Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery placement

2022-03-12 Thread Jerry Shafer 
I have systems with the batteries in living spaces, depends more on the
JHA, They are fire rated

On Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 2:43 PM Marco Mangelsdorf  wrote:

> Just out of curiosity, does Blue Planet allow for the placement of their
> Blue Ion battery in residential living spaces?
>
> marco
>
> On Saturday, March 12, 2022, Sindelar Solar 
> wrote:
>
>> I would start by choosing my lithium technology carefully. I have only
>> installed Blue Ion LiFP batteries, and have relied on Blue Planet's
>> assurances that lithium ferrous sulfate technology is non-flammable and
>> thus safe in residential applications.
>> Allan
>>
>> On 3/12/2022 1:11 PM, Dana Orzel wrote:
>>
>>
>> https://www.euronews.com/2022/03/01/massive-cargo-ship-carrying-electric-cars-sinks-in-atlantic-ocean-after-fire
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWq-Mq1Uqpw
>>
>> NTSB video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6eS6JzBn0k
>>
>>
>>
>> Without trying to be a fear monger but definitely concerned as an
>> installer –
>>
>>
>>
>> This ship caught fire carrying both conventional & electric vehicles &
>> Sank
>>
>> On this note and various numerous U-tube videos of lithium car fires,
>> Should we be concerned with installing lithium batteries in homes?
>>
>> What would our liability be in the event of a home fire?
>>
>> Ours or the manufacturer?
>>
>> What would happen to our liability insurance rates if there is a rash of
>> fires?
>>
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts as we all install more lithium batteries in homes?
>>
>>
>>
>> Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Allan Sindelar*
>> al...@sindelarsolar.com
>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
>> *505 780-2738 cell*
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery fires

2022-03-12 Thread Jerry Shafer 
Lithium batteries are not all the same, any battery having cobalt,
magnesium, manganese are some of what will start fires, batteries with
Phosphate does not have the same fire possibilities.

On Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 12:11 PM Dana Orzel  wrote:

>
> https://www.euronews.com/2022/03/01/massive-cargo-ship-carrying-electric-cars-sinks-in-atlantic-ocean-after-fire
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWq-Mq1Uqpw
>
> NTSB video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6eS6JzBn0k
>
>
>
> Without trying to be a fear monger but definitely concerned as an
> installer –
>
>
>
> This ship caught fire carrying both conventional & electric vehicles & Sank
>
> On this note and various numerous U-tube videos of lithium car fires,
> Should we be concerned with installing lithium batteries in homes?
>
> What would our liability be in the event of a home fire?
>
> Ours or the manufacturer?
>
> What would happen to our liability insurance rates if there is a rash of
> fires?
>
>
>
> Any thoughts as we all install more lithium batteries in homes?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.
>
> *C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com
> *
>
> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
>
> NABCEP # 051112-136   www.greatsolarworks.com
>
> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  *
>
> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery fires

2022-03-12 Thread Kienan Maxfield 
Here's my 2¢...

LiFePO4 And NMC are Both technically types of "Lithium-Ion" batteries. Neither 
one has pure lithium, they have ions of lithium. That being said, I agree that 
they shouldn't even really be in the same category. They have some shared 
traits and some different traits.

It is incorrect to say that LiFePO4 (aka LiFe or LFP) is "non-flammable." That 
being said, it is very difficult to start a LiFePO4 on fire, and it doesn't 
give much flame, mostly just a bunch of toxic smoke. Therefore, a LiFePO4 fire 
likely wouldn't spread and start a structure on fire. You can find people on 
youtube who do successfully get it to burn, but it's not easy.

The biggest danger with LiFePO4 is the high current & arc potential. But even 
at that, at the same capacity, the NMC has quite a lot more available amps in 
an arc flash scenario.

I think it's possible to have a very good safety record with NMC (like Tesla 
perhaps), and it's probably one bad brand that'll have a lot of fires that will 
ruin it for everyone else. But NMC will never be as good as LiFePO4. For one 
thing, a fire could start near the NMC battery and catch the battery on fire, 
then the battery fire is the reason that the fire spread to the rest of the 
building... or rather, the battery was the only reason they couldn't extinguish 
the fire. There are lots of videos of people trying to extinguish a fire from 
one of these more unstable chemistries... it rarely goes well.

I don't claim that LiFePO4 is entirely safe, but it shouldn't be in the same 
category as NMC. Not to mention that it has about double the lifespan.

Unfortunately, I doubt that insurance companies will get the difference between 
these two batteries, but I think that should be our big banner... they are not 
the same battery, and if the one fails, the other should not be identified with 
the one.


I don't think that any one brand of LiFePO4 is significantly safer than any 
other because the chemistry itself is so stable, but there are other important 
reasons to choose quality. The biggest is BMS problems. I've had big BMS 
problems, and it makes me pretty picky about which brands I'll choose going 
forward. I have 4 brands that I currently trust... but I don't feel like I need 
to try to laud certain brands or badmouth others... just be sure that you use 
one that you trust.

Thanks,
Kienan


Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Dan 
Fink 
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2022 3:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery fires

Safer LiFePO4 vs. "lithium ion" NMC formulation for ESS is also important to 
carefully explain to customers--especially since the UN 3480/3481 hazmat 
shipping labels and regulations group them both into the same category of 
"Lithium Ion" and that's what stamped and placarded on the box. Ran into this 
with a floatplane transport situation for a remote location. Had to longline 
them under a heli a week later on a separate trip with the other dangerous 
stuff even though they were LiFePO4 and not NMC.

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
danbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342

On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 1:37 PM Sindelar Solar 
mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>> wrote:
I would start by choosing my lithium technology carefully. I have only 
installed Blue Ion LiFP batteries, and have relied on Blue Planet's assurances 
that lithium ferrous sulfate technology is non-flammable and thus safe in 
residential applications.
Allan


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[RE-wrenches] Lithium battery placement

2022-03-12 Thread Marco Mangelsdorf 
Just out of curiosity, does Blue Planet allow for the placement of their
Blue Ion battery in residential living spaces?

marco

On Saturday, March 12, 2022, Sindelar Solar  wrote:

> I would start by choosing my lithium technology carefully. I have only
> installed Blue Ion LiFP batteries, and have relied on Blue Planet's
> assurances that lithium ferrous sulfate technology is non-flammable and
> thus safe in residential applications.
> Allan
>
> On 3/12/2022 1:11 PM, Dana Orzel wrote:
>
> https://www.euronews.com/2022/03/01/massive-cargo-ship-
> carrying-electric-cars-sinks-in-atlantic-ocean-after-fire
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWq-Mq1Uqpw
>
> NTSB video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6eS6JzBn0k
>
>
>
> Without trying to be a fear monger but definitely concerned as an
> installer –
>
>
>
> This ship caught fire carrying both conventional & electric vehicles & Sank
>
> On this note and various numerous U-tube videos of lithium car fires,
> Should we be concerned with installing lithium batteries in homes?
>
> What would our liability be in the event of a home fire?
>
> Ours or the manufacturer?
>
> What would happen to our liability insurance rates if there is a rash of
> fires?
>
>
>
> Any thoughts as we all install more lithium batteries in homes?
>
>
>
> Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.
>
> --
>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> al...@sindelarsolar.com
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> *505 780-2738 cell*
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery fires

2022-03-12 Thread Dan Fink 
Safer LiFePO4 vs. "lithium ion" NMC formulation for ESS is also important
to carefully explain to customers--especially since the UN 3480/3481 hazmat
shipping labels and regulations group them both into the same category of
"Lithium Ion" and that's what stamped and placarded on the box. Ran into
this with a floatplane transport situation for a remote location. Had to
longline them under a heli a week later on a separate trip with the other
dangerous stuff even though they were LiFePO4 and not NMC.

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342

On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 1:37 PM Sindelar Solar 
wrote:

> I would start by choosing my lithium technology carefully. I have only
> installed Blue Ion LiFP batteries, and have relied on Blue Planet's
> assurances that lithium ferrous sulfate technology is non-flammable and
> thus safe in residential applications.
> Allan
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery fires

2022-03-12 Thread Sindelar Solar 
I would start by choosing my lithium technology carefully. I have only 
installed Blue Ion LiFP batteries, and have relied on Blue Planet's 
assurances that lithium ferrous sulfate technology is non-flammable and 
thus safe in residential applications.

Allan

On 3/12/2022 1:11 PM, Dana Orzel wrote:


https://www.euronews.com/2022/03/01/massive-cargo-ship-carrying-electric-cars-sinks-in-atlantic-ocean-after-fire

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWq-Mq1Uqpw

NTSB video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6eS6JzBn0k

Without trying to be a fear monger but definitely concerned as an 
installer –


This ship caught fire carrying both conventional & electric vehicles & 
Sank


On this note and various numerous U-tube videos of lithium car fires, 
Should we be concerned with installing lithium batteries in homes?


What would our liability be in the event of a home fire?

Ours or the manufacturer?

What would happen to our liability insurance rates if there is a rash 
of fires?


Any thoughts as we all install more lithium batteries in homes?

Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.


--

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*
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[RE-wrenches] Lithium battery fires

2022-03-12 Thread Marco Mangelsdorf 
As I far as I know in the grid-tie residential storage market, Tesla
Powerwalls have dominated, especially in the two largest markets of
California and Hawaii. (Full disclosure: I'm a Tesla Certified Installer.)

To my knowledge, I've never seen an example of one torching. In fact,
Tesla, to their credit, let's us know when a PW is not performing to spec
and then actively pursues the RMA.

marco

On Saturday, March 12, 2022, Dana Orzel  wrote:

> https://www.euronews.com/2022/03/01/massive-cargo-ship-
> carrying-electric-cars-sinks-in-atlantic-ocean-after-fire
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWq-Mq1Uqpw
>
> NTSB video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6eS6JzBn0k
>
>
>
> Without trying to be a fear monger but definitely concerned as an
> installer –
>
>
>
> This ship caught fire carrying both conventional & electric vehicles & Sank
>
> On this note and various numerous U-tube videos of lithium car fires,
> Should we be concerned with installing lithium batteries in homes?
>
> What would our liability be in the event of a home fire?
>
> Ours or the manufacturer?
>
> What would happen to our liability insurance rates if there is a rash of
> fires?
>
>
>
> Any thoughts as we all install more lithium batteries in homes?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.
>
> *C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com
> *
>
> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
>
> NABCEP # 051112-136   www.greatsolarworks.com
>
> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  *
>
> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
>
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] Lithium battery fires

2022-03-12 Thread Dana Orzel 
https://www.euronews.com/2022/03/01/massive-cargo-ship-carrying-electric-car
s-sinks-in-atlantic-ocean-after-fire

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWq-Mq1Uqpw

NTSB video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6eS6JzBn0k

 

Without trying to be a fear monger but definitely concerned as an installer
- 

 

This ship caught fire carrying both conventional & electric vehicles & Sank

On this note and various numerous U-tube videos of lithium car fires, Should
we be concerned with installing lithium batteries in homes?

What would our liability be in the event of a home fire? 

Ours or the manufacturer?

What would happen to our liability insurance rates if there is a rash of
fires?

 

Any thoughts as we all install more lithium batteries in homes?

 

 

 

 

Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc. 

C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com

Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374

NABCEP # 051112-136   www.greatsolarworks.com
 

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  

P Please consider the environment before printing this email.

 

 

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