Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-04 Thread Steve Palincsar
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 22:28 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
 On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:
 
  On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 18:17 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:

  I get flak about it sometimes when I am out riding my All-Rounder
  with 26 wheels.
 
 
  I can't imagine why they'd care.  Can you even see that the wheels are
  unusual?   I've only really ever seen one Riv All-Arounder, I think  
  a 58
  cm, and it looks perfectly ordinary with nothing particular to note
  about the wheels other than some pretty fat looking tires.
 
  What do they say?  And what do you say in return?
 
 Jeez, what's with the little wheels?  Aren't those wheels awfully  
 slow?  Small wheels have higher rolling resistance.  Etc.
 
 I tell them this wheel is 14 years old and I've never had to true  
 it.  Then I pass them going down the next hill.
 

Interesting.  I've been on several rides with people riding Bike
Fridays, and I've never heard anybody make any comments other than
discussions of travel bikes, touring, high airline fees, etc. and I ride
my 650B bikes on many rides and nobody's ever said anything about a
smaller wheel size to me.  However, I've ridden an AM-series Moulton on
some rides and yes, there sure were plenty of comments about that!



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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-04 Thread Tim McNamara


On Feb 4, 2010, at 8:03 AM, Steve Palincsar wrote:


On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 22:28 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:

On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:


On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 18:17 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:



I get flak about it sometimes when I am out riding my All-Rounder
with 26 wheels.



I can't imagine why they'd care.  Can you even see that the  
wheels are

unusual?   I've only really ever seen one Riv All-Arounder, I think
a 58
cm, and it looks perfectly ordinary with nothing particular to note
about the wheels other than some pretty fat looking tires.

What do they say?  And what do you say in return?


Jeez, what's with the little wheels?  Aren't those wheels awfully
slow?  Small wheels have higher rolling resistance.  Etc.

I tell them this wheel is 14 years old and I've never had to true
it.  Then I pass them going down the next hill.


Interesting.  I've been on several rides with people riding Bike
Fridays, and I've never heard anybody make any comments other than
discussions of travel bikes, touring, high airline fees, etc. and I  
ride

my 650B bikes on many rides and nobody's ever said anything about a
smaller wheel size to me.  However, I've ridden an AM-series  
Moulton on

some rides and yes, there sure were plenty of comments about that!


Another interesting bit is that I only get comments if the fenders  
are off the A/R; with fenders on, no one seems to notice the smaller  
wheels.  And another factor is that I used to ride the A/R on racing  
club rides.  Most of the group rides I go on now are with people who  
get the Rivendell thing (and are often riding various Riv products  
themselves) so I don't get specious comments from them!


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RE: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-04 Thread Frederick, Steve

 On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 18:17 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:

 I get flak about it sometimes when I am out riding my All-Rounder
 with 26 wheels.



I've only had a couple of comments about my 26-wheeled XO-1.  One fellow 
commented on the long wheelbase, mistaking the roomy clearance for fat tires 
for axle to axle stretch, I think.  Another comment when I was jamming on a 
club ride that I was pretty fast on that thing.  It is a pretty lively bike 
with 1.5 Paselas!  I''ve never felt it was notably slow due to the small 
wheels, and they sure accelerate quick.  (also noted on my 26 Bianchi Milano 
fixed gear conversion commuter)

No one's ever noticed the wheelsize on my 650b Saluki--testament to the 
proportional appearance of 650bX38 wheels/tires on a 54cm frame, I think.  I 
have gotten a couple of comments on the fancy, bags on my Saluki and other 
Rivs, though.  B-)

Steve Frederick, East Lansing, MI

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-04 Thread PATRICK MOORE
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:03 AM, Frederick, Steve
frede...@mail.lib.msu.eduwrote:

my 26 Bianchi Milano fixed gear conversion commuter

May we see photos?

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RE: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-04 Thread Frederick, Steve
There's a couple on my flick'r page--it lost a lot of weight when I took off 
the Nexus IG/drum brake hubbed wheel!
 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40738...@n08/3763276193/
 
Those are cut down Nitto Promenade bars--pretty nice Scorcher style setup!  I 
have different bars on there now but no pics of the current setup...
 
Steve

-Original Message-
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com]on Behalf Of PATRICK MOORE
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:09 AM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..




On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:03 AM, Frederick, Steve  frede...@mail.lib.msu.edu 
wrote:

my 26 Bianchi Milano fixed gear conversion commuter

May we see photos?




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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-04 Thread PATRICK MOORE
Actually, Grant didn't start the thread.

But I think it is time for other entrail readings and that we should move on
to analyzing Grant's wardrobe or his deoderant or something. I don't like
his haircut. Anyone else care to chime in?

Christ! Let's all get ourselves lives!

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Rene valbu...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

 TCO is a problem to me which I have learned to live with with all the
 Rivendell models I have owned. But this does not leave me less
 sensitive to GP's choice of words on this matter either. I hope
 Rivendell Bicycle Works will put out a chart or a table indicating at
 what size(s) among their models is TCO not going to be a problem
 even with a size 12 feet or shoes. Or even a smaller size if 12 is a
 bigger average. Some may tell me that I should tell this directly to
 RBW. But I thought since GP started this subject on this forum, I can
 propose it here.

 -- Rene

 On Feb 3, 2:12 pm, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote:
  Anne and James:
 
  I will readily concede that TCO not being a concern to me left less
  sensitive to GP's choice of words.
 
  On Feb 3, 1:05 pm, Anne Paulson anne.paul...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 
   On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:48 AM, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com
 wrote:
Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers like
myself, recognize that TCO is an offense (however significant), and
deal with it proactively, either by eliminating it, or acknowledging
that it is a necessary evil (however significant) to be tolerated.
 
Isn't that what Grant says in his post?
 
   He said: TCO ends up being a problem---in my opinion---only in
   theoretics, but not in practice.
 
   For me, TCO is a problem in practice. I don't mind hearing that the
   desire for no TCO has to be balanced with other design considerations.
   I do mind hearing that what is an actual problem for me is not an
   actual problem for me.
 
   --
   -- Anne Paulson
 
   He who wills the ends wills the means- Hide quoted text -
 
  - Show quoted text -

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-04 Thread Rene Valbuena

I do have a life. that's why i don't reply to any all topics here;-) if grant did not start the thread, who did? isn't it if your name is on topof the topic or the first one, it is considered that you started the topic? -- rene
-Original Message- From: PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com>Sent: Feb 4, 2010 12:13 PM To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general.. Actually, Grant didn't start the thread.But I think it is time for other entrail readings and that we should move on to analyzing Grant's wardrobe or his deoderant or something. I don't like his haircut. Anyone else care to chime in? Christ! Let's all get ourselves lives!
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Rene valbu...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
TCO is a problem to me which I have learned to live with with all theRivendell models I have owned. But this does not leave me lesssensitive to GP's choice of words on this matter either. I hopeRivendell Bicycle Works will put out a chart or a table indicating atwhat size(s) among their models is TCO not going to be "a problem"even with a size 12 feet or shoes. Or even a smaller size if 12 is abigger average. Some may tell me that I should tell this directly toRBW. But I thought since GP started this subject on this forum, I canpropose it here.-- ReneOn Feb 3, 2:12pm, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Anne and James: I will readily concede that TCO not being a concern to me left less sensitive to GP's choice of words. On Feb 3, 1:05pm, Anne Paulson anne.paul...@gmail.com wrote:  On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:48 AM, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote:   Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers like   myself, recognize that TCO is an offense (however significant), and   deal with it proactively, either by eliminating it, or acknowledging   that it is a necessary evil (however significant) to be tolerated.   Isn't that what Grant says in his post?  He said: "TCO ends up being a problem---in my opinion---only in  theoretics, but not in practice."  For me, TCO is a problem in practice. I don't mind hearing that the  desire for no TCO has to be balanced with other design considerations.  I do mind hearing that what is an actual problem for me is not an  actual problem for me.  --  -- Anne Paulson  He who wills the ends wills the means- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text ---You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.-- Patrick MooreAlbuquerque, NMFor professional resumes, contactPatrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com(505) 227-0523
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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-04 Thread Robert F. Harrison
Actually I think this round of TCO discussion was started off with this
innocuous little query...

Subject: TCO on an Atlantis?
Morning query:  With BIG 50mm or larger tires on a 700c Atlantis, are
there TCO issues?
Enjoy a Sunday ride!
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA


Grant did start this particular thread in response to that thread which also
diverged into a thread about tire width side of things. So while he may have
started the thread, he did not start the topic, he was responding to it,
albeit using a different subject line.

Apparently I don't have anything better to do today than sort through old
email. :-)

And, if one really wanted to go back, I thinking one could claim this is all
just an extension of the 12/1/2007 (!) topic:

Not The Last Word on TCO ( http://goo.gl/SaGU )



One my QB (700c/35mm/fendered/big feet/no clips) I did experience a wee bit
of TCO (no consequences) the first day I rode it and, having noted it, have
never had a problem since then. At least on my bike it isn't particularly
hard to avoid, even at low speed.

Aloha! Bob



On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Rene Valbuena valbu...@ix.netcom.com
wrote:

 I do have a life. that's why i don't reply to any all topics here;-) if
grant did not start the thread, who did? isn't it if your name is on top of
the topic or the first one, it is considered that you started the topic? --
rene


 -Original Message-
 From: PATRICK MOORE
 Sent: Feb 4, 2010 12:13 PM
 To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

 Actually, Grant didn't start the thread.

 But I think it is time for other entrail readings and that we should move
on to analyzing Grant's wardrobe or his deoderant or something. I don't like
his haircut. Anyone else care to chime in?

 Christ! Let's all get ourselves lives!

 On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Rene valbu...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

 TCO is a problem to me which I have learned to live with with all the
 Rivendell models I have owned. But this does not leave me less
 sensitive to GP's choice of words on this matter either. I hope
 Rivendell Bicycle Works will put out a chart or a table indicating at
 what size(s) among their models is TCO not going to be a problem
 even with a size 12 feet or shoes. Or even a smaller size if 12 is a
 bigger average. Some may tell me that I should tell this directly to
 RBW. But I thought since GP started this subject on this forum, I can
 propose it here.

 -- Rene

 On Feb 3, 2:12 pm, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote:
  Anne and James:
 
  I will readily concede that TCO not being a concern to me left less
  sensitive to GP's choice of words.
 
  On Feb 3, 1:05 pm, Anne Paulson anne.paul...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 
   On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:48 AM, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com
wrote:
Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers
like
myself, recognize that TCO is an offense (however significant),
and
deal with it proactively, either by eliminating it, or
acknowledging
that it is a necessary evil (however significant) to be tolerated.
 
Isn't that what Grant says in his post?
 
   He said: TCO ends up being a problem---in my opinion---only in
   theoretics, but not in practice.
 
   For me, TCO is a problem in practice. I don't mind hearing that the
   desire for no TCO has to be balanced with other design
considerations.
   I do mind hearing that what is an actual problem for me is not an
   actual problem for me.
 
   --
   -- Anne Paulson
 
   He who wills the ends wills the means- Hide quoted text -
 
  - Show quoted text -

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-04 Thread james black
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:34, Brad Gantt brdg...@gmail.com wrote:
 This has gotten ridiculous. Grant's post ended with an expression of
 concern that he shouldn't have said anything. I imagine it might be a
 bit before he does again and I for one find that unfortunate.
 TCO is an offense? Honestly.

This is directed to Brad and Patrick: is there really a need to be so
condescending? You don't mind TCO, fine. Please don't insult those of
us who do.

James Black

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-04 Thread james black
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 11:42, james black chocot...@gmail.com wrote:
 This is directed to Brad and Patrick: is there really a need to be so
 condescending? You don't mind TCO, fine. Please don't insult those of
 us who do.

And by the way - I joined in this discussion not because it gives me
pleasure to fight with Grant Petersen, but because I think it's
important for him and others to be aware of the perspective of people
like myself (prospective customers).

James Black

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-04 Thread CycloFiend
on 2/4/10 8:28 AM, Rene at valbu...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

 TCO is a problem to me which I have learned to live with with all the
 Rivendell models I have owned. But this does not leave me less
 sensitive to GP's choice of words on this matter either. I hope
 Rivendell Bicycle Works will put out a chart or a table indicating at
 what size(s) among their models is TCO not going to be a problem
 even with a size 12 feet or shoes. Or even a smaller size if 12 is a
 bigger average. Some may tell me that I should tell this directly to
 RBW. But I thought since GP started this subject on this forum, I can
 propose it here.

I think GP's post was a new thread to comment about a previous thread.
Nevertheless, I do want to remind folks that if they want to communicate
with Rivendell on any subject, the best way if directly. (Or cc them on the
email with a note explaining why.) This list is an off-site get together.

Back on this subject, to paraphrase and engage in conjecture, I think Rene's
post above gets at the crux of the issue - the significant number of
variables in what seems a simple question.

A frame that has no TCO for a rider with size 10 feet may cause problems if
you are a size 12.  If I use a clip-in pedal system, with cleats under the
ball of my feet, that's going to be different than if I use platforms and
pedal with a mid-foot-centered position.  Large soled shoes?  Fitted shoes?
Do I make low course corrections more with body english or tiller input?

Clearly, for those folks to whom this is an issue, there must be a way to
quantify it. 

You could probably measure the BB to front axle distance, and see if there
was a consistency in what size caused the issue. The variables would be
wheel size, tire size, fender standoff (gap from tire), fender thickness,
shoe size (literally, the materal thickness at the toe), foot position with
relation to pedal spindle (i.e. how much meat is in front of the spindle,
though you can really just combine those two variables into one), and crank
length. But, all of those would run on the basic dimension of bb to front
axle. 

So, I get all charged up and measure this out on the Quickbeam, a 58 cm
frame which seems to have about a 610 mm bb-front axle measurement. The
distance from the axle to the outside of the fender is 362 mm, the cranks
are 170 mm and the foot protrusion is 100 mm. Which would mean that the
overlap is ~22 mm. 

Except it isn't. I don't have any issues on that bike.

And then it dawns on me that the whole thing has a 2nd dimension which
involves (a) the arc of the front wheel and (b) the offset of foot position
from the centerline of the bike (determined by bb spindle length, crank
tread width, length of pedal spindles, and the inboard/outboard position
of the foot on the pedal itself.)

So, if I pedal with toes pointed in, using a narrow Q crankset on the
shortest possible bb spindle, it's going to be different than toes out, wide
cranks and longer bb spindle.

And that, my friends, gets quickly beyond any math I can quickly do in my
head on a lunch break.

Dang.

- Jim humbled by numbers once again...


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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-04 Thread james black
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 12:00, Brad Gantt brdg...@gmail.com wrote:
 I will admit that I simply do not understand the sentiment that
 TCO is an offense. I believe that word choice is inflammatory and
 honestly insulting to the designers and builders of these bicycles. I
 also admit that I cannot understand the heated reaction to Grant's
 post. As always, we have options when we purchase bicycles. If a
 particular builder is committing an offense by designing bicycles
 the way they believe best, perhaps we should look elsewhere.

Sorry, I used the word offense and didn't mean it to be inflammatory
- I mean it in the same sense that I would use the word offensive to
describe a lingering bad odor in a room I just entered. I consider TCO
an annoyance, and fairly mild, but it would annoy me on a continuing
basis if I had to deal with it.

And I agree, all customers should consider how important TCO is to
them when selecting a bike. That's why I wanted this perspective given
proper consideration by Grant and others in the business of designing
bikes for customers!

I've read many reports over the years of people falling from their
bikes because of TCO. It hasn't happened to me, but I wouldn't want to
tell anyone that the thing that made them fall over was purely user
error and not an attribute of bicycle design.

Further, I submit that the heated reaction you perceive was
essentially begged for by Grant's comment, and he knew it was coming,
and we gave it to him. And he probably did regret it in the morning,
as he said he would. And I think I've now said all I have to say on
this stimulating topic.

Thanks,

James Black

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RE: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-04 Thread Frederick, Steve
CycloFiend wrote, in part:
I think GP's post was a new thread to comment about a previous thread.
Nevertheless, I do want to remind folks that if they want to communicate
with Rivendell on any subject, the best way if directly. (Or cc them on the
email with a note explaining why.) This list is an off-site get together...

I'd like Grant to be able to pop in here and make a post occasionally just as a 
guy, a fellow rider.  I know it's tough to not read everything from him as 
gospel (which he hates, I understand) or the official Rivendell final word on 
something, but I think he was just weighing in with his own feelings about TCO. 
 (and I do recognize that his word often is the final one on all things 
Rivendell so that there's a bit of a catch 22)  

I (speaking just as a guy and fellow rider) prefer little or no TCO but can 
live with it if need be--I wouldn't trade my Rambouillet for anything, TCO and 
all, even though my Saluki has no TCO at all...which speaks volumes I think for 
the advantages of designing smaller frames around smaller wheels...

Steve Frederick, East Lansing, MI

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-04 Thread Steve Palincsar
On Thu, 2010-02-04 at 12:49 -0800, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
 Not to offend anybody, but my personal opinion is that TCO is a sign
 of weak character and moral failing.

Weak character on the part of the frame builder and designer, right?



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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-04 Thread cyclotourist
Yeah, remind me to never ever, ever-never ask a question on the
internets



On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Robert F. Harrison rfharri...@gmail.comwrote:

 Actually I think this round of TCO discussion was started off with this
 innocuous little query...

 Subject: TCO on an Atlantis?
 Morning query:  With BIG 50mm or larger tires on a 700c Atlantis, are
 there TCO issues?
 Enjoy a Sunday ride!
 Cheers,
 David
 Redlands, CA


 Grant did start this particular thread in response to that thread which
 also diverged into a thread about tire width side of things. So while he may
 have started the thread, he did not start the topic, he was responding to
 it, albeit using a different subject line.

 Apparently I don't have anything better to do today than sort through old
 email. :-)

 And, if one really wanted to go back, I thinking one could claim this is
 all just an extension of the 12/1/2007 (!) topic:

 Not The Last Word on TCO ( http://goo.gl/SaGU )



 One my QB (700c/35mm/fendered/big feet/no clips) I did experience a wee bit
 of TCO (no consequences) the first day I rode it and, having noted it, have
 never had a problem since then. At least on my bike it isn't particularly
 hard to avoid, even at low speed.

 Aloha! Bob



 On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Rene Valbuena valbu...@ix.netcom.com
 wrote:
 
  I do have a life. that's why i don't reply to any all topics here;-) if
 grant did not start the thread, who did? isn't it if your name is on top of
 the topic or the first one, it is considered that you started the topic? --
 rene
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: PATRICK MOORE
  Sent: Feb 4, 2010 12:13 PM
  To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
  Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..
 
  Actually, Grant didn't start the thread.
 
  But I think it is time for other entrail readings and that we should move
 on to analyzing Grant's wardrobe or his deoderant or something. I don't like
 his haircut. Anyone else care to chime in?
 
  Christ! Let's all get ourselves lives!
 
  On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Rene valbu...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
 
  TCO is a problem to me which I have learned to live with with all the
  Rivendell models I have owned. But this does not leave me less
  sensitive to GP's choice of words on this matter either. I hope
  Rivendell Bicycle Works will put out a chart or a table indicating at
  what size(s) among their models is TCO not going to be a problem
  even with a size 12 feet or shoes. Or even a smaller size if 12 is a
  bigger average. Some may tell me that I should tell this directly to
  RBW. But I thought since GP started this subject on this forum, I can
  propose it here.
 
  -- Rene
 
  On Feb 3, 2:12 pm, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote:
   Anne and James:
  
   I will readily concede that TCO not being a concern to me left less
   sensitive to GP's choice of words.
  
   On Feb 3, 1:05 pm, Anne Paulson anne.paul...@gmail.com wrote:
  
  
  
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:48 AM, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com
 wrote:
 Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers
 like
 myself, recognize that TCO is an offense (however significant),
 and
 deal with it proactively, either by eliminating it, or
 acknowledging
 that it is a necessary evil (however significant) to be
 tolerated.
  
 Isn't that what Grant says in his post?
  
He said: TCO ends up being a problem---in my opinion---only in
theoretics, but not in practice.
  
For me, TCO is a problem in practice. I don't mind hearing that the
desire for no TCO has to be balanced with other design
 considerations.
I do mind hearing that what is an actual problem for me is not an
actual problem for me.
  
--
-- Anne Paulson
  
He who wills the ends wills the means- Hide quoted text -
  
   - Show quoted text -
 
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  --
  Patrick Moore
  Albuquerque, NM
  For professional resumes, contact
  Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com
  (505) 227-0523
 
 
 
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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-04 Thread Rene Valbuena
without being facetious, but wanting to pursue the proposal to the point of 
absurdity, we can limit the number of variables jim pointed out to only those 
which can be measured. let us not use the size of the shoes or even the angle 
of the foot when pedalling or heeling the pedal. so as not to have so many 
un-measureable variables -- we just use the two sizes of metal toe clip: medium 
and large; two lengths of Sugino crankarm: 170mm and 175mm; and the depth of 
the MKS touring pedal as a constant. all these components are readily available 
from RBW. the use of actual metal toe-clips is actually more appropriate, if i 
might say so.

with these measureable combinations of variables, we then plot our findings 
according to the following table which we can call MATRIX OF TCO OF RBW BICYCLE 
MODELS: For example, if an A. Homer Hilsen size 57 has TCO with the use of 
170mm crankarm and large metal toe-clip, we put an x under the colum Large 
Toe-Clip Size across A. Homer Hilsen 57.


Model Size / crank length /Toe-Clip Size170mm   Medium  Large   175mm   
Medium  Large
Roadeo 51   
Roadeo 53   
Roadeo 55   
Roadeo 57   
Roadeo 59   
Roadeo 61   
Roadeo 63 X 
A. Homer Hilsen 57  
A. Homer Hilsen 59  
A. Homer Hilsen 61  
A. Homer Hilsen 63  
A. Homer Hilsen 65  
A. Homer Hilsen 67  
A. Homer Hilsen 72  

-Original Message-
From: CycloFiend cyclofi...@earthlink.net
Sent: Feb 4, 2010 3:18 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

on 2/4/10 8:28 AM, Rene at valbu...@ix.netcom.com wrote:

 TCO is a problem to me which I have learned to live with with all the
 Rivendell models I have owned. But this does not leave me less
 sensitive to GP's choice of words on this matter either. I hope
 Rivendell Bicycle Works will put out a chart or a table indicating at
 what size(s) among their models is TCO not going to be a problem
 even with a size 12 feet or shoes. Or even a smaller size if 12 is a
 bigger average. Some may tell me that I should tell this directly to
 RBW. But I thought since GP started this subject on this forum, I can
 propose it here.

I think GP's post was a new thread to comment about a previous thread.
Nevertheless, I do want to remind folks that if they want to communicate
with Rivendell on any subject, the best way if directly. (Or cc them on the
email with a note explaining why.) This list is an off-site get together.

Back on this subject, to paraphrase and engage in conjecture, I think Rene's
post above gets at the crux of the issue - the significant number of
variables in what seems a simple question.

A frame that has no TCO for a rider with size 10 feet may cause problems if
you are a size 12.  If I use a clip-in pedal system, with cleats under the
ball of my feet, that's going to be different than if I use platforms and
pedal with a mid-foot-centered position.  Large soled shoes?  Fitted shoes?
Do I make low course corrections more with body english or tiller input?

Clearly, for those folks to whom this is an issue, there must be a way to
quantify it. 

You could probably measure the BB to front axle distance, and see if there
was a consistency in what size caused the issue. The variables would be
wheel size, tire size, fender standoff (gap from tire), fender thickness,
shoe size (literally, the materal thickness at the toe), foot position with
relation to pedal spindle (i.e. how much meat is in front of the spindle,
though you can really just combine those two variables into one), and crank
length. But, all of those would run on the basic dimension of bb to front
axle. 

So, I get all charged up and measure this out on the Quickbeam, a 58 cm
frame which seems to have about a 610 mm bb-front axle measurement. The
distance from the axle to the outside of the fender is 362 mm, the cranks
are 170 mm and the foot protrusion is 100 mm. Which would mean that the
overlap is ~22 mm. 

Except it isn't. I don't have any issues on that bike.

And then it dawns on me that the whole thing has a 2nd dimension which
involves (a) the arc of the front wheel and (b) the offset of foot position
from the centerline of the bike (determined by bb spindle length, crank
tread

Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-03 Thread james black
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 22:32, Tim McNamara tim...@bitstream.net wrote:
 I think there are a number of us who want our cake and get to eat it too:
  sporty fast geometry with 45 mm tires, full fenders and no TCO.  I'd say
 pick two.  Some enchiladas can't be readily served whole.

What we're talking about is a matter of how much value to place on
various attributes. I understand that many of you will come to a
reasoned point of view that the drawbacks of going to a smaller wheel
size outweigh the benefits of eliminating TCO. Nearly every bike
company makes some bikes with TCO. But there are also many cyclists
who share my point of view that the benefits of the larger diameter
wheel do not outweigh the disadvantage of TCO.

Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers like
myself, recognize that TCO is an offense (however significant), and
deal with it proactively, either by eliminating it, or acknowledging
that it is a necessary evil (however significant) to be tolerated. I
am mildly annoyed and feel vaguely insulted by the point of view I
sometimes encounter that TCO is an imaginary problem, or that I'm some
kind of dimwit because it bothers me. There are other cyclists
(customers) like me - bike designers should be attentive to this fact.

James Black
Los Angeles, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-03 Thread Kenneth Stagg
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 11:37 AM, james black chocot...@gmail.com wrote:
 ... I
 am mildly annoyed and feel vaguely insulted by the point of view I
 sometimes encounter that TCO is an imaginary problem, or that I'm some
 kind of dimwit because it bothers me. There are other cyclists
 (customers) like me - bike designers should be attentive to this fact.

I agree.  That's the part of this whole debate that bothers me.  It's
not that those of us who care about it can't appreciate that some
people don't, it's that some people try to tell us it's an imaginary
problem and that we should just get over it.

On a single I'm willing to put up with some TCO, though I'm very glad
that Mike Barry designed my Mariposa without it.  On a tandem I would
not consider putting up with it - it's too dangerous when the person
controlling the bike doesn't have complete control of the pedals.

-Ken

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-03 Thread Anne Paulson
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:48 AM, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote:
 Those who design bicycles would be urged to consider customers like
 myself, recognize that TCO is an offense (however significant), and
 deal with it proactively, either by eliminating it, or acknowledging
 that it is a necessary evil (however significant) to be tolerated.

 Isn't that what Grant says in his post?

He said: TCO ends up being a problem---in my opinion---only in
theoretics, but not in practice.

For me, TCO is a problem in practice. I don't mind hearing that the
desire for no TCO has to be balanced with other design considerations.
I do mind hearing that what is an actual problem for me is not an
actual problem for me.

-- 
-- Anne Paulson

He who wills the ends wills the means

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-03 Thread Tim McNamara


On Feb 3, 2010, at 12:54 PM, JoelMatthews wrote:


For some reason that isn't completely obvious, a lot of people have a
reflexive distaste for smaller wheels. The 56 Atlantis was always a
much harder sell than a 58 Atlantis, which I attribute to a  
widespread
prejudice against smaller wheels. Over on the Long Haul Trucker  
forum,
there are plenty of folks who do not understand (to the point of  
being

angry about it) why Surly would offer the bigger LHT frames designed
around 26 wheels. I'll be curious to see how the small-wheel  
Truckers

sell, and if there's really sizable group clamoring for these.


Did not realize people were so hostile to 26.  I will soon receive a
custom that is built around 26 wheels - at just under 6', I guess you
could call my bikes either larger or average.  I did not spec 26
because of some TCO concern.  Rather, I wanted to have a bike that
could use the biggest Big Apples without putting my head up in sub-
space.


I get flak about it sometimes when I am out riding my All-Rounder  
with 26 wheels.


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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-03 Thread Steve Palincsar
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 18:17 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
 On Feb 3, 2010, at 12:54 PM, JoelMatthews wrote:

  Did not realize people were so hostile to 26.  I will soon receive a
  custom that is built around 26 wheels - at just under 6', I guess you
  could call my bikes either larger or average.  I did not spec 26
  because of some TCO concern.  Rather, I wanted to have a bike that
  could use the biggest Big Apples without putting my head up in sub-
  space.
 
 I get flak about it sometimes when I am out riding my All-Rounder  
 with 26 wheels.
 

I can't imagine why they'd care.  Can you even see that the wheels are
unusual?   I've only really ever seen one Riv All-Arounder, I think a 58
cm, and it looks perfectly ordinary with nothing particular to note
about the wheels other than some pretty fat looking tires.

What do they say?  And what do you say in return?



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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-03 Thread PATRICK MOORE
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 5:24 PM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote:

 

 I can't imagine why they'd care [about 26 wheels -- ed.].  Can you even
 see that the wheels are
 unusual?   I've only really ever seen one Riv All-Arounder, I think a 58
 cm, and it looks perfectly ordinary with nothing particular to note
 about the wheels other than some pretty fat looking tires.

 What do they say?  And what do you say in return?

 FWIW, the most common comment I get, usually from full-lycra/crabon
roadies, is nice bike or, even, most recently, Beautiful bike! The other
one is, How old is it? I say, Hmmm, let's see -- delivered in March of
'03  or I had it made in 1999, and that surprises them. Few have even
noticed or remarked at the small wheels.

-- 
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com
(505) 227-0523

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-03 Thread Tim McNamara


On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote:


On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 18:17 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:

On Feb 3, 2010, at 12:54 PM, JoelMatthews wrote:


Did not realize people were so hostile to 26.  I will soon  
receive a
custom that is built around 26 wheels - at just under 6', I  
guess you

could call my bikes either larger or average.  I did not spec 26
because of some TCO concern.  Rather, I wanted to have a bike that
could use the biggest Big Apples without putting my head up in sub-
space.


I get flak about it sometimes when I am out riding my All-Rounder
with 26 wheels.



I can't imagine why they'd care.  Can you even see that the wheels are
unusual?   I've only really ever seen one Riv All-Arounder, I think  
a 58

cm, and it looks perfectly ordinary with nothing particular to note
about the wheels other than some pretty fat looking tires.

What do they say?  And what do you say in return?


Jeez, what's with the little wheels?  Aren't those wheels awfully  
slow?  Small wheels have higher rolling resistance.  Etc.


I tell them this wheel is 14 years old and I've never had to true  
it.  Then I pass them going down the next hill.


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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-02 Thread PATRICK MOORE
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:21 PM, RonLau ron...@ronlau.com wrote:

 Fixed gear and fenders (Mudguards.) is going to make this move a
 little difficult, but not impossible. With clipless pedals, you could
 unclip the outside foot and move your toe back to give more clearance.
 I sometimes get out of the saddle and simply point my toe downwards to
 give more clearance.


In my experience, metal fenders actually help with TCO because they provide
a smooth, rounded surface off which your toe clip or toe will slip more
easily than on the rubber tire.

As with most things, you get used to it and learn to deal with it so that it
becomes a negligible problem.






-- 
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com
(505) 227-0523

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-02 Thread cyclotourist
Yes!  I already mentioned I hope it has... get this... room for 60mm tires
and no TCO!  :-)

But I understand if it doesn't.  That's the extreme end of the design
spectrum, and may not be one of the goals.  That doesn't mean it's covered
in mucus, either!

:-)

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Michael_S mikeybi...@rocketmail.com wrote:

 Perhaps the Hunqapillar will fit your yearing for bigger knobby tired
 lugged bikes? It is touted as somwhere between the Atlantis and the
 Bombadil. I haven't seen any geometry yet but to me that means at
 least a 2.0 29er tire. Perhaps Grant can fill in the missing geometry
 data so those of us who are searching for that kind of bike ( rough
 off-road capable) can decide on whether to wait for the 'Hunqa' or
 not.

 Mike
 Awaiting the Hunqa in SoCal


 On Feb 2, 8:55 am, cyclotourist cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote:
  On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 7:14 AM, Seth Vidal skvi...@gmail.com wrote:
   On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Horace max...@sdf.lonestar.org
 wrote:
I think that for people who think TCO is an issue -- it is, and I
 don't
   try
to change their minds. But I think if someone is wondering whether
 it's
going to be an issue for them... it probably isn't.
 
   TCO was an issue, once, for me on one bike. Then I decided if I was in
   a place where it could happen I had to be going so slowly that I'd
   just stop and put a foot down.
 
   It's not like I have clips or clipless pedals anyway so putting a foot
   down isn't any extra work. :)
   -sv
 
   --
 
  Grant et al
 
  I was the OP for this conversation, and was wondering about TCO for a
  specific reason:  off-road riding an Atlantis with SPD pedals.  When I'm
  clicked in, TCO is bad cuz' I'm not the fastest un-clicker-outer.  That's
  mainly only a problem on singletrack.  My AR doesn't have it, but it only
  fits 42-44mm tires.  I'm looking at bikes that fit full 29ers, of which
 the
  Atlantis is one.
 
  No disparaging remarks about Atlantis were made or intended at all.
  That's
  a GREAT bike, no matter how much mucus is all over it!  I'm trying to
  rationalize buying one
 
  --
  Cheers,
  David
  Redlands, CA
 
  Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something
  wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym.  ~Bill Nye,
  scientist guy- Hide quoted text -
 
  - Show quoted text -

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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something
wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym.  ~Bill Nye,
scientist guy

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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-02 Thread PATRICK MOORE
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 6:02 PM, cyclotourist cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yes!  I already mentioned I hope it has... get this... room for 60mm tires
 and no TCO!  :-)

 .. 70 mms and fenders (TCO be damned)?

Patrick wimpy skinny 60s Moore


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Re: [RBW] Re: TCO in general..

2010-02-02 Thread Anne Paulson

 Toe overlap is not a problem because riding and cornering at normal
 speed the front wheel never turns far enough for the toe to hit the
 front wheel. The only time it becomes an issue is when turning sharply
 at a very slow speed; doing a U-turn on a very narrow road for
 example.


This is just untrue. Toe clip overlap is also a problem climbing very
steep roads at very slow speeds. At least, it is for me. I had a
Romulus, and I would regularly hit my foot on the wheel on climbs.
Since I like to climb, I traded my Romulus (with 700 c wheels) for an
Atlantis (with smaller wheels).

-- 
-- Anne Paulson

He who wills the ends wills the means

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