Re: [RBW] Roaduno and the state of single speed bikes

[Bill Lindsay]

Johnny Alien said: "I am confused..." but then explained why he doesn't 
want to buy a Roaduno.

You don't sound confused to me.  You sound like you've considered the bike 
and don't want to buy one.  I'm not going to buy one either, but my reasons 
are different.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA
On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 9:12:07 AM UTC-8 Johnny Alien wrote:

> I am confused and its probably just that I am not the market for a bike 
> like this. I feel like once you decide you want a few gears its easier to 
> do a 1x7 for limited gears than 3x1. And big jumps on the front will be 
> fidgity anyway. Understanding that the idea is to stick in one gear most of 
> the time but I still don't see the value. Either you want a 1x or you want 
> a few options and if you want a few options 7 is theoretically better than 
> 3.
>
> On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 11:37:14 AM UTC-5 iamkeith wrote:
>
>> While im at it: 
>>
>> Seat stays:
>> QB and SO attached to the seat tube cluster with traditional brazed 
>> "spoons."  Unlike their contemporary production models (rambouillet, 
>> saluki, atlantis), they weren't double-tapered (they only got skinnier at 
>> the bottom end) so that fewer lengths were needed.  Frank and Roaduno use 
>> the newer ball-and-socket connection, that doesn't rely on the shear 
>> strength of brazing for structral integrity.  At the bottom, QB and SO were 
>> also brazed (slotted) at the dropout plate.  Frank and Roaduno are tig 
>> welded to a breezer-esque, cast, hooded flange.
>>
>> Paint:
>> QB and SO were simple, single-color.  Decals were on TOP of the paint (at 
>> least with QB.) Intent was to keep the bike inexpensive and utiliarian.  
>> Frank and Roaduno are fancy  with creme head tube and window fill 
>> highlights.
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 8:55:35 AM UTC-7 iamkeith wrote:
>>
>>> I believe that the Roaduno is going to be 120mm spaced, just like the 
>>> Quickbeam/Simple One and Frank Jones Sr.  (I'm going from memory from 
>>> following the updates too, though).  The idea behind the hanger is more 
>>> that it could accommodate a chain tensioner than a derailleur.  For 
>>> whatever reason, Rivendell is currently enamored with a 
>>> multiple-chainring/single-cog approach to achieving multi-speed 
>>> drivetrains.  
>>>
>>> Nonetheless, there are still some 120mm cassette hubs out there, that 
>>> take truncated gear clusters.  I seem to recall Grand Bois and the new 
>>> Suntour group.  There are also several internal geared hubs that are 120mm 
>>> OLN.
>>>
>>> Ignoring any ride quality differences, which we of course can't answer 
>>> (but Will did address in the recent email), I think the differences between 
>>> the Roaduno and other Riv single-speeds goes like this: 
>>>
>>> Size range:
>>> Quickbeam came in the relatively small 2cm size increments that Riv used 
>>> in the earlier years.  The 
>>> classic-but-surprisingly-rare-for-production-bikes way of ensuring that 
>>> there was a frame to fit everyone properly.  Simple One was a geometic 
>>> clone of the Quickbeam, but wasn't offered in the really huge or really 
>>> small sizes.  Frank was ONLY produced in small to medium sizes, because it 
>>> was intended specifically for the Japanese market, where people tend to 
>>> have a shorter stature.  Roaduno follows Rivs newer "expanded" sizing 
>>> method, which started with the Sam Hillbourne, I believe:  sloped top tubes 
>>> allow more standover AND taller stack heights, and longer top tubes allow 
>>> for reach-back bars and/or shorter stems to dial in the fit for more 
>>> riders.  Fewer frame sizes (and fewer fork steerer lengths) is cheaper and 
>>> avoids having to buy mimimum quantities of niche sizes that take forever to 
>>> sell.
>>>
>>> Lugs:  
>>> All three are fully-lugged.  Frank had the extra-fancy ones, which were 
>>> previously only used on customs.  
>>>
>>> Fork Crown / Tire Clearance:  
>>> First QBs had the (narrowest)  RC02 crown, but that wasn't really the 
>>> tight spot anyway.  The chainstays were.  With wheels toward the back of 
>>> the dropout, you could fit maybe 44mm with fenders. (Officially less)  
>>> Later QBs and SOs had a wider crown.  I don't know about Frank, but suspect 
>>> it had slightly more tire clearance simply because available tire 
>>> technology and sizes had progressed so much further by then.  Roaduno is 
>>> getting the unique Appaloosa crown which COULD take a 55mm or so but, 
>>> because it's being used with caliper brakes, is limited to 50mm or so.
>>>
>>> Brakes:
>>> QB and SO had cantis.  Frank and Roaduno use caliper (or center-pull).  
>>> Roaduno (maybe Frank too?) need long-reach.
>>>
>>> Chainstays;
>>> Roaduno has longer stays, though that appears to have been significantly 
>>> tempered over the evolution of the prototypes.
>>>
>>> Dropouts:
>>> QB and SO had water-jet cut plate steel dropouts with the slot cut at a 
>>> slope, so that the brake pads would hit the rim no matter where in t

Re: [RBW] Roaduno and the state of single speed bikes

[iamkeith]

On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 10:12:07 AM UTC-7 Johnny Alien wrote:

I am confused and its probably just that I am not the market for a bike 
like this. I feel like once you decide you want a few gears its easier to 
do a 1x7 for limited gears than 3x1. And big jumps on the front will be 
fidgity anyway. Understanding that the idea is to stick in one gear most of 
the time but I still don't see the value. Either you want a 1x or you want 
a few options and if you want a few options 7 is theoretically better than 
3.



Having not tried it, I can only speculate.  What is interesting about it to 
me is:


1.  You wouldn't technically even need a front derailleur.  You could just 
move the chain by hand or stick, and not have to fuss with loosening  
re-centering, and re-tightening a wheel.  I don't know if you need 
narrow/wide teeth patterns to keep the chain from bouncing off the 
chainring though.

2.  You could have more subtle jumps in gearing.  (2 teeth is a smaller 
percentage of 44 teeth than it is 16 teeth.)

 


On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 11:37:14 AM UTC-5 iamkeith wrote:

While im at it: 

Seat stays:
QB and SO attached to the seat tube cluster with traditional brazed 
"spoons."  Unlike their contemporary production models (rambouillet, 
saluki, atlantis), they weren't double-tapered (they only got skinnier at 
the bottom end) so that fewer lengths were needed.  Frank and Roaduno use 
the newer ball-and-socket connection, that doesn't rely on the shear 
strength of brazing for structral integrity.  At the bottom, QB and SO were 
also brazed (slotted) at the dropout plate.  Frank and Roaduno are tig 
welded to a breezer-esque, cast, hooded flange.

Paint:
QB and SO were simple, single-color.  Decals were on TOP of the paint (at 
least with QB.) Intent was to keep the bike inexpensive and utiliarian.  
Frank and Roaduno are fancy  with creme head tube and window fill 
highlights.


On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 8:55:35 AM UTC-7 iamkeith wrote:

I believe that the Roaduno is going to be 120mm spaced, just like the 
Quickbeam/Simple One and Frank Jones Sr.  (I'm going from memory from 
following the updates too, though).  The idea behind the hanger is more 
that it could accommodate a chain tensioner than a derailleur.  For 
whatever reason, Rivendell is currently enamored with a 
multiple-chainring/single-cog approach to achieving multi-speed 
drivetrains.  

Nonetheless, there are still some 120mm cassette hubs out there, that take 
truncated gear clusters.  I seem to recall Grand Bois and the new Suntour 
group.  There are also several internal geared hubs that are 120mm OLN.

Ignoring any ride quality differences, which we of course can't answer (but 
Will did address in the recent email), I think the differences between the 
Roaduno and other Riv single-speeds goes like this: 

Size range:
Quickbeam came in the relatively small 2cm size increments that Riv used in 
the earlier years.  The classic-but-surprisingly-rare-for-production-bikes 
way of ensuring that there was a frame to fit everyone properly.  Simple 
One was a geometic clone of the Quickbeam, but wasn't offered in the really 
huge or really small sizes.  Frank was ONLY produced in small to medium 
sizes, because it was intended specifically for the Japanese market, where 
people tend to have a shorter stature.  Roaduno follows Rivs newer 
"expanded" sizing method, which started with the Sam Hillbourne, I 
believe:  sloped top tubes allow more standover AND taller stack heights, 
and longer top tubes allow for reach-back bars and/or shorter stems to dial 
in the fit for more riders.  Fewer frame sizes (and fewer fork steerer 
lengths) is cheaper and avoids having to buy mimimum quantities of niche 
sizes that take forever to sell.

Lugs:  
All three are fully-lugged.  Frank had the extra-fancy ones, which were 
previously only used on customs.  

Fork Crown / Tire Clearance:  
First QBs had the (narrowest)  RC02 crown, but that wasn't really the tight 
spot anyway.  The chainstays were.  With wheels toward the back of the 
dropout, you could fit maybe 44mm with fenders. (Officially less)  Later 
QBs and SOs had a wider crown.  I don't know about Frank, but suspect it 
had slightly more tire clearance simply because available tire technology 
and sizes had progressed so much further by then.  Roaduno is getting the 
unique Appaloosa crown which COULD take a 55mm or so but, because it's 
being used with caliper brakes, is limited to 50mm or so.

Brakes:
QB and SO had cantis.  Frank and Roaduno use caliper (or center-pull).  
Roaduno (maybe Frank too?) need long-reach.

Chainstays;
Roaduno has longer stays, though that appears to have been significantly 
tempered over the evolution of the prototypes.

Dropouts:
QB and SO had water-jet cut plate steel dropouts with the slot cut at a 
slope, so that the brake pads would hit the rim no matter where in the slot 
the wheel was clamped.  It was intended to see frequent manual gear chang

Re: [RBW] Roaduno and the state of single speed bikes

[iamkeith]

...why that minutia about dropout construction and connection methods 
matters is this:

Even with the longer chainstays, it may actually be more difficult to spead 
the rear end to 130 or 135mm.  I haven't tried, but it seems logical when 
you look at the dropouts.  With the QB and its brazed-in plate steel 
dropouts, people spread them to 135 fairly regularly.

Here are some 120mm cassette hubs I mentioned earlier.  Bill has a thread 
detailing his own experimenting with one:

https://www.hubjub.co.uk/sunxcd-120-mm-old-rear-cassette-hub-5204-p.asp


https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/grand-bois-5-speed-cassette-hubs/?iframe=true&theme_preview=true/




On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 9:37:14 AM UTC-7 iamkeith wrote:

> While im at it: 
>
> Seat stays:
> QB and SO attached to the seat tube cluster with traditional brazed 
> "spoons."  Unlike their contemporary production models (rambouillet, 
> saluki, atlantis), they weren't double-tapered (they only got skinnier at 
> the bottom end) so that fewer lengths were needed.  Frank and Roaduno use 
> the newer ball-and-socket connection, that doesn't rely on the shear 
> strength of brazing for structral integrity.  At the bottom, QB and SO were 
> also brazed (slotted) at the dropout plate.  Frank and Roaduno are tig 
> welded to a breezer-esque, cast, hooded flange.
>
> Paint:
> QB and SO were simple, single-color.  Decals were on TOP of the paint (at 
> least with QB.) Intent was to keep the bike inexpensive and utiliarian.  
> Frank and Roaduno are fancy  with creme head tube and window fill 
> highlights.
>
>
> On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 8:55:35 AM UTC-7 iamkeith wrote:
>
>> I believe that the Roaduno is going to be 120mm spaced, just like the 
>> Quickbeam/Simple One and Frank Jones Sr.  (I'm going from memory from 
>> following the updates too, though).  The idea behind the hanger is more 
>> that it could accommodate a chain tensioner than a derailleur.  For 
>> whatever reason, Rivendell is currently enamored with a 
>> multiple-chainring/single-cog approach to achieving multi-speed 
>> drivetrains.  
>>
>> Nonetheless, there are still some 120mm cassette hubs out there, that 
>> take truncated gear clusters.  I seem to recall Grand Bois and the new 
>> Suntour group.  There are also several internal geared hubs that are 120mm 
>> OLN.
>>
>> Ignoring any ride quality differences, which we of course can't answer 
>> (but Will did address in the recent email), I think the differences between 
>> the Roaduno and other Riv single-speeds goes like this: 
>>
>> Size range:
>> Quickbeam came in the relatively small 2cm size increments that Riv used 
>> in the earlier years.  The 
>> classic-but-surprisingly-rare-for-production-bikes way of ensuring that 
>> there was a frame to fit everyone properly.  Simple One was a geometic 
>> clone of the Quickbeam, but wasn't offered in the really huge or really 
>> small sizes.  Frank was ONLY produced in small to medium sizes, because it 
>> was intended specifically for the Japanese market, where people tend to 
>> have a shorter stature.  Roaduno follows Rivs newer "expanded" sizing 
>> method, which started with the Sam Hillbourne, I believe:  sloped top tubes 
>> allow more standover AND taller stack heights, and longer top tubes allow 
>> for reach-back bars and/or shorter stems to dial in the fit for more 
>> riders.  Fewer frame sizes (and fewer fork steerer lengths) is cheaper and 
>> avoids having to buy mimimum quantities of niche sizes that take forever to 
>> sell.
>>
>> Lugs:  
>> All three are fully-lugged.  Frank had the extra-fancy ones, which were 
>> previously only used on customs.  
>>
>> Fork Crown / Tire Clearance:  
>> First QBs had the (narrowest)  RC02 crown, but that wasn't really the 
>> tight spot anyway.  The chainstays were.  With wheels toward the back of 
>> the dropout, you could fit maybe 44mm with fenders. (Officially less)  
>> Later QBs and SOs had a wider crown.  I don't know about Frank, but suspect 
>> it had slightly more tire clearance simply because available tire 
>> technology and sizes had progressed so much further by then.  Roaduno is 
>> getting the unique Appaloosa crown which COULD take a 55mm or so but, 
>> because it's being used with caliper brakes, is limited to 50mm or so.
>>
>> Brakes:
>> QB and SO had cantis.  Frank and Roaduno use caliper (or center-pull).  
>> Roaduno (maybe Frank too?) need long-reach.
>>
>> Chainstays;
>> Roaduno has longer stays, though that appears to have been significantly 
>> tempered over the evolution of the prototypes.
>>
>> Dropouts:
>> QB and SO had water-jet cut plate steel dropouts with the slot cut at a 
>> slope, so that the brake pads would hit the rim no matter where in the slot 
>> the wheel was clamped.  It was intended to see frequent manual gear changes 
>> by moving the chain to adjacent cog and/or chainring, either of which would 
>> change the effecive chainstay length.  It could accommodate an 8 tooth 
>>

Re: [RBW] Roaduno and the state of single speed bikes

[Johnny Alien]

I am confused and its probably just that I am not the market for a bike 
like this. I feel like once you decide you want a few gears its easier to 
do a 1x7 for limited gears than 3x1. And big jumps on the front will be 
fidgity anyway. Understanding that the idea is to stick in one gear most of 
the time but I still don't see the value. Either you want a 1x or you want 
a few options and if you want a few options 7 is theoretically better than 
3.

On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 11:37:14 AM UTC-5 iamkeith wrote:

> While im at it: 
>
> Seat stays:
> QB and SO attached to the seat tube cluster with traditional brazed 
> "spoons."  Unlike their contemporary production models (rambouillet, 
> saluki, atlantis), they weren't double-tapered (they only got skinnier at 
> the bottom end) so that fewer lengths were needed.  Frank and Roaduno use 
> the newer ball-and-socket connection, that doesn't rely on the shear 
> strength of brazing for structral integrity.  At the bottom, QB and SO were 
> also brazed (slotted) at the dropout plate.  Frank and Roaduno are tig 
> welded to a breezer-esque, cast, hooded flange.
>
> Paint:
> QB and SO were simple, single-color.  Decals were on TOP of the paint (at 
> least with QB.) Intent was to keep the bike inexpensive and utiliarian.  
> Frank and Roaduno are fancy  with creme head tube and window fill 
> highlights.
>
>
> On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 8:55:35 AM UTC-7 iamkeith wrote:
>
>> I believe that the Roaduno is going to be 120mm spaced, just like the 
>> Quickbeam/Simple One and Frank Jones Sr.  (I'm going from memory from 
>> following the updates too, though).  The idea behind the hanger is more 
>> that it could accommodate a chain tensioner than a derailleur.  For 
>> whatever reason, Rivendell is currently enamored with a 
>> multiple-chainring/single-cog approach to achieving multi-speed 
>> drivetrains.  
>>
>> Nonetheless, there are still some 120mm cassette hubs out there, that 
>> take truncated gear clusters.  I seem to recall Grand Bois and the new 
>> Suntour group.  There are also several internal geared hubs that are 120mm 
>> OLN.
>>
>> Ignoring any ride quality differences, which we of course can't answer 
>> (but Will did address in the recent email), I think the differences between 
>> the Roaduno and other Riv single-speeds goes like this: 
>>
>> Size range:
>> Quickbeam came in the relatively small 2cm size increments that Riv used 
>> in the earlier years.  The 
>> classic-but-surprisingly-rare-for-production-bikes way of ensuring that 
>> there was a frame to fit everyone properly.  Simple One was a geometic 
>> clone of the Quickbeam, but wasn't offered in the really huge or really 
>> small sizes.  Frank was ONLY produced in small to medium sizes, because it 
>> was intended specifically for the Japanese market, where people tend to 
>> have a shorter stature.  Roaduno follows Rivs newer "expanded" sizing 
>> method, which started with the Sam Hillbourne, I believe:  sloped top tubes 
>> allow more standover AND taller stack heights, and longer top tubes allow 
>> for reach-back bars and/or shorter stems to dial in the fit for more 
>> riders.  Fewer frame sizes (and fewer fork steerer lengths) is cheaper and 
>> avoids having to buy mimimum quantities of niche sizes that take forever to 
>> sell.
>>
>> Lugs:  
>> All three are fully-lugged.  Frank had the extra-fancy ones, which were 
>> previously only used on customs.  
>>
>> Fork Crown / Tire Clearance:  
>> First QBs had the (narrowest)  RC02 crown, but that wasn't really the 
>> tight spot anyway.  The chainstays were.  With wheels toward the back of 
>> the dropout, you could fit maybe 44mm with fenders. (Officially less)  
>> Later QBs and SOs had a wider crown.  I don't know about Frank, but suspect 
>> it had slightly more tire clearance simply because available tire 
>> technology and sizes had progressed so much further by then.  Roaduno is 
>> getting the unique Appaloosa crown which COULD take a 55mm or so but, 
>> because it's being used with caliper brakes, is limited to 50mm or so.
>>
>> Brakes:
>> QB and SO had cantis.  Frank and Roaduno use caliper (or center-pull).  
>> Roaduno (maybe Frank too?) need long-reach.
>>
>> Chainstays;
>> Roaduno has longer stays, though that appears to have been significantly 
>> tempered over the evolution of the prototypes.
>>
>> Dropouts:
>> QB and SO had water-jet cut plate steel dropouts with the slot cut at a 
>> slope, so that the brake pads would hit the rim no matter where in the slot 
>> the wheel was clamped.  It was intended to see frequent manual gear changes 
>> by moving the chain to adjacent cog and/or chainring, either of which would 
>> change the effecive chainstay length.  It could accommodate an 8 tooth 
>> total range.  Frank had similar sloped slots, but used a fancy investment 
>> cast dropout.  Roaduno has an investment-cast dropout too, but the slot is 
>> horizontal and, of course, has the hanger.
>>
>> Braze-ons

Re: [RBW] Roaduno and the state of single speed bikes

[iamkeith]

While im at it: 

Seat stays:
QB and SO attached to the seat tube cluster with traditional brazed 
"spoons."  Unlike their contemporary production models (rambouillet, 
saluki, atlantis), they weren't double-tapered (they only got skinnier at 
the bottom end) so that fewer lengths were needed.  Frank and Roaduno use 
the newer ball-and-socket connection, that doesn't rely on the shear 
strength of brazing for structral integrity.  At the bottom, QB and SO were 
also brazed (slotted) at the dropout plate.  Frank and Roaduno are tig 
welded to a breezer-esque, cast, hooded flange.

Paint:
QB and SO were simple, single-color.  Decals were on TOP of the paint (at 
least with QB.) Intent was to keep the bike inexpensive and utiliarian.  
Frank and Roaduno are fancy  with creme head tube and window fill 
highlights.


On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 8:55:35 AM UTC-7 iamkeith wrote:

> I believe that the Roaduno is going to be 120mm spaced, just like the 
> Quickbeam/Simple One and Frank Jones Sr.  (I'm going from memory from 
> following the updates too, though).  The idea behind the hanger is more 
> that it could accommodate a chain tensioner than a derailleur.  For 
> whatever reason, Rivendell is currently enamored with a 
> multiple-chainring/single-cog approach to achieving multi-speed 
> drivetrains.  
>
> Nonetheless, there are still some 120mm cassette hubs out there, that take 
> truncated gear clusters.  I seem to recall Grand Bois and the new Suntour 
> group.  There are also several internal geared hubs that are 120mm OLN.
>
> Ignoring any ride quality differences, which we of course can't answer 
> (but Will did address in the recent email), I think the differences between 
> the Roaduno and other Riv single-speeds goes like this: 
>
> Size range:
> Quickbeam came in the relatively small 2cm size increments that Riv used 
> in the earlier years.  The 
> classic-but-surprisingly-rare-for-production-bikes way of ensuring that 
> there was a frame to fit everyone properly.  Simple One was a geometic 
> clone of the Quickbeam, but wasn't offered in the really huge or really 
> small sizes.  Frank was ONLY produced in small to medium sizes, because it 
> was intended specifically for the Japanese market, where people tend to 
> have a shorter stature.  Roaduno follows Rivs newer "expanded" sizing 
> method, which started with the Sam Hillbourne, I believe:  sloped top tubes 
> allow more standover AND taller stack heights, and longer top tubes allow 
> for reach-back bars and/or shorter stems to dial in the fit for more 
> riders.  Fewer frame sizes (and fewer fork steerer lengths) is cheaper and 
> avoids having to buy mimimum quantities of niche sizes that take forever to 
> sell.
>
> Lugs:  
> All three are fully-lugged.  Frank had the extra-fancy ones, which were 
> previously only used on customs.  
>
> Fork Crown / Tire Clearance:  
> First QBs had the (narrowest)  RC02 crown, but that wasn't really the 
> tight spot anyway.  The chainstays were.  With wheels toward the back of 
> the dropout, you could fit maybe 44mm with fenders. (Officially less)  
> Later QBs and SOs had a wider crown.  I don't know about Frank, but suspect 
> it had slightly more tire clearance simply because available tire 
> technology and sizes had progressed so much further by then.  Roaduno is 
> getting the unique Appaloosa crown which COULD take a 55mm or so but, 
> because it's being used with caliper brakes, is limited to 50mm or so.
>
> Brakes:
> QB and SO had cantis.  Frank and Roaduno use caliper (or center-pull).  
> Roaduno (maybe Frank too?) need long-reach.
>
> Chainstays;
> Roaduno has longer stays, though that appears to have been significantly 
> tempered over the evolution of the prototypes.
>
> Dropouts:
> QB and SO had water-jet cut plate steel dropouts with the slot cut at a 
> slope, so that the brake pads would hit the rim no matter where in the slot 
> the wheel was clamped.  It was intended to see frequent manual gear changes 
> by moving the chain to adjacent cog and/or chainring, either of which would 
> change the effecive chainstay length.  It could accommodate an 8 tooth 
> total range.  Frank had similar sloped slots, but used a fancy investment 
> cast dropout.  Roaduno has an investment-cast dropout too, but the slot is 
> horizontal and, of course, has the hanger.
>
> Braze-ons:
> Haven't studied this closely, but it should be easy enough to figure out.  
> The first QBs were pretty spare.  Later ones at least got mounts for a 
> campee rack on the fork.  I >think< Roaduno will have a full range for more 
> utility with racks.  But they talk about it being lightweight and NOT 
> intended for touring loads, too.
>
> Kick Sta
> The only difference between the QB and SO (other than country of origin 
> for tubing and manufacture) was that SO had a kickstand mounting plate.  
> Roaduno will likely have one too.
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 7:24:12 AM UTC-7 Arthur Mayfield wrote:
>
>>

Re: [RBW] Roaduno and the state of single speed bikes

[iamkeith]

I believe that the Roaduno is going to be 120mm spaced, just like the 
Quickbeam/Simple One and Frank Jones Sr.  (I'm going from memory from 
following the updates too, though).  The idea behind the hanger is more 
that it could accommodate a chain tensioner than a derailleur.  For 
whatever reason, Rivendell is currently enamored with a 
multiple-chainring/single-cog approach to achieving multi-speed 
drivetrains.  

Nonetheless, there are still some 120mm cassette hubs out there, that take 
truncated gear clusters.  I seem to recall Grand Bois and the new Suntour 
group.  There are also several internal geared hubs that are 120mm OLN.

Ignoring any ride quality differences, which we of course can't answer (but 
Will did address in the recent email), I think the differences between the 
Roaduno and other Riv single-speeds goes like this: 

Size range:
Quickbeam came in the relatively small 2cm size increments that Riv used in 
the earlier years.  The classic-but-surprisingly-rare-for-production-bikes 
way of ensuring that there was a frame to fit everyone properly.  Simple 
One was a geometic clone of the Quickbeam, but wasn't offered in the really 
huge or really small sizes.  Frank was ONLY produced in small to medium 
sizes, because it was intended specifically for the Japanese market, where 
people tend to have a shorter stature.  Roaduno follows Rivs newer 
"expanded" sizing method, which started with the Sam Hillbourne, I 
believe:  sloped top tubes allow more standover AND taller stack heights, 
and longer top tubes allow for reach-back bars and/or shorter stems to dial 
in the fit for more riders.  Fewer frame sizes (and fewer fork steerer 
lengths) is cheaper and avoids having to buy mimimum quantities of niche 
sizes that take forever to sell.

Lugs:  
All three are fully-lugged.  Frank had the extra-fancy ones, which were 
previously only used on customs.  

Fork Crown / Tire Clearance:  
First QBs had the (narrowest)  RC02 crown, but that wasn't really the tight 
spot anyway.  The chainstays were.  With wheels toward the back of the 
dropout, you could fit maybe 44mm with fenders. (Officially less)  Later 
QBs and SOs had a wider crown.  I don't know about Frank, but suspect it 
had slightly more tire clearance simply because available tire technology 
and sizes had progressed so much further by then.  Roaduno is getting the 
unique Appaloosa crown which COULD take a 55mm or so but, because it's 
being used with caliper brakes, is limited to 50mm or so.

Brakes:
QB and SO had cantis.  Frank and Roaduno use caliper (or center-pull).  
Roaduno (maybe Frank too?) need long-reach.

Chainstays;
Roaduno has longer stays, though that appears to have been significantly 
tempered over the evolution of the prototypes.

Dropouts:
QB and SO had water-jet cut plate steel dropouts with the slot cut at a 
slope, so that the brake pads would hit the rim no matter where in the slot 
the wheel was clamped.  It was intended to see frequent manual gear changes 
by moving the chain to adjacent cog and/or chainring, either of which would 
change the effecive chainstay length.  It could accommodate an 8 tooth 
total range.  Frank had similar sloped slots, but used a fancy investment 
cast dropout.  Roaduno has an investment-cast dropout too, but the slot is 
horizontal and, of course, has the hanger.

Braze-ons:
Haven't studied this closely, but it should be easy enough to figure out.  
The first QBs were pretty spare.  Later ones at least got mounts for a 
campee rack on the fork.  I >think< Roaduno will have a full range for more 
utility with racks.  But they talk about it being lightweight and NOT 
intended for touring loads, too.

Kick Sta
The only difference between the QB and SO (other than country of origin for 
tubing and manufacture) was that SO had a kickstand mounting plate.  
Roaduno will likely have one too.




On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 7:24:12 AM UTC-7 Arthur Mayfield wrote:

> If my FJ had a derailleur hanger, I’d be constantly tempted to turn it 
> into a 1X or 2X 5 or 6. 120mm rear spacing and the difficulties of mounting 
> a derailleur under track forks keeps me in line. As I recall, the Roaduno 
> has wider rear end to go with the hanger-equipped dropouts, so there are a 
> zillion hubs that will fit. I ride it as a single, rather than fixed, and 
> am content. The one change I’d make to a re-imagined FJ would be to add a 
> kickstand mount. I’ve never been comfortable with clamp-on kickstands, 
> always afraid they’d slip or I’d over tighten and damage the chain stays.
>
> On Saturday, February 3, 2024 at 9:24:09 AM UTC-5 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Well damn it. Looked this up & now I really want a silver Roaduno. Look 
>> like the same dropouts but with the hanger?
>> [image: image0.jpeg]
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Feb 3, 2024, at 9:04 AM, Arthur Mayfield  wrote:
>>
>> Not what else is out there, but what should be—Rivendell should bring 
>> back the Frank Jones. 700c, sidepu

Re: [RBW] Roaduno and the state of single speed bikes

[Bill Lindsay]

I think the 2x1 or 3x1 concept around the Roaduno is brilliant. 
 Flatlanders can go 1x1.  Rolling hills or windy conditions might make a 
2x1 appropriate.  3x1 for truly hilly places.  It's genius, IMO

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA
On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 7:23:16 AM UTC-8 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:

> Interesting stuff. I am pretty sure the Roaduno is 120 spaced. Screen shot 
> included. My only ever single speed was a fixie - My ‘70’s PX10 conversion. 
> I enjoyed riding that bike immensely & probably should have never sold it. 
> I do think riding fixed aggravated at least one of my knees. I should have 
> tried it as a single. The PX 10 had pretty long stays. It is so dead flat 
> here in northwest Ohio that I think I can get along well with a single - 
> maybe not on the windy days though. The southwest winds can howl here and 
> be as difficult as climbing. Perhaps a flip flop hub?
> [image: image0.png]
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 4, 2024, at 9:24 AM, Arthur Mayfield  wrote:
>
> If my FJ had a derailleur hanger, I’d be constantly tempted to turn it 
> into a 1X or 2X 5 or 6. 120mm rear spacing and the difficulties of mounting 
> a derailleur under track forks keeps me in line. As I recall, the Roaduno 
> has wider rear end to go with the hanger-equipped dropouts, so there are a 
> zillion hubs that will fit. I ride it as a single, rather than fixed, and 
> am content. The one change I’d make to a re-imagined FJ would be to add a 
> kickstand mount. I’ve never been comfortable with clamp-on kickstands, 
> always afraid they’d slip or I’d over tighten and damage the chain stays.
>
>
>
> On Saturday, February 3, 2024 at 9:24:09 AM UTC-5 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Well damn it. Looked this up & now I really want a silver Roaduno. Look 
>> like the same dropouts but with the hanger?
>> [image: image0.jpeg]
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Feb 3, 2024, at 9:04 AM, Arthur Mayfield  wrote:
>>
>> Not what else is out there, but what should be—Rivendell should bring 
>> back the Frank Jones. 700c, sidepull brakes, 120mm rear hub, fully lugged, 
>> fits up to 42mm tires (I have 32s with PDW fenders). I have three Rivs (FJ, 
>> Platy, caliper Sam), but my FJ is what I think of when I want to ride 
>> simply, or simply want to ride. Without a doubt, an *elegant* bicycle.
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, February 3, 2024 at 5:15:38 AM UTC-5 Eric Daume wrote:
>>
>>> The Surly Steamroller can take a 38mm tire, but no fender.
>>>
>>> The sadly out of production Cross Check could do a 38mm with a fender.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 5:16 PM Edwin W  wrote:
>>>
 I like single speed bikes, many like single speed bikes. The 
 simplicity, the possibility of fixed gear, it is the epitome of biking for 
 me, I think.

 I like the idea of the roaduno. So far it looks like it will have 
 700c/622 wheel size, long reach side pull brakes. Rear facing drop outs. 
 Those are the main factors to think about, because stem length, handlebar 
 and lever type, fenders or not, dynamo or not, are flexible on most bikes.

 What is the competition, and what are they offering?
 Crust Lightning bolt single speed. 650b wheels with anti posts. 

 BMC Monstercross. 700c wheels and cantilever posts. But that has 135mm 
 rear spacing, so not exactly built for single speed.

 What else is out there that can take a 38mm (or so) tire with a fender?

 Edwin

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Re: [RBW] Roaduno and the state of single speed bikes

[Arthur Mayfield]

If my FJ had a derailleur hanger, I’d be constantly tempted to turn it into 
a 1X or 2X 5 or 6. 120mm rear spacing and the difficulties of mounting a 
derailleur under track forks keeps me in line. As I recall, the Roaduno has 
wider rear end to go with the hanger-equipped dropouts, so there are a 
zillion hubs that will fit. I ride it as a single, rather than fixed, and 
am content. The one change I’d make to a re-imagined FJ would be to add a 
kickstand mount. I’ve never been comfortable with clamp-on kickstands, 
always afraid they’d slip or I’d over tighten and damage the chain stays.

On Saturday, February 3, 2024 at 9:24:09 AM UTC-5 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:

> Well damn it. Looked this up & now I really want a silver Roaduno. Look 
> like the same dropouts but with the hanger?
> [image: image0.jpeg]
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 3, 2024, at 9:04 AM, Arthur Mayfield  wrote:
>
> Not what else is out there, but what should be—Rivendell should bring 
> back the Frank Jones. 700c, sidepull brakes, 120mm rear hub, fully lugged, 
> fits up to 42mm tires (I have 32s with PDW fenders). I have three Rivs (FJ, 
> Platy, caliper Sam), but my FJ is what I think of when I want to ride 
> simply, or simply want to ride. Without a doubt, an *elegant* bicycle.
>
>
> On Saturday, February 3, 2024 at 5:15:38 AM UTC-5 Eric Daume wrote:
>
>> The Surly Steamroller can take a 38mm tire, but no fender.
>>
>> The sadly out of production Cross Check could do a 38mm with a fender.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 5:16 PM Edwin W  wrote:
>>
>>> I like single speed bikes, many like single speed bikes. The simplicity, 
>>> the possibility of fixed gear, it is the epitome of biking for me, I think.
>>>
>>> I like the idea of the roaduno. So far it looks like it will have 
>>> 700c/622 wheel size, long reach side pull brakes. Rear facing drop outs. 
>>> Those are the main factors to think about, because stem length, handlebar 
>>> and lever type, fenders or not, dynamo or not, are flexible on most bikes.
>>>
>>> What is the competition, and what are they offering?
>>> Crust Lightning bolt single speed. 650b wheels with anti posts. 
>>>
>>> BMC Monstercross. 700c wheels and cantilever posts. But that has 135mm 
>>> rear spacing, so not exactly built for single speed.
>>>
>>> What else is out there that can take a 38mm (or so) tire with a fender?
>>>
>>> Edwin
>>>
>>> -- 
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>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>>
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>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/ef477e87-6e73-4984-9b85-d3c5946f0d79n%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
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> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Roaduno and the state of single speed bikes

[Richard Rose]

Arthur, very interesting re Frank Jones. Although I had heard of that bike I am not familiar with it. How is it different from the Roaduno? Yesterdays update reinforces my suspicion that there may be nothing else quite like the new bike.Sent from my iPhoneOn Feb 3, 2024, at 9:04 AM, Arthur Mayfield  wrote:Not what else is out there, but what should be—Rivendell should bring back the Frank Jones. 700c, sidepull brakes, 120mm rear hub, fully lugged, fits up to 42mm tires (I have 32s with PDW fenders). I have three Rivs (FJ, Platy, caliper Sam), but my FJ is what I think of when I want to ride simply, or simply want to ride. Without a doubt, an elegant bicycle.On Saturday, February 3, 2024 at 5:15:38 AM UTC-5 Eric Daume wrote:The Surly Steamroller can take a 38mm tire, but no fender.The sadly out of production Cross Check could do a 38mm with a fender.EricOn Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 5:16 PM Edwin W  wrote:I like single speed bikes, many like single speed bikes. The simplicity, the possibility of fixed gear, it is the epitome of biking for me, I think.I like the idea of the roaduno. So far it looks like it will have 700c/622 wheel size, long reach side pull brakes. Rear facing drop outs. Those are the main factors to think about, because stem length, handlebar and lever type, fenders or not, dynamo or not, are flexible on most bikes.What is the competition, and what are they offering?Crust Lightning bolt single speed. 650b wheels with anti posts. BMC Monstercross. 700c wheels and cantilever posts. But that has 135mm rear spacing, so not exactly built for single speed.What else is out there that can take a 38mm (or so) tire with a fender?Edwin



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Re: [RBW] Roaduno and the state of single speed bikes

[Arthur Mayfield]

Not what else is out there, but what should be—Rivendell should bring back 
the Frank Jones. 700c, sidepull brakes, 120mm rear hub, fully lugged, fits 
up to 42mm tires (I have 32s with PDW fenders). I have three Rivs (FJ, 
Platy, caliper Sam), but my FJ is what I think of when I want to ride 
simply, or simply want to ride. Without a doubt, an *elegant* bicycle.

On Saturday, February 3, 2024 at 5:15:38 AM UTC-5 Eric Daume wrote:

> The Surly Steamroller can take a 38mm tire, but no fender.
>
> The sadly out of production Cross Check could do a 38mm with a fender.
>
> Eric
>
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 5:16 PM Edwin W  wrote:
>
>> I like single speed bikes, many like single speed bikes. The simplicity, 
>> the possibility of fixed gear, it is the epitome of biking for me, I think.
>>
>> I like the idea of the roaduno. So far it looks like it will have 
>> 700c/622 wheel size, long reach side pull brakes. Rear facing drop outs. 
>> Those are the main factors to think about, because stem length, handlebar 
>> and lever type, fenders or not, dynamo or not, are flexible on most bikes.
>>
>> What is the competition, and what are they offering?
>> Crust Lightning bolt single speed. 650b wheels with anti posts. 
>>
>> BMC Monstercross. 700c wheels and cantilever posts. But that has 135mm 
>> rear spacing, so not exactly built for single speed.
>>
>> What else is out there that can take a 38mm (or so) tire with a fender?
>>
>> Edwin
>>
>> -- 
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>>
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/ef477e87-6e73-4984-9b85-d3c5946f0d79n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Roaduno and the state of single speed bikes

[Eric Daume]

The Surly Steamroller can take a 38mm tire, but no fender.

The sadly out of production Cross Check could do a 38mm with a fender.

Eric

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 5:16 PM Edwin W  wrote:

> I like single speed bikes, many like single speed bikes. The simplicity,
> the possibility of fixed gear, it is the epitome of biking for me, I think.
>
> I like the idea of the roaduno. So far it looks like it will have 700c/622
> wheel size, long reach side pull brakes. Rear facing drop outs. Those are
> the main factors to think about, because stem length, handlebar and lever
> type, fenders or not, dynamo or not, are flexible on most bikes.
>
> What is the competition, and what are they offering?
> Crust Lightning bolt single speed. 650b wheels with anti posts.
>
> BMC Monstercross. 700c wheels and cantilever posts. But that has 135mm
> rear spacing, so not exactly built for single speed.
>
> What else is out there that can take a 38mm (or so) tire with a fender?
>
> Edwin
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [RBW] Roaduno and the state of single speed bikes

[Richard Rose]

More particularly, what else is out there with long stays & wheelbase, is fully lugged & has beautiful paint / graphics?Sent from my iPhoneOn Feb 2, 2024, at 5:16 PM, Edwin W  wrote:I like single speed bikes, many like single speed bikes. The simplicity, the possibility of fixed gear, it is the epitome of biking for me, I think.I like the idea of the roaduno. So far it looks like it will have 700c/622 wheel size, long reach side pull brakes. Rear facing drop outs. Those are the main factors to think about, because stem length, handlebar and lever type, fenders or not, dynamo or not, are flexible on most bikes.What is the competition, and what are they offering?Crust Lightning bolt single speed. 650b wheels with anti posts. BMC Monstercross. 700c wheels and cantilever posts. But that has 135mm rear spacing, so not exactly built for single speed.What else is out there that can take a 38mm (or so) tire with a fender?Edwin



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