Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
Ray, Are these the base model Trojan L-16's or the L-16RE's? David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 12:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Yes, it seems to be random. The idea that the failures are caused by the wiring or maintenance or anything on the user/ installer side is ludicris. I will also second William's comments that Trojan has been less than helpful, and if you're one month past the 2 year warranty: forget about it. This is truely a shame, since we all consider Trojan to be one of the top battery manufacturers. In the past Trojan was known for outlasting competing brands by many years. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/12/2015 8:26 PM, Jay wrote: Hi Ray Would that be random dead cells? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Aug 12, 2015, at 6:44 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a couple of years just as you reported. We use the T105 RE and have not had problems, but stay away from their L16 line. I otherwise do not know or understand the causes behind these failures, but I think this list proves to be at its most valuable when we can save each other and our customers needless suffering. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist .html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
Drake et al I only design with series strings (no parallel) I use a fairly high bulk and absorb setting and I always calculate the absorb time. Further I don't pretend there is enough solar if there's not. I design for a full charge daily for 8 months a year from solar alone, thus insuring fully charged batteries at a minimum of every 10 days. I have been selling Trojan for years and with the new RE line we have never seen a failure that wasn't caused by abuse, either a poor bank design or bad or no charge settings or failure to maintain properly (this includes judicious equalization). Failing batteries after two years always indicates improper charging and probably too many parallel strings that are not being dealt with the way parallel strings require. I have been selling batteries for 47 years now and in that time I have only seen 5 honest to goodness (Manufacturing defect) batteries. Everything else was abuse. Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [Real-logo-X-195] E-Mail: t...@thesolar.biz Panama Office: 507-6126-1253 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economythe light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off... It should have been solar. Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 9:23 PM To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries It does not bode well that Trojan is currently back ordered on at least some AGM batteries until October in order for them to address issues on their manufacturing line. On 8/12/2015 6:44 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a couple of years just as you reported. We use the T105 RE and have not had problems, but stay away from their L16 line. I otherwise do not know or understand the causes behind these failures, but I think this list proves to be at its most valuable when we can save each other and our customers needless suffering. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/12/2015 4:03 PM, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmhttp://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.orghttp://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmhttp://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.orghttp://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
Most failures have been in one string of 4 or 8 batteries. One failure was in two strings of 4. At 10:26 PM 8/12/2015, you wrote: What size are the banks are are they series/paralleled across the terminals? That can cause one or more cells to fail, generally starting on the negative terminal. The set that failed on me was series/parallel across the terminals, old school, and the cell closest to the main negative overheated and shorted out, killing that string. Itâs why I went to buss bars. Tom From: mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.orgDrake Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:03 PM To: mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgre-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/http://athens-electric.com/ -- ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
Wrenches This may should a little like a old wives tail but I used to see the same cell and or artery failure over the years. Its all about resistance so I started rotating the batteries, this improved acid levels, life span and capacity. Just try it out before you laugh it off. One thought is the moving around is the key. Jerry Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an ATT 4G LTE smartphone div Original message /divdivFrom: Tom at wagonmaker t...@wagonmaker.com /divdivDate:08/12/2015 4:26 PM (GMT-10:00) /divdivTo: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org /divdivSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries /divdiv /divWhat size are the banks are are they series/paralleled across the terminals? That can cause one or more cells to fail, generally starting on the negative terminal. The set that failed on me was series/parallel across the terminals, old school, and the cell closest to the main negative overheated and shorted out, killing that string. It’s why I went to buss bars. Tom From: Drake Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:03 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
Hi: It occurred to me that with all the experience on the Wrenches community, we have a unique opportunity to get perspective on one aspect of battery bank natural aging and failure. Which cells typically fail first, A. The cells on the end of the strings B. The cells in the middle of the strings C. Random cells in any position. If there is a pattern to failures among a large group of systems, then that will support cell rotation. If not, then not. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 08/13/2015 07:03 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Most failures have been in one string of 4 or 8 batteries. One failure was in two strings of 4. At 10:26 PM 8/12/2015, you wrote: What size are the banks are are they series/paralleled across the terminals? That can cause one or more cells to fail, generally starting on the negative terminal. The set that failed on me was series/parallel across the terminals, old school, and the cell closest to the main negative overheated and shorted out, killing that string. It’s why I went to buss bars. Tom From: Drake Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:03 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
Jarmo, the accumulated experience of a big group of professionals is one of the great functions of this list. This discussion is yet another of a recurring thread that documents the fuzziness of current and past battery technology and management. There are a huge number of variables, but your suggestion of documenting the position of bad cells is a good start. Hopefully the new series of smart batteries will offer better management. Thanks to all. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 9:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hi: It occurred to me that with all the experience on the Wrenches community, we have a unique opportunity to get perspective on one aspect of battery bank natural aging and failure. Which cells typically fail first, A. The cells on the end of the strings B. The cells in the middle of the strings C. Random cells in any position. If there is a pattern to failures among a large group of systems, then that will support cell rotation. If not, then not. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: http://www.xantrex.com/ www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 http://www.xantrexrebate.com/ http://www.xantrex.com/ https://www.facebook.com/Xantrex https://twitter.com/Xantrex https://twitter.com/Xantrex *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 08/13/2015 07:03 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org _ Most failures have been in one string of 4 or 8 batteries. One failure was in two strings of 4. At 10:26 PM 8/12/2015, you wrote: What size are the banks are are they series/paralleled across the terminals? That can cause one or more cells to fail, generally starting on the negative terminal. The set that failed on me was series/parallel across the terminals, old school, and the cell closest to the main negative overheated and shorted out, killing that string. It’s why I went to buss bars. Tom From: Drake mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:03 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. _ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
Michael, does HP or SolarPro have a format for compiling the type of data that Jarmo is asking? …a Doodles.com survey type of form that could be accessed through the wrenches archives or similar? I’ve thought for a long time that different comparisons over time for: i.e. customer service, module or inverter failure rates or changes in tech support would be helpful to the whole renewable energy community. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 9:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hi: It occurred to me that with all the experience on the Wrenches community, we have a unique opportunity to get perspective on one aspect of battery bank natural aging and failure. Which cells typically fail first, A. The cells on the end of the strings B. The cells in the middle of the strings C. Random cells in any position. If there is a pattern to failures among a large group of systems, then that will support cell rotation. If not, then not. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: http://www.xantrex.com/ www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 http://www.xantrexrebate.com/ http://www.xantrex.com/ https://www.facebook.com/Xantrex https://twitter.com/Xantrex https://twitter.com/Xantrex *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 08/13/2015 07:03 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org _ Most failures have been in one string of 4 or 8 batteries. One failure was in two strings of 4. At 10:26 PM 8/12/2015, you wrote: What size are the banks are are they series/paralleled across the terminals? That can cause one or more cells to fail, generally starting on the negative terminal. The set that failed on me was series/parallel across the terminals, old school, and the cell closest to the main negative overheated and shorted out, killing that string. It’s why I went to buss bars. Tom From: Drake mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:03 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. _ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
These were the REs R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/13/2015 5:32 AM, Dave wrote: Ray, Are these the base model Trojan L-16's or the L-16RE's? David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 802-371-8678 cell 802-888-4917 home -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 12:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Yes, it seems to be random. The idea that the failures are caused by the wiring or maintenance or anything on the user/ installer side is ludicris. I will also second William's comments that Trojan has been less than helpful, and if you're one month past the 2 year warranty: forget about it. This is truely a shame, since we all consider Trojan to be one of the top battery manufacturers. In the past Trojan was known for outlasting competing brands by many years. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/12/2015 8:26 PM, Jay wrote: Hi Ray Would that be random dead cells? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Aug 12, 2015, at 6:44 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a couple of years just as you reported. We use the T105 RE and have not had problems, but stay away from their L16 line. I otherwise do not know or understand the causes behind these failures, but I think this list proves to be at its most valuable when we can save each other and our customers needless suffering. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist .html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/http://athens-electric.com/ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
It does not bode well that Trojan is currently back ordered on at least some AGM batteries until October in order for them to address issues on their manufacturing line. On 8/12/2015 6:44 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a couple of years just as you reported. We use the T105 RE and have not had problems, but stay away from their L16 line. I otherwise do not know or understand the causes behind these failures, but I think this list proves to be at its most valuable when we can save each other and our customers needless suffering. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/12/2015 4:03 PM, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake /Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 /http://athens-electric.com/ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
What size are the banks are are they series/paralleled across the terminals? That can cause one or more cells to fail, generally starting on the negative terminal. The set that failed on me was series/parallel across the terminals, old school, and the cell closest to the main negative overheated and shorted out, killing that string. It’s why I went to buss bars. Tom From: Drake Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:03 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
Yes, it seems to be random. The idea that the failures are caused by the wiring or maintenance or anything on the user/ installer side is ludicris. I will also second William's comments that Trojan has been less than helpful, and if you're one month past the 2 year warranty: forget about it. This is truely a shame, since we all consider Trojan to be one of the top battery manufacturers. In the past Trojan was known for outlasting competing brands by many years. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/12/2015 8:26 PM, Jay wrote: Hi Ray Would that be random dead cells? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Aug 12, 2015, at 6:44 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a couple of years just as you reported. We use the T105 RE and have not had problems, but stay away from their L16 line. I otherwise do not know or understand the causes behind these failures, but I think this list proves to be at its most valuable when we can save each other and our customers needless suffering. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a couple of years just as you reported. We use the T105 RE and have not had problems, but stay away from their L16 line. I otherwise do not know or understand the causes behind these failures, but I think this list proves to be at its most valuable when we can save each other and our customers needless suffering. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/12/2015 4:03 PM, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake /Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 /http://athens-electric.com/ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
Drake: Yep, big time problems here. I installed a group of 8 L-16s for a little old lady and her partner and I had multiple failures. I replaced two and then all 8. The new ones have been in two days and are supposedly working better. Trojan denied any compensation for the three trips at 4 hours round trip each to trouble shoot and replace. I will never use Trojan batteries again. William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters *Sent:* Wednesday, August 12, 2015 6:45 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a couple of years just as you reported. We use the T105 RE and have not had problems, but stay away from their L16 line. I otherwise do not know or understand the causes behind these failures, but I think this list proves to be at its most valuable when we can save each other and our customers needless suffering. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 8/12/2015 4:03 PM, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
Hi Ray Would that be random dead cells? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Aug 12, 2015, at 6:44 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Oh I'm going to risk the wrath of Trojan and others, but I can confirm issues with the Trojan L16 having premature cell failures within a couple of years just as you reported. We use the T105 RE and have not had problems, but stay away from their L16 line. I otherwise do not know or understand the causes behind these failures, but I think this list proves to be at its most valuable when we can save each other and our customers needless suffering. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
Tom: The system I am complaining about was eight L-16s in series. This should have been the best case scenario. William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Tom at wagonmaker *Sent:* Wednesday, August 12, 2015 7:27 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries What size are the banks are are they series/paralleled across the terminals? That can cause one or more cells to fail, generally starting on the negative terminal. The set that failed on me was series/parallel across the terminals, old school, and the cell closest to the main negative overheated and shorted out, killing that string. It’s why I went to buss bars. Tom *From:* Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org *Sent:* Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:03 PM *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ -- ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
