Re: [RBW] Wisdom or Cowardice, how fast to go downhill?

2012-07-15 Thread jimD 
Well said!
-JImD
On Jul 14, 2012, at 8:21 PM, Cyclofiend wrote:

> At the risk of sounding all touchy-feely-west-coasty, if you don't "feel" it, 
> that's a huge warning sign.
> 
> For example, there's this little widget section on the nearby singletrack 
> where things got rooty and rocky with last winter's rains. I've ridden and 
> cleared that section year after year on a wide variety of bikes.  But this 
> spring after a long time off that trail, I was tootling around on the 
> Quickbeam (running fixed )and made the corner and things just felt off - 
> didn't feel settled on the bike, felt off line and was looking at the 
> problems rather than the line.
> 
> I pulled up, braked and walked. And since then I've hoofed it over that 
> section.  Been riding too many road miles and just not feeling that settled.  
> That is making me overthink things and until my brain just shuts up on the 
> approach, I'll probably continue to hoof it.
> 
> I think my point is that the flow - whether on a trail or road is something 
> you have to feel.  If you are looking forward to the next turn or drop or 
> tricky bit, and you can relax enough to let your technique kick in, you are 
> much, much better off than tightening up, fighting the bike, the road surface 
> and your fight/flight response.
> 
> Around here, there are always climbs and descents.  Today was reasonably flat 
> circuit, but somewhere in there, my gadget tells me I hit 37 mph (and just to 
> be clear, I lack the engine to do that on the flats). But, on the Hlsen, on 
> the pavement, on the Jack Browns, on a bike that is dusty but mechanically 
> happy, it never felt like I was pushing it.
> 
> In my experience, that moment when you feel out of sorts is a very tricky 
> time. The real risk is overcorrecting - grabbing a handful of brake or 
> stiffening up can make a whole bunch of bad things happen very, very quickly. 
>   Your experience and your momentum will actually get you through most 
> "problems", but you need to be processing things with no delay.
> 
> Hope that makes some sense.
> 
> - Jim / Cyclofiend.com / [email protected]
> 
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Re: [RBW] Wisdom or Cowardice, how fast to go downhill?

2012-07-14 Thread Cyclofiend 
At the risk of sounding all touchy-feely-west-coasty, if you don't  
"feel" it, that's a huge warning sign.


For example, there's this little widget section on the nearby  
singletrack where things got rooty and rocky with last winter's rains.  
I've ridden and cleared that section year after year on a wide variety  
of bikes.  But this spring after a long time off that trail, I was  
tootling around on the Quickbeam (running fixed )and made the corner  
and things just felt off - didn't feel settled on the bike, felt off  
line and was looking at the problems rather than the line.


I pulled up, braked and walked. And since then I've hoofed it over  
that section.  Been riding too many road miles and just not feeling  
that settled.  That is making me overthink things and until my brain  
just shuts up on the approach, I'll probably continue to hoof it.


I think my point is that the flow - whether on a trail or road is  
something you have to feel.  If you are looking forward to the next  
turn or drop or tricky bit, and you can relax enough to let your  
technique kick in, you are much, much better off than tightening up,  
fighting the bike, the road surface and your fight/flight response.


Around here, there are always climbs and descents.  Today was  
reasonably flat circuit, but somewhere in there, my gadget tells me I  
hit 37 mph (and just to be clear, I lack the engine to do that on the  
flats). But, on the Hlsen, on the pavement, on the Jack Browns, on a  
bike that is dusty but mechanically happy, it never felt like I was  
pushing it.


In my experience, that moment when you feel out of sorts is a very  
tricky time. The real risk is overcorrecting - grabbing a handful of  
brake or stiffening up can make a whole bunch of bad things happen  
very, very quickly.   Your experience and your momentum will actually  
get you through most "problems", but you need to be processing things  
with no delay.


Hope that makes some sense.

- Jim / Cyclofiend.com / [email protected]

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Re: [RBW] Wisdom or Cowardice, how fast to go downhill?

2012-07-13 Thread Joe Bernard 
I did 45 on a long-wheelbase recumbent. It was disturbingly uneventful. 
That chopper position and huge distance between the wheels makes for a 
pretty serene experience at high speed. When I glanced at the speedo and 
saw that number, I realized this might be a good time to start dragging 
them brakes a bit..
 

On Friday, July 13, 2012 7:50:23 PM UTC-7, Thomas Lynn Skean wrote:

> Goodness me! I know some people dig that sort of thing. Go for it! But if 
> you see *me* going 40mph, call the authorities! It'll mean I've lost 
> control of my bike, body, and mind. Without intervention, tragedy will 
> ensue.
>
> Since you asked... I'd say "wisdom".
>
> Yours,
> Thomas Lynn Skean
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Wisdom or Cowardice, how fast to go downhill?

2012-07-13 Thread Thomas Lynn Skean 
Goodness me! I know some people dig that sort of thing. Go for it! But if you 
see *me* going 40mph, call the authorities! It'll mean I've lost control of my 
bike, body, and mind. Without intervention, tragedy will ensue.

Since you asked... I'd say "wisdom".

Yours,
Thomas Lynn Skean

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Re: [RBW] Wisdom or Cowardice, how fast to go downhill?

2012-07-13 Thread Eric Platt 
Will join in and say it's wisdom.  Especially given a 20 percent grade and
poor pavement at that point.  One or the other, maybe fear, both together,
preserving one's hide.

Not sure I've evern been above 40 mph.  Aren't a lot of hills in this area
long and/or steep enough.  Might want to try a higher speed someday, but I
start getting a mental picture of an elephant on a kids bike and that will
keep me in check.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN




On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 6:20 PM, jimD  wrote:

> It strikes me that misunderstanding the  nature of the stoker's screaming
> could have serious ramifications for domestic bliss.
>
> That's funny!
>
> -JimD
>
> On Jul 13, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
>
>
> On Friday, July 13, 2012 11:14:33 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> . Fortunately my fantastic recovery
>> skills ( or my guardian angel) kept me from ploughing into the curb at
>> 37 mph.
>>
>>
>> Patrick, your comments about angels reminds me of two rides  I have done
>> down the Appalachian Gap road.  It starts off very steeply then settles
>> into  a 10-14 % grade, with  four or five hairpin switchbacks.  I went up
>> there, about 40 up hill miles from my home, the first time I got my
>> Rambouillet on the road.  I was having an exhilarating ride down,  using
>> the whole road, when a voice said, "Michael, this is nuts, you have no idea
>> what's around the next corner.  I took the next turn slower and close to
>> the inside line.  Sure enough the rare car came up and around the next
>> turn.
>>
>
>The next time I rode to that top was to see the conclusion of the Green
> Mountain Stage Race on a cold, dank Sept. day.  After the race I pulled on
> a rain jacket and headed down the mountain, just behind a guy on a CF
> racing frame, in a lycra kit.  He was flying and I decided not to try to
> stay with him through the turns, then sprinted to catch his wheel on the
> straight downhill sections.  Finally we both turned off onto the 2-3% grade
> for the 10 miles into Richmond.  The rider turned out to be Bill Sorrell,
> Vermont's AG.  He was an old mountain biker and new to  road riding, but he
> sure could go downhill!  We had a great conversation about a couple of hi
> profile cases I was especially interested in.
>
> BTW,  about downhill speed in generalexcept in the mountains most of
> VT is rolling hills, and the best way to survive is through sheer
> aggression,  barrel downhill and hope your momentum will carry you over the
> next hill.  That said, I can't dispute all those who advocate for the
> wisdom of a little fear.
>
> After three years on the tandem I finally discovered my wife's screaming
> didn't mean she was having an orgasm!  But in reality I never let it all
> out on a road I don't know completely by heart.
>
> So, yes, i definitely believe in angels.
>
> Michael
>
>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you."
>>
>> Flannery O'Connor
>>
>> -
>> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
>> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
>> http://resumespecialties.com/**index.html
>> -
>>
>
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Re: [RBW] Wisdom or Cowardice, how fast to go downhill?

2012-07-13 Thread jimD 
It strikes me that misunderstanding the  nature of the stoker's screaming could 
have serious ramifications for domestic bliss.

That's funny!

-JimD
On Jul 13, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Michael Hechmer wrote:

> 
> 
> On Friday, July 13, 2012 11:14:33 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> . Fortunately my fantastic recovery 
> skills ( or my guardian angel) kept me from ploughing into the curb at 
> 37 mph. 
> 
> 
> Patrick, your comments about angels reminds me of two rides  I have done down 
> the Appalachian Gap road.  It starts off very steeply then settles into  a 
> 10-14 % grade, with  four or five hairpin switchbacks.  I went up there, 
> about 40 up hill miles from my home, the first time I got my Rambouillet on 
> the road.  I was having an exhilarating ride down,  using the whole road, 
> when a voice said, "Michael, this is nuts, you have no idea what's around the 
> next corner.  I took the next turn slower and close to the inside line.  Sure 
> enough the rare car came up and around the next turn.  
> 
>The next time I rode to that top was to see the conclusion of the Green 
> Mountain Stage Race on a cold, dank Sept. day.  After the race I pulled on a 
> rain jacket and headed down the mountain, just behind a guy on a CF racing 
> frame, in a lycra kit.  He was flying and I decided not to try to stay with 
> him through the turns, then sprinted to catch his wheel on the straight 
> downhill sections.  Finally we both turned off onto the 2-3% grade for the 10 
> miles into Richmond.  The rider turned out to be Bill Sorrell, Vermont's AG.  
> He was an old mountain biker and new to  road riding, but he sure could go 
> downhill!  We had a great conversation about a couple of hi profile cases I 
> was especially interested in.
> 
> BTW,  about downhill speed in generalexcept in the mountains most of VT 
> is rolling hills, and the best way to survive is through sheer aggression,  
> barrel downhill and hope your momentum will carry you over the next hill.  
> That said, I can't dispute all those who advocate for the wisdom of a little 
> fear.
> 
> After three years on the tandem I finally discovered my wife's screaming 
> didn't mean she was having an orgasm!  But in reality I never let it all out 
> on a road I don't know completely by heart.
> 
> So, yes, i definitely believe in angels.
> 
> Michael
>  
> 
> 
> -- 
> "Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you." 
> 
> Flannery O'Connor 
> 
> - 
> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA 
> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW 
> http://resumespecialties.com/index.html 
> - 
> 
> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Wisdom or Cowardice, how fast to go downhill?

2012-07-13 Thread jimD 
Well, that old saying, 'discretion is the better part of valor' works for me in 
situations like this.
Anxiety is the enemy of stability. 

I know about this more from skiing than I do from cycling.
If I feel in control and and am calm I'm more stable than when I'm anxious.
I'm a lot happier exploring this boundary on skis than on bikes. Exceeding the 
envelope is generally less destructive
and painful on skis and snow than it is on bikes and tarmac.

Thinking about it in terms of chicken or brave is a counterproductive path for 
me.

If things are feeling squirrely, they probably are.
-JimD
…how I roll, or slide.

On Jul 13, 2012, at 7:53 AM, Michael Hechmer wrote:

> I'm not a particularly anxious person, although I do get anxious when someone 
> compliments my courage!  I regularly downhill at 40+ mph and have hit 50 on 
> good pavement and reasonably straight mountain descents without too much 
> anxiety, but one hill this year has me spooked.
> 
> One of my favorite routes is a 23 mile ride with 1400 feet of climbing that 
> is equally divided among lightly traveled & good dirt roads, mostly descent 
> chip & seal town roads, and a third of moderately traveled state roads.  It 
> provides beautiful pastoral scenery, a good view of the whole of the Mt. 
> Mansfield ridge line, and a stretch along the Lamoille River, including the 
> impressive Fairfax Falls. In the past I have always ridden it counter 
> clockwise, which includes a beast of a 3K climb, including a K of 20%+ grade 
> right in the middle.  This year I reversed direction and have been riding it 
> clockwise on my Rambouillet, with a very nice set of Grand Bois Cerf tires.  
> The first time down it I discovered the pavement on the steepest section was 
> not in good condition, no pot holes or heaves, just lots of broken chip and 
> seal.  The bumping was quite dramatic and I felt like one good hole could 
> toss me over the handle bars.  Garmin was showing 47.5 when I lightly 
> squeezed the rear brake.  Fortunately the Paul's Racers have excellent 
> modulation and I safely slowed enough to feel OK.
> 
> But when I got to the bottom I asked myself why I chickened out, since I was 
> just fine, and thought that the next time I would lay off the brakes.  But 
> this hasn't happened.  Instead each time I have gone down it, I have gone 
> slower and slower.  Today I took out my Trek, which has 32 mm TServes to see 
> if I would feel more comfortable at higher speeds with the softer tire.  But 
> when I got to the top of the hill I realized I had no real taste for the 
> experiment.  I went down at 25, until I could see the good pavement at the 
> bottom and then I let it roll out to 39.
> 
> So I ask myself, is this wisdom, or just yielding to irrational anxiety.
> 
> Michael
> Westford, VT
> 
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Re: [RBW] Wisdom or Cowardice, how fast to go downhill?

2012-07-13 Thread René Sterental 
I think it's your bike computer not being able to keep track of the wheel
revolutions and just not displaying the actual value of how much fun that
ride is... keep the bike computer out of loyalty for its otherwise faithful
service and keep your eye out for a funometer computer to provide those
really high numbers that describe the exhilaration of your descents.

Otherwise I think you're just being wise, which is simply an abbreviation
of cowardice hinged around the "w"... :-)

Coincidentally, all my bike computers and GPS units share the same
mysterious bug on my descents... :-)

René

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Re: [RBW] Wisdom or Cowardice, how fast to go downhill?

2012-07-13 Thread Michael Hechmer 


On Friday, July 13, 2012 11:14:33 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:




 

> . Fortunately my fantastic recovery 
> skills ( or my guardian angel) kept me from ploughing into the curb at 
> 37 mph. 
>
>
> Patrick, your comments about angels reminds me of two rides  I have done 
> down the Appalachian Gap road.  It starts off very steeply then settles 
> into  a 10-14 % grade, with  four or five hairpin switchbacks.  I went up 
> there, about 40 up hill miles from my home, the first time I got my 
> Rambouillet on the road.  I was having an exhilarating ride down,  using 
> the whole road, when a voice said, "Michael, this is nuts, you have no idea 
> what's around the next corner.  I took the next turn slower and close to 
> the inside line.  Sure enough the rare car came up and around the next 
> turn.  
>

   The next time I rode to that top was to see the conclusion of the Green 
Mountain Stage Race on a cold, dank Sept. day.  After the race I pulled on 
a rain jacket and headed down the mountain, just behind a guy on a CF 
racing frame, in a lycra kit.  He was flying and I decided not to try to 
stay with him through the turns, then sprinted to catch his wheel on the 
straight downhill sections.  Finally we both turned off onto the 2-3% grade 
for the 10 miles into Richmond.  The rider turned out to be Bill Sorrell, 
Vermont's AG.  He was an old mountain biker and new to  road riding, but he 
sure could go downhill!  We had a great conversation about a couple of hi 
profile cases I was especially interested in.

BTW,  about downhill speed in generalexcept in the mountains most of VT 
is rolling hills, and the best way to survive is through sheer aggression, 
 barrel downhill and hope your momentum will carry you over the next hill. 
 That said, I can't dispute all those who advocate for the wisdom of a 
little fear.

After three years on the tandem I finally discovered my wife's screaming 
didn't mean she was having an orgasm!  But in reality I never let it all 
out on a road I don't know completely by heart.

So, yes, i definitely believe in angels.

Michael
 

>
>
> -- 
> "Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you." 
>
> Flannery O'Connor 
>
> - 
> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA 
> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW 
> http://resumespecialties.com/index.html 
> - 
>

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Re: [RBW] Wisdom or Cowardice, how fast to go downhill?

2012-07-13 Thread Steve Palincsar 
On Fri, 2012-07-13 at 07:53 -0700, Michael Hechmer wrote:
> So I ask myself, is this wisdom, or just yielding to irrational
> anxiety. 

wisdom



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Re: [RBW] Wisdom or Cowardice, how fast to go downhill?

2012-07-13 Thread PATRICK MOORE 
My principle is, always yield to your anxieties. Really, from so much
fixed gear riding, my descending skills, never very good, are now
pretty atrophied -- hell, on the steepest downhills I go slower on the
fixies than I do on level ground.

I've hit 50 on a steep, long downhill straight with a howling tailwind
(on knobbies -- on the flat, a cardboard box was pacing me thanks to
the wind) but last year I nearly bought the farm when I decided to let
it all hang out on a very steep, winding 4/10 mile downhill riding the
Fargo with flaccid Big Apples. Just at the sharpest bend, the rear
sidewall began to tuck under a bit, a danger I compounded by squeezing
the - powerful disk - rear brake. Fortunately my fantastic recovery
skills ( or my guardian angel) kept me from ploughing into the curb at
37 mph.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 8:53 AM, Michael Hechmer  wrote:
> I'm not a particularly anxious person, although I do get anxious when
> someone compliments my courage!  I regularly downhill at 40+ mph and have
> hit 50 on good pavement and reasonably straight mountain descents without
> too much anxiety, but one hill this year has me spooked.
>
> One of my favorite routes is a 23 mile ride with 1400 feet of climbing that
> is equally divided among lightly traveled & good dirt roads, mostly descent
> chip & seal town roads, and a third of moderately traveled state roads.  It
> provides beautiful pastoral scenery, a good view of the whole of the Mt.
> Mansfield ridge line, and a stretch along the Lamoille River, including the
> impressive Fairfax Falls. In the past I have always ridden it counter
> clockwise, which includes a beast of a 3K climb, including a K of 20%+ grade
> right in the middle.  This year I reversed direction and have been riding it
> clockwise on my Rambouillet, with a very nice set of Grand Bois Cerf tires.
> The first time down it I discovered the pavement on the steepest section was
> not in good condition, no pot holes or heaves, just lots of broken chip and
> seal.  The bumping was quite dramatic and I felt like one good hole could
> toss me over the handle bars.  Garmin was showing 47.5 when I lightly
> squeezed the rear brake.  Fortunately the Paul's Racers have excellent
> modulation and I safely slowed enough to feel OK.
>
> But when I got to the bottom I asked myself why I chickened out, since I was
> just fine, and thought that the next time I would lay off the brakes.  But
> this hasn't happened.  Instead each time I have gone down it, I have gone
> slower and slower.  Today I took out my Trek, which has 32 mm TServes to see
> if I would feel more comfortable at higher speeds with the softer tire.  But
> when I got to the top of the hill I realized I had no real taste for the
> experiment.  I went down at 25, until I could see the good pavement at the
> bottom and then I let it roll out to 39.
>
> So I ask myself, is this wisdom, or just yielding to irrational anxiety.
>
> Michael
> Westford, VT
>
> --
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-- 
"Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you."

Flannery O'Connor

-
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-

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Re: [RBW] Wisdom or Cowardice, how fast to go downhill?

2012-07-13 Thread Kenneth Stagg 
I'll vote for wisdom.  If you don't feel comfortable with the speed on
a particular section of road then take it slow there.  Discretion,
valor and all of that.  A rough road will have me taking it easy every
time even though I'm running medium pressure 26x1.5s.  I surely love
flying down a decent road, though :)

-Ken

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Michael Hechmer  wrote:
> I'm not a particularly anxious person, although I do get anxious when
> someone compliments my courage!  I regularly downhill at 40+ mph and have
> hit 50 on good pavement and reasonably straight mountain descents without
> too much anxiety, but one hill this year has me spooked.
>
> One of my favorite routes is a 23 mile ride with 1400 feet of climbing that
> is equally divided among lightly traveled & good dirt roads, mostly descent
> chip & seal town roads, and a third of moderately traveled state roads.  It
> provides beautiful pastoral scenery, a good view of the whole of the Mt.
> Mansfield ridge line, and a stretch along the Lamoille River, including the
> impressive Fairfax Falls. In the past I have always ridden it counter
> clockwise, which includes a beast of a 3K climb, including a K of 20%+ grade
> right in the middle.  This year I reversed direction and have been riding it
> clockwise on my Rambouillet, with a very nice set of Grand Bois Cerf tires.
> The first time down it I discovered the pavement on the steepest section was
> not in good condition, no pot holes or heaves, just lots of broken chip and
> seal.  The bumping was quite dramatic and I felt like one good hole could
> toss me over the handle bars.  Garmin was showing 47.5 when I lightly
> squeezed the rear brake.  Fortunately the Paul's Racers have excellent
> modulation and I safely slowed enough to feel OK.
>
> But when I got to the bottom I asked myself why I chickened out, since I was
> just fine, and thought that the next time I would lay off the brakes.  But
> this hasn't happened.  Instead each time I have gone down it, I have gone
> slower and slower.  Today I took out my Trek, which has 32 mm TServes to see
> if I would feel more comfortable at higher speeds with the softer tire.  But
> when I got to the top of the hill I realized I had no real taste for the
> experiment.  I went down at 25, until I could see the good pavement at the
> bottom and then I let it roll out to 39.
>
> So I ask myself, is this wisdom, or just yielding to irrational anxiety.
>
> Michael
> Westford, VT
>
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