Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers
I agree. The users would not even notice if you cut the power in half. One 2 meter repeater we took over was running on the 10 watt exciter with the amp bypassed for I don't know how long. The caretaker before we got it bypassed the amp because of desense or intermod or self oscillation issues, we used to have some high powered VHF paging transmitters close by that were exactly 600 Khz apart and no circulator, We are now blessed because they moved to 900. It was only when were replacing the functioning repeater we discovered the amp was bypassed, He never told anyone. tom On 9/7/2010 11:50 PM, Glenn (Butch) Kanvick wrote: Hi John. Sometimes you might not want to tel the others what you do to the repeater, then they cannot complain about any adjustments that you make. Butch, KE7FEL/r On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, W3ML w...@arrl.net mailto:w...@arrl.net wrote: Thanks to everyone for their comments and answers about my questions. I did turn it back so I am sure someone will say something. Once when a ham said he could not hit it, I drove over and sat outside his house with a 25 watt radio and brought it up with an S8 signal. It seems when a repeater goes up anywhere, someone will complain about something to do with it. Thanks and 73 John, W3ML
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers
More likely he had the radio programmed wrong. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: MCH m...@nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers His antenna could be in a null. It happens, as Murphy is a ham. Joe M.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers
His antenna could be in a null. It happens, as Murphy is a ham. Joe M. W3ML wrote: Thanks to everyone for their comments and answers about my questions. I did turn it back so I am sure someone will say something. Once when a ham said he could not hit it, I drove over and sat outside his house with a 25 watt radio and brought it up with an S8 signal. It seems when a repeater goes up anywhere, someone will complain about something to do with it. Thanks and 73 John, W3ML Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers
Hi John. Sometimes you might not want to tel the others what you do to the repeater, then they cannot complain about any adjustments that you make. Butch, KE7FEL/r On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, W3ML w...@arrl.net wrote: Thanks to everyone for their comments and answers about my questions. I did turn it back so I am sure someone will say something. Once when a ham said he could not hit it, I drove over and sat outside his house with a 25 watt radio and brought it up with an S8 signal. It seems when a repeater goes up anywhere, someone will complain about something to do with it. Thanks and 73 John, W3ML
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
WACOM specs their 6 cavity pass-reject cans at 2.2dB insertion loss. 2.0 dB down from 100 watts is 63 watts, so you're doing good. Remember, 3dB is going to take your power down 50%. 73, Mike WM4B From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of W3ML Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 10:55 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions Thanks Joe. We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector center pin had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not notice it. I still have one question though. Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming out of duplexer? Wacom 6 can type duplexer. That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help. 73 John, W3ML --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com , Joe k1ike_m...@... wrote: What make and model is the duplexer? I know of one instance that the loop inside the duplexer can come disconnected due to a bad solder joint, but can't remember what one it was. A search on this list should find it, as it was discussed recently. The first thing would be to check all connections for tightness. Do not over-tighten the connections! Just make sure that they are snug. If your knuckles are turning white, your tightening too much. N connectors need to be snug, UHF connectors need to be a little tighter, but not cranked down tight, but not until they break. What you can do is take the connecting cables off the transmit side cans and test the first one for power out. Then connect the next can in series and see if there is output from that can. This process should isolate the bad can(s). Disconnect the receiver while doing this just to be safe. MARK all the cables as to where they came from. Do not mix them up. It may be a bad cable, so if you find a problem make sure that it is not the interconnecting cable. If all the cans and cables test OK, their may be a problem on the receive side of the duplexer. Keep it simple, don't fool with the cans unless you prove that one is bad. This process is to eliminate the obvious before you go tinkering with the duplexer. Check the tightness of connections first, cables second, and lastly the cans. The process above will help you isolate the bad can so you hopefully only have to tinker with one can. The real fix would involve some test equipment. What do you have available? Service monitor, tracking generator? Others will probably have some good suggestions, these ideas are just off the top of my head. On 9/6/2010 9:37 AM, W3ML wrote: Hi, First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and learning as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been involved with a VHF repeater system. Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60 watts out of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80 out of duplexer it seemed to be working okay. But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at all. Radio still shows power coming out. Nothing was touch on the duplexer. Any ideas? 73 John, W3ML
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
I agree with Mike. 100 watts in, 70 watts out is about 1.5dB loss. That looks very good for a Wacom. What is the model of your duplexer? The WP-643 had a single bandpass can on each side that might change the estimated loss. Did you happen to look at the reflected power when you took the forward power readings? If you had reflected power, it could throw the forward reading off. What kind of a watt meter did you use? As long as you have no desense, I'd leave it alone. 73, Joe, K1ike On 9/6/2010 11:28 AM, Mike Besemer (WM4B) wrote: WACOM specs their 6 cavity pass-reject cans at 2.2dB insertion loss. 2.0 dB down from 100 watts is 63 watts, so you’re doing good. Remember, 3dB is going to take your power down 50%. 73, Mike WM4B *From:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *W3ML *Sent:* Monday, September 06, 2010 10:55 AM *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions Thanks Joe. We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector center pin had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not notice it. I still have one question though. Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming out of duplexer? Wacom 6 can type duplexer. That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help. 73 John, W3ML Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
Depending on the frequency seperation it sounds like it is in the ball park. Maybe even not enough loss. Quick in the head math short cut is that 1 db is about 25%. That would give you 75 watts out of the duplexer for 100 watts in. If it is 3 db, that is half power or 50 watts out for 100 in. Any loss between the two numbers could be correct. Again depending on the frequency seperation and isolation in DB, you can look for 1/2 to 1 DB per cavity. That is for each side. So 3 cans per side would be from 1.5 db to 3 db loss in the transmitt side and the same for the receive side. - Original Message From: W3ML w...@arrl.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, September 6, 2010 10:54:37 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions Thanks Joe. We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector center pin had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not notice it. I still have one question though. Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming out of duplexer? Wacom 6 can type duplexer. That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help. 73 John, W3ML
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
In that spirit. Going from 80 to 100 watts is 0.97 db better. That's probably not an improvement your users will notice. When one considers what a pain it is when the PA dies, it might not be worth it. Just my 2 cents but I think you're better off leaving the amp at 80 watts. -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 1:11 PM, W3ML wrote: It is great! I believe one should never quit learning about this hobby.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it has nothing to do with hardware... If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier. If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 10% faster, users will ask you what's changed on the repeater. Tell them you've increased the transmitter output 3 dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved coverage. Tell him guys...am I wrong? ;^) 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: Tim Sawyer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions In that spirit. Going from 80 to 100 watts is 0.97 db better. That's probably not an improvement your users will notice. When one considers what a pain it is when the PA dies, it might not be worth it. Just my 2 cents but I think you're better off leaving the amp at 80 watts.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
Hi, 70 watts out sounds OK. Duplexer's usually have about a 1 - 2db loss depends how they are set up, size of cavities etc and the model type. Duplexer loss = 10log(Pin/Pout) Duplexer Loss = 10Log(70/100)= -1.54dB. Peter On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 10:54 AM, W3ML w...@arrl.net wrote: Thanks Joe. We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector center pin had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not notice it. I still have one question though. Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming out of duplexer? Wacom 6 can type duplexer. That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help. 73 John, W3ML --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com, Joe k1ike_m...@... wrote: What make and model is the duplexer? I know of one instance that the loop inside the duplexer can come disconnected due to a bad solder joint, but can't remember what one it was. A search on this list should find it, as it was discussed recently. The first thing would be to check all connections for tightness. Do not over-tighten the connections! Just make sure that they are snug. If your knuckles are turning white, your tightening too much. N connectors need to be snug, UHF connectors need to be a little tighter, but not cranked down tight, but not until they break. What you can do is take the connecting cables off the transmit side cans and test the first one for power out. Then connect the next can in series and see if there is output from that can. This process should isolate the bad can(s). Disconnect the receiver while doing this just to be safe. MARK all the cables as to where they came from. Do not mix them up. It may be a bad cable, so if you find a problem make sure that it is not the interconnecting cable. If all the cans and cables test OK, their may be a problem on the receive side of the duplexer. Keep it simple, don't fool with the cans unless you prove that one is bad. This process is to eliminate the obvious before you go tinkering with the duplexer. Check the tightness of connections first, cables second, and lastly the cans. The process above will help you isolate the bad can so you hopefully only have to tinker with one can. The real fix would involve some test equipment. What do you have available? Service monitor, tracking generator? Others will probably have some good suggestions, these ideas are just off the top of my head. On 9/6/2010 9:37 AM, W3ML wrote: Hi, First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and learning as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been involved with a VHF repeater system. Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60 watts out of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80 out of duplexer it seemed to be working okay. But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at all. Radio still shows power coming out. Nothing was touch on the duplexer. Any ideas? 73 John, W3ML
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
Paul speaks the truth. I had one fellow who always insisted something was wrong with the repeater when the foliage came on the trees every spring. I tried to explain to him that the leaves and humidity were attenuating the signal and that it was just a fact of life for the fringe-area users. Nonetheless, he insisted that the power was down or the VSWR was up. After arguing (nicely) with this fellow for a couple of weeks, I programmed a voice message on the repeater that I could call at-will and then told him I'd installed a wattmeter at the site that interfaced with the controller. I then demonstrated it to him. The message read The forward power is 35 watts and the reflected power is 0.7 watts. With this new 'feature' installed, he turned his attention to improving his antenna system. 73, Mike WM4B From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Plack Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 5:04 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it has nothing to do with hardware... If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier. If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 10% faster, users will ask you what's changed on the repeater. Tell them you've increased the transmitter output 3 dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved coverage. Tell him guys...am I wrong? ;^) 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: Tim Sawyer mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions In that spirit. Going from 80 to 100 watts is 0.97 db better. That's probably not an improvement your users will notice. When one considers what a pain it is when the PA dies, it might not be worth it. Just my 2 cents but I think you're better off leaving the amp at 80 watts.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
I agree. Put it back to the original output. I always like to turn my stuff back at least 10%. Turn the beep tone up in volume, tell them you increased the power. see what they say. 73, Joe, K1ike On 9/6/2010 5:04 PM, Paul Plack wrote: John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it has nothing to do with hardware... If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier. If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 10% faster, users will ask you what's changed on the repeater. Tell them you've increased the transmitter output 3 dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved coverage. Tell him guys...am I wrong? ;^) 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - *From:* Tim Sawyer mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
Or speed up the CWID one or two WPM, or change to a slightly higher tone frequency. Top 40 stations sometimes still do this trick (pitching up their CD players or automation system playback speed maybe 1%) - some PD's are convinced that it improves ratings for one reason or another... --- Jeff -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 6:38 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions I agree. Put it back to the original output. I always like to turn my stuff back at least 10%. Turn the beep tone up in volume, tell them you increased the power. see what they say. 73, Joe, K1ike On 9/6/2010 5:04 PM, Paul Plack wrote: John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it has nothing to do with hardware... If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier. If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 10% faster, users will ask you what's changed on the repeater. Tell them you've increased the transmitter output 3 dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved coverage. Tell him guys...am I wrong? ;^) 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: Tim Sawyer mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
Guys .I have a similar problem with 2 repeaters but its in the receiver side .The maxon sm4450uhf receiver is tuned to the best it can be on the service monitor -115db and the bpbr duplexer is tuned to correct specs as far as I can see on the hp8921a .I have also tested the repeater in duplex mode into the service monitor and all good -115db no static, power out good Replaced the antenna and interconnecting cable is heliax and its all good I will be testing the antenna system with a new MFJ-269 antenna tester to make sure its ok .Transmission is a1 full distance but when a transmission is sent the repeater its good up close fast to come on but is slow to come on with distant stations. We are using a ctcss tone which I will be checking to see if it is correct .Saying that I should try it without the ctcss and see if it is better without the ctcss detection. Thank You ,Ian Wells Kerinvale Comaudio, 3A Murchison Street, Biloela.4715 Ph 0749922449 Mb 0409159932 Hm 0749922574 Fx 0749922767 www.kerinvalecomaudio.com.au ---Original Message--- From: Jeff DePolo Date: 7/09/2010 8:50:36 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions Or speed up the CWID one or two WPM, or change to a slightly higher tone frequency. Top 40 stations sometimes still do this trick (pitching up their CD players or automation system playback speed maybe 1%) - some PD's are convinced that it improves ratings for one reason or another... --- Jeff -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 6:38 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions I agree. Put it back to the original output. I always like to turn my stuff back at least 10%. Turn the beep tone up in volume, tell them you increased the power. see what they say. 73, Joe, K1ike On 9/6/2010 5:04 PM, Paul Plack wrote: John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it has nothing to do with hardware... If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier. If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 10% faster, users will ask you what's changed on the repeater. Tell them you've increased the transmitter output 3 dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved coverage. Tell him guys...am I wrong? ;^) 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: Tim Sawyer mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions faint_grain.jpg
