Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances

2019-09-17 Thread Chris Schaefer
Hey Dave,

Sorry for the delay to your question on the ASCO. Yes the 185 is the one I
use either with a service entrance rated CB or without. You can adjust time
so in a power outage the transfer is less than 2 seconds. Have had zero
issues since switching to them over 10 years ago.

Christopher

On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:17 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> I'll let you all know once we sort this out.
>
> A series of blade type disconnects could work. I'm not doing the AC
> distribution past the inverters, but I need to consult with the electrical
> contractor so I'm driving the bus at this point. Some combination of manual
> and automated controls should work.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 10:10 PM Jay  wrote:
>
>> We don’t know how you have the AC distribution set up.
>>
>> If you have a main that then distributes to sub panels, how about relays
>> on delay timers that go to each sub. 3-5 seconds would be more than enough.
>>
>> Or mechanical discos with simple instructions of delay between each.
>> But yea people have to read and comprehend and it’s probably dark so
>> maybe the delay timers.
>>
>> Let us know what you end up using
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 12, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
>> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>>
>> Jason, any chance of one of the "help" being made knowledgeable to manage
>> this? In a way this is what I do for my offgrid clients. If they won't, I
>> walk away because it is just to complicated at this stage in RE. Hoping it
>> will change!
>>
>> I get them up to speed on managing loads and understanding what is going
>> on with the power. This saves me from the headache. Explain that it can
>> save them quite a bit of money also.  I do not envy you and income is
>> important.  Good Luck!
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>> text 209 813 0060*
>>
>> On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:39:13 -0400, Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>> I definitely understand that I can't prevent it 100%, but I can surely
>> mitigate the likelihood. It's highly unlikely that all 10 refrigerators
>> will all start simultaneously based on temperature with the well pump and
>> two air conditioners except when power is first applied. Moreso than the
>> ATS changeover, I'm concerned about scenarios where everything is
>> completely off at the property and the inverter breakers are flipped on.
>> Then I'm essentially guaranteed I'll have 15 motors all trying to start at
>> the same time. I'm planning 27-32kW of capacity, which may well be enough
>> depending on how gentle the HVAC units start, but I want to have a strategy
>> in case things don't go as planned.
>>
>> I was thinking that the ATS would be a good strategy to trigger time
>> delays because it would be implemented whether it was a startup from no
>> power source or during power source transfer.
>>
>> The challenge here is that more than half of these loads will be used
>> maybe a few weeks a year. I'm tasked with designing a system that will
>> operate efficiently with both high and low occupancy levels, and it's only
>> responsible of me to investigate ways to reduce the budget requirement for
>> the total system. Money is probably not a factor here, but bigger, bigger,
>> bigger also means bigger headaches when you have 8 inverters to maintain
>> rather than 6 or 4.
>>
>> I do have some other thoughts like ensuring the well pump doesn't turn on
>> while the Air Conditioning is running. Since it's on a float switch with
>> ample at-grade storage, I don't really care if it runs only at periods of
>> light load.
>>
>> You do have a point about turning refrigerators on and off by switching
>> power. I might look into ways to cut the compressor using controls in the
>> refrigerators instead. That will be a conversation with Sub-Z to see if
>> they care that power is cycled during operation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 8:16 PM Jay  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> You've got to plan on them all starting at once anyway. You can't expect
>>> that it'll never happen.
>>>
>>> And really how do you prevent it. The refrigerators and AC's are on all
>>> the time waiting for the thermostat to activate.  And it's not good to turn
>>> a working fridge on/off especially is the compressor is running.
>>>
>>> Bigger loads, bigger inverters, bigger dollars.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know"
>>> when the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX
>>> relay or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it
>>> will be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but
>>> maybe. I guess the question is how to 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances

2019-09-13 Thread Jason Szumlanski
I'll let you all know once we sort this out.

A series of blade type disconnects could work. I'm not doing the AC
distribution past the inverters, but I need to consult with the electrical
contractor so I'm driving the bus at this point. Some combination of manual
and automated controls should work.





On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 10:10 PM Jay  wrote:

> We don’t know how you have the AC distribution set up.
>
> If you have a main that then distributes to sub panels, how about relays
> on delay timers that go to each sub. 3-5 seconds would be more than enough.
>
> Or mechanical discos with simple instructions of delay between each.
> But yea people have to read and comprehend and it’s probably dark so maybe
> the delay timers.
>
> Let us know what you end up using
>
> Jay
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 12, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>
> Jason, any chance of one of the "help" being made knowledgeable to manage
> this? In a way this is what I do for my offgrid clients. If they won't, I
> walk away because it is just to complicated at this stage in RE. Hoping it
> will change!
>
> I get them up to speed on managing loads and understanding what is going
> on with the power. This saves me from the headache. Explain that it can
> save them quite a bit of money also.  I do not envy you and income is
> important.  Good Luck!
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:39:13 -0400, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> I definitely understand that I can't prevent it 100%, but I can surely
> mitigate the likelihood. It's highly unlikely that all 10 refrigerators
> will all start simultaneously based on temperature with the well pump and
> two air conditioners except when power is first applied. Moreso than the
> ATS changeover, I'm concerned about scenarios where everything is
> completely off at the property and the inverter breakers are flipped on.
> Then I'm essentially guaranteed I'll have 15 motors all trying to start at
> the same time. I'm planning 27-32kW of capacity, which may well be enough
> depending on how gentle the HVAC units start, but I want to have a strategy
> in case things don't go as planned.
>
> I was thinking that the ATS would be a good strategy to trigger time
> delays because it would be implemented whether it was a startup from no
> power source or during power source transfer.
>
> The challenge here is that more than half of these loads will be used
> maybe a few weeks a year. I'm tasked with designing a system that will
> operate efficiently with both high and low occupancy levels, and it's only
> responsible of me to investigate ways to reduce the budget requirement for
> the total system. Money is probably not a factor here, but bigger, bigger,
> bigger also means bigger headaches when you have 8 inverters to maintain
> rather than 6 or 4.
>
> I do have some other thoughts like ensuring the well pump doesn't turn on
> while the Air Conditioning is running. Since it's on a float switch with
> ample at-grade storage, I don't really care if it runs only at periods of
> light load.
>
> You do have a point about turning refrigerators on and off by switching
> power. I might look into ways to cut the compressor using controls in the
> refrigerators instead. That will be a conversation with Sub-Z to see if
> they care that power is cycled during operation.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 8:16 PM Jay  wrote:
>
>>
>> You've got to plan on them all starting at once anyway. You can't expect
>> that it'll never happen.
>>
>> And really how do you prevent it. The refrigerators and AC's are on all
>> the time waiting for the thermostat to activate.  And it's not good to turn
>> a working fridge on/off especially is the compressor is running.
>>
>> Bigger loads, bigger inverters, bigger dollars.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>> That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" when
>> the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX relay
>> or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it will
>> be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but maybe. I
>> guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time the ATS
>> switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe.
>>
>> I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over
>> 100A @ 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all
>> those motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!)
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar <
>> mjmornings...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances

2019-09-12 Thread Jay
We don’t know how you have the AC distribution set up. 

If you have a main that then distributes to sub panels, how about relays on 
delay timers that go to each sub. 3-5 seconds would be more than enough. 

Or mechanical discos with simple instructions of delay between each. 
But yea people have to read and comprehend and it’s probably dark so maybe the 
delay timers. 

Let us know what you end up using 

Jay





> On Sep 12, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>  wrote:
> 
> Jason, any chance of one of the "help" being made knowledgeable to manage 
> this? In a way this is what I do for my offgrid clients. If they won't, I 
> walk away because it is just to complicated at this stage in RE. Hoping it 
> will change!
> 
> I get them up to speed on managing loads and understanding what is going on 
> with the power. This saves me from the headache. Explain that it can save 
> them quite a bit of money also.  I do not envy you and income is important.  
> Good Luck!
> 
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
>> On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:39:13 -0400, Jason Szumlanski 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I definitely understand that I can't prevent it 100%, but I can surely 
>> mitigate the likelihood. It's highly unlikely that all 10 refrigerators will 
>> all start simultaneously based on temperature with the well pump and two air 
>> conditioners except when power is first applied. Moreso than the ATS 
>> changeover, I'm concerned about scenarios where everything is completely off 
>> at the property and the inverter breakers are flipped on. Then I'm 
>> essentially guaranteed I'll have 15 motors all trying to start at the same 
>> time. I'm planning 27-32kW of capacity, which may well be enough depending 
>> on how gentle the HVAC units start, but I want to have a strategy in case 
>> things don't go as planned.
>>  
>> I was thinking that the ATS would be a good strategy to trigger time delays 
>> because it would be implemented whether it was a startup from no power 
>> source or during power source transfer.
>>  
>> The challenge here is that more than half of these loads will be used maybe 
>> a few weeks a year. I'm tasked with designing a system that will operate 
>> efficiently with both high and low occupancy levels, and it's only 
>> responsible of me to investigate ways to reduce the budget requirement for 
>> the total system. Money is probably not a factor here, but bigger, bigger, 
>> bigger also means bigger headaches when you have 8 inverters to maintain 
>> rather than 6 or 4.
>>  
>> I do have some other thoughts like ensuring the well pump doesn't turn on 
>> while the Air Conditioning is running. Since it's on a float switch with 
>> ample at-grade storage, I don't really care if it runs only at periods of 
>> light load. 
>>  
>> You do have a point about turning refrigerators on and off by switching 
>> power. I might look into ways to cut the compressor using controls in the 
>> refrigerators instead. That will be a conversation with Sub-Z to see if they 
>> care that power is cycled during operation.
>>  
>>  
>>   
>>  
>> 
>>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 8:16 PM Jay  wrote:
>>>  
>>> You've got to plan on them all starting at once anyway. You can't expect 
>>> that it'll never happen. 
>>>  
>>> And really how do you prevent it. The refrigerators and AC's are on all the 
>>> time waiting for the thermostat to activate.  And it's not good to turn a 
>>> working fridge on/off especially is the compressor is running. 
>>>  
>>> Bigger loads, bigger inverters, bigger dollars. 
>>>  
>>> Jay
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 
 On Sep 11, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski 
  wrote:
 
 That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" when 
 the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX 
 relay or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think 
 it will be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but 
 maybe. I guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time the 
 ATS switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe.
  
 I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over 100A @ 
 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all those 
 motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!)
  
 Jason

 
  
 
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar 
>  wrote:
>  
> Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable 
> time delay relays. Stagger the timing.
> 
>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer 
>> from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high 
>> startup load appliances 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances

2019-09-12 Thread Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar


Jason, any chance of one of the "help" being made knowledgeable to
manage this? In a way this is what I do for my offgrid clients. If they
won't, I walk away because it is just to complicated at this stage in RE.
Hoping it will change! 

I get them up to speed on managing loads and
understanding what is going on with the power. This saves me from the
headache. Explain that it can save them quite a bit of money also. I do not
envy you and income is important. Good Luck! 
Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Thu, 12 Sep 2019
17:39:13 -0400, Jason Szumlanski  wrote:I definitely understand that I
can't prevent it 100%, but I can surely mitigate the likelihood. It's
highly unlikely that all 10 refrigerators will all start simultaneously
based on temperature with the well pump and two air conditioners except
when power is first applied. Moreso than the ATS changeover, I'm concerned
about scenarios where everything is completely off at the property and the
inverter breakers are flipped on. Then I'm essentially guaranteed I'll have
15 motors all trying to start at the same time. I'm planning 27-32kW of
capacity, which may well be enough depending on how gentle the HVAC units
start, but I want to have a strategy in case things don't go as planned.  
I was thinking that the ATS would be a good strategy to trigger time delays
because it would be implemented whether it was a startup from no power
source or during power source transfer.   The challenge here is that more
than half of these loads will be used maybe a few weeks a year. I'm tasked
with designing a system that will operate efficiently with both high and
low occupancy levels, and it's only responsible of me to investigate ways
to reduce the budget requirement for the total system. Money is probably
not a factor here, but bigger, bigger, bigger also means bigger headaches
when you have 8 inverters to maintain rather than 6 or 4.   I do have some
other thoughts like ensuring the well pump doesn't turn on while the Air
Conditioning is running. Since it's on a float switch with ample at-grade
storage, I don't really care if it runs only at periods of light load.   
You do have a point about turning refrigerators on and off by switching
power. I might look into ways to cut the compressor using controls in the
refrigerators instead. That will be a conversation with Sub-Z to see if
they care that power is cycled during operation.  

  On Wed,
Sep 11, 2019 at 8:16 PM Jay  wrote: You've got to plan on them all
starting at once anyway. You can't expect that it'll never happen.And
really how do you prevent it. The refrigerators and AC's are on all the
time waiting for the thermostat to activate. And it's not good to turn a
working fridge on/off especially is the compressor is running.Bigger
loads, bigger inverters, bigger dollars.Jay 
On Sep 11, 2019, at
4:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski  wrote:

That is what I was thinking, but how
will the contactor coils "know" when the ATS switches to inverter power.
I'm thinking I need to use an AUX relay or a series of relays to produce
the desired result. I don't think it will be necessary when going from
solar to generator in this case, but maybe. I guess the question is how to
activate the time delay any time the ATS switches over. That would be the
easiest solution maybe.   I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system
here. Even at over 100A @ 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some
startup issues with all those motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure
pumps also!)   Jason  

  On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael
Morningstar  wrote: Put the loads on contractors, control the
contractors with adjustable time delay relays. Stagger the timing. 
On Sep
11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski  wrote:

In an off-grid
situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer from generator
power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup load
appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z
large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air
conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call
to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any
ideas?   I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll,
keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's
going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of
ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this
appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)?
Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group  

   
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances

2019-09-12 Thread Jason Szumlanski
I definitely understand that I can't prevent it 100%, but I can surely
mitigate the likelihood. It's highly unlikely that all 10 refrigerators
will all start simultaneously based on temperature with the well pump and
two air conditioners except when power is first applied. Moreso than the
ATS changeover, I'm concerned about scenarios where everything is
completely off at the property and the inverter breakers are flipped on.
Then I'm essentially guaranteed I'll have 15 motors all trying to start at
the same time. I'm planning 27-32kW of capacity, which may well be enough
depending on how gentle the HVAC units start, but I want to have a strategy
in case things don't go as planned.

I was thinking that the ATS would be a good strategy to trigger time delays
because it would be implemented whether it was a startup from no power
source or during power source transfer.

The challenge here is that more than half of these loads will be used maybe
a few weeks a year. I'm tasked with designing a system that will
operate efficiently with both high and low occupancy levels, and it's only
responsible of me to investigate ways to reduce the budget requirement for
the total system. Money is probably not a factor here, but bigger, bigger,
bigger also means bigger headaches when you have 8 inverters to maintain
rather than 6 or 4.

I do have some other thoughts like ensuring the well pump doesn't turn on
while the Air Conditioning is running. Since it's on a float switch with
ample at-grade storage, I don't really care if it runs only at periods of
light load.

You do have a point about turning refrigerators on and off by switching
power. I might look into ways to cut the compressor using controls in the
refrigerators instead. That will be a conversation with Sub-Z to see if
they care that power is cycled during operation.





On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 8:16 PM Jay  wrote:

> You’ve got to plan on them all starting at once anyway. You can’t expect
> that it’ll never happen.
>
> And really how do you prevent it. The refrigerators and AC’s are on all
> the time waiting for the thermostat to activate.  And it’s not good to turn
> a working fridge on/off especially is the compressor is running.
>
> Bigger loads, bigger inverters, bigger dollars.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Sep 11, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" when
> the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX relay
> or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it will
> be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but maybe. I
> guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time the ATS
> switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe.
>
> I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over 100A @
> 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all those
> motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!)
>
> Jason
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar <
> mjmornings...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable
>> time delay relays. Stagger the timing.
>>
>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer
>> from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup
>> load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z
>> large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air
>> conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call
>> to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any
>> ideas?
>>
>> I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll,
>> keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's
>> going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of
>> ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this
>> appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)?
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances

2019-09-12 Thread Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar


Which models do you like from ASCO Christopher? Something like this
below?


https://www.ascopower.com/us/en/product-range-presentation/66110-asco-series-185-power-transfer-switch/
[1] 
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[3]
text 209 813 0060

On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:32:03 -0400, Chris Schaefer 
wrote:  Jason,   Given all of the equipment you're looking at I'd consider
using a small shoe box sized PLC. Relays and timers are good but the PLC
will give you a lot more flexibility in a very small package and will be
able to sense when the ATS switch transfers. I enjoy using the ASCO unit as
it offers dry contacts. As for the PLC I'd consider Opto 22 but any PLC
will do. Just gotta be careful as to some require you buy programming
tools.   Christopher  
  On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 11:54 AM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:  Outback inverters can do that, start and stop the genny, start up
if loads are above a programmed setting. I have used Lutron for a similar
application that turned one AC on at a time. You can use the inverter to
turn off load(s) if they is/are to high, it's all programable Jerry  
  On
Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 2:42 PM Jason Szumlanski  wrote:   In an off-grid
situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer from generator
power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup load
appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z
large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air
conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call
to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any
ideas?   I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll,
keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's
going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of
ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this
appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)?
Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group  


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances

2019-09-12 Thread Chris Schaefer
Jason,

Given all of the equipment you're looking at I'd consider using a small
shoe box sized PLC. Relays and timers are good but the PLC will give you a
lot more flexibility in a very small package and will be able to sense when
the ATS switch transfers. I enjoy using the ASCO unit as it offers dry
contacts. As for the PLC I'd consider Opto 22 but any PLC will do. Just
gotta be careful as to some require you buy programming tools.

Christopher

On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 11:54 AM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> Outback inverters can do that, start and stop the genny, start up if loads
> are above a programmed setting. I have used Lutron for a similar
> application that turned one AC on at a time. You can use the inverter to
> turn off load(s) if they is/are to high, it's all programable
> Jerry
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 2:42 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer
>> from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup
>> load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z
>> large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air
>> conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call
>> to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any
>> ideas?
>>
>> I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll,
>> keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's
>> going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of
>> ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this
>> appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)?
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances

2019-09-12 Thread Jerry Shafer
Outback inverters can do that, start and stop the genny, start up if loads
are above a programmed setting. I have used Lutron for a similar
application that turned one AC on at a time. You can use the inverter to
turn off load(s) if they is/are to high, it's all programable
Jerry

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 2:42 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer
> from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup
> load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z
> large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air
> conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call
> to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any
> ideas?
>
> I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll,
> keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's
> going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of
> ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this
> appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)?
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances

2019-09-12 Thread Chris Mason
The Generac SMM senses the generator, probably won't work for solar.
It's easy to do a contactor with time delay relay, those devices are
available off the shelf.
As long as power goes off then back on, the time delay unit will back off
for the set time.
You can probably find a device that is an integrated delay start.

On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 11:14 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:

> Generac has a pretty cool device that really needs to get emulated in the
> solar industry called the smart management module.  It's a standalone smart
> relay that can be programmed via dip switches to do just this, bring
> devices on line in stages and drop them if the generator is getting
> overloaded.  I believe it works from frequency dip but Im not sure.  The
> nice thing about it is that it does not require any signal wiring from
> generator or ATS to do this, its just monitoring line voltage.  This is
> really designed for grid/generator application but it would be really
> helpful for applications like this.  Maybe you could use a home automation
> system to do this?  Sonnen used to do this via Z-wave (I think) but I don't
> know the details of this.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 8:11 PM Jay  wrote:
>
>> You’ve got to plan on them all starting at once anyway. You can’t expect
>> that it’ll never happen.
>>
>> And really how do you prevent it. The refrigerators and AC’s are on all
>> the time waiting for the thermostat to activate.  And it’s not good to turn
>> a working fridge on/off especially is the compressor is running.
>>
>> Bigger loads, bigger inverters, bigger dollars.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>> That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" when
>> the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX relay
>> or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it will
>> be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but maybe. I
>> guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time the ATS
>> switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe.
>>
>> I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over
>> 100A @ 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all
>> those motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!)
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar <
>> mjmornings...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable
>>> time delay relays. Stagger the timing.
>>>
>>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer
>>> from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup
>>> load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z
>>> large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air
>>> conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call
>>> to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any
>>> ideas?
>>>
>>> I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll,
>>> keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's
>>> going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of
>>> ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this
>>> appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)?
>>>
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>>
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances

2019-09-12 Thread Mac Lewis
Generac has a pretty cool device that really needs to get emulated in the
solar industry called the smart management module.  It's a standalone smart
relay that can be programmed via dip switches to do just this, bring
devices on line in stages and drop them if the generator is getting
overloaded.  I believe it works from frequency dip but Im not sure.  The
nice thing about it is that it does not require any signal wiring from
generator or ATS to do this, its just monitoring line voltage.  This is
really designed for grid/generator application but it would be really
helpful for applications like this.  Maybe you could use a home automation
system to do this?  Sonnen used to do this via Z-wave (I think) but I don't
know the details of this.


On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 8:11 PM Jay  wrote:

> You’ve got to plan on them all starting at once anyway. You can’t expect
> that it’ll never happen.
>
> And really how do you prevent it. The refrigerators and AC’s are on all
> the time waiting for the thermostat to activate.  And it’s not good to turn
> a working fridge on/off especially is the compressor is running.
>
> Bigger loads, bigger inverters, bigger dollars.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Sep 11, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" when
> the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX relay
> or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it will
> be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but maybe. I
> guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time the ATS
> switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe.
>
> I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over 100A @
> 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all those
> motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!)
>
> Jason
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar <
> mjmornings...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable
>> time delay relays. Stagger the timing.
>>
>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer
>> from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup
>> load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z
>> large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air
>> conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call
>> to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any
>> ideas?
>>
>> I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll,
>> keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's
>> going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of
>> ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this
>> appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)?
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances

2019-09-11 Thread Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar


Jason, You may want XW pro. It is not much more than XW+ and will have a
better support for what you want in your microgrid. It also has twice the
warranty over xw+. 
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 18:24:18 -0400, Jason Szumlanski
wrote:   That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils
"know" when the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use
an AUX relay or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't
think it will be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case,
but maybe. I guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time
the ATS switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe.   I'm
probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over 100A @ 240V
continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all those
motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!)   Jason 


  On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar  wrote: Put the
loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable time delay
relays. Stagger the timing. 
On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski 
wrote:

In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage
transfer from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of
high startup load appliances planned for a system. Think 8
mini-refrigerators, one sub-z large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice
maker, not to mention air conditioning. I would like to start these loads
in stages if they all call to start up immediately upon system startup or
during ATS switch over. Any ideas?   I guess while I'm on the subject I
should ask about my eye-roll, keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn
problem with this ice maker. It's going to be outdoors in Florida and they
expect it to make 25-50 pounds of ice per day. I am finding it really hard
to estimate energy use for this appliance. Any ideas (other than the
obvious "don't do it" answer)? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design
Group  

   
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances

2019-09-11 Thread Jay
You’ve got to plan on them all starting at once anyway. You can’t expect that 
it’ll never happen. 

And really how do you prevent it. The refrigerators and AC’s are on all the 
time waiting for the thermostat to activate.  And it’s not good to turn a 
working fridge on/off especially is the compressor is running. 

Bigger loads, bigger inverters, bigger dollars. 

Jay



> On Sep 11, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski 
>  wrote:
> 
> That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" when the 
> ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX relay or a 
> series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it will be 
> necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but maybe. I guess 
> the question is how to activate the time delay any time the ATS switches 
> over. That would be the easiest solution maybe.
> 
> I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over 100A @ 
> 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all those 
> motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!)
> 
> Jason
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar 
>>  wrote:
>> Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable time 
>> delay relays. Stagger the timing.
>> 
>>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer from 
>>> generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup load 
>>> appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z 
>>> large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air 
>>> conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call 
>>> to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any 
>>> ideas?
>>> 
>>> I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, 
>>> keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's 
>>> going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of 
>>> ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this 
>>> appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances

2019-09-11 Thread Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar


Hi Jason,  

I would use soft start on everything that I can. The
mini-split already is soft start. There is a device that adds soft start to
appliances/loads below. 

https://www.raymondinnovations.com/ [1] 

In the
future Schneider and I assume Outback will have API's for their
electronics. Schneider has promised me this and with their Gateway, with a
station mode wifi built-in it will be doable. Simple IFTTT routines that
you set-up will do this and more. It can be set-up with voltage and if
clouds come-in, it shut down certain loads. Run loads during sun hours etc.
Kind of the old-school solenoids and AUX output control without any wiring.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[3]
text 209 813 0060

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 17:41:49 -0400, Jason Szumlanski
wrote:   In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage
transfer from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of
high startup load appliances planned for a system. Think 8
mini-refrigerators, one sub-z large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice
maker, not to mention air conditioning. I would like to start these loads
in stages if they all call to start up immediately upon system startup or
during ATS switch over. Any ideas?   I guess while I'm on the subject I
should ask about my eye-roll, keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn
problem with this ice maker. It's going to be outdoors in Florida and they
expect it to make 25-50 pounds of ice per day. I am finding it really hard
to estimate energy use for this appliance. Any ideas (other than the
obvious "don't do it" answer)? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design
Group  

  -- 

 

Links:
--
[1]
https://www.raymondinnovations.com/
[2]
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[3] mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances

2019-09-11 Thread Jason Szumlanski
That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" when
the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX relay
or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it will
be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but maybe. I
guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time the ATS
switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe.

I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over 100A @
240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all those
motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!)

Jason



On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar 
wrote:

> Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable time
> delay relays. Stagger the timing.
>
> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer
> from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup
> load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z
> large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air
> conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call
> to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any
> ideas?
>
> I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll,
> keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's
> going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of
> ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this
> appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)?
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances

2019-09-11 Thread Michael Morningstar
Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable time 
delay relays. Stagger the timing.

> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski 
>  wrote:
> 
> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer from 
> generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup load 
> appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z large 
> refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air 
> conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call to 
> start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any ideas?
> 
> I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, 
> keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's 
> going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of 
> ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this 
> appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)?
> 
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
> 
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