Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Daniel Jackson]

I only wish this shifter could be used on pods...

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Clayton.sf]

Shortly after this thread paused I broke my duraace dt 10 speed shifter. I 
ended up replacing it with that diacompe 10 speed / 11 speed dt friction 
shifter Justin mentioned two post prior. 

Just rode a century with it on Sunday. Worked amazingly well combined with a 
short cage shimano zee clutch derailer. About half way tbrough the ride I 
started liking it even better than the previous indexed setup.

 Thanks Justin for the info and inspiration! I am pleasantly surprised!

CLAYTON Scott
SF, CA

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Jon BALER]

Keep in mind Shimano 10 speed road and mountain have different amount of 
pull.  10 speed road has the same total pull as 9 speed, so the pull for 
each shift is less.   10 speed mountain (Dynasis) has significantly more 
total pull, and the pull for each shift is greater.

When Shimano dynasis first came out, it seemed like a big pain as old 
friction shifters were not compatible (unlike previous 7-8-9 transitions). 
  However, in the last few years a number of options have came out for 10 
speed dynasis/mountain and friction shifting .  Velo Orange Dia-Compe, 
Microshift, Soma/IRD, and Gevenalle all have options whether you like 
downtube, trigger/thumbie, or integrated with brake levers.

I've found 10 speed mountain/Dynasis to shift better than 9 speed, since it 
actually has more tolerance for cable pull.

On Saturday, September 17, 2016 at 6:01:22 PM UTC-4, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> Last summer at a tandem rally I chatted with a couple who had toured from 
> the Maine coast into the adirondack with 10 speed friction.  He reported 
> that on balance I found it easier and more reliable than indexed shifting. 
>   Tandems, of course, have mega long cables which can easily throw indexing 
> out of alignment.
>
> Michael
>
> On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 7:38:16 PM UTC-4, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>>
>> And yes, I am glad to confirm that the Silver shifters pull plenty of 
>> cable for 10 speed on a standard pull derailleur. Don't know about a 
>> Dynasys one. I'd been planning to try it, but I think I'm gonna abandon 
>> that project now that I have the Velo Routier.
>>
>> I'll go so far as to say that 10 speed with Silver shifters is my current 
>> favorite drivetrain / shifter setup at the moment. And Cycles Toussaint 
>> liked it well enough to ship it as the stock setup on their complete bikes!
>>
>>
>> Reed
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 1:56 PM, Daniel Jackson  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> My main reason for asking Clayton the question in the other thread was 
>>> just to be sure that the Silvers can actually pull enough cable to work 
>>> with 10 speed. I imagine there is no problem as overall cassette width 
>>> between 10 and 9 speed is negligible. 
>>>
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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Michael Hechmer]

Last summer at a tandem rally I chatted with a couple who had toured from 
the Maine coast into the adirondack with 10 speed friction.  He reported 
that on balance I found it easier and more reliable than indexed shifting. 
  Tandems, of course, have mega long cables which can easily throw indexing 
out of alignment.

Michael

On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 7:38:16 PM UTC-4, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> And yes, I am glad to confirm that the Silver shifters pull plenty of 
> cable for 10 speed on a standard pull derailleur. Don't know about a 
> Dynasys one. I'd been planning to try it, but I think I'm gonna abandon 
> that project now that I have the Velo Routier.
>
> I'll go so far as to say that 10 speed with Silver shifters is my current 
> favorite drivetrain / shifter setup at the moment. And Cycles Toussaint 
> liked it well enough to ship it as the stock setup on their complete bikes!
>
>
> Reed
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 1:56 PM, Daniel Jackson  > wrote:
>
>> My main reason for asking Clayton the question in the other thread was 
>> just to be sure that the Silvers can actually pull enough cable to work 
>> with 10 speed. I imagine there is no problem as overall cassette width 
>> between 10 and 9 speed is negligible. 
>>
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>
>

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Justin August]

http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/shifting-freewheels-cassettes/shifters/dia-compe-ene-11s-dt-shifters.html

Plus there's these 11speed friction shifters. 

-Justin

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Clayton.sf]

Interesting indeed! Might be time to revisit. 

Another interesting thing is that on Paul thumbing mounts Shimano 8 speed 
barend shifters pull enough cable to sweep the whole cassette 8, 9, or 10 speed 
with a Dynasys rear derailed. But, when mounted on the bar end pods they come 
up short on the outermost cog. 

Seems like it is not so much the shifter rather than the "external" stop that 
limits compatibility for friction shifting mixing and matching road and Dynasys 
components.

Clayton Scott
SF, CA

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Reed Kennedy]

And yes, I am glad to confirm that the Silver shifters pull plenty of cable
for 10 speed on a standard pull derailleur. Don't know about a Dynasys one.
I'd been planning to try it, but I think I'm gonna abandon that project now
that I have the Velo Routier.

I'll go so far as to say that 10 speed with Silver shifters is my current
favorite drivetrain / shifter setup at the moment. And Cycles Toussaint
liked it well enough to ship it as the stock setup on their complete bikes!


Reed

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 1:56 PM, Daniel Jackson <
daniel.seth.jack...@gmail.com> wrote:

> My main reason for asking Clayton the question in the other thread was
> just to be sure that the Silvers can actually pull enough cable to work
> with 10 speed. I imagine there is no problem as overall cassette width
> between 10 and 9 speed is negligible.
>
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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Reed Kennedy]

Good call Daniel! I bet that's why. It had never occurred to me that
a narrower chain and cassette might be beneficial, but here we are. Neat!

I'm happy to leave my other bikes on 8 and 9 speed, though.


Reed

On Friday, September 16, 2016, Daniel Jackson 
wrote:

> This is fascinating - I have heard both that friction shifting 10 sp is
> easier and that its harder than 9 sp. The main reason I've heard for the
> former is that there is less space between gears so you're never "out" of
> gear as you might be on a 9 speed.
>
> On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 2:08:41 PM UTC-4, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Clayton.sf  wrote:
>>
>>> I don't use friction with 10 speed. Too fiddly especially when tired.
>>> That is not a function of the type of friction shifter though.
>>>
>>
>> Just a quick counterpoint: I recently bought a Velo Routier. It came
>> stock with Silver shifters, a 10 speed 12-28 cassette, and a Microshift
>> Centos rear derailleur like this one: https://www.amazon.com/mi
>> croSHIFT-Derailleur-RD-R57SE-Bicycle-Compatible/dp/B014L49Z
>> ME/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8=1474048526=8-3=centos+derailleur
>>
>> I was originally apprehensive about this combination for exactly the
>> reasons Clayton describes. But taking it for a ride, I was surprised how
>> well it worked. It was very difficult to find "bad" shift lever positions.
>> Nine times out of ten whatever position I'd stick the lever in would just
>> find a gear and work great with no trimming. The tenth time I'd just trim a
>> bit. It worked so well I came to really enjoy the downtube shifters.
>>
>> This is markedly different than my other friction bikes which require
>> more active and more frequent trimming (and all have barcons because of
>> it). Perhaps the derailleur is doing something special? Maybe with the
>> floating top pulley? I don't know.
>>
>> I later realized that Fred over on the 650B list rode the same bike
>> (literally the one I later bought) and made a similar observation:
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/650b/6vYkUkoO_l4/T7gcNitEuC4J
>>
>> Last note: This bike and derailleur only have a few hundred miles on
>> them, tops, so I can't speak to the longevity of this Microshift
>> derailleur. But it sure is working great now!
>>
>>
>> Reed
>>
>>
>>> On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 3:26:06 AM UTC-7, Daniel Jackson wrote:

 Clayton,

 Do you use Silvers to shift your 10 speeds?

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Patrick Moore]

I don't know if the road Microshift rd I used was a Centos; I expect not,
because it was several years old and had no big Centos on it. But whatever
it was, it was the very best shifting rd I've ever used, and shifted 9
mismatched with Silver BESs better than the current 8 speed Dura Ace does.

I'm pleased to see that others can shift 10 in friction without problem.
Must try that myself one day.

On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Reed Kennedy  wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Clayton.sf  wrote:
>
>> I don't use friction with 10 speed. Too fiddly especially when tired.
>> That is not a function of the type of friction shifter though.
>>
>
> Just a quick counterpoint: I recently bought a Velo Routier. It came stock
> with Silver shifters, a 10 speed 12-28 cassette, and a Microshift Centos
> rear derailleur like this one: https://www.amazon.com/
> microSHIFT-Derailleur-RD-R57SE-Bicycle-Compatible/dp/
> B014L49ZME/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8=1474048526=8-3&
> keywords=centos+derailleur
>
> I was originally apprehensive about this combination for exactly the
> reasons Clayton describes. But taking it for a ride, I was surprised how
> well it worked. It was very difficult to find "bad" shift lever positions.
> Nine times out of ten whatever position I'd stick the lever in would just
> find a gear and work great with no trimming. The tenth time I'd just trim a
> bit. It worked so well I came to really enjoy the downtube shifters.
>
> This is markedly different than my other friction bikes which require more
> active and more frequent trimming (and all have barcons because of it).
> Perhaps the derailleur is doing something special? Maybe with the floating
> top pulley? I don't know.
>
> I later realized that Fred over on the 650B list rode the same bike
> (literally the one I later bought) and made a similar observation:
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/650b/6vYkUkoO_l4/T7gcNitEuC4J
>
> Last note: This bike and derailleur only have a few hundred miles on them,
> tops, so I can't speak to the longevity of this Microshift derailleur. But
> it sure is working great now!
>
>
>
>

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Lungimsam]

My first Rivendell was a Bleriot with Ultegra groupset and shimano bar 
ends. Shifting was horrible in friction mode with 10 speed cassette. Crisp 
with the SIS function, though. 

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Daniel Jackson]

My main reason for asking Clayton the question in the other thread was just 
to be sure that the Silvers can actually pull enough cable to work with 10 
speed. I imagine there is no problem as overall cassette width between 10 
and 9 speed is negligible. 

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Daniel Jackson]

This is fascinating - I have heard both that friction shifting 10 sp is 
easier and that its harder than 9 sp. The main reason I've heard for the 
former is that there is less space between gears so you're never "out" of 
gear as you might be on a 9 speed. 

On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 2:08:41 PM UTC-4, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Clayton.sf  > wrote:
>
>> I don't use friction with 10 speed. Too fiddly especially when tired. 
>> That is not a function of the type of friction shifter though. 
>>
>
> Just a quick counterpoint: I recently bought a Velo Routier. It came stock 
> with Silver shifters, a 10 speed 12-28 cassette, and a Microshift Centos 
> rear derailleur like this one: 
> https://www.amazon.com/microSHIFT-Derailleur-RD-R57SE-Bicycle-Compatible/dp/B014L49ZME/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8=1474048526=8-3=centos+derailleur
>
> I was originally apprehensive about this combination for exactly the 
> reasons Clayton describes. But taking it for a ride, I was surprised how 
> well it worked. It was very difficult to find "bad" shift lever positions. 
> Nine times out of ten whatever position I'd stick the lever in would just 
> find a gear and work great with no trimming. The tenth time I'd just trim a 
> bit. It worked so well I came to really enjoy the downtube shifters.
>
> This is markedly different than my other friction bikes which require more 
> active and more frequent trimming (and all have barcons because of it). 
> Perhaps the derailleur is doing something special? Maybe with the floating 
> top pulley? I don't know.
>
> I later realized that Fred over on the 650B list rode the same bike 
> (literally the one I later bought) and made a similar observation: 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/650b/6vYkUkoO_l4/T7gcNitEuC4J
>  
> Last note: This bike and derailleur only have a few hundred miles on them, 
> tops, so I can't speak to the longevity of this Microshift derailleur. But 
> it sure is working great now!
>
>
> Reed
>  
>
>> On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 3:26:06 AM UTC-7, Daniel Jackson wrote:
>>>
>>> Clayton,
>>>
>>> Do you use Silvers to shift your 10 speeds?
>>>
>> -- 
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>>
>
>

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Re: Friction shifting 10 speeds with Silver shifters (Was: Re: [RBW] Turkey Vulture Gearing 101)

[Philip Kim]

2x10 friction here with SLX RD. I use Microshift shifters in friction mode, 
I've used 8,9, and 10 speed friction. After a few shifts I get used to the 
cable pull and never think about it again.

On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 2:08:41 PM UTC-4, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Clayton.sf  > wrote:
>
>> I don't use friction with 10 speed. Too fiddly especially when tired. 
>> That is not a function of the type of friction shifter though. 
>>
>
> Just a quick counterpoint: I recently bought a Velo Routier. It came stock 
> with Silver shifters, a 10 speed 12-28 cassette, and a Microshift Centos 
> rear derailleur like this one: 
> https://www.amazon.com/microSHIFT-Derailleur-RD-R57SE-Bicycle-Compatible/dp/B014L49ZME/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8=1474048526=8-3=centos+derailleur
>
> I was originally apprehensive about this combination for exactly the 
> reasons Clayton describes. But taking it for a ride, I was surprised how 
> well it worked. It was very difficult to find "bad" shift lever positions. 
> Nine times out of ten whatever position I'd stick the lever in would just 
> find a gear and work great with no trimming. The tenth time I'd just trim a 
> bit. It worked so well I came to really enjoy the downtube shifters.
>
> This is markedly different than my other friction bikes which require more 
> active and more frequent trimming (and all have barcons because of it). 
> Perhaps the derailleur is doing something special? Maybe with the floating 
> top pulley? I don't know.
>
> I later realized that Fred over on the 650B list rode the same bike 
> (literally the one I later bought) and made a similar observation: 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/650b/6vYkUkoO_l4/T7gcNitEuC4J
>  
> Last note: This bike and derailleur only have a few hundred miles on them, 
> tops, so I can't speak to the longevity of this Microshift derailleur. But 
> it sure is working great now!
>
>
> Reed
>  
>
>> On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 3:26:06 AM UTC-7, Daniel Jackson wrote:
>>>
>>> Clayton,
>>>
>>> Do you use Silvers to shift your 10 speeds?
>>>
>> -- 
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>>
>
>

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