for me. Had I not just ordered an Atlantis the 
>>> Tuesday before they released the garage sale frames, I would have snagged 
>>> that 62cm orange Sam and would have got to keep using sidepull brakes. 
>>>
>>> I agree that having Sam and Homer offer different braking makes 
>>> sense...the Homer is less burly (according to Rivendell's catalog) so it 
>>> makes sense that it takes the more traditional roadie brakes. 
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 10:07:05 AM UTC-5 ted wrote:
>>>
 I'll guess the Sam has gone back to being canti because the Homer is 
 now MIT also. Now costs are similar (same?), both have 6 deg top tubes, 
 etc. May as well make the brakes different.
 I think choosing between a new Sam or Homer based on brake style 
 preference would make a lot of sense.
 Of course I also think choosing based on preferred color, head badge, 
 or name would make a lot of sense too.

 On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:56:14 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> How the canti-Sam became a sidepull-Sam early on involves a guess on 
> my part based on more arcane Riv knowledge than I should probably admit 
> to 
> harboring:
>
> Originally the Sam showed up as a canti MIT version of the 
> Toyo/Waterford Saluki/Homer caliper bike. I believe the caliper Ram was 
> still around at this time, too, so Riv was all full up on caliper road 
> bikes. Later the Ram went away and Homer kept getting more expensive so 
> Sam 
> morphed into the caliper road/country "standard" Rivbike. Now things are 
> all different and I won't try to figure out why it's canti again, I've 
> been 
> arcane enough!
>
> Joe "he knows too much, yet is so little help" Bernard 
>
> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:10:37 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote:
>
>> From an engineering perspective, what I appreciate about side-pull 
>> brakes is that all the clamping forces are contained within the brake 
>> itself, ie it does not exert any bending force on the fork/frame like a 
>> canti or v-brake does. Even the braking force goes to the crown of the 
>> fork 
>> rather than the blades, so the fork blades can focus on other things. 
>> That 
>> said, the tire clearance limitation is a problem if you like anything 
>> bigger than a 42c. 
>>
>> Reminds me - James told me via email that the Charlie H Gallop is 
>> going to be side-pull rather than v-brake like the prototypes
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:01 PM ted  wrote:
>>
>>> New newer newest ...
>>> Standard oversised ...
>>> normal short long ...
>>> Traditional ...
>>>
>>> All relative terms whose meanings morph and evolve and the use of 
>>> which may or may not make sense to one depending on how long you've 
>>> been 
>>> paying attention.
>>> From where I sit the waterford AHH and atlantis were the last of the 
>>> more "traditional" Riv designs, the break being 6 deg top tubes and 
>>> more 
>>> limited sizing.
>>> With the longer wheelbase MIT models its another leap from 
>>> "traditional".
>>> Maybe it's because I grew up before mountain bikes, but to my eye 
>>> side/center pull brakes are traditional while cantilevers (not to 
>>> mention V 
>>> brakes) are new fangled. Discs new fangleder yet.
>>> But I think RBW would say they aren't about tradition but about 
>>> practical bikes and what works.
>>>
>>> There were 

Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Joe Bernard]

"Sam shorter than Homer"

My guess is it's an older design they've decided to leave alone for buyers 
wary of the super-long stays of the newer models. 

On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 12:36:42 PM UTC-8 Sean B. wrote:

> Why do you think the chainstays on the Hillborne are shorter than the AHH? 
> With the AHH being more of a roadish bike, I would imagine it would be 
> opposite. 
>
> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 10:35:49 AM UTC-5 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> What I really like about Rivendell is that they do have a handful of 
>> frames that will work for you no matter what...and that there are little 
>> nuanced differences between Sam/Homer, Atlantis/Joe, etc... The differences 
>> in sizing between the two helps cover all pbh sizes...I'm a touch over 
>> 93cm, so a Homer (which I was planning on getting until recently) is tough 
>> because I'd have more clearance than I need on a 61.5 , but might not have 
>> enough clearance on a 64. The Sam's most recent run had a 62cm frame that 
>> would be a perfect fit for me. Had I not just ordered an Atlantis the 
>> Tuesday before they released the garage sale frames, I would have snagged 
>> that 62cm orange Sam and would have got to keep using sidepull brakes. 
>>
>> I agree that having Sam and Homer offer different braking makes 
>> sense...the Homer is less burly (according to Rivendell's catalog) so it 
>> makes sense that it takes the more traditional roadie brakes. 
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 10:07:05 AM UTC-5 ted wrote:
>>
>>> I'll guess the Sam has gone back to being canti because the Homer is now 
>>> MIT also. Now costs are similar (same?), both have 6 deg top tubes, etc. 
>>> May as well make the brakes different.
>>> I think choosing between a new Sam or Homer based on brake style 
>>> preference would make a lot of sense.
>>> Of course I also think choosing based on preferred color, head badge, or 
>>> name would make a lot of sense too.
>>>
>>> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:56:14 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:

 How the canti-Sam became a sidepull-Sam early on involves a guess on my 
 part based on more arcane Riv knowledge than I should probably admit to 
 harboring:

 Originally the Sam showed up as a canti MIT version of the 
 Toyo/Waterford Saluki/Homer caliper bike. I believe the caliper Ram was 
 still around at this time, too, so Riv was all full up on caliper road 
 bikes. Later the Ram went away and Homer kept getting more expensive so 
 Sam 
 morphed into the caliper road/country "standard" Rivbike. Now things are 
 all different and I won't try to figure out why it's canti again, I've 
 been 
 arcane enough!

 Joe "he knows too much, yet is so little help" Bernard 

 On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:10:37 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote:

> From an engineering perspective, what I appreciate about side-pull 
> brakes is that all the clamping forces are contained within the brake 
> itself, ie it does not exert any bending force on the fork/frame like a 
> canti or v-brake does. Even the braking force goes to the crown of the 
> fork 
> rather than the blades, so the fork blades can focus on other things. 
> That 
> said, the tire clearance limitation is a problem if you like anything 
> bigger than a 42c. 
>
> Reminds me - James told me via email that the Charlie H Gallop is 
> going to be side-pull rather than v-brake like the prototypes
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:01 PM ted  wrote:
>
>> New newer newest ...
>> Standard oversised ...
>> normal short long ...
>> Traditional ...
>>
>> All relative terms whose meanings morph and evolve and the use of 
>> which may or may not make sense to one depending on how long you've been 
>> paying attention.
>> From where I sit the waterford AHH and atlantis were the last of the 
>> more "traditional" Riv designs, the break being 6 deg top tubes and more 
>> limited sizing.
>> With the longer wheelbase MIT models its another leap from 
>> "traditional".
>> Maybe it's because I grew up before mountain bikes, but to my eye 
>> side/center pull brakes are traditional while cantilevers (not to 
>> mention V 
>> brakes) are new fangled. Discs new fangleder yet.
>> But I think RBW would say they aren't about tradition but about 
>> practical bikes and what works.
>>
>> There were side pull Roms and canti-Roms, there were side pull 
>> Salukis and canti Salukis, there've been canti Sams and side pull Sams, 
>> the 
>> SOs were going to be side pull but the builder used the wrong rear brake 
>> bridge so they ended up canti. Prior to their recent embrace of V brakes 
>> (and the slow march towards ever bigger and bigger tires) RBW seemed 
>> quite 
>> agnostic wrt the whole canti vs side/center pull thing, and they went 

Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Joel Stern]

Not sure but happy they are.  Very happy with the Sam.

On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 3:36 PM Sean B.  wrote:

> Why do you think the chainstays on the Hillborne are shorter than the AHH?
> With the AHH being more of a roadish bike, I would imagine it would be
> opposite.
>
> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 10:35:49 AM UTC-5 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> What I really like about Rivendell is that they do have a handful of
>> frames that will work for you no matter what...and that there are little
>> nuanced differences between Sam/Homer, Atlantis/Joe, etc... The differences
>> in sizing between the two helps cover all pbh sizes...I'm a touch over
>> 93cm, so a Homer (which I was planning on getting until recently) is tough
>> because I'd have more clearance than I need on a 61.5 , but might not have
>> enough clearance on a 64. The Sam's most recent run had a 62cm frame that
>> would be a perfect fit for me. Had I not just ordered an Atlantis the
>> Tuesday before they released the garage sale frames, I would have snagged
>> that 62cm orange Sam and would have got to keep using sidepull brakes.
>>
>> I agree that having Sam and Homer offer different braking makes
>> sense...the Homer is less burly (according to Rivendell's catalog) so it
>> makes sense that it takes the more traditional roadie brakes.
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 10:07:05 AM UTC-5 ted wrote:
>>
>>> I'll guess the Sam has gone back to being canti because the Homer is now
>>> MIT also. Now costs are similar (same?), both have 6 deg top tubes, etc.
>>> May as well make the brakes different.
>>> I think choosing between a new Sam or Homer based on brake style
>>> preference would make a lot of sense.
>>> Of course I also think choosing based on preferred color, head badge, or
>>> name would make a lot of sense too.
>>>
>>> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:56:14 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:

 How the canti-Sam became a sidepull-Sam early on involves a guess on my
 part based on more arcane Riv knowledge than I should probably admit to
 harboring:

 Originally the Sam showed up as a canti MIT version of the
 Toyo/Waterford Saluki/Homer caliper bike. I believe the caliper Ram was
 still around at this time, too, so Riv was all full up on caliper road
 bikes. Later the Ram went away and Homer kept getting more expensive so Sam
 morphed into the caliper road/country "standard" Rivbike. Now things are
 all different and I won't try to figure out why it's canti again, I've been
 arcane enough!

 Joe "he knows too much, yet is so little help" Bernard

 On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:10:37 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote:

> From an engineering perspective, what I appreciate about side-pull
> brakes is that all the clamping forces are contained within the brake
> itself, ie it does not exert any bending force on the fork/frame like a
> canti or v-brake does. Even the braking force goes to the crown of the 
> fork
> rather than the blades, so the fork blades can focus on other things. That
> said, the tire clearance limitation is a problem if you like anything
> bigger than a 42c.
>
> Reminds me - James told me via email that the Charlie H Gallop is
> going to be side-pull rather than v-brake like the prototypes
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:01 PM ted  wrote:
>
>> New newer newest ...
>> Standard oversised ...
>> normal short long ...
>> Traditional ...
>>
>> All relative terms whose meanings morph and evolve and the use of
>> which may or may not make sense to one depending on how long you've been
>> paying attention.
>> From where I sit the waterford AHH and atlantis were the last of the
>> more "traditional" Riv designs, the break being 6 deg top tubes and more
>> limited sizing.
>> With the longer wheelbase MIT models its another leap from
>> "traditional".
>> Maybe it's because I grew up before mountain bikes, but to my eye
>> side/center pull brakes are traditional while cantilevers (not to 
>> mention V
>> brakes) are new fangled. Discs new fangleder yet.
>> But I think RBW would say they aren't about tradition but about
>> practical bikes and what works.
>>
>> There were side pull Roms and canti-Roms, there were side pull
>> Salukis and canti Salukis, there've been canti Sams and side pull Sams, 
>> the
>> SOs were going to be side pull but the builder used the wrong rear brake
>> bridge so they ended up canti. Prior to their recent embrace of V brakes
>> (and the slow march towards ever bigger and bigger tires) RBW seemed 
>> quite
>> agnostic wrt the whole canti vs side/center pull thing, and they went 
>> back
>> and forth quite a bit.
>>
>> I'm continually amazed at how strongly many folks feel about various
>> types of brakes. In my (admittedly somewhat limited) 

Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Sean B.]

Why do you think the chainstays on the Hillborne are shorter than the AHH? 
With the AHH being more of a roadish bike, I would imagine it would be 
opposite. 

On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 10:35:49 AM UTC-5 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:

> What I really like about Rivendell is that they do have a handful of 
> frames that will work for you no matter what...and that there are little 
> nuanced differences between Sam/Homer, Atlantis/Joe, etc... The differences 
> in sizing between the two helps cover all pbh sizes...I'm a touch over 
> 93cm, so a Homer (which I was planning on getting until recently) is tough 
> because I'd have more clearance than I need on a 61.5 , but might not have 
> enough clearance on a 64. The Sam's most recent run had a 62cm frame that 
> would be a perfect fit for me. Had I not just ordered an Atlantis the 
> Tuesday before they released the garage sale frames, I would have snagged 
> that 62cm orange Sam and would have got to keep using sidepull brakes. 
>
> I agree that having Sam and Homer offer different braking makes 
> sense...the Homer is less burly (according to Rivendell's catalog) so it 
> makes sense that it takes the more traditional roadie brakes. 
>
>
> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 10:07:05 AM UTC-5 ted wrote:
>
>> I'll guess the Sam has gone back to being canti because the Homer is now 
>> MIT also. Now costs are similar (same?), both have 6 deg top tubes, etc. 
>> May as well make the brakes different.
>> I think choosing between a new Sam or Homer based on brake style 
>> preference would make a lot of sense.
>> Of course I also think choosing based on preferred color, head badge, or 
>> name would make a lot of sense too.
>>
>> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:56:14 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
>>> How the canti-Sam became a sidepull-Sam early on involves a guess on my 
>>> part based on more arcane Riv knowledge than I should probably admit to 
>>> harboring:
>>>
>>> Originally the Sam showed up as a canti MIT version of the 
>>> Toyo/Waterford Saluki/Homer caliper bike. I believe the caliper Ram was 
>>> still around at this time, too, so Riv was all full up on caliper road 
>>> bikes. Later the Ram went away and Homer kept getting more expensive so Sam 
>>> morphed into the caliper road/country "standard" Rivbike. Now things are 
>>> all different and I won't try to figure out why it's canti again, I've been 
>>> arcane enough!
>>>
>>> Joe "he knows too much, yet is so little help" Bernard 
>>>
>>> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:10:37 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote:
>>>
 From an engineering perspective, what I appreciate about side-pull 
 brakes is that all the clamping forces are contained within the brake 
 itself, ie it does not exert any bending force on the fork/frame like a 
 canti or v-brake does. Even the braking force goes to the crown of the 
 fork 
 rather than the blades, so the fork blades can focus on other things. That 
 said, the tire clearance limitation is a problem if you like anything 
 bigger than a 42c. 

 Reminds me - James told me via email that the Charlie H Gallop is going 
 to be side-pull rather than v-brake like the prototypes



 On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:01 PM ted  wrote:

> New newer newest ...
> Standard oversised ...
> normal short long ...
> Traditional ...
>
> All relative terms whose meanings morph and evolve and the use of 
> which may or may not make sense to one depending on how long you've been 
> paying attention.
> From where I sit the waterford AHH and atlantis were the last of the 
> more "traditional" Riv designs, the break being 6 deg top tubes and more 
> limited sizing.
> With the longer wheelbase MIT models its another leap from 
> "traditional".
> Maybe it's because I grew up before mountain bikes, but to my eye 
> side/center pull brakes are traditional while cantilevers (not to mention 
> V 
> brakes) are new fangled. Discs new fangleder yet.
> But I think RBW would say they aren't about tradition but about 
> practical bikes and what works.
>
> There were side pull Roms and canti-Roms, there were side pull Salukis 
> and canti Salukis, there've been canti Sams and side pull Sams, the SOs 
> were going to be side pull but the builder used the wrong rear brake 
> bridge 
> so they ended up canti. Prior to their recent embrace of V brakes (and 
> the 
> slow march towards ever bigger and bigger tires) RBW seemed quite 
> agnostic 
> wrt the whole canti vs side/center pull thing, and they went back and 
> forth 
> quite a bit.
>
> I'm continually amazed at how strongly many folks feel about various 
> types of brakes. In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience they all 
> can work fine. That said, I find side/center pull calipers the easiest 
> and 
> least fidly to set up. If they 

Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Ben Mihovk]

What I really like about Rivendell is that they do have a handful of frames 
that will work for you no matter what...and that there are little nuanced 
differences between Sam/Homer, Atlantis/Joe, etc... The differences in 
sizing between the two helps cover all pbh sizes...I'm a touch over 93cm, 
so a Homer (which I was planning on getting until recently) is tough 
because I'd have more clearance than I need on a 61.5 , but might not have 
enough clearance on a 64. The Sam's most recent run had a 62cm frame that 
would be a perfect fit for me. Had I not just ordered an Atlantis the 
Tuesday before they released the garage sale frames, I would have snagged 
that 62cm orange Sam and would have got to keep using sidepull brakes. 

I agree that having Sam and Homer offer different braking makes sense...the 
Homer is less burly (according to Rivendell's catalog) so it makes sense 
that it takes the more traditional roadie brakes. 


On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 10:07:05 AM UTC-5 ted wrote:

> I'll guess the Sam has gone back to being canti because the Homer is now 
> MIT also. Now costs are similar (same?), both have 6 deg top tubes, etc. 
> May as well make the brakes different.
> I think choosing between a new Sam or Homer based on brake style 
> preference would make a lot of sense.
> Of course I also think choosing based on preferred color, head badge, or 
> name would make a lot of sense too.
>
> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:56:14 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> How the canti-Sam became a sidepull-Sam early on involves a guess on my 
>> part based on more arcane Riv knowledge than I should probably admit to 
>> harboring:
>>
>> Originally the Sam showed up as a canti MIT version of the Toyo/Waterford 
>> Saluki/Homer caliper bike. I believe the caliper Ram was still around at 
>> this time, too, so Riv was all full up on caliper road bikes. Later the Ram 
>> went away and Homer kept getting more expensive so Sam morphed into the 
>> caliper road/country "standard" Rivbike. Now things are all different and I 
>> won't try to figure out why it's canti again, I've been arcane enough!
>>
>> Joe "he knows too much, yet is so little help" Bernard 
>>
>> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:10:37 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote:
>>
>>> From an engineering perspective, what I appreciate about side-pull 
>>> brakes is that all the clamping forces are contained within the brake 
>>> itself, ie it does not exert any bending force on the fork/frame like a 
>>> canti or v-brake does. Even the braking force goes to the crown of the fork 
>>> rather than the blades, so the fork blades can focus on other things. That 
>>> said, the tire clearance limitation is a problem if you like anything 
>>> bigger than a 42c. 
>>>
>>> Reminds me - James told me via email that the Charlie H Gallop is going 
>>> to be side-pull rather than v-brake like the prototypes
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:01 PM ted  wrote:
>>>
 New newer newest ...
 Standard oversised ...
 normal short long ...
 Traditional ...

 All relative terms whose meanings morph and evolve and the use of which 
 may or may not make sense to one depending on how long you've been paying 
 attention.
 From where I sit the waterford AHH and atlantis were the last of the 
 more "traditional" Riv designs, the break being 6 deg top tubes and more 
 limited sizing.
 With the longer wheelbase MIT models its another leap from 
 "traditional".
 Maybe it's because I grew up before mountain bikes, but to my eye 
 side/center pull brakes are traditional while cantilevers (not to mention 
 V 
 brakes) are new fangled. Discs new fangleder yet.
 But I think RBW would say they aren't about tradition but about 
 practical bikes and what works.

 There were side pull Roms and canti-Roms, there were side pull Salukis 
 and canti Salukis, there've been canti Sams and side pull Sams, the SOs 
 were going to be side pull but the builder used the wrong rear brake 
 bridge 
 so they ended up canti. Prior to their recent embrace of V brakes (and the 
 slow march towards ever bigger and bigger tires) RBW seemed quite agnostic 
 wrt the whole canti vs side/center pull thing, and they went back and 
 forth 
 quite a bit.

 I'm continually amazed at how strongly many folks feel about various 
 types of brakes. In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience they all 
 can work fine. That said, I find side/center pull calipers the easiest and 
 least fidly to set up. If they (side/center pull) yield sufficient 
 clearance I don't see a strong argument against them.
 I'm glad you got the bike you want, I'm also glad my wife's Sam has 
 dual pivot brakes. 


 On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 5:20:59 PM UTC-7, Nathan F wrote:
>
> This change baffled me too, when I was buying my 2018 (in 2019, the 
> last one Rivelo 

Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[ted]

I'll guess the Sam has gone back to being canti because the Homer is now 
MIT also. Now costs are similar (same?), both have 6 deg top tubes, etc. 
May as well make the brakes different.
I think choosing between a new Sam or Homer based on brake style preference 
would make a lot of sense.
Of course I also think choosing based on preferred color, head badge, or 
name would make a lot of sense too.

On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:56:14 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> How the canti-Sam became a sidepull-Sam early on involves a guess on my 
> part based on more arcane Riv knowledge than I should probably admit to 
> harboring:
>
> Originally the Sam showed up as a canti MIT version of the Toyo/Waterford 
> Saluki/Homer caliper bike. I believe the caliper Ram was still around at 
> this time, too, so Riv was all full up on caliper road bikes. Later the Ram 
> went away and Homer kept getting more expensive so Sam morphed into the 
> caliper road/country "standard" Rivbike. Now things are all different and I 
> won't try to figure out why it's canti again, I've been arcane enough!
>
> Joe "he knows too much, yet is so little help" Bernard 
>
> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:10:37 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote:
>
>> From an engineering perspective, what I appreciate about side-pull brakes 
>> is that all the clamping forces are contained within the brake itself, ie 
>> it does not exert any bending force on the fork/frame like a canti or 
>> v-brake does. Even the braking force goes to the crown of the fork rather 
>> than the blades, so the fork blades can focus on other things. That said, 
>> the tire clearance limitation is a problem if you like anything bigger than 
>> a 42c. 
>>
>> Reminds me - James told me via email that the Charlie H Gallop is going 
>> to be side-pull rather than v-brake like the prototypes
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:01 PM ted  wrote:
>>
>>> New newer newest ...
>>> Standard oversised ...
>>> normal short long ...
>>> Traditional ...
>>>
>>> All relative terms whose meanings morph and evolve and the use of which 
>>> may or may not make sense to one depending on how long you've been paying 
>>> attention.
>>> From where I sit the waterford AHH and atlantis were the last of the 
>>> more "traditional" Riv designs, the break being 6 deg top tubes and more 
>>> limited sizing.
>>> With the longer wheelbase MIT models its another leap from "traditional".
>>> Maybe it's because I grew up before mountain bikes, but to my eye 
>>> side/center pull brakes are traditional while cantilevers (not to mention V 
>>> brakes) are new fangled. Discs new fangleder yet.
>>> But I think RBW would say they aren't about tradition but about 
>>> practical bikes and what works.
>>>
>>> There were side pull Roms and canti-Roms, there were side pull Salukis 
>>> and canti Salukis, there've been canti Sams and side pull Sams, the SOs 
>>> were going to be side pull but the builder used the wrong rear brake bridge 
>>> so they ended up canti. Prior to their recent embrace of V brakes (and the 
>>> slow march towards ever bigger and bigger tires) RBW seemed quite agnostic 
>>> wrt the whole canti vs side/center pull thing, and they went back and forth 
>>> quite a bit.
>>>
>>> I'm continually amazed at how strongly many folks feel about various 
>>> types of brakes. In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience they all 
>>> can work fine. That said, I find side/center pull calipers the easiest and 
>>> least fidly to set up. If they (side/center pull) yield sufficient 
>>> clearance I don't see a strong argument against them.
>>> I'm glad you got the bike you want, I'm also glad my wife's Sam has dual 
>>> pivot brakes. 
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 5:20:59 PM UTC-7, Nathan F wrote:

 This change baffled me too, when I was buying my 2018 (in 2019, the 
 last one Rivelo had) it was a huge deal for me. Glad to see another run of 
 them, in my eyes the Hillborne is the last holdout of the more 
 "traditional" Riv designs that ended a few years ago.

 On Saturday, 5 September 2020 16:12:03 UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> The original Sams had cantilever brakes; why did Rivendell switch to 
> calipers? It seems to me that the Sam is the sort of bike -- allroad or 
> country bike -- that obviously needs cantilevers (or V brakes; heck, for 
> that matter discs, if Rivendell used discs; just not calipers) for tire 
> and 
> fender clearance.
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 3:37 PM Joel  wrote:
>
>> The new ones are canti’s I think? Did Riv make other changes? 
>>
> -- 
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
> -- 
>>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
>>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this 

Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Eric Daume]

And for me, a side pull CHG kills it. Those long reach sidepulls are weak
and flexy. No thanks.

Eric
V brake fan

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 10:10 PM Jason Fuller  wrote:

> From an engineering perspective, what I appreciate about side-pull brakes
> is that all the clamping forces are contained within the brake itself, ie
> it does not exert any bending force on the fork/frame like a canti or
> v-brake does. Even the braking force goes to the crown of the fork rather
> than the blades, so the fork blades can focus on other things. That said,
> the tire clearance limitation is a problem if you like anything bigger than
> a 42c.
>
> Reminds me - James told me via email that the Charlie H Gallop is going to
> be side-pull rather than v-brake like the prototypes
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:01 PM ted  wrote:
>
>> New newer newest ...
>> Standard oversised ...
>> normal short long ...
>> Traditional ...
>>
>> All relative terms whose meanings morph and evolve and the use of which
>> may or may not make sense to one depending on how long you've been paying
>> attention.
>> From where I sit the waterford AHH and atlantis were the last of the more
>> "traditional" Riv designs, the break being 6 deg top tubes and more limited
>> sizing.
>> With the longer wheelbase MIT models its another leap from "traditional".
>> Maybe it's because I grew up before mountain bikes, but to my eye
>> side/center pull brakes are traditional while cantilevers (not to mention V
>> brakes) are new fangled. Discs new fangleder yet.
>> But I think RBW would say they aren't about tradition but about practical
>> bikes and what works.
>>
>> There were side pull Roms and canti-Roms, there were side pull Salukis
>> and canti Salukis, there've been canti Sams and side pull Sams, the SOs
>> were going to be side pull but the builder used the wrong rear brake bridge
>> so they ended up canti. Prior to their recent embrace of V brakes (and the
>> slow march towards ever bigger and bigger tires) RBW seemed quite agnostic
>> wrt the whole canti vs side/center pull thing, and they went back and forth
>> quite a bit.
>>
>> I'm continually amazed at how strongly many folks feel about various
>> types of brakes. In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience they all
>> can work fine. That said, I find side/center pull calipers the easiest and
>> least fidly to set up. If they (side/center pull) yield sufficient
>> clearance I don't see a strong argument against them.
>> I'm glad you got the bike you want, I'm also glad my wife's Sam has dual
>> pivot brakes.
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 5:20:59 PM UTC-7, Nathan F wrote:
>>>
>>> This change baffled me too, when I was buying my 2018 (in 2019, the last
>>> one Rivelo had) it was a huge deal for me. Glad to see another run of them,
>>> in my eyes the Hillborne is the last holdout of the more "traditional" Riv
>>> designs that ended a few years ago.
>>>
>>> On Saturday, 5 September 2020 16:12:03 UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 The original Sams had cantilever brakes; why did Rivendell switch to
 calipers? It seems to me that the Sam is the sort of bike -- allroad or
 country bike -- that obviously needs cantilevers (or V brakes; heck, for
 that matter discs, if Rivendell used discs; just not calipers) for tire and
 fender clearance.

 On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 3:37 PM Joel  wrote:

> The new ones are canti’s I think? Did Riv make other changes?
>
 --

 ---
 Patrick Moore
 Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

 --
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>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>> .
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>> To view this discussion on the web visit
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>> 
>> .
>>
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> 
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Owners 

Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Joe Bernard]

How the canti-Sam became a sidepull-Sam early on involves a guess on my 
part based on more arcane Riv knowledge than I should probably admit to 
harboring:

Originally the Sam showed up as a canti MIT version of the Toyo/Waterford 
Saluki/Homer caliper bike. I believe the caliper Ram was still around at 
this time, too, so Riv was all full up on caliper road bikes. Later the Ram 
went away and Homer kept getting more expensive so Sam morphed into the 
caliper road/country "standard" Rivbike. Now things are all different and I 
won't try to figure out why it's canti again, I've been arcane enough!

Joe "he knows too much, yet is so little help" Bernard 

On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:10:37 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote:

> From an engineering perspective, what I appreciate about side-pull brakes 
> is that all the clamping forces are contained within the brake itself, ie 
> it does not exert any bending force on the fork/frame like a canti or 
> v-brake does. Even the braking force goes to the crown of the fork rather 
> than the blades, so the fork blades can focus on other things. That said, 
> the tire clearance limitation is a problem if you like anything bigger than 
> a 42c. 
>
> Reminds me - James told me via email that the Charlie H Gallop is going to 
> be side-pull rather than v-brake like the prototypes
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:01 PM ted  wrote:
>
>> New newer newest ...
>> Standard oversised ...
>> normal short long ...
>> Traditional ...
>>
>> All relative terms whose meanings morph and evolve and the use of which 
>> may or may not make sense to one depending on how long you've been paying 
>> attention.
>> From where I sit the waterford AHH and atlantis were the last of the more 
>> "traditional" Riv designs, the break being 6 deg top tubes and more limited 
>> sizing.
>> With the longer wheelbase MIT models its another leap from "traditional".
>> Maybe it's because I grew up before mountain bikes, but to my eye 
>> side/center pull brakes are traditional while cantilevers (not to mention V 
>> brakes) are new fangled. Discs new fangleder yet.
>> But I think RBW would say they aren't about tradition but about practical 
>> bikes and what works.
>>
>> There were side pull Roms and canti-Roms, there were side pull Salukis 
>> and canti Salukis, there've been canti Sams and side pull Sams, the SOs 
>> were going to be side pull but the builder used the wrong rear brake bridge 
>> so they ended up canti. Prior to their recent embrace of V brakes (and the 
>> slow march towards ever bigger and bigger tires) RBW seemed quite agnostic 
>> wrt the whole canti vs side/center pull thing, and they went back and forth 
>> quite a bit.
>>
>> I'm continually amazed at how strongly many folks feel about various 
>> types of brakes. In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience they all 
>> can work fine. That said, I find side/center pull calipers the easiest and 
>> least fidly to set up. If they (side/center pull) yield sufficient 
>> clearance I don't see a strong argument against them.
>> I'm glad you got the bike you want, I'm also glad my wife's Sam has dual 
>> pivot brakes. 
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 5:20:59 PM UTC-7, Nathan F wrote:
>>>
>>> This change baffled me too, when I was buying my 2018 (in 2019, the last 
>>> one Rivelo had) it was a huge deal for me. Glad to see another run of them, 
>>> in my eyes the Hillborne is the last holdout of the more "traditional" Riv 
>>> designs that ended a few years ago.
>>>
>>> On Saturday, 5 September 2020 16:12:03 UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 The original Sams had cantilever brakes; why did Rivendell switch to 
 calipers? It seems to me that the Sam is the sort of bike -- allroad or 
 country bike -- that obviously needs cantilevers (or V brakes; heck, for 
 that matter discs, if Rivendell used discs; just not calipers) for tire 
 and 
 fender clearance.

 On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 3:37 PM Joel  wrote:

> The new ones are canti’s I think? Did Riv make other changes? 
>
 -- 

 ---
 Patrick Moore
 Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

 -- 
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/B3T9V-c81is/unsubscribe
>> .
>>
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 
>> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/5d8dd48e-e091-4366-a509-8a3c7cf68cc4o%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Jason Fuller]

>From an engineering perspective, what I appreciate about side-pull brakes
is that all the clamping forces are contained within the brake itself, ie
it does not exert any bending force on the fork/frame like a canti or
v-brake does. Even the braking force goes to the crown of the fork rather
than the blades, so the fork blades can focus on other things. That said,
the tire clearance limitation is a problem if you like anything bigger than
a 42c.

Reminds me - James told me via email that the Charlie H Gallop is going to
be side-pull rather than v-brake like the prototypes



On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:01 PM ted  wrote:

> New newer newest ...
> Standard oversised ...
> normal short long ...
> Traditional ...
>
> All relative terms whose meanings morph and evolve and the use of which
> may or may not make sense to one depending on how long you've been paying
> attention.
> From where I sit the waterford AHH and atlantis were the last of the more
> "traditional" Riv designs, the break being 6 deg top tubes and more limited
> sizing.
> With the longer wheelbase MIT models its another leap from "traditional".
> Maybe it's because I grew up before mountain bikes, but to my eye
> side/center pull brakes are traditional while cantilevers (not to mention V
> brakes) are new fangled. Discs new fangleder yet.
> But I think RBW would say they aren't about tradition but about practical
> bikes and what works.
>
> There were side pull Roms and canti-Roms, there were side pull Salukis and
> canti Salukis, there've been canti Sams and side pull Sams, the SOs were
> going to be side pull but the builder used the wrong rear brake bridge so
> they ended up canti. Prior to their recent embrace of V brakes (and the
> slow march towards ever bigger and bigger tires) RBW seemed quite agnostic
> wrt the whole canti vs side/center pull thing, and they went back and forth
> quite a bit.
>
> I'm continually amazed at how strongly many folks feel about various types
> of brakes. In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience they all can work
> fine. That said, I find side/center pull calipers the easiest and least
> fidly to set up. If they (side/center pull) yield sufficient clearance I
> don't see a strong argument against them.
> I'm glad you got the bike you want, I'm also glad my wife's Sam has dual
> pivot brakes.
>
>
> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 5:20:59 PM UTC-7, Nathan F wrote:
>>
>> This change baffled me too, when I was buying my 2018 (in 2019, the last
>> one Rivelo had) it was a huge deal for me. Glad to see another run of them,
>> in my eyes the Hillborne is the last holdout of the more "traditional" Riv
>> designs that ended a few years ago.
>>
>> On Saturday, 5 September 2020 16:12:03 UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>
>>> The original Sams had cantilever brakes; why did Rivendell switch to
>>> calipers? It seems to me that the Sam is the sort of bike -- allroad or
>>> country bike -- that obviously needs cantilevers (or V brakes; heck, for
>>> that matter discs, if Rivendell used discs; just not calipers) for tire and
>>> fender clearance.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 3:37 PM Joel  wrote:
>>>
 The new ones are canti’s I think? Did Riv make other changes?

>>> --
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Patrick Moore
>>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>>
>>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/B3T9V-c81is/unsubscribe
> .
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
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> To view this discussion on the web visit
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[ted]

New newer newest ...
Standard oversised ...
normal short long ...
Traditional ...

All relative terms whose meanings morph and evolve and the use of which may 
or may not make sense to one depending on how long you've been paying 
attention.
>From where I sit the waterford AHH and atlantis were the last of the more 
"traditional" Riv designs, the break being 6 deg top tubes and more limited 
sizing.
With the longer wheelbase MIT models its another leap from "traditional".
Maybe it's because I grew up before mountain bikes, but to my eye 
side/center pull brakes are traditional while cantilevers (not to mention V 
brakes) are new fangled. Discs new fangleder yet.
But I think RBW would say they aren't about tradition but about practical 
bikes and what works.

There were side pull Roms and canti-Roms, there were side pull Salukis and 
canti Salukis, there've been canti Sams and side pull Sams, the SOs were 
going to be side pull but the builder used the wrong rear brake bridge so 
they ended up canti. Prior to their recent embrace of V brakes (and the 
slow march towards ever bigger and bigger tires) RBW seemed quite agnostic 
wrt the whole canti vs side/center pull thing, and they went back and forth 
quite a bit.

I'm continually amazed at how strongly many folks feel about various types 
of brakes. In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience they all can work 
fine. That said, I find side/center pull calipers the easiest and least 
fidly to set up. If they (side/center pull) yield sufficient clearance I 
don't see a strong argument against them.
I'm glad you got the bike you want, I'm also glad my wife's Sam has dual 
pivot brakes. 


On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 5:20:59 PM UTC-7, Nathan F wrote:
>
> This change baffled me too, when I was buying my 2018 (in 2019, the last 
> one Rivelo had) it was a huge deal for me. Glad to see another run of them, 
> in my eyes the Hillborne is the last holdout of the more "traditional" Riv 
> designs that ended a few years ago.
>
> On Saturday, 5 September 2020 16:12:03 UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> The original Sams had cantilever brakes; why did Rivendell switch to 
>> calipers? It seems to me that the Sam is the sort of bike -- allroad or 
>> country bike -- that obviously needs cantilevers (or V brakes; heck, for 
>> that matter discs, if Rivendell used discs; just not calipers) for tire and 
>> fender clearance.
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 3:37 PM Joel  wrote:
>>
>>> The new ones are canti’s I think? Did Riv make other changes? 
>>>
>> -- 
>>
>> ---
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Nathan F]

This change baffled me too, when I was buying my 2018 (in 2019, the last 
one Rivelo had) it was a huge deal for me. Glad to see another run of them, 
in my eyes the Hillborne is the last holdout of the more "traditional" Riv 
designs that ended a few years ago.

On Saturday, 5 September 2020 16:12:03 UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> The original Sams had cantilever brakes; why did Rivendell switch to 
> calipers? It seems to me that the Sam is the sort of bike -- allroad or 
> country bike -- that obviously needs cantilevers (or V brakes; heck, for 
> that matter discs, if Rivendell used discs; just not calipers) for tire and 
> fender clearance.
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 3:37 PM Joel > 
> wrote:
>
>> The new ones are canti’s I think? Did Riv make other changes? 
>>
> -- 
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Joel Stern]

Typo, Homer.  Damn iPad.

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:12 PM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> The original Sams had cantilever brakes; why did Rivendell switch to
> calipers? It seems to me that the Sam is the sort of bike -- allroad or
> country bike -- that obviously needs cantilevers (or V brakes; heck, for
> that matter discs, if Rivendell used discs; just not calipers) for tire and
> fender clearance.
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 3:37 PM Joel  wrote:
>
>> The new ones are canti’s I think? Did Riv make other changes?
>>
> --
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Joel Stern]

The current ones use cantilevers, the Hoper uses dude pulls.

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:12 PM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> The original Sams had cantilever brakes; why did Rivendell switch to
> calipers? It seems to me that the Sam is the sort of bike -- allroad or
> country bike -- that obviously needs cantilevers (or V brakes; heck, for
> that matter discs, if Rivendell used discs; just not calipers) for tire and
> fender clearance.
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 3:37 PM Joel  wrote:
>
>> The new ones are canti’s I think? Did Riv make other changes?
>>
> --
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Patrick Moore]

The original Sams had cantilever brakes; why did Rivendell switch to
calipers? It seems to me that the Sam is the sort of bike -- allroad or
country bike -- that obviously needs cantilevers (or V brakes; heck, for
that matter discs, if Rivendell used discs; just not calipers) for tire and
fender clearance.

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 3:37 PM Joel  wrote:

> The new ones are canti’s I think? Did Riv make other changes?
>
-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Joel]

The new ones are canti’s I think? Did Riv make other changes? 

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 11:54:48 PM UTC-4, Nathan Mattia wrote:
>
> My 51cm Sidepull Samwise is PERFECT for my 80 PBH and 5’9” height, 
> especially when set up with Albatross bars.  Best fitting bike I’ve ever 
> had.
>
>
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 7:01:28 PM UTC-5, Joel wrote:
>>
>>
>> I like the Sam H a lot, if I do decide to sell the Bleriot I would want a 
>> Sam because from all I have gathered it would be a great fit in 51cm for 
>> me.  The Homer May be a tad taller from I information I have gathered from 
>> a forum member.  Also, nice to have one with a shorter chainstays as well.  
>>
>> All great bikes though.  
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 5:51 PM Jason Fuller  wrote:
>>
>>> I do sometimes wonder if I shouldn't have went with the Homer for the 
>>> lighter tubing, but the Sam is by no means sluggish or heavy feeling for 
>>> having the stouter tubes of the two. I have mine built up pretty 
>>> lightweight (for what it is), it's around 27 lbs with accessories but no 
>>> bags. I came off a very light tubing bike, the Soma Grand Rando, and the 
>>> Hillborne doesn't feel much slower to be honest, if at all!  It's 
>>> definitely smoother, which is surprising given the stronger tubing. I think 
>>> the geo just puts me in the perfect place between the wheels. 
>>>
>>> I do long distance road rides on the Hillborne and while it might do me 
>>> well to have a bit of a lighter tubed bike in those cases, it's really nice 
>>> to be able to also strap a bunch of weight to the same bike (or ride rough 
>>> roads and trails) without worry!  I do these rides with people on full road 
>>> bikes sometimes and I don't feel the bike holds me back more than maybe 
>>> 3%.  
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>>
>>>
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>>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Nathan Mattia]

My 51cm Sidepull Samwise is PERFECT for my 80 PBH and 5’9” height, 
especially when set up with Albatross bars.  Best fitting bike I’ve ever 
had.


On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 7:01:28 PM UTC-5, Joel wrote:
>
>
> I like the Sam H a lot, if I do decide to sell the Bleriot I would want a 
> Sam because from all I have gathered it would be a great fit in 51cm for 
> me.  The Homer May be a tad taller from I information I have gathered from 
> a forum member.  Also, nice to have one with a shorter chainstays as well.  
>
> All great bikes though.  
>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 5:51 PM Jason Fuller  > wrote:
>
>> I do sometimes wonder if I shouldn't have went with the Homer for the 
>> lighter tubing, but the Sam is by no means sluggish or heavy feeling for 
>> having the stouter tubes of the two. I have mine built up pretty 
>> lightweight (for what it is), it's around 27 lbs with accessories but no 
>> bags. I came off a very light tubing bike, the Soma Grand Rando, and the 
>> Hillborne doesn't feel much slower to be honest, if at all!  It's 
>> definitely smoother, which is surprising given the stronger tubing. I think 
>> the geo just puts me in the perfect place between the wheels. 
>>
>> I do long distance road rides on the Hillborne and while it might do me 
>> well to have a bit of a lighter tubed bike in those cases, it's really nice 
>> to be able to also strap a bunch of weight to the same bike (or ride rough 
>> roads and trails) without worry!  I do these rides with people on full road 
>> bikes sometimes and I don't feel the bike holds me back more than maybe 
>> 3%.  
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>>
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>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com .
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/158b8e56-d06a-493b-902b-c5edb759a8c5n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>
>> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Joel Stern]

I like the Sam H a lot, if I do decide to sell the Bleriot I would want a
Sam because from all I have gathered it would be a great fit in 51cm for
me.  The Homer May be a tad taller from I information I have gathered from
a forum member.  Also, nice to have one with a shorter chainstays as well.

All great bikes though.

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 5:51 PM Jason Fuller  wrote:

> I do sometimes wonder if I shouldn't have went with the Homer for the
> lighter tubing, but the Sam is by no means sluggish or heavy feeling for
> having the stouter tubes of the two. I have mine built up pretty
> lightweight (for what it is), it's around 27 lbs with accessories but no
> bags. I came off a very light tubing bike, the Soma Grand Rando, and the
> Hillborne doesn't feel much slower to be honest, if at all!  It's
> definitely smoother, which is surprising given the stronger tubing. I think
> the geo just puts me in the perfect place between the wheels.
>
> I do long distance road rides on the Hillborne and while it might do me
> well to have a bit of a lighter tubed bike in those cases, it's really nice
> to be able to also strap a bunch of weight to the same bike (or ride rough
> roads and trails) without worry!  I do these rides with people on full road
> bikes sometimes and I don't feel the bike holds me back more than maybe
> 3%.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
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> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Jason Fuller]

I do sometimes wonder if I shouldn't have went with the Homer for the 
lighter tubing, but the Sam is by no means sluggish or heavy feeling for 
having the stouter tubes of the two. I have mine built up pretty 
lightweight (for what it is), it's around 27 lbs with accessories but no 
bags. I came off a very light tubing bike, the Soma Grand Rando, and the 
Hillborne doesn't feel much slower to be honest, if at all!  It's 
definitely smoother, which is surprising given the stronger tubing. I think 
the geo just puts me in the perfect place between the wheels. 

I do long distance road rides on the Hillborne and while it might do me 
well to have a bit of a lighter tubed bike in those cases, it's really nice 
to be able to also strap a bunch of weight to the same bike (or ride rough 
roads and trails) without worry!  I do these rides with people on full road 
bikes sometimes and I don't feel the bike holds me back more than maybe 
3%.  


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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Joel Stern]

Rich, speed is not important, I want the most stable and comfortable ride
with a bike that fits the best.  You have given me great info, thanks. Ride
report on the Atlantis should be later today.

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:39 AM R Shannon  wrote:

> Joel,
>
> I’ve not verified this with the Riv folks but the weight difference
> between the two seems like it would be in the tubing. My Homer and Sam have
> identical setups but Homer is two pounds lighter (says a bathroom scale).
> It also feels a touch lighter just lifting it and ditto for the ride.
>
> From the last Riv catalog:
> “Sam is a hair stouter, so we give it more burly points than Homer, but
> the Sam and Homer are 95 percent functional clones. . .”
>
> Also this: “If you want speed on the road with versatility to tour or ride
> dirt now and then, the A. Homer Hilsen is ideal.”
>
> Hope this info helps with your decision. Pics or any other questions feel
> free to ask.
>
> Best,
> Rich in ATL
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 3, 2020, at 11:17 AM, Dorothy C  wrote:
>
> Different brake styles would be the main thing, now that Sams are V brake
>
>
>
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 7:05:38 AM UTC-7 Joel wrote:
>
>> Old thread, I wonder if now since both are MIT and both now have the same
>> TT slope if the opinions expressed hold.  Also I don’t know if the tubing
>> is now the same.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 9:39:25 PM UTC-4, Paul Choi wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm new to Rivendell bikes and to this forum. I'm considering a SH or
>>> AHH. This would be a all-around bike that used for commuting, light touring
>>> and some occasional off road riding. These bikes seem similar.
>>>
>>> Can you tell me the differences of these two bikes?
>>>
>>> For those of you that have both - your feedback would be really
>>> appreciated.
>>>
>>> Paul in Santa Clara, CA.
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Joel Stern]

Dorothy, I did see that, I could take almost every part from the Bleriot
and use them on the Homer but on the Sam I would need new brakes.  Not a
big deal but I do like those side pulls.

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 11:17 AM Dorothy C  wrote:

> Different brake styles would be the main thing, now that Sams are V brake
>
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 7:05:38 AM UTC-7 Joel wrote:
>
>> Old thread, I wonder if now since both are MIT and both now have the same
>> TT slope if the opinions expressed hold.  Also I don’t know if the tubing
>> is now the same.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 9:39:25 PM UTC-4, Paul Choi wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm new to Rivendell bikes and to this forum. I'm considering a SH or
>>> AHH. This would be a all-around bike that used for commuting, light touring
>>> and some occasional off road riding. These bikes seem similar.
>>>
>>> Can you tell me the differences of these two bikes?
>>>
>>> For those of you that have both - your feedback would be really
>>> appreciated.
>>>
>>> Paul in Santa Clara, CA.
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Roberta]

I just replied to Joel's other thread and I think this is exactly what I 
was feeling between the two bikes.   Love the lively ride of the AHH.

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 11:39:52 AM UTC-4, RichS wrote:
>
> Joel,
>
> I’ve not verified this with the Riv folks but the weight difference 
> between the two seems like it would be in the tubing. My Homer and Sam have 
> identical setups but Homer is two pounds lighter (says a bathroom scale). 
> It also feels a touch lighter just lifting it and ditto for the ride.
>
> From the last Riv catalog:
> “Sam is a hair stouter, so we give it more burly points than Homer, but 
> the Sam and Homer are 95 percent functional clones. . .”
>
> Also this: “If you want speed on the road with versatility to tour or ride 
> dirt now and then, the A. Homer Hilsen is ideal.”
>
> Hope this info helps with your decision. Pics or any other questions feel 
> free to ask.
>
> Best,
> Rich in ATL
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 3, 2020, at 11:17 AM, Dorothy C > 
> wrote:
>
> Different brake styles would be the main thing, now that Sams are V brake 
>
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 7:05:38 AM UTC-7 Joel wrote:
>
>> Old thread, I wonder if now since both are MIT and both now have the same 
>> TT slope if the opinions expressed hold.  Also I don’t know if the tubing 
>> is now the same.  
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 9:39:25 PM UTC-4, Paul Choi wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm new to Rivendell bikes and to this forum. I'm considering a SH or 
>>> AHH. This would be a all-around bike that used for commuting, light touring 
>>> and some occasional off road riding. These bikes seem similar. 
>>>
>>> Can you tell me the differences of these two bikes?
>>>
>>> For those of you that have both - your feedback would be really 
>>> appreciated. 
>>>
>>> Paul in Santa Clara, CA.
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Joel]

Thanks Erik, I looked at the geometry charts as well. I was also given some 
good info regarding the 2 in standover height, both 51cm with 38cm tires. 

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 12:16:06 PM UTC-4, Erik Wright wrote:
>
> A couple notes after watching Russ's review at Path Less Pedaled, too:
>
>1. He notes 45.5cm chainstays. He rides the 650b version, which (according 
>to this geometry chart 
>) 
>could mean that the geo of the new batch of Sams might not be much of a 
>diversion from the last batch. 700c has 46.5cm chainstays.
>   1. Unless, of course, he reviewed a Sam from the last batch 
>   that Riv still had in stock.
>2. According to that same geo chart, A. Homer Hilsen has 47.5cm 
>chainstays in the 650b sizes, and up to 49cm and 53cm in the big ol' sizes.
>
> Therefore, chainstay length + brake choice + tubing(???) might make the 
> two bikes a smidge more different than each other. Basically going from 95% 
> the same bike to 90% the same bike.
>
> That's the nerdiest I've gotten about bikes in a while.
>
> Erik, Philly
>
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 11:39:52 AM UTC-4, RichS wrote:
>>
>> Joel,
>>
>> I’ve not verified this with the Riv folks but the weight difference 
>> between the two seems like it would be in the tubing. My Homer and Sam have 
>> identical setups but Homer is two pounds lighter (says a bathroom scale). 
>> It also feels a touch lighter just lifting it and ditto for the ride.
>>
>> From the last Riv catalog:
>> “Sam is a hair stouter, so we give it more burly points than Homer, but 
>> the Sam and Homer are 95 percent functional clones. . .”
>>
>> Also this: “If you want speed on the road with versatility to tour or 
>> ride dirt now and then, the A. Homer Hilsen is ideal.”
>>
>> Hope this info helps with your decision. Pics or any other questions feel 
>> free to ask.
>>
>> Best,
>> Rich in ATL
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Sep 3, 2020, at 11:17 AM, Dorothy C  wrote:
>>
>> Different brake styles would be the main thing, now that Sams are V 
>> brake 
>>
>> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 7:05:38 AM UTC-7 Joel wrote:
>>
>>> Old thread, I wonder if now since both are MIT and both now have the 
>>> same TT slope if the opinions expressed hold.  Also I don’t know if the 
>>> tubing is now the same.  
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 9:39:25 PM UTC-4, Paul Choi wrote:

 I'm new to Rivendell bikes and to this forum. I'm considering a SH or 
 AHH. This would be a all-around bike that used for commuting, light 
 touring 
 and some occasional off road riding. These bikes seem similar. 

 Can you tell me the differences of these two bikes?

 For those of you that have both - your feedback would be really 
 appreciated. 

 Paul in Santa Clara, CA.

>>> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Erik Wright]

A couple notes after watching Russ's review at Path Less Pedaled, too:

   1. He notes 45.5cm chainstays. He rides the 650b version, which (according 
   to this geometry chart 
   ) 
   could mean that the geo of the new batch of Sams might not be much of a 
   diversion from the last batch. 700c has 46.5cm chainstays.
  1. Unless, of course, he reviewed a Sam from the last batch that 
  Riv still had in stock.
   2. According to that same geo chart, A. Homer Hilsen has 47.5cm 
   chainstays in the 650b sizes, and up to 49cm and 53cm in the big ol' sizes.

Therefore, chainstay length + brake choice + tubing(???) might make the two 
bikes a smidge more different than each other. Basically going from 95% the 
same bike to 90% the same bike.

That's the nerdiest I've gotten about bikes in a while.

Erik, Philly

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 11:39:52 AM UTC-4, RichS wrote:
>
> Joel,
>
> I’ve not verified this with the Riv folks but the weight difference 
> between the two seems like it would be in the tubing. My Homer and Sam have 
> identical setups but Homer is two pounds lighter (says a bathroom scale). 
> It also feels a touch lighter just lifting it and ditto for the ride.
>
> From the last Riv catalog:
> “Sam is a hair stouter, so we give it more burly points than Homer, but 
> the Sam and Homer are 95 percent functional clones. . .”
>
> Also this: “If you want speed on the road with versatility to tour or ride 
> dirt now and then, the A. Homer Hilsen is ideal.”
>
> Hope this info helps with your decision. Pics or any other questions feel 
> free to ask.
>
> Best,
> Rich in ATL
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 3, 2020, at 11:17 AM, Dorothy C > 
> wrote:
>
> Different brake styles would be the main thing, now that Sams are V brake 
>
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 7:05:38 AM UTC-7 Joel wrote:
>
>> Old thread, I wonder if now since both are MIT and both now have the same 
>> TT slope if the opinions expressed hold.  Also I don’t know if the tubing 
>> is now the same.  
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 9:39:25 PM UTC-4, Paul Choi wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm new to Rivendell bikes and to this forum. I'm considering a SH or 
>>> AHH. This would be a all-around bike that used for commuting, light touring 
>>> and some occasional off road riding. These bikes seem similar. 
>>>
>>> Can you tell me the differences of these two bikes?
>>>
>>> For those of you that have both - your feedback would be really 
>>> appreciated. 
>>>
>>> Paul in Santa Clara, CA.
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[R Shannon]

Joel,

I’ve not verified this with the Riv folks but the weight difference between the 
two seems like it would be in the tubing. My Homer and Sam have identical 
setups but Homer is two pounds lighter (says a bathroom scale). It also feels a 
touch lighter just lifting it and ditto for the ride.

>From the last Riv catalog:
“Sam is a hair stouter, so we give it more burly points than Homer, but the Sam 
and Homer are 95 percent functional clones. . .”

Also this: “If you want speed on the road with versatility to tour or ride dirt 
now and then, the A. Homer Hilsen is ideal.”

Hope this info helps with your decision. Pics or any other questions feel free 
to ask.

Best,
Rich in ATL

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 3, 2020, at 11:17 AM, Dorothy C  wrote:
> 
> Different brake styles would be the main thing, now that Sams are V brake 
> 
>> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 7:05:38 AM UTC-7 Joel wrote:
>> Old thread, I wonder if now since both are MIT and both now have the same TT 
>> slope if the opinions expressed hold.  Also I don’t know if the tubing is 
>> now the same.  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 9:39:25 PM UTC-4, Paul Choi wrote:
>>> I'm new to Rivendell bikes and to this forum. I'm considering a SH or AHH. 
>>> This would be a all-around bike that used for commuting, light touring and 
>>> some occasional off road riding. These bikes seem similar. 
>>> 
>>> Can you tell me the differences of these two bikes?
>>> 
>>> For those of you that have both - your feedback would be really 
>>> appreciated. 
>>> 
>>> Paul in Santa Clara, CA.
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[R Shannon]

Paul,

Yes, do go to RivHQ and do some test rides. As others have noted, the overlap 
among the bikes is significant enough that the opportunity to ride the bikes 
will make your decision easier.

My Sam and Atlantis feel like they weigh about the same (both set up with racks 
and baskets).

There are some small differences in handling. Both delightful rides though. You 
may prefer one over the other so make that trip to Walnut Creek!

Best of luck and enjoy the ride(s),
Richard

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 16, 2017, at 11:47 PM, Ash [who works to bike]  
> wrote:
> 
> Hey Paul,
> 
> Since you are only an hour away from Riv HQ, it is definitely worth driving 
> up and test-riding.  
> 
> While you are there, be sure to ride an Appaloosa as well :)   When I visited 
> Riv the first time, I rode it just out of curiosity and I ended up going with 
> it instead of the bike I was there to learn about  (I liked it so much I 
> pre-ordered a 2017 frame and waited for 4 months).
> 
> Btw, if your size is 51cm and interested in trying out Appaloosa, I'm not too 
> far from you.  PM me and come by sometime during the weekend.
> 
> Ash
> 
>> On Friday, 11 August 2017 18:39:25 UTC-7, Paul Choi wrote:
>> I'm new to Rivendell bikes and to this forum. I'm considering a SH or AHH. 
>> This would be a all-around bike that used for commuting, light touring and 
>> some occasional off road riding. These bikes seem similar. 
>> 
>> Can you tell me the differences of these two bikes?
>> 
>> For those of you that have both - your feedback would be really appreciated. 
>> 
>> Paul in Santa Clara, CA.
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Michael Cinibulk]

I have a first gen canti Sam 60 cm single TT in Metallic green with gold 
decals. While it's a great loaded tourer it's a bit heavy for commuting and 
general unloaded riding. If the extra $$ is not an issue I would go with an AHH 
to avoid the overkill double TT and get the slightly lighter tube set. Also, 
regarding lighter wheels, here is some data. I just weighed my wheels without 
cassettes this weekend since I was overhauling my hubs. 9 spd XT hubs with A719 
rims are 2350 g a set. My 9 spd Campy Veloce hubs with Open Pro rims on my 
Waterford 1250 are 1900 g a set. So a delta of 1 lb. I expected it to be more. 

Mike C
Bellbrook OH

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Paul Choi]

I would love to see some pictures of your Sam's if you guys are willing to 
post them. 

I rode a 51 Sam on Saturday at Silva in Campbell and really think this is 
what I want. It was a blue/green color. I have my heart set on a blue color 
or black. 
Now I just wait for a used one on the list or wait for a new one from RBW 
in October. I heard that they might make some in black is this shipment?

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 9:14:43 AM UTC-7, RichS wrote:
>
> My sage green Sam is plenty fast enough and cushy running Compass 38mm 
> Loup Loup Pass tires.
>
> Best regards,
> Richard
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[RichS]

My sage green Sam is plenty fast enough and cushy running Compass 38mm Loup 
Loup Pass tires.

Best regards,
Richard

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Ride a lot. Fartlek.

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 8:48:20 PM UTC-4, Jonathan D. wrote:
>
>  Any advice, beyond colors, to make the Sam a "go fast" bike?  
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Joe Bernard]

Orange IS fastest, but I'm too slow for it ;-)
A complete Sam with dropbars is set up well as a go-fast out the door. Those 
large rotating wheels are the first place to look if you want to drop some 
weight and spin-up faster. Rich @ Riv can hook you up with something along the 
lines of what Mark @ Riv uses on his road bikes. Mark is the speedy one around 
there. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Jonathan D.]

I've heard orange is the fastest color. I hope so because getting a Sam next 
week from the list. AHH is not in the cards and I have a Joe. Any advice, 
beyond colors, to make the Sam a "go fast" bike?  This will be my faster bike 
with racks but not setup for kids. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Joe Bernard]

Color counts for a lot, too. I don't care for the current orange, and not much 
for the grey/blue a lot of them came with, either. I liked the older Porsche 
green, and the sage hue. I heard they're doing some black ones again 
soon..that's a lovely bike. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Justin, Oakland]

The Hilsen will be a perfect fit for you. I use my Saluki like you describe 
often. 
So will the Hillborne.

I would find out which one would let you get your bars where you want them and 
the tires that you want and the price that you want. 

-Justin

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Joe Bernard]

I'm not sure it's useful to reject an opinion about riding conditions with 
"nobody knows" and "being being" (I don't know what that means). Most of the 
folks on this forum have a lot of experience with different rides on different 
bikes, and I would agree that grocery shopping is not the same as multi-day 
rough road/dirt touring. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Garth]

  On the surface I may agree with you.  However, I can find no source of 
such an assumption.  There are endless "depends", which is another way of 
saying "I don't know" , nor does anyone else, there is no detailed to the 
core Absolute "manual of existence".  

   There is really is no substitute for real time here and now present, 
riding, "being being" .  I can say in all the times in my life when I am 
immersed in something I really enjoy , the circumstances around it just 
seem to all go well regardless of the details.  



On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 2:54:05 PM UTC-4, Steven Sweedler wrote:
>
> Patrick, not sure riding home with groceries will put the same stress on a 
> frame as touring on rough roads day after day
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Brian Campbell]

I have owned an AHH since 2011. I would get the AHH vs. the Sam. The AHH 
will do all your stated riding very well. I love the ride of mine and it 
replaced 9 other bikes. I don't miss them. I built mine with an emphasis on 
lighter weight and more roadish (per this list) style. That said, I can 
install a rear rack and have, in less than 5 minutes if I need it for 
commuting. I don't run a basket on the front because I don't like how the 
handling changes when any bike I have ridden has more than a pound or 
two.up front. 

IIRC correctly the Sam uses a slightly hevaier tubing set than the AHH. I 
like the lively feel of mine w/35mm tires. You will do well with either but 
I say you know you want the Hilsen...get it. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Steven Sweedler]

Patrick, not sure riding home with groceries will put the same stress on a
frame as touring on rough roads day after day
On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 6:26 PM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> I agree with Rich, Garth and Grant, but I will add: depending on the
> rider's weight, it is possible to carry heavy-ish loads on a thinner-tubed
> frame. I regularly carry heavy grocery loads on my Road Custom, and the
> very best rear loader of all the many, many bikes I've owned -- loads up to
> 45 lb in the rear, on a *stiff* rack (but it weighed only 11 oz!) was an
> early '70s, light tubed racing bike. No kidding.
>
> Instance 2: my recently acquired (May, 2016) "road bike for dirt" is built
> of road gauge, thinwall, heat treated True Temper road tubing. It's
> certainly more than stout enough. I'm 175 buck nekkid.
>
> So don't *necessarily* let tubing gauge and diameter dictate what frame
> you should use for loaded touring or off road riding.
>
> On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 9:12 AM, RichS  wrote:
>
>> At least a year or so ago Grant did a lengthy Sam write-up on the Blug
>> where he said he couldn't tell the difference between the SH and his AHH
>> when he rode them.
>>
>> Garth is right about fit. A bike that doesn't hit your sizing sweet spot
>> can be a source of discontent. Ask me how I know!
>>
>> I do have a Sam and it's a wonderfully versatile bike. I'm in the middle
>> of the size range for my 51 and the fit is spot on. It's also a fantastic
>> value for the money. Highly recommend it.
>>
>> Best,
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 9:39:25 PM UTC-4, Paul Choi wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm new to Rivendell bikes and to this forum. I'm considering a SH or
>>> AHH. This would be a all-around bike that used for commuting, light touring
>>> and some occasional off road riding. These bikes seem similar.
>>>
>>> Can you tell me the differences of these two bikes?
>>>
>>> For those of you that have both - your feedback would be really
>>> appreciated.
>>>
>>> Paul in Santa Clara, CA.
>>>
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>
>
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[drew]

Former Sam owner. It can do everything you intend to do with it. In the 2 top 
tube version, it rode a lot like my 83 specialized expedition touring bike. I 
easily was able to fit 50mm tires, and with Paul racers it stopped as well as 
any of my canti bikes. I don't know if the clearances are maybe a bit tighter 
on an ahh. I think of the 2 as basically the same but one is made in the USA 
and slightly more classic looks. Can't go wrong either way. As someone willing 
to wait the 8 months for an Atlantis,  I understand the desire for made in the 
USA and classic looks though. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Patrick Moore]

I agree with Rich, Garth and Grant, but I will add: depending on the
rider's weight, it is possible to carry heavy-ish loads on a thinner-tubed
frame. I regularly carry heavy grocery loads on my Road Custom, and the
very best rear loader of all the many, many bikes I've owned -- loads up to
45 lb in the rear, on a *stiff* rack (but it weighed only 11 oz!) was an
early '70s, light tubed racing bike. No kidding.

Instance 2: my recently acquired (May, 2016) "road bike for dirt" is built
of road gauge, thinwall, heat treated True Temper road tubing. It's
certainly more than stout enough. I'm 175 buck nekkid.

So don't *necessarily* let tubing gauge and diameter dictate what frame you
should use for loaded touring or off road riding.

On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 9:12 AM, RichS  wrote:

> At least a year or so ago Grant did a lengthy Sam write-up on the Blug
> where he said he couldn't tell the difference between the SH and his AHH
> when he rode them.
>
> Garth is right about fit. A bike that doesn't hit your sizing sweet spot
> can be a source of discontent. Ask me how I know!
>
> I do have a Sam and it's a wonderfully versatile bike. I'm in the middle
> of the size range for my 51 and the fit is spot on. It's also a fantastic
> value for the money. Highly recommend it.
>
> Best,
> Richard
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 9:39:25 PM UTC-4, Paul Choi wrote:
>>
>> I'm new to Rivendell bikes and to this forum. I'm considering a SH or
>> AHH. This would be a all-around bike that used for commuting, light touring
>> and some occasional off road riding. These bikes seem similar.
>>
>> Can you tell me the differences of these two bikes?
>>
>> For those of you that have both - your feedback would be really
>> appreciated.
>>
>> Paul in Santa Clara, CA.
>>
> --
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



-- 
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By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
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www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
**
**
*Interested in trading resume, LinkedIn, and other writing work for
professional (professional) help with marketing and growing my resumes,
etc. business. Respondents should have considerable experience in helping
small, online businesses grow. Please contact me at
patrickmo...@resumespecialties.com .
Thanks.*

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