Re: [RDA-L] Showing birth and death dates

2012-01-19 Thread Adger Williams
Note that this is not peculiar to French.  (Spanish, German, Russian,
Italian,... all share this feature)

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 7:51 PM, J. McRee Elrod m...@slc.bc.ca wrote:

 Friend Hal from down under has pointed out yet another problem with
 RDA words rather than hyphens, when only one of birth or death date is
 known.  The words in French would differ with gender:

 ... the need to distinguish gender in French: né masc., née  fem. for
 'born', mort/morte for 'died'.


   __   __   J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
  {__  |   / Special Libraries Cataloguing   HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
  ___} |__ \__




-- 
Adger Williams
Colgate University Library
315-228-7310
awilli...@colgate.edu


Re: [RDA-L] Showing birth and death dates

2012-01-19 Thread Benjamin A Abrahamse
While sine nomine and the like are Latinisms that never moved out of the 
world of bibliography and so appear to some users as obscure or confusing, I 
would argue that circa has become part of the English language.

The OED certainly supports that argument 
(http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/33169?redirectedFrom=circa#eid – subs. req.): 
Around, round about, about. The prep. is often used in English with dates, as 
circa 1400 (c1400).

--Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Adger Williams
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 11:14 AM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Showing birth and death dates

Note that this is not peculiar to French.  (Spanish, German, Russian, 
Italian,... all share this feature)
On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 7:51 PM, J. McRee Elrod 
m...@slc.bc.camailto:m...@slc.bc.ca wrote:
Friend Hal from down under has pointed out yet another problem with
RDA words rather than hyphens, when only one of birth or death date is
known.  The words in French would differ with gender:

... the need to distinguish gender in French: né masc., née  fem. for
'born', mort/morte for 'died'.


  __   __   J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.camailto:m...@slc.bc.ca)
 {__  |   / Special Libraries Cataloguing   HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
 ___} |__ \__



--
Adger Williams
Colgate University Library
315-228-7310
awilli...@colgate.edumailto:awilli...@colgate.edu


Re: [RDA-L] RDA question about dates

2012-01-19 Thread Jonathan Rochkind

On 1/18/2012 3:21 PM, John Hostage wrote:

Maybe the idea of hard-wiring dates and other additions into access points has 
outlived its usefulness.  It made sense in a card catalog, but maybe not so 
much in an online world.  Dates and other information can be carried as 
separate elements in an authority record and combined as needed for display, as 
in the German authority file, e.g. http://d-nb.info/gnd/119545373/about/html


Yes.

In a card catalog environment, a single string is used to serve as 
_both_ the 'identifier' (used for collocation, and determining that all 
records belong to the exact same 'heading' entity); AND as a 
user-displayable display string.


This has a lot to do with the nature and form of our headings, that they 
were created in such an environment.


In a computer environment, this is no longer the case.

Now, to be sure, figuring out most effective and efficient (for our 
users, and for our back end workflows) way to do things in the new 
environment is, well, something. If, for instance, you have two people 
with the same name, you still don't want to show two identical headings, 
they need to be disambiguated somehow in their display to the user.  
Life dates may or may not be the optimal way to do that, in a 
displayable string -- it's probably not best for our users, but what 
might be best for our users might be too hard for us to do? Maybe field 
of activity or best known work, maybe different for different 
people?.  Life dates are _definitely_ not the best way to do that in the 
actual _identifier_, because identifiers work best when they _never 
change_, and life dates change (when someoen dies, or when we discover 
we had their birth date wrong, etc), which causes real and serious 
maintenance and linking problems.





--
John Hostage
Authorities and Database Integrity Librarian
Langdell Hall
Harvard Law School Library
Cambridge, MA 02138
host...@law.harvard.edu
+(1)(617) 495-3974 (voice)
+(1)(617) 496-4409 (fax)
http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/


-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of J. McRee Elrod
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 14:29
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] RDA question about dates

Thomas quoted:


A person known to have been born 100 or more years before the
formulation or re-examination of a heading should be assumed no
longer to be living.

A person born 50 years before being entered, will in five decades have
been born 100 years earlier.  I ve been cataloguing since 1953!

Something which changes over time* should not be standard practice.

Hyphens before and after is such a better solution, in terms of
consistency, ease of machine manipulation, and suitability in
multilingual situations.


__   __   J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
   {__  |   / Special Libraries Cataloguing   HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
   ___} |__ \__


*Concepts of time vary.  When I was 60 and my grandson was 6, his
mother explained to me that one year was 1/60th of my life, but 1/6th
of his.  Of course a year seemed longer to him.  At 80, a decade seems
but a moment.


Re: [RDA-L] Showing birth and death dates

2012-01-19 Thread J. McRee Elrod
Adgar Williams said: 

Note that this [different gender forms of born and died] is not
peculiar to French.  (Spanish, German, Russian, Italian,... all
share this feature)

In bilingual Canada, French is of course of most concern to us.

Let's hope LAC and EURIG has the good sense to reject this practice, and
adopt hyphens before and after single dates or death and birth.


   __   __   J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
  {__  |   / Special Libraries Cataloguing   HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
  ___} |__ \__