Re: [Readable-discuss] New Release?

2014-02-13 Thread Jörg F. Wittenberger 

Am 13.02.2014 14:18, schrieb Alan Manuel Gloria:
> On 2/13/14, "Jörg F. Wittenberger"  wrote:
>> Am 13.02.2014 09:50, schrieb Alan Manuel Gloria:
>>> I'm kinda sorta vaguely planning on a Scheme implementation which has
>>> STM at its core (basically, all non-transactional mutations are
>>> implicitly considered to be inside tiny transactions containing only
>>> that mutation).
>> Have you seen http://ball.askemos.org ?
> Err. not really, and it's a bit more large-scale than what I had in mind.

Yes, it certainly is.  Nevertheless the idea is, that the 
fault-tolerant, replicated state is some kind of STM.

>
>> Your idea reminds me so much to our reasoning.  Just because our
>> transactional memory was known to be horribly slow, we decided to have
>> two complementary Scheme-alike languages: one without any side effects
>> (no effects to be handled in STM, zero overhead) and one sub-language
>> having only the effects.  ((Though to distinguish them we chose to
>> express the latter in "long-wielded-s-expressions" a.k.a. "XML".))
>>
>> I'm pretty interested in your plans and progess.  Please keep me posted.
> It strikes me that the separation of purity and impurity here is
> almost precisely what Haskell does with the separation of the "actual"
> language and the IO data type.

In a way yes.

> In any case, my (vague) plan is a relatively simple R7RS compiler,
> with everything as a transaction (both mutations and reads), and the
> possibility to combine multiple transactions into a larger
> transaction.  I/O is a bit mind-bending, so I'll go with "not a
> transaction, and will throw an error if you put in a transaction,"
> which is the default handling in pretty much every STM implementation
> I've seen.

Again: please keep me postet.  Sounds interesting.

/Jörg

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Re: [Readable-discuss] New Release?

2014-02-13 Thread Alan Manuel Gloria 
On 2/13/14, "Jörg F. Wittenberger"  wrote:
>
> Am 13.02.2014 09:50, schrieb Alan Manuel Gloria:
>> I'm kinda sorta vaguely planning on a Scheme implementation which has
>> STM at its core (basically, all non-transactional mutations are
>> implicitly considered to be inside tiny transactions containing only
>> that mutation).
>
> Have you seen http://ball.askemos.org ?

Err. not really, and it's a bit more large-scale than what I had in mind.

>
> Your idea reminds me so much to our reasoning.  Just because our
> transactional memory was known to be horribly slow, we decided to have
> two complementary Scheme-alike languages: one without any side effects
> (no effects to be handled in STM, zero overhead) and one sub-language
> having only the effects.  ((Though to distinguish them we chose to
> express the latter in "long-wielded-s-expressions" a.k.a. "XML".))
>
> I'm pretty interested in your plans and progess.  Please keep me posted.

It strikes me that the separation of purity and impurity here is
almost precisely what Haskell does with the separation of the "actual"
language and the IO data type.  Truly pure functions return an IO
object, which can be combined in specific ways with other IO objects
(and with pure functions that return an IO object - for example, a
"read character" IO object can be combined with a pure function that
accepts a character and returns another IO object, forming a larger IO
object that reads a character and then does some other IO action in
response to that character).

Which is a rather big digression from readable lisps, haha.

In any case, my (vague) plan is a relatively simple R7RS compiler,
with everything as a transaction (both mutations and reads), and the
possibility to combine multiple transactions into a larger
transaction.  I/O is a bit mind-bending, so I'll go with "not a
transaction, and will throw an error if you put in a transaction,"
which is the default handling in pretty much every STM implementation
I've seen.

Sincerely,
AmkG

>
> /Jörg
>
>>If ever, it will of course have SRFI-105 by default
>> and SRFI-110 on #!sweet.
>>
>
>
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Re: [Readable-discuss] New Release?

2014-02-13 Thread Alan Manuel Gloria 
On 2/13/14, "Jörg F. Wittenberger"  wrote:
>
> Am 13.02.2014 09:50, schrieb Alan Manuel Gloria:
>> I'm kinda sorta vaguely planning on a Scheme implementation which has
>> STM at its core (basically, all non-transactional mutations are
>> implicitly considered to be inside tiny transactions containing only
>> that mutation).
>
> Have you seen http://ball.askemos.org ?

Err. not really, and it's a bit more large-scale than what I had in mind.

>
> Your idea reminds me so much to our reasoning.  Just because our
> transactional memory was known to be horribly slow, we decided to have
> two complementary Scheme-alike languages: one without any side effects
> (no effects to be handled in STM, zero overhead) and one sub-language
> having only the effects.  ((Though to distinguish them we chose to
> express the latter in "long-wielded-s-expressions" a.k.a. "XML".))
>
> I'm pretty interested in your plans and progess.  Please keep me posted.

It strikes me that the separation of purity and impurity here is
almost precisely what Haskell does with the separation of the "actual"
language and the IO data type.  Truly pure functions return an IO
object, which can be combined in specific ways with other IO objects
(and with pure functions that return an IO object - for example, a
"read character" IO object can be combined with a pure function that
accepts a character and returns another IO object, forming a larger IO
object that reads a character and then does some other IO action in
response to that character).

Which is a rather big digression from readable lisps, haha.

In any case, my (vague) plan is a relatively simple R7RS compiler,
with everything as a transaction (both mutations and reads), and the
possibility to combine multiple transactions into a larger
transaction.  I/O is a bit mind-bending, so I'll go with "not a
transaction, and will throw an error if you put in a transaction,"
which is the default handling in pretty much every STM implementation
I've seen.

Sincerely,
AmkG

>
> /Jörg
>
>>If ever, it will of course have SRFI-105 by default
>> and SRFI-110 on #!sweet.
>>
>
>
> --
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> Now with support for Jelly Bean, Bluetooth, Mapview and more.
> Get your Android app in front of a whole new audience.  Start now.
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Re: [Readable-discuss] New Release?

2014-02-13 Thread Jörg F. Wittenberger 

Am 13.02.2014 09:50, schrieb Alan Manuel Gloria:
> I'm kinda sorta vaguely planning on a Scheme implementation which has
> STM at its core (basically, all non-transactional mutations are
> implicitly considered to be inside tiny transactions containing only
> that mutation).

Have you seen http://ball.askemos.org ?

Your idea reminds me so much to our reasoning.  Just because our 
transactional memory was known to be horribly slow, we decided to have 
two complementary Scheme-alike languages: one without any side effects 
(no effects to be handled in STM, zero overhead) and one sub-language 
having only the effects.  ((Though to distinguish them we chose to 
express the latter in "long-wielded-s-expressions" a.k.a. "XML".))

I'm pretty interested in your plans and progess.  Please keep me posted.

/Jörg

>If ever, it will of course have SRFI-105 by default
> and SRFI-110 on #!sweet.
>


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Re: [Readable-discuss] New release of "readable" - version 0.9.4

2013-10-08 Thread David A. Wheeler 
On Tue, 8 Oct 2013 23:23:45 +0800, Alan Manuel Gloria  
wrote:
> Tried on a Debian 7.1 system with very few backports, guile 1.8, NO
> clisp, NO sbcl, and got:
...
> Looks fine, except for "checking final decision HAVE_COMMON_LISP...
> yes", when I have neither clisp nor sbcl installed... I don't remember
> installing any common lisp implementations (it's a pretty fresh
> reinstall), so that part looks strange.  Not breakingly strange, just strange.

Thanks very much for testing!  It's actually "working as intended", but
the configure report is unintentionally misleading.

The "configure" program is trying to install everything it can; by default, it
installs the Common Lisp library implementation source code.  Yes, there's no
clisp or sbcl, but maybe there's another Common Lisp implementation.

I've changed the "configure" report to be clearer; a sample is below.

--- David A. Wheeler


...
configure: Installing Common Lisp's library source code into a directory.
configure: WARNING: Prefix is not /usr; ensure ASDF configuration looks here.
checking Common Lisp lib dir (COMMON_LISP_LIB_DIR)... $(datadir)/common-lisp
checking for register-common-lisp-source... no
checking for unregister-common-lisp-source... no
checking whether ln -s works... yes
checking final decision INSTALL_COMMON_LISP_LIB... yes
checking final decision HAVE_REGISTER_COMMON_LISP_SOURCE... no
checking final decision HAVE_UNREGISTER_COMMON_LISP_SOURCE... no
checking for clisp... /usr/bin/clisp
checking if (require "asdf") is available in clisp... yes
checking final decision HAVE_CLISP... yes
checking for sbcl... no
checking final decision HAVE_SBCL... no
...

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Re: [Readable-discuss] New release of "readable" - version 0.9.4

2013-10-08 Thread Alan Manuel Gloria 
Tried on a Debian 7.1 system with very few backports, guile 1.8, NO
clisp, NO sbcl, and got:

checking for a BSD-compatible install... /usr/bin/install -c
checking whether build environment is sane... yes
checking for a thread-safe mkdir -p... /bin/mkdir -p
checking for gawk... no
checking for mawk... mawk
checking whether make sets $(MAKE)... yes
checking for a sed that does not truncate output... /bin/sed
checking for env... /usr/bin/env
checking for guile... /usr/bin/guile
checking final decision HAVE_GUILE... yes
configure: No GUILE_SITE value has been forceably set.
checking asking guile for its site directory... /usr/share/guile/site
checking Guile site directory (GUILE_SITE)  ... /usr/share/guile/site
checking if (ice-9 readline) is available... yes
checking for scsh... no
checking final decision HAVE_SCSH... no

configure: WARNING: Prefix is not /usr; ensure ASDF is configured to
look at this Common Lisp dir.
checking Common Lisp lib dir (COMMON_LISP_LIB_DIR)... $(datadir)/common-lisp
checking for register-common-lisp-source... no
checking for unregister-common-lisp-source... no
checking whether ln -s works... yes
checking final decision HAVE_COMMON_LISP... yes
checking final decision HAVE_REGISTER_COMMON_LISP_SOURCE... no
checking final decision HAVE_UNREGISTER_COMMON_LISP_SOURCE... no
checking for clisp... no
checking final decision HAVE_CLISP... no
checking for sbcl... no
checking final decision HAVE_SBCL... no

checking default markdown command... python "$(srcdir)/markdown2.py"
-x link-patterns --link-patterns-file markdown-urls
checking for a Python interpreter with version >= 2.4... python
checking for python... /usr/bin/python
checking for python version... 2.7
checking for python platform... linux2
checking for python script directory... ${prefix}/lib/python2.7/dist-packages
checking for python extension module directory...
${exec_prefix}/lib/python2.7/dist-packages
checking final decision HAVE_MARKDOWN... yes
checking for expect... /usr/bin/expect

configure: creating ./config.status
config.status: creating Makefile

Looks fine, except for "checking final decision HAVE_COMMON_LISP...
yes", when I have neither clisp nor sbcl installed... I don't remember
installing any common lisp implementations (it's a pretty fresh
reinstall), so that part looks strange.  Not breakingly strange, just
strange.

On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, David A. Wheeler  wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Oct 2013 15:17:12 -0400, Dale Visser  wrote:
>
>> It worked nicely for me. The new, more verbose, warnings, are very helpful.
>
> Awesome!!  That's fantastic.
>
> If anyone else could give the updated version 0.9.4 a try, that'd be great.
>
>
> --- David A. Wheeler
>
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Re: [Readable-discuss] New release of "readable" - version 0.9.4

2013-10-07 Thread David A. Wheeler 
On Mon, 7 Oct 2013 15:17:12 -0400, Dale Visser  wrote:

> It worked nicely for me. The new, more verbose, warnings, are very helpful.

Awesome!!  That's fantastic.

If anyone else could give the updated version 0.9.4 a try, that'd be great.


--- David A. Wheeler

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Re: [Readable-discuss] New release of "readable" - version 0.9.4

2013-10-07 Thread Dale Visser 
It worked nicely for me. The new, more verbose, warnings, are very helpful.


On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:03 PM, David A. Wheeler wrote:

> Here's a new release of the "readable" software.
>
> The code itself is basically unchanged, what's changed is how it
> configures and builds.
>
> This version tries to maximally automagically determine how to install on
> the given system; it also reports a lot of warnings for likely problems.
>  I've even added a command to configure clisp to work with ASDF, to make
> that easier.
>
> Please test it out on various systems.  Hopefully, it'll all work
> smoothly, and we can create a final version 1.0.0 release.
>
> --- David A. Wheeler
>
>
>
>
>
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