Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
Dan We have done two so far and they seem to be good Input needs to be over 200vdc. They are available and we have them in our warehouse. Contact me off list for particulars. Tom Duffy Systems Design Engineer t...@thesolar.biz 575-539-2111 X 301 Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 11:37 AM To: penobscotso...@midmaine.com Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first? Brand new, and it is shipping now. XW-MPPT80-600. It certainly raised my eyebrows. But it's so new that i don't know of anyone who has installed one yet. Dan Fink Executive Director; Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers http://www.buckville.com/ i...@buckville.com 970.672.4342 (voicemail) 970.373.1311 (fax) penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote: Dan, Is the Xantrex controller available/released yet? I've used the Classic 250 and the Apollo HV but have yet to see/use a Xantrex 600 Voc controller.will anyone who has used one chime in and share their experience ? Hi Eric; I'll be very interested to hear what others on this list who have far more experience than me in large systems have to say about this. But my first thought is, go DC. The new Xantrex XW high voltage MPPT charge controller will take up to 600 Voc from PV and put it into a standard battery bank, that roughly puts you realistically at just 30 amps in your DC lines. How were you planning to invert to AC at the PV array? Enphase etc? How do you do battery backup with an Enphase system (I have no idea, but am eager to learn from others here)? Any standard islanding grid-tie inverter will need to be right next to the battery bank. Dan Fink Executive Director; Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers http://www.buckville.com/ i...@buckville.com 970.672.4342 (voicemail) 970.373.1311 (fax) Eric Thomas wrote: Wrenches, We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not. Thanks for the insight. Eric Thomas Founder Solar Epiphany LLC NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
At 03:09 PM 10/2/2011, you wrote: Sounds like a good situation for a sunny island system. I second that option. Run high voltage strings (say 13- 30 volt module strings) to the Sunny Boys, and AC couple to the Sunny Islands. I'm running 440 feet to a Sunny Boy, and wire size will not be a problem. You will likely need 4 of the Sunny Islands if you want to be able to use the entire 15kW array for backup. It is an expensive option, but if it is a super high end job, then this would be the way to go. Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 2, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Eric Thomas mailto:solarepiph...@gmail.comsolarepiph...@gmail.com wrote: Wrenches, We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not. Thanks for the insight. Eric Thomas Founder Solar Epiphany LLC NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgRE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orghttp://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orghttp://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmwww.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.orgwww.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Drake Chamberlin ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC OH License 44810 CO license 3773 NABCEP Certified PV ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
We have designed and installed many systems like this and do not like running high voltage DC long distances. We invert at the array and run 240 VAC to the house. This means the array dis-connects match all the other AC dis-connects and safety switches on the home's exteror that the utilities and fire department are familiar with using when they need to dis-connect, and AC dis-connects are less costly than the same size rated DC dis-conencts you will need if you keep everything DC from the array. As mentioned in other replys, you will land this 240VAC output at the critical loads panel downstream from a battery based inverter. I think you will find that most grid-tie inverters will provide better performance in selling back to grid. Have a battery-based inverter just hang aroud on standby waiting for a power outage and keeping the batteries topped off. Make sure your battery based inverter has way to prevent over-charging batteries during a power outage when using the back feed solar power. Some inverters do this by shifting the frequency to force the battery inverter to drop off line while others have this as a program feature. Jeffrey Yago, pres. DTI Solar Inc. (p) 804-457-9566 (f) 815 846-0677 email - jry...@dtisolar.com on the web - www.pvforyou.com _ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
Hi Jeff, Can you please explain why you don't like running high voltage DC long distances? thanks, jay peltz power On Oct 3, 2011, at 1:58 PM, Jeff Yago wrote: We have designed and installed many systems like this and do not like running high voltage DC long distances. We invert at the array and run 240 VAC to the house. This means the array dis-connects match all the other AC dis-connects and safety switches on the home's exteror that the utilities and fire department are familiar with using when they need to dis-connect, and AC dis-connects are less costly than the same size rated DC dis-conencts you will need if you keep everything DC from the array. As mentioned in other replys, you will land this 240VAC output at the critical loads panel downstream from a battery based inverter. I think you will find that most grid-tie inverters will provide better performance in selling back to grid. Have a battery-based inverter just hang aroud on standby waiting for a power outage and keeping the batteries topped off. Make sure your battery based inverter has way to prevent over-charging batteries during a power outage when using the back feed solar power. Some inverters do this by shifting the frequency to force the battery inverter to drop off line while others have this as a program feature. Jeffrey Yago, pres. DTI Solar Inc. (p) 804-457-9566 (f) 815 846-0677 email - jry...@dtisolar.com on the web - www.pvforyou.com ___ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
What would everyone do if all the conditions were the same except the winter temps could reach -60 F? There is not an inverter out there that can come close to handling these extreme temps. Jesse Sent from my iPhone On Oct 3, 2011, at 3:58 PM, Jeff Yago jry...@netscape.com wrote: We have designed and installed many systems like this and do not like running high voltage DC long distances. We invert at the array and run 240 VAC to the house. This means the array dis-connects match all the other AC dis-connects and safety switches on the home's exteror that the utilities and fire department are familiar with using when they need to dis-connect, and AC dis-connects are less costly than the same size rated DC dis-conencts you will need if you keep everything DC from the array. As mentioned in other replys, you will land this 240VAC output at the critical loads panel downstream from a battery based inverter. I think you will find that most grid-tie inverters will provide better performance in selling back to grid. Have a battery-based inverter just hang aroud on standby waiting for a power outage and keeping the batteries topped off. Make sure your battery based inverter has way to prevent over-charging batteries during a power outage when using the back feed solar power. Some inverters do this by shifting the frequency to force the battery inverter to drop off line while others have this as a program feature. Jeffrey Yago, pres. DTI Solar Inc. (p) 804-457-9566 (f) 815 846-0677 email - jry...@dtisolar.com on the web - www.pvforyou.com _ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Invert first?
Wrenches, We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not. Thanks for the insight. Eric Thomas Founder Solar Epiphany LLC NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
Hi Eric; I'll be very interested to hear what others on this list who have far more experience than me in large systems have to say about this. But my first thought is, go DC. The new Xantrex XW high voltage MPPT charge controller will take up to 600 Voc from PV and put it into a standard battery bank, that roughly puts you realistically at just 30 amps in your DC lines. How were you planning to invert to AC at the PV array? Enphase etc? How do you do battery backup with an Enphase system (I have no idea, but am eager to learn from others here)? Any standard islanding grid-tie inverter will need to be right next to the battery bank. Dan Fink Executive Director; Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers http://www.buckville.com/ i...@buckville.com 970.672.4342 (voicemail) 970.373.1311 (fax) Eric Thomas wrote: Wrenches, We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not. Thanks for the insight. Eric Thomas Founder Solar Epiphany LLC NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
Brand new, and it is shipping now. XW-MPPT80-600. It certainly raised my eyebrows. But it's so new that i don't know of anyone who has installed one yet. Dan Fink Executive Director; Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers http://www.buckville.com/ i...@buckville.com 970.672.4342 (voicemail) 970.373.1311 (fax) penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote: Dan, Is the Xantrex controller available/released yet? I've used the Classic 250 and the Apollo HV but have yet to see/use a Xantrex 600 Voc controller.will anyone who has used one chime in and share their experience ? Hi Eric; I'll be very interested to hear what others on this list who have far more experience than me in large systems have to say about this. But my first thought is, go DC. The new Xantrex XW high voltage MPPT charge controller will take up to 600 Voc from PV and put it into a standard battery bank, that roughly puts you realistically at just 30 amps in your DC lines. How were you planning to invert to AC at the PV array? Enphase etc? How do you do battery backup with an Enphase system (I have no idea, but am eager to learn from others here)? Any standard islanding grid-tie inverter will need to be right next to the battery bank. Dan Fink Executive Director; Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers http://www.buckville.com/ i...@buckville.com 970.672.4342 (voicemail) 970.373.1311 (fax) Eric Thomas wrote: Wrenches, We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not. Thanks for the insight. Eric Thomas Founder Solar Epiphany LLC NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
I was just running some preliminary wire sizing for an array about 200 ft away, and DC is just not the problem it used to be. Using the Midnite Classic at higher array voltages does wonders for reducing wire size. I have not looked at the XW yet. AC can't go over 240 v in this situation, so both the Classic and apparently the XW can do better than that. Adding losses for converting DC to AC to DC again, and I can't see any compelling reason to go AC at the array. Ray Walters On 10/2/2011 10:50 AM, Dan Fink wrote: Hi Eric; I'll be very interested to hear what others on this list who have far more experience than me in large systems have to say about this. But my first thought is, go DC. The new Xantrex XW high voltage MPPT charge controller will take up to 600 Voc from PV and put it into a standard battery bank, that roughly puts you realistically at just 30 amps in your DC lines. How were you planning to invert to AC at the PV array? Enphase etc? How do you do battery backup with an Enphase system (I have no idea, but am eager to learn from others here)? Any standard islanding grid-tie inverter will need to be right next to the battery bank. Dan Fink Executive Director; Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers http://www.buckville.com/ i...@buckville.com 970.672.4342 (voicemail) 970.373.1311 (fax) Eric Thomas wrote: Wrenches, We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not. Thanks for the insight. Eric Thomas Founder Solar Epiphany LLC NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
Might it make more sense to put all the power gear at the panels and run ac interconnecting wire to the grid tie point and the loads? That way you are only running the ac wires all the way. It will involve a walk to check the system, but might be cheaper in the long run. Otherwise, what are you using for inverters? Will they charge the batteries from a higher voltage input? 450 volts or so DC off the panels would not be too bad. I expect that a standalone battery charger would be way inefficient and the losses would be high. Most of the stand alone chargers are pretty bad, efficiency wise. Using inverter power to feed an inverter to charge the batteries sounds kinda clunky in the process also, but I think it has been done. Would the receiving inverter accept the power? Hard to say, wouldn't want to buy a bunch and find out otherwise. How about using the Midnite classics in the higher voltage range, and converting it to battery voltage as usual? It might (will) take several but all the other options (controller wise) would probably take as many or more. Some of the Classics will take up to a 250 volt input, that would help to cut down on the copper Just a quick thought stream, Bob Ellison From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Eric Thomas Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 12:15 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Invert first? Wrenches, We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not. Thanks for the insight. Eric Thomas Founder Solar Epiphany LLC NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
I heard there were come kinks in the new XW getting them to play well together. I understand it's 2 units in a single case and there are some problems with the idea. Can't remember think it was at the fair in PA. that someone mentioned it but it could have been elsewhere. I have learned to hate the bleeding edge! Bob Ellison -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 1:37 PM To: penobscotso...@midmaine.com Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first? Brand new, and it is shipping now. XW-MPPT80-600. It certainly raised my eyebrows. But it's so new that I don't know of anyone who has installed one yet. Dan Fink Executive Director; Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers http://www.buckville.com/ i...@buckville.com 970.672.4342 (voicemail) 970.373.1311 (fax) penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote: Dan, Is the Xantrex controller available/released yet? I've used the Classic 250 and the Apollo HV but have yet to see/use a Xantrex 600 Voc controller.will anyone who has used one chime in and share their experience ? Hi Eric; I'll be very interested to hear what others on this list who have far more experience than me in large systems have to say about this. But my first thought is, go DC. The new Xantrex XW high voltage MPPT charge controller will take up to 600 Voc from PV and put it into a standard battery bank, that roughly puts you realistically at just 30 amps in your DC lines. How were you planning to invert to AC at the PV array? Enphase etc? How do you do battery backup with an Enphase system (I have no idea, but am eager to learn from others here)? Any standard islanding grid-tie inverter will need to be right next to the battery bank. Dan Fink Executive Director; Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers http://www.buckville.com/ i...@buckville.com 970.672.4342 (voicemail) 970.373.1311 (fax) Eric Thomas wrote: Wrenches, We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not. Thanks for the insight. Eric Thomas Founder Solar Epiphany LLC NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
If it were me (Depending on how big the back up loads are), I'd make the array direct grid tie, and then set up a smaller stand alone system (At the house) for critical loadsback up.. more like a big UPS.. (no DC in)dbDan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44 Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first? From: Dan Fink buckvi...@hughes.net Date: Sun, October 02, 2011 12:50 pm To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Eric; I'll be very interested to hear what others on this list who have far more experience than me in large systems have to say about this. But my first thought is, go DC. The new Xantrex XW high voltage MPPT charge controller will take up to 600 Voc from PV and put it into a standard battery bank, that roughly puts you realistically at just 30 amps in your DC lines. How were you planning to invert to AC at the PV array? Enphase etc? How do you do battery backup with an Enphase system (I have no idea, but am eager to learn from others here)? Any standard islanding grid-tie inverter will need to be right next to the battery bank. Dan Fink Executive Director; Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers http://www.buckville.com/ i...@buckville.com 970.672.4342 (voicemail) 970.373.1311 (fax) Eric Thomas wrote: Wrenches, We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not. Thanks for the insight. Eric Thomas Founder Solar Epiphany LLC NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
And, of course, made in China. Given other good choices, that loses me right there. On Oct 2, 2011, at 10:36 AM, Dan Fink wrote: Brand new, and it is shipping now. XW-MPPT80-600. It certainly raised my eyebrows. But it's so new that i don't know of anyone who has installed one yet. Dan Fink Executive Director; Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers http://www.buckville.com/ i...@buckville.com 970.672.4342 (voicemail) 970.373.1311 (fax) penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote: Dan, Is the Xantrex controller available/released yet? I've used the Classic 250 and the Apollo HV but have yet to see/use a Xantrex 600 Voc controller.will anyone who has used one chime in and share their experience ? Hi Eric; I'll be very interested to hear what others on this list who have far more experience than me in large systems have to say about this. But my first thought is, go DC. The new Xantrex XW high voltage MPPT charge controller will take up to 600 Voc from PV and put it into a standard battery bank, that roughly puts you realistically at just 30 amps in your DC lines. How were you planning to invert to AC at the PV array? Enphase etc? How do you do battery backup with an Enphase system (I have no idea, but am eager to learn from others here)? Any standard islanding grid-tie inverter will need to be right next to the battery bank. Dan Fink Executive Director; Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers http://www.buckville.com/ i...@buckville.com 970.672.4342 (voicemail) 970.373.1311 (fax) Eric Thomas wrote: Wrenches, We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not. Thanks for the insight. Eric Thomas Founder Solar Epiphany LLC NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
On 10/2/2011 11:53 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote: If it were me (Depending on how big the back up loads are), I'd make the array direct grid tie, and then set up a smaller stand alone system (At the house) for critical loadsback up.. more like a big UPS.. (no DC in) db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 You could also think about using 2 transformers, one on each end, to boost the AC to a few thousand volts to cut losses. But transformers have losses too. Might be able to use some type of AC coupling as well for the backup part ?? boB Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first? From: Dan Fink buckvi...@hughes.net mailto:buckvi...@hughes.net Date: Sun, October 02, 2011 12:50 pm To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Eric; I'll be very interested to hear what others on this list who have far more experience than me in large systems have to say about this. But my first thought is, go DC. The new Xantrex XW high voltage MPPT charge controller will take up to 600 Voc from PV and put it into a standard battery bank, that roughly puts you realistically at just 30 amps in your DC lines. How were you planning to invert to AC at the PV array? Enphase etc? How do you do battery backup with an Enphase system (I have no idea, but am eager to learn from others here)? Any standard islanding grid-tie inverter will need to be right next to the battery bank. Dan Fink Executive Director; Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers http://www.buckville.com/ i...@buckville.com mailto:i...@buckville.com 970.672.4342 (voicemail) 970.373.1311 (fax) Eric Thomas wrote: Wrenches, We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not. Thanks for the insight. Eric Thomas Founder Solar Epiphany LLC NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
Sounds like a good situation for a sunny island system. Sent from my iPhone. On Oct 2, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Eric Thomas solarepiph...@gmail.com wrote: Wrenches, We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not. Thanks for the insight. Eric Thomas Founder Solar Epiphany LLC NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
Dan, Is the Xantrex controller available/released yet? I've used the Classic 250 and the Apollo HV but have yet to see/use a Xantrex 600 Voc controller.will anyone who has used one chime in and share their experience ? Hi Eric; I'll be very interested to hear what others on this list who have far more experience than me in large systems have to say about this. But my first thought is, go DC. The new Xantrex XW high voltage MPPT charge controller will take up to 600 Voc from PV and put it into a standard battery bank, that roughly puts you realistically at just 30 amps in your DC lines. How were you planning to invert to AC at the PV array? Enphase etc? How do you do battery backup with an Enphase system (I have no idea, but am eager to learn from others here)? Any standard islanding grid-tie inverter will need to be right next to the battery bank. Dan Fink Executive Director; Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers http://www.buckville.com/ i...@buckville.com 970.672.4342 (voicemail) 970.373.1311 (fax) Eric Thomas wrote: Wrenches, We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not. Thanks for the insight. Eric Thomas Founder Solar Epiphany LLC NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
Hi Eric, Look at your design parameters. There is no reason you can't run DC 250'. You are better with some small amount of DC loss than with AC loss, particularly if you intend to sell back to the utility. Use a Classic 250 or 200 or Apollo Solar's T80HV. You can configure your panel series string voltage high enough to sustain minimal voltage loss without particularly large wire sizing. Remember to compensate for cold temps in your Voc. This is just one man's suggestion. I am sure others might do it differently Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PV installer Penobscot Solar Design Wrenches, We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not. Thanks for the insight. Eric Thomas Founder Solar Epiphany LLC NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
Eric, We have had excellent results doing these with Sunny Boys and Sunny Islands. It is more pricey but if you have a high end customer and want a a reliable, trouble free (?) system, we have had no wrinkles or call backs with this approach. We have inverted at the array in the past and sent AC to the critical loads sub panel at the house and from there to the Sunny Islands and then either the main service panel or done a tap between the main service panel and the utility meter. If you do a tap then you need an AC fused disconnect before the tap. But you could also run DC from the array to the house, if it is a new system, and then invert to AC. This is also a good approach if a customer wants to add battery back up to an existing grid tie system. There is some rewiring but it is not at the array. The output of the grid tie inverter in an AC coupled system needs to land in the critical loads sub panel rather than the main service panel where it probably now lands. Magnum has a good schematic on their website showing how this is done using a MS-PAE battery based inverter and a grid tie inverter Larry Brown Sun Mountain Nabcep Certified PV Installer On Oct 2, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Eric Thomas wrote: Wrenches, We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not. Thanks for the insight. Eric Thomas Founder Solar Epiphany LLC NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Invert first?
I have done this with great success also using the Magnum and a Grid Tie wind turbine in place of the solar. once battery bank is full the AE would cause the turbines GT inverter to shutdown because of a UL 1741 setting. Of course a better solution would be to use a dump load. -- Pine Ridge Products LLC 1646 East Highwood Rd Belt, MT 59412 www.pineridgeproducts.com www.chinookturbines.com On Sunday, October 2, 2011 at 2:03 -Oct 2, Larry Brown wrote: Eric, We have had excellent results doing these with Sunny Boys and Sunny Islands. It is more pricey but if you have a high end customer and want a a reliable, trouble free (?) system, we have had no wrinkles or call backs with this approach. We have inverted at the array in the past and sent AC to the critical loads sub panel at the house and from there to the Sunny Islands and then either the main service panel or done a tap between the main service panel and the utility meter. If you do a tap then you need an AC fused disconnect before the tap. But you could also run DC from the array to the house, if it is a new system, and then invert to AC. This is also a good approach if a customer wants to add battery back up to an existing grid tie system. There is some rewiring but it is not at the array. The output of the grid tie inverter in an AC coupled system needs to land in the critical loads sub panel rather than the main service panel where it probably now lands. Magnum has a good schematic on their website showing how this is done using a MS-PAE battery based inverter and a grid tie inverter Larry Brown Sun Mountain Nabcep Certified PV Installer On Oct 2, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Eric Thomas wrote: Wrenches, We are designing a super high end grid-tied w/ battery backup system for a customer. Array will be ~15kW; pole or stand alone structure mounted; 250' from home/batteries. My question is: does it make any sense to invert the power at the array and use this ac to make the long run to the batteries THEN connect to a typical battery charger rather than a dc charge controller? Im mostly concerned with huge dc conductors making this run across the property. Havent delved into the specific design enough to size said conductors yet, or specify any equipment, but wanted to know if im barking up the wrong tree ir not. Thanks for the insight. Eric Thomas Founder Solar Epiphany LLC NABCEP Certified PV Installer WA Electrical Contractor # SOLAREL911NR ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org (mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org) Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm (http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm) Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org (http://www.members.re-wrenches.org) ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org (mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org) Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm (http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm) Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org (http://www.members.re-wrenches.org) ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
