Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/17/2004 3:22:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I had a neighbor, who characterized himself as "a born again Christian."  Knowing that I am Jewish, he one day presented me with literature from "Jews for Jesus."  He explained to me his reasons for doing so

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

the case yet.     -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 12:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information   Now you have made patent your concern:  proselytization.  But you

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/17/2004 12:20:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Its importance in communication is not subject to dispute.  My messages on this subject have been to the effect of its incalculable value in steering the hearer from rational considerations of t

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

On Friday, December 17, 2004, at 12:18 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The question of how much it is being used/abused I reflected on anecdotally from my experience litigating these cases for nearly twenty years.  A very quick electronic search on Lexis, of Supreme Court briefs, reveals some 300 p

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/17/2004 11:34:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (1) How important is the term in our conceptual scheme, (2) How much is it being abused, and (3) How difficult is it to rehabilitate the term, for example, by pointing out its salience in our conceptual sc

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/17/2004 10:59:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jim's point is that persuasion with which one agrees istypically not labeled "proselytizing". Rather, that term is reserved forpersuasion which is thought to be improper--and such impropriety i

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Pepperdine -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12/16/2004 7:22 PM Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information In a message dated 12/16/2004 9:55:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you think that experience requires a d

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/16/2004 5:14:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: namely that teaching and proselytizing religion tend to go hand in hand. Another very good reason for eliminating public schools, or as my liberal friends so often want to do, relying on the canadian model,

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

fundamental point remains true. Marc Stern   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Newsom Michael Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 3:37 PM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information   Could you explain

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/16/2004 9:55:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you think that experience requires a different conclusion, then you simply have not read the opposing briefs of a variety of groups on the opposite side from me in numerous constitutional case

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/16/2004 9:20:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The word is used loosely often, this I grant, but there is a difference between teaching about and proselytization howsoever easily one can drift from one to the other if unwary or if not trying

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Steve, I will not limit that remark to myself.  In fact I do not make this use of the term.  But in a constitutional law career nearing the twenty year mark, I no longer feel tentative about expressing what I think candor would require most to admit:  proselyzing is the ugly term (even though it i

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

On Thursday, December 16, 2004, at 12:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (As an aside, I always wonder that those with whom we agree never proselyze, they only offer irrefutable arguments, while those whose views are disagreeable are readily described as proselytizing.  There is, it seems, a knee-je

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/16/04 5:25:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: if we leave it to other non-public institutions to teach about it. Well, nongovernmental institutions anyway. I admit to a bit of concern regarding the use of the terms public and government interchangeably. 

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 5:19 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information   In a message dated 12/16/2004 5:14:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: namely that

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

leave it to other non-public institutions to teach about it.   -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 2:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information   In a message dated 12/16

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/16/2004 11:54:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It is not wrong to be concerned about stigma and exclusion, as some members of the Court have noted over the years.  But this is why education must including teaching about religion.  Stigma and exclusion

RE: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases

Law Academics Subject: RE: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases   The ADL has filed a very thoughtful brief elaborating on Marc and Paul's points. A link to it can be found on the their web cite http://www.adl.org/PresRele/SupremeCourt_33/4601_33.htm Alan Brownstein

RE: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases

Jewish teaching. And, of course, the focus on the commandments as such is rooted in a Christian rejection of the totality of the law. Marc stern   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 10:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subj

Re: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases

In a message dated 12/16/2004 11:40:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have to say that James Henderson's point about there being no differences, etc., seems to me undermined by the fact that he refers to the text in a way previously unfamiliar to me as the Ten Words rather

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Now you have made patent your concern:  proselytization.  But you seem to agree that teaching about religion is something other than proselytization.  (As an aside, I always wonder that those with whom we agree never proselyze, they only offer irrefutable arguments, while those whose views are di

Re: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases

Not to put too fine a point on these issues, but the for Roman Catholics and Lutherans, the 7th Commandment is a prohibition on stealing, not adultery. That illustrates the whole problem of putting up these monuments. What does it say to a child, for example, who passes the courthouse everyda

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

, 2004 10:23 AM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information   They are wrong be about it being unconstitutional to teach religion because the Supreme Court-including its most liberal and separationist justices –have said so repeat

Re: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases

I suspect we have a disagreement here that is verging on the theological. The text of Exod 20 contains many commandments; so does Denuteronomy 5. No matter how one counts them, or parses them, it there are clearly more than ten separate commandments in these chapters. Jews and Christians di

Re: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases

I have to say that James Henderson's point about there being no differences, etc., seems to me undermined by the fact that he refers to the text in a way previously unfamiliar to me as the Ten Words rather than the Ten Commandments.  Also, I assume that he doesn't literally mean "set out in ful

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

teaching about religion.   -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 7:58 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information   In a message dated 12/15/2004 4:53:39 PM Eastern Standard Time

RE: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases

] Subject: Re: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases   In a message dated 12/15/2004 4:52:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hm -- and some people say that the Protestant Empire is dead and gone. If one can display the Ten Commandments (five gets you ten that the

RE: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases

rejection of the totality of the law. Marc stern   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 10:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases   In a message dated

Re: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases

I want to second Ed Braton's thoughtful post, and inquire of anyone who knows whether the laws, rules, customs of the Jews prior to the acquisition of the Ten Commandments included prohibitions against murder and theft, for example.  If the answer is yes then all those who agree with

Re: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases

In a message dated 12/16/2004 9:10:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is fundamentally wrong as a matter of fact. There are far more than 10 commandments in what we know as the Ten Commandments. <>There are significant differences in numbering the commandments, differen

RE: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases

from denial of cert in City of Elkhart v. Book,532 u.s. 1059 Marc Stern -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed Brayton Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 10:38 AM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Steven Williams case

Re: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases

I must say, as it concerns the 10 commandments issue, that I'm not so concerned about the question of which text of the 10 commandments one uses as I am the question of why anyone rationally believes that they form the "basis of our laws" in the first place. At least 6 of the 10 commandments wo

RE: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases

alf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 7:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases   In a message dated 12/15/2004 4:52:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hm -- and some people say that the Protestant

Re: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases

In a message dated 12/15/2004 4:52:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hm -- and some people say that the Protestant Empire is dead and gone. If one can display the Ten Commandments (five gets you ten that the only version we are likely to see in any of these displays is the eva

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/15/2004 4:53:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No, that isnât the rub.  There is nothing like the EC that speaks to either biology or oxygen. Precisely.  And there's nothing in the EC that speaks to teaching about religion. Jim "Copies of the Constituti

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Law Academics Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information   I'm not sure that I understand the point here. Is it that it is acceptable for public school teachers to teach religious beliefs such as the resurrection of Jesus as historical fact? Or is it that it is too burde

Re: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases

Michael, you lose! The case in Texas has a Lutheran version of the 10 C on a monument put up by the Fraternal Order of the Eagles (a Minn. based organization, hence the Lutheran version, although with a King James Translation). There are hundreds of these FAO monuments around the country, but up

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information .:.

Law AcademicsSubject: RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information .:. No, that isn't the rub.  There is nothing like the EC that speaks to either biology or oxygen.   -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, De

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

No, that isn’t the rub.  There is nothing like the EC that speaks to either biology or oxygen.   -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 3:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual

RE: Steven Williams case and the Ten Commandments cases

Hm -- and some people say that the Protestant Empire is dead and gone. If one can display the Ten Commandments (five gets you ten that the only version we are likely to see in any of these displays is the evangelical Protestant version) along with other legal documents, that one can display the Ser

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/15/2004 3:47:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Rather than saddling teachers with a burden, perhaps the better course of action is not to try to âteachâ religion in the public schools at all. Of course, one might try to teach biology without discussing

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

] Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information   In a message dated 12/10/2004 1:14:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He teaches the resurrection as historical fact, even though it is   a religious belief which I and millions of other Americans deny

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Could you explain why liberals are wrong?   -Original Message- From: Marc Stern [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 1:12 PM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information   . Liberals

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Even more interesting in that story, I think, are two things. First, a spokesman for the school district points out that the 5th grade textbook that Mr. Williams uses contains a full copy of the Declaration of Independence. That alone shows that the ADF's press release titled "Declaration of In

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

I've said it before; I'll say it again: Don't cloud the issue with facts! :) NPR ran a story yesterday on the Williams case.  The link is here: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4224577.  According to the story, the principal had received many complaints about Williams over th

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

s.Chip Lupu Ira C. LupuF. Elwood & Eleanor Davis Professor of LawGeorge Washington University School of Law 2000 H St., NW Washington, DC 20052(202)994-7053  - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 2:39 PM

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 4:50:07 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm not sure that I understand the point here. Is it that it is acceptable for public school teachers to teach religious beliefs such as the resurrection of Jesus as historical fact? Or is it that it is to

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/11/2004 2:44:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Wouldn't all of this "balancing" have to be prediated on showing that Jefferson and (sometimes) Madison are representative of the founders' views?  This is not at all obvious, especially on the question of r

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Wouldn't all of this "balancing" have to be prediated on showing that Jefferson and (sometimes) Madison are representative of the founders' views? This is not at all obvious, especially on the question of religion. As judges are notoriously bad historians, I'm not sure that this is such an eas

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 1:16:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I looked over each of these assignments and I am dumbfounded by the assertion that these assignments inculcate belief.  They seem well crafted to guide a student into studying the tenets of, and learning abo

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

I like Prof. Levinson's hypo. Here's another one: Under Islam, Jesus is believed to have been born of the Virgin Mary and is considered a holy prophet. Read the Koran and other Islamic religion sources and contrast this view to the Christian view of Jesus as Messiah. On Friday, December 10, 2

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 9:29:46 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 12/10/2004 6:14:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Isn't it absolutely compelled that public school teachers say something like this?  I would be outraged if a teacher

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:18:35 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes (about the assignment to study Easter): *John Adams wrote, "Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." He also wrote a paper c

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In California 5th grade is US history. 6th grade is from the beginning of history to the fall of Rome. 7th grade goes on from the fall of Rome. Some discussion of Islam is appropriate for 7th grade. My wife teaches 6th grade. For the Egypt part, they mummify chicken legs. One year, those student

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 1:44:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It seems to me that the only relevant question in terms of this lawsuit is whether any of those assignments are properly given by this teacher to his students, not whether they might hypothetically be okay

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

It seems to me that the only relevant question in terms of this lawsuit is whether any of those assignments are properly given by this teacher to his students, not whether they might hypothetically be okay in a different set of circumstances. I say they clearly are not. And I didn't take Marc's

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 4:28:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Student writes "only a person of very low intelligence could believe this.  The works studied are less realistic than the Wizard of Oz and contemptible."  Only the worst form of moral monstr could believe tha

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 5:18:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But a corollary to the view that the state may not have opinions about the merits of Luke is that the state may not have opinions about what is an appropriate analysis of the book of Luke. Nothing in the Co

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 5:50:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm not sure that I understand the point here. Is it that it is acceptable for public school teachers to teach religious beliefs such as the resurrection of Jesus as historical fact? Alan, this is a nice t

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 6:14:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Isn't it absolutely compelled that public school teachers say something like this?  I would be outraged if a teacher presented as "fact" the giving of the Ten Commandments to Moses at Mount Sinai or, for that

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Jim Henderson asks, I think rhetorically, Will we really saddle our public school teachers with the burden of saying:  "of course, some people do not agree that this fact is true, some people specifically state that the circumstances described by this fact are false, some people find the ass

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

I'm not sure that I understand the point here. Is it that it is acceptable for public school teachers to teach religious beliefs such as the resurrection of Jesus as historical fact? Or is it that it is too burdensome for teachers to be "saddled" with the responsibility of telling their students

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

To begin with, at least some of the questions asked for interpretation and personal opinions. But 1. Does Jewish law require keeping kosher. 2. May orthodox women pray at the Western Wall. etc? MAG >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/10/04 5:23 PM >>> at the edges, maybe. but students are being taught t

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

California 5th grade curriculum appears at . It's hard to fit the assignment here into the state mandated framework. >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/10/2004 2:13:48 PM >>> In California 5th grade is US history. 6th grade is from the beg

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/10/2004 1:44:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It seems to me that the only relevant question in terms of this lawsuit is whether any of those assignments are properly given by this teacher to his students, not wh

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

at the edges, maybe. but students are being taught the essay form, not the substance. hence they can be graded by computer -- are at many colleges now are, from what I read. and there are forms of getting it right based on what is being presented. what are the 4 Noble Truths of Buddhism -- you

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

But, and this is the less polemical point, what constitutes appropriate analysis with quotes. And here is the modernist point, a reason, by the way, that some members of this list think public schools unconstitution. There is no neutral vantage point on which to do the grading. What constitutes

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Student writes "only a person of very low intelligence could believe this.  The works studied are less realistic than the Wizard of Oz and contemptible."  Only the worst form of moral monstr could believe that people who did believe in him deserve to be damned forever."  What grade.  Does it ma

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Student writes "only a person of very low intelligence could believe this.  The works studied are less realistic than the Wizard of Oz and contemptible."  Only the worst form of moral monstr could believe that people who did believe in him deserve to be damned forever."  What grade.  Does it

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 1:14:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He teaches the resurrection as historical fact, even though it is   a religious belief which I and millions of other Americans deny. Marc raises an interesting point here.  Because he has a belief about so

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Scarberry, Mark wrote: Perhaps we should wait for confirmation that the "Easter handout" is authentic before judging Mr. Williams based on it. The source for it is a webpage that is very hostile to Mr. Williams and to the Alliance Defense Fund. Yes, that's why I was sure to s

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

ool of Law   -Original Message- From: Ed Brayton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 11:44 AM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information   I think the folks in the school district that you refer to wo

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

I think the folks in the school district that you refer to would have had a pretty strong case that many of those assignments were impermissable. Was there ever a lawsuit filed in that case, by the way? At any rate, it has nothing to do with this situation. Let me ask you directly, Jim: do you

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

On Friday, December 10, 2004, at 02:27 PM, Ed Brayton wrote: Steven Jamar wrote: Is it a sociology class? I think it depends a lot on purpose and presentation. Mr. Williams teaches 5th grade. I should have been more clear -- I was responding to Henderson's inquiry about could such an assignment

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Steven Jamar wrote: Is it a sociology class? I think it depends a lot on purpose and presentation. Mr. Williams teaches 5th grade. Ed Brayton ___ To post, send message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Doubt my candor and sincerity about the matter if you choose to do so, but I would have no problem with the assignment posed by Sandy.   Of course, the teacher would be at great pains not to downgrade student responses that adopted viewpoints the teacher found to be odious, either that the Gospel

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

ehalf of Sanford Levinson Sent: Fri 12/10/2004 2:16 PM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Cc: Subject: RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information Imagine the following assignment by a Jewish teacher to his class in W

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

In a message dated 12/10/2004 1:55:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But would you care to lay odds on whether Mr. Williams had his students interview a Muslim family to find out how they celebrated Ramadan? I'd say they're probably slim to none. All of that will of course c

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Is it a sociology class? I think it depends a lot on purpose and presentation. I also think that we as lawyers, having been trained in a certain kind of compartmentalization and detachment and objectivity (please don't ignore the "certain kind" and blast me for an assertion I am not making), unde

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ed wrote: Yes, that one assignment, aside from the others and in an entirely different context, might be appropriate. But would you care to lay odds on whether Mr. Williams had his students interview a Muslim family to find out how they celebrated Ramadan? So my questio

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

& Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information IF this is typical of what the teacher was complaining about being forbidden to teach, the only question for the court is whether plaintiff will be liable for the school's attorneys fee under

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

a violation of the students' rights, why does a repetition make both okay? Kevin Cloonan Original message Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:55:04 -0500 From: Ed Brayton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information To: Law & Religion issues fo

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Robert K. Vischer wrote: Let’s focus on the assignment to interview a Christian family about Easter and present the findings, as that seems, at least in my view, to be the least egregious.  If Williams had given similar interview assignments covering other faith traditions at oth

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

& Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information   . Those who have followed my work over the years know I have been publicly critical of those who would prohibit teaching about religion. I have just completed-at the request of the Bible Literacy pro

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

It is not an easy line to draw, but schools can teach about religion, about religious beliefs, about the roles of religion in history, and so on. But schools cannot teach the religion as truth. The school can teach that Muslims belief there is but one god and Mohammed is his prophet, but cannot t

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 12:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information   Marc's humorous riposte provides, I suppose, all the analysis that he thinks the Williams' assignment justifies.  Hav

Re: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

Marc's humorous riposte provides, I suppose, all the analysis that he thinks the Williams' assignment justifies.  Having doubts, after laboring in the woodshed from time to time, that such humorous but otherwise pointless posts add anything of substance to the discussion, I will ask those who car

RE: Steven Williams Case - more factual information

IF this is typical of what the teacher was complaining about being forbidden to teach, the only question for the court is whether plaintiff will be liable for the school's attorneys fee under Rule 11, Marc Stern -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behal

RE: Steven Williams Case

Who has the burden of proving which was which? Marc Stern   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of A.E. Brownstein Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 5:47 PM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case   I tend to a

RE: Steven Williams Case

the teacher was peddling majoritarian religion in one form or another.          -Original Message- From: A.E. Brownstein [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 5:47 PM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case   If we

Re: Steven Williams Case

ed a specific ex ante curricular prohibition?  Why should the former be entitled to greater constitutional protection, apart from the fair-notice issue? - Original Message - From: A.E. Brownstein To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 4:39 PM Subje

RE: Steven Williams Case

: A.E. Brownstein [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 1:39 PM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case   I don't think Cockrel is really inconsistent with Marty's earlier statement that "Under the "government speec

Re: Steven Williams Case

ion, apart from the fair-notice issue? - Original Message - From: A.E. Brownstein To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case I don't think Cockrel is really inconsistent with Marty&

Re: Steven Williams Case

rc Stern To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 3:35 PM Subject: RE: Steven Williams Case What recent 6th circuit case recognizes a teachers right to speak? There is old first circuit law to this effect-going back to the Viet Nam era, but I do not re

Re: Steven Williams Case

On the power of public schools to monitor religious expression in class by public school teachers, see also Roberts v. Madigan, 921 F. 2d 1047 (10th Cir. 1990), which Michael Paulsen and I discuss in a Symposium in the Case Western Res. L. Rev. (43 CWR L Rev. at 851-52 for Paulsen's view; id.

Re: Steven Williams Case

By the way, my apologies for writing "hue" instead of "hew" a couple of posts back.  Inexcusable -- I fully expect to hear the hew and cry any time now . . .   ;-) - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 06, 20

Re: Steven Williams Case

In a message dated 12/6/2004 12:21:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In very brief:  Under the "government speech" doctrine, a state may require its teachers, in their official capacities (i.e., while teaching), to hue to the state's prescribed curriculum.  This is the majori

Re: Steven Williams Case

Stern   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty LedermanSent: Monday, December 06, 2004 3:20 PMTo: Law & Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: Re: Steven Williams Case   In very brief:  Under the "government speech&qu

RE: Steven Williams Case

rom: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Lederman Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 3:20 PM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case   In very brief:  Under the "government speech" doctrine, a state may require its t

Re: Steven Williams Case

but whether it must.     - Original Message - From: Ed Brayton To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 3:08 PM Subject: Re: Steven Williams Case Mr. Henderson-I disagree with your characterization of the situation. The title

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