Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?
RDA does not address this, but there is an LC-PCC Policy statement that catalogers may follow if they like and should if they're creating PCC records: LC-PCC PS for 1.7.1[http://access.rdatoolkit.org/images/rdalink.png]http://access.rdatoolkit.org/document.php?id=rdachp1target=rda1-787#rda1-787 GENERAL GUIDELINES ON TRANSCRIPTION ... Punctuation in Notes LC practice/PCC practice: ... 3. Square brackets. Do not use square brackets in notes except when they are used in quoted data. EXAMPLE 500http://desktop.loc.gov/saved/Mabibl_500 ## $aTypes of prayer wheels found in south central Tibet, by Mei Lin: pages 310-375. Not ... pages [310]-[375]. 500http://desktop.loc.gov/saved/Mabibl_500 ## $a2090245PMA--Page 4 of cover. Not ... -Page [4] of cover. This seems fine to me and I've been following it in my RDA cataloging: Includes bibliographic references (pages 67-69). not Includes bibliographic references (pages [67]-69). In my opinion it isn't crucial in this context that the reader of the record know that the number 67 doesn't appear on page 67. What is crucial is that the reader know that there's a bibliography and that it's three pages long. Bob Robert L. Maxwell Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian Genre/Form Authorities Librarian 6728 Harold B. Lee Library Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 (801)422-5568 We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to the course which has been heretofore pursued--Eliza R. Snow, 1842. From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Benjamin A Abrahamse Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:21 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes? RDA geniuses: I know that under RDA we no longer use brackets to indicate a range of unnumbered pages or leaves in the physical description. What about in notes? RDA 1.10.4 says, Refer to passages in the resource, or in other sources, if these either support assertions made in the description but nothing about what to do if you're referring to an unnumbered page. Doing an RDA quick search for unnumbered pages brings up plenty of instructions but none (that I saw) regarding notes. E.g.: Includes bibliographic resources (pages [67]-69). or Includes bibliographic resources (unnumbered page 67-page 69). ??? Thanks, --Ben Benjamin Abrahamse Cataloging Coordinator Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems MIT Libraries 617-253-7137 inline: image001.png
Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?
You were following my mistake, which I don't (or at least I hope I don't) normally make in catalog records. Benjamin Abrahamse Cataloging Coordinator Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems MIT Libraries 617-253-7137 From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 3:25 PM To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes? Sorry, at the risk of sounding obsessive-compulsive, the customary phrase used in most U.S. cataloging is Includes bibliographical references (pages 67-69). not Includes bibliographic references (pages 67-69). as I wrote. Bob Robert L. Maxwell Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian Genre/Form Authorities Librarian 6728 Harold B. Lee Library Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 (801)422-5568 We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to the course which has been heretofore pursued--Eliza R. Snow, 1842. From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 1:05 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CAmailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes? RDA does not address this, but there is an LC-PCC Policy statement that catalogers may follow if they like and should if they're creating PCC records: LC-PCC PS for 1.7.1[http://access.rdatoolkit.org/images/rdalink.png]http://access.rdatoolkit.org/document.php?id=rdachp1target=rda1-787#rda1-787 GENERAL GUIDELINES ON TRANSCRIPTION ... Punctuation in Notes LC practice/PCC practice: ... 3. Square brackets. Do not use square brackets in notes except when they are used in quoted data. EXAMPLE 500http://desktop.loc.gov/saved/Mabibl_500 ## $aTypes of prayer wheels found in south central Tibet, by Mei Lin: pages 310-375. Not ... pages [310]-[375]. 500http://desktop.loc.gov/saved/Mabibl_500 ## $a2090245PMA--Page 4 of cover. Not ... -Page [4] of cover. This seems fine to me and I've been following it in my RDA cataloging: Includes bibliographic references (pages 67-69). not Includes bibliographic references (pages [67]-69). In my opinion it isn't crucial in this context that the reader of the record know that the number 67 doesn't appear on page 67. What is crucial is that the reader know that there's a bibliography and that it's three pages long. Bob Robert L. Maxwell Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian Genre/Form Authorities Librarian 6728 Harold B. Lee Library Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 (801)422-5568 We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to the course which has been heretofore pursued--Eliza R. Snow, 1842. From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Benjamin A Abrahamse Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:21 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CAmailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes? RDA geniuses: I know that under RDA we no longer use brackets to indicate a range of unnumbered pages or leaves in the physical description. What about in notes? RDA 1.10.4 says, Refer to passages in the resource, or in other sources, if these either support assertions made in the description but nothing about what to do if you're referring to an unnumbered page. Doing an RDA quick search for unnumbered pages brings up plenty of instructions but none (that I saw) regarding notes. E.g.: Includes bibliographic resources (pages [67]-69). or Includes bibliographic resources (unnumbered page 67-page 69). ??? Thanks, --Ben Benjamin Abrahamse Cataloging Coordinator Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems MIT Libraries 617-253-7137 inline: image001.png
Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?
At the risk of sounding even more obsessive-compulsive than Bob, I offer you this. Not everything that we thought of as 'Notes' under AACR, is a 'Note' in RDA. The example you show, comes under the category of 'Content'. Content can either be at the Work level-applying to *every* expression of the work; or at the Expression level-applying to every manifestation of the expression. Let's leave aside, for the moment, the question of whether we should be including page numbers for bibliographical references, when those references could be on different pages in different manifestations. This particular type of content is covered under 7.16 http://access.rdatoolkit.org/7.16.html as Supplementary Content The instruction on recording supplementary content says record the nature of that content In Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12 http://www.loc.gov/catworkshop/RDA%20training%20materials/LC%20RDA%20Traini ng/Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12.doc ' of the LC RDA Training documents, they say: Transcribed Elements vs. Recorded Elements RDA distinguishes between transcribed elements and recorded elements. * For transcribed elements, generally accept the data as found on the resource. * For recorded elements, the found information is often adjusted (for example, the hyphens in an ISBN are omitted). I can't find an explanation of this distinction anywhere in RDA, but it certainly is a helpful distinction and it might be very useful if it was added somewhere (perhaps in the glossary) So, if an instruction says 'Transcribe' you will put down exactly what you find on the source, except for the exceptions provided in a particular instruction; this term is used in most of the instructions in chapters 2-4 for recording the attributes of manifestations and items. But if an instruction says 'Record', you will put down what you find on the source, but not necessarily exactly as you found it. This term is used in all (?) of the instructions in chapters 6-7 for recording the attributes of works and expressions, and certain of the instructions for recording the attributes of manifestations and items (most notably chapter 3) . So, following the instruction at 7.16, we simply 'record' the supplementary content, without the requirement to transcribe any of the data that we include, which means we do not need to use square brackets for anything we enter for this element. As for the things that RDA still considers Notes (under 2.20 http://access.rdatoolkit.org/2.20.html ): 2.20.1.2 says we can take information for notes on manifestation or item from any source, and 2.20.1.3 refers us to 1.10, which does not mention anything about needing square brackets for any data; so it is good thing that the LC-PCC PS for 1.7.1 has the instruction quoted by Bob (although it would be easier to find if it was linked to 1.10) Deborah - - - - - - - - Deborah Fritz TMQ, Inc. mailto:debo...@marcofquality.com debo...@marcofquality.com http://www.marcofquality.com www.marcofquality.com From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 3:25 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes? Sorry, at the risk of sounding obsessive-compulsive, the customary phrase used in most U.S. cataloging is Includes bibliographical references (pages 67-69). not Includes bibliographic references (pages 67-69). as I wrote. Bob Robert L. Maxwell Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian Genre/Form Authorities Librarian 6728 Harold B. Lee Library Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 (801)422-5568 We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to the course which has been heretofore pursued--Eliza R. Snow, 1842. From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 1:05 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes? RDA does not address this, but there is an LC-PCC Policy statement that catalogers may follow if they like and should if they're creating PCC records: LC-PCC PS for 1.7.1 http://access.rdatoolkit.org/document.php?id=rdachp1target=rda1-787#rda1-7 87 http://access.rdatoolkit.org/images/rdalink.png GENERAL GUIDELINES ON TRANSCRIPTION . Punctuation in Notes LC practice/PCC practice: . 3. Square brackets. Do not use square brackets in notes except when they are used in quoted data. EXAMPLE 500 http://desktop.loc.gov/saved/Mabibl_500 ## $aTypes of prayer wheels found in south central Tibet, by Mei Lin: pages 310-375. Not ... pages [310]-[375]. 500 http://desktop.loc.gov/saved/Mabibl_500 ## $a2090245PMA--Page 4 of cover. Not ... -Page [4] of cover
Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?
The English language is really going down hill when record and transcribe can mean different things (to us as catalogers and code writers) and general populace whom we want to use our library do not go around making these *very fine *distinctions. On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Deborah Fritz debo...@marcofquality.comwrote: At the risk of sounding even more obsessive-compulsive than Bob, I offer you this. ** ** Not everything that we thought of as ‘Notes’ under AACR, is a ‘Note’ in RDA. ** ** The example you show, comes under the category of ‘Content’. ** ** Content can either be at the Work level—applying to **every** expression of the work; or at the Expression level—applying to every manifestation of the expression. ** ** Let’s leave aside, for the moment, the question of whether we should be including page numbers for bibliographical references, when those references could be on different pages in different manifestations. ** ** This particular type of content is covered under *7.16http://access.rdatoolkit.org/7.16.html *as Supplementary Content ** ** The instruction on recording supplementary content says “*record* the nature of that content” ** ** In “Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12http://www.loc.gov/catworkshop/RDA%20training%20materials/LC%20RDA%20Training/Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12.doc’ of the LC RDA Training documents, they say: Transcribed Elements vs. Recorded Elements RDA distinguishes between transcribed elements and recorded elements. - For transcribed elements, generally accept the data as found on the resource. - For recorded elements, the found information is often adjusted (for example, the hyphens in an ISBN are omitted). ** ** I can’t find an explanation of this distinction anywhere in RDA, but it certainly is a helpful distinction and it might be very useful if it was added somewhere (perhaps in the glossary) ** ** So, if an instruction says ‘Transcribe’ you will put down exactly what you find on the source, except for the exceptions provided in a particular instruction; this term is used in most of the instructions in chapters 2-4 for recording the attributes of manifestations and items. But if an instruction says ‘Record’, you will put down what you find on the source, but not necessarily exactly as you found it. This term is used in all (?) of the instructions in chapters 6-7 for recording the attributes of works and expressions, and certain of the instructions for recording the attributes of manifestations and items (most notably chapter 3) . ** ** So, following the instruction at 7.16, we simply ‘record’ the supplementary content, without the requirement to transcribe any of the data that we include, which means we do not need to use square brackets for anything we enter for this element. ** ** As for the things that RDA still considers Notes (under 2.20http://access.rdatoolkit.org/2.20.html): 2.20.1.2 says we can take information for notes on manifestation or item from any source, and 2.20.1.3 refers us to 1.10, which does not mention anything about needing square brackets for any data; so it is good thing that the LC-PCC PS for 1.7.1 has the instruction quoted by Bob (although it would be easier to find if it was linked to 1.10) ** ** Deborah ** ** - - - - - - - - Deborah Fritz TMQ, Inc. debo...@marcofquality.com www.marcofquality.com ** ** *From:* Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] *On Behalf Of *Robert Maxwell *Sent:* Friday, December 21, 2012 3:25 PM *To:* RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA *Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes? ** ** Sorry, at the risk of sounding obsessive-compulsive, the customary phrase used in most U.S. cataloging is ** ** Includes bibliographical references (pages 67-69). not Includes bibliographic references (pages 67-69). as I wrote. ** ** Bob ** ** Robert L. Maxwell Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian Genre/Form Authorities Librarian 6728 Harold B. Lee Library Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 (801)422-5568 ** ** We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to the course which has been heretofore pursued--Eliza R. Snow, 1842. ** ** *From:* Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] *On Behalf Of *Robert Maxwell *Sent:* Friday, December 21, 2012 1:05 PM *To:* RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA *Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes? ** ** RDA does not address this, but there is an LC-PCC Policy statement that catalogers may follow if they like
Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?
Thank you Deborah for the extended explanation, particularly regarding the distinction between record and transcribe. I'm still finding it a challenge to find what I'm looking for in the Toolkit. Gene, I kind of agree with what you're saying, but I guess I'd just point out that library users aren't (I hope) expected to be looking at the RDA Toolkit, so the perhaps over-subtle distinction between record and transcribe is just another little bit of specialist vocabulary (jargon, even) that we catalogers will have to get used to, along with the FRBR entities and the rest. --Ben Benjamin Abrahamse Cataloging Coordinator Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems MIT Libraries 617-253-7137 From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Gene Fieg Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 4:00 PM To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes? The English language is really going down hill when record and transcribe can mean different things (to us as catalogers and code writers) and general populace whom we want to use our library do not go around making these very fine distinctions. On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Deborah Fritz debo...@marcofquality.commailto:debo...@marcofquality.com wrote: At the risk of sounding even more obsessive-compulsive than Bob, I offer you this. Not everything that we thought of as 'Notes' under AACR, is a 'Note' in RDA. The example you show, comes under the category of 'Content'. Content can either be at the Work level-applying to *every* expression of the work; or at the Expression level-applying to every manifestation of the expression. Let's leave aside, for the moment, the question of whether we should be including page numbers for bibliographical references, when those references could be on different pages in different manifestations. This particular type of content is covered under 7.16http://access.rdatoolkit.org/7.16.html as Supplementary Content The instruction on recording supplementary content says record the nature of that content In Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12http://www.loc.gov/catworkshop/RDA%20training%20materials/LC%20RDA%20Training/Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12.doc' of the LC RDA Training documents, they say: Transcribed Elements vs. Recorded Elements RDA distinguishes between transcribed elements and recorded elements. * For transcribed elements, generally accept the data as found on the resource. * For recorded elements, the found information is often adjusted (for example, the hyphens in an ISBN are omitted). I can't find an explanation of this distinction anywhere in RDA, but it certainly is a helpful distinction and it might be very useful if it was added somewhere (perhaps in the glossary) So, if an instruction says 'Transcribe' you will put down exactly what you find on the source, except for the exceptions provided in a particular instruction; this term is used in most of the instructions in chapters 2-4 for recording the attributes of manifestations and items. But if an instruction says 'Record', you will put down what you find on the source, but not necessarily exactly as you found it. This term is used in all (?) of the instructions in chapters 6-7 for recording the attributes of works and expressions, and certain of the instructions for recording the attributes of manifestations and items (most notably chapter 3) . So, following the instruction at 7.16, we simply 'record' the supplementary content, without the requirement to transcribe any of the data that we include, which means we do not need to use square brackets for anything we enter for this element. As for the things that RDA still considers Notes (under 2.20http://access.rdatoolkit.org/2.20.html): 2.20.1.2 says we can take information for notes on manifestation or item from any source, and 2.20.1.3 refers us to 1.10, which does not mention anything about needing square brackets for any data; so it is good thing that the LC-PCC PS for 1.7.1 has the instruction quoted by Bob (although it would be easier to find if it was linked to 1.10) Deborah - - - - - - - - Deborah Fritz TMQ, Inc. debo...@marcofquality.commailto:debo...@marcofquality.com www.marcofquality.comhttp://www.marcofquality.com/ From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CAmailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 3:25 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CAmailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes? Sorry, at the risk of sounding obsessive-compulsive, the customary phrase used in most U.S. cataloging is Includes bibliographical references (pages 67-69). not Includes bibliographic references (pages 67-69). as I wrote. Bob Robert L. Maxwell Special Collections
Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?
For a research library the pagination of the bibliography can be very important, as the the graduate student creates a bibliography for his/her thesis. On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Robert Maxwell robert_maxw...@byu.eduwrote: You’re right, Deborah, RDA considers this is an attribute of the expression and so theoretically the page numbers aren’t relevant (a point that seems to have been missed by the author of the example) but as a practical matter people apparently are interested in knowing where the bibliography is in the resource (a manifestation attribute) or at least how extensive the bibliography is (which would probably be an expression attribute). Though actually, a bibliography that the creator includes with a work is part of the work, not any particular expression, right? So perhaps we could say the supplementary content element combines aspects of work and expression *and* manifestation, and we’ll need to resolve this before we can start making discrete ER descriptions. ** ** This isn’t the only place this occurs. Summarization of the content (7.10) is listed as an expression attribute but in my opinion a plot summary is in fact an attribute of the work. But the summarization can also be expression related. The examples under 7.10.1.3 include both: I’d say “Pictures the highlights of the play Julius Caesar …” is work-related, as is “A brief historical account up to the introduction of wave mechanics”, but “Episodes from the novel, read by Ed Begley” is related to a spoken word expression of the work. Same for the example about “Dune”. And so forth. Similarly the contents note, which is well-concealed in Chapter 25 for related works, usually does describe a relationship at the work level, but contents notes can be at the expression level as well (e.g. a contents note listing the French titles in a French translation of an anthology). ** ** Bob ** ** Robert L. Maxwell Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian Genre/Form Authorities Librarian 6728 Harold B. Lee Library Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 (801)422-5568 ** ** We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to the course which has been heretofore pursued--Eliza R. Snow, 1842. ** ** *From:* Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] *On Behalf Of *Deborah Fritz *Sent:* Friday, December 21, 2012 1:53 PM *To:* RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA *Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes? ** ** At the risk of sounding even more obsessive-compulsive than Bob, I offer you this. ** ** Not everything that we thought of as ‘Notes’ under AACR, is a ‘Note’ in RDA. ** ** The example you show, comes under the category of ‘Content’. ** ** Content can either be at the Work level—applying to **every** expression of the work; or at the Expression level—applying to every manifestation of the expression. ** ** Let’s leave aside, for the moment, the question of whether we should be including page numbers for bibliographical references, when those references could be on different pages in different manifestations. ** ** This particular type of content is covered under *7.16http://access.rdatoolkit.org/7.16.html *as Supplementary Content ** ** The instruction on recording supplementary content says “*record* the nature of that content” ** ** In “Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12http://www.loc.gov/catworkshop/RDA%20training%20materials/LC%20RDA%20Training/Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12.doc’ of the LC RDA Training documents, they say: Transcribed Elements vs. Recorded Elements RDA distinguishes between transcribed elements and recorded elements. **· **For transcribed elements, generally accept the data as found on the resource. **· **For recorded elements, the found information is often adjusted (for example, the hyphens in an ISBN are omitted). ** ** I can’t find an explanation of this distinction anywhere in RDA, but it certainly is a helpful distinction and it might be very useful if it was added somewhere (perhaps in the glossary) ** ** So, if an instruction says ‘Transcribe’ you will put down exactly what you find on the source, except for the exceptions provided in a particular instruction; this term is used in most of the instructions in chapters 2-4 for recording the attributes of manifestations and items. ** ** But if an instruction says ‘Record’, you will put down what you find on the source, but not necessarily exactly as you found it. This term is used in all (?) of the instructions in chapters 6-7 for recording the attributes of works and expressions, and certain of the instructions for recording the attributes of manifestations and items (most notably chapter 3
