The answer maybe that a one size fits all theory does not work; we may need
some traditional balancing. Some of that is clearly dictated by societal norms
-- so we no longer accept binding of feet as acceptable (although that never
had a religious basis). Anti-discrimination laws, for example,
Fair question, Eugene. I recognize that the state does intervene to protect
children from some parental decisions that cause them physical or psychological
harm or risk causing them physical or psychological harm. But I think the list
of harm causing or potentially harm causing decisions which t
Mark --
My understanding is that this particular case is at an end, and the state
intermediate appellate court's ruling stands, because the prosecution chose not
to appeal. So any change will have to come by means of another case or
legislative action.
Eric
_
U
From: Finkelman, Paul
[mailto:paul.finkel...@albanylaw.edu]
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 12:43 PM
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: German circumcision decision
there is mixed evidence on circumcision. Some suggesting it helps prevent
cervical cancer in female partner
I'm skeptical about Mark's historical argument (though I do
agree that if foreskin regeneration were easy and reliable, we'd have much less
of an argument for banning circumcision). But as to the "reprehensible"
"ethics" of the decision, the question is why we should weigh "dest
Alan: But our legal system also bars parents from physically
acting towards their children in various other ways. Parents may not beat
their children beyond a certain point. Parents may not excise their girls'
genitalia. Parents may not consent to their children's having sex
[Via ABC News,
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/german-minister-moves-calm-circumcision-fears-16688475.
I realize that this is not responsive to US constitutional law questions, but
I thought list members would like to see this story.]
German Minister Moves to Calm Circumcision Fear
It seems to me that a vast range of laws - including laws that
Paul and others would very much support - can equally be described as imposing
"semi-religious, ethical view[s]" on others. After all, at the bottom of many
laws is an ethical judgment that can't be proven or disprov
I should think there is a very big difference between physical
imprints - in the form of surgery - and psychological ones. That explains why
we limit parental physical abuse of minors much more than parental
psychological abuse of minors, why we ban female circumcision but not r
I don't see why it's "religio-cultural[ly] insensitiv[e]" to
say that a decision made for medical reasons is permissible but a decision made
for religious reasons is not; or if it is religio-culturally insensitive, I
would be proudly religio-culturally insensitive in many instanc
Marty: Everything you say is sensible, and I agree that the
case is difficult. This is precisely why a one-line statement about German
history is inadequate to advance the ball much on this. As a general matter,
it seems to me that a country's 70-year-old crimes tell much abou
An analogy between male circumcision and ear-piercing is no
more dispositive than an analogy between male circumcision and female
circumcision, it seems to me. There’s a spectrum here: Normal ear-piercing
has virtually no effects on bodily function, since there seem to be no re
This just pushed one of my buttons. My parents apparently thought "let them choose when they grow up" was a sensible way to deal with the issues of a "mixed marriage". (He was an insufferable "cultural" Jew, she a theologically illiterate Protestant.) What really happened on the planet Earth was
With regard to the US and our 1st Amendment:
I've been suggesting for some time informally that we should consider a
historical (an historical?) approach to free exercise. Those religious
practices that have been accepted for a long time in our society settings (and
modern analogues) should be
Howard's point about psychological versus physical imprinting of parents'
views is well taken. And it highlights what I see as the central issue here,
which is the degree to which we as a society are willing to permit a range
of views and actions to exist in subsidiary communities, even when they m
I put cruel in quotation marks because while Kosher or Halal slaughtering may
be less instant than other kinds, given the horrible treatment of animals in
feed lots and at commercial slaughterhouses, it seems that the "cruel" is
clearly relative. A proper Kosher slaughtering takes only a few se
I'm not clear why Paul puts "cruel" in scare quotes. It seems clear--see Temple
Grandin's lifework--that it IS less humane than other possible means of
slaughtering. Perhaps it has to be tolerated, but we shouldn't avoid the truth.
Sandy
From: religionlaw-boun..
As a matter of fact, I'm quite certain the case involved a botched Moslem
circumcision. And I strongly suspect there is more anti-Islamic sentiment than
traditional anti-Semitism (directed at Jews) in contemporary Germany. Indeed,
the decision offers an opportunity for Jews and Moslems to unite.
Article 4 of the German constitution (go here: <
https://www.btg-bestellservice.de/pdf/80201000.pdf>) protects not only
freedom of conscience, but the equivalent of free exercise ("the
undisturbed practice of religion"). The court dealt with this in fairly
summary fashion: "The parents' fundamental
Alan's point raises another analytical issue. If "don't harm the body" is a
semi-religious, ethical view, then aren't the German court and the proponents
of the SF measure simply imposing their religious values on those of others who
have a different faith. I think it is not unreasonable to see
I agree with almost of all of Marty's thoughtful post -- except that I do not
see this as a difficult case. When an attempt was made to place this issue on
the ballot in San Francisco, some people argued medical and health concerns
(although as Marty and Paul point out, the evidence here is inde
The basic issue, it seems to me, is the right of parents to instill a
particular religious faith in their children. Requiring parents to raise their
children with no religious faith so the children can decide on their religion
when they become adults is not a satisfactory alternative to anyone
there is mixed evidence on circumcision. Some suggesting it helps prevent
cervical cancer in female partners; some that lowers the spread of STDs. The
research is mixed and politicized (like lots of research) but there is evidence
it has medical value.
***
Isn't there still a substantial body of medical opinion--perhaps not as
prevalent as in decades past--that recommends circumcision as a preventive
health measure? If the issue is the lack of consent from the subject of the
operation, this certainly affects more than just religious observance, and
m
I posted this before I had a chance to read the decision, which I now see is
about a Muslim case; that undermines some of my arguments, but not all of
them. The politics may be less about Jews than Muslims but the issue remains
the same -- a fundamental attack on religious minorities. I wonder
Actually, I don't think Paul's comment is a "one-liner" -- the fact that
this decision comes from Germany is surely the most striking and
disconcerting -- and important -- thing about it.
As far as "analysis" is concerned, well, how could there be a "correct"
answer? I think we can all agree that
Are they also banning parents from piercing the ears of children? In many
cultures it is common to see infant girls with pierced ears. Does the ban
extend to pierced ears before age 18? And then there is body piercing before
age 18. Is that being banned? Has the Court banned tattoos for peo
Any chance we could have some helpful analysis of the decision,
rather than one-liners? The question of the degree to which parents should be
able to permanently alter their children's bodies - for religious reasons or
otherwise - is not, it seems to me, one that has a completel
Seems likely that the folks in Cologne have not learned much from the history
of Germany. It is hard to know whether to be outraged or stunned by such a
decision coming from a German Court.
Paul Finkelman
President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law
Albany Law School
80 New
100% correct.
On Jul 1, 2012, at 11:09 AM, Eric Rassbach wrote:
>
> I'd be interested to know what the list thinks about the reasoning of the
> recent decision by a state appeals court in Cologne holding that performing a
> circumcision constituted the crime of bodily harm (similar to battery)
I'd be interested to know what the list thinks about the reasoning of the
recent decision by a state appeals court in Cologne holding that performing a
circumcision constituted the crime of bodily harm (similar to battery). You can
find a decent translation of the decision here:
http://adam1co
31 matches
Mail list logo
