Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

[Le Bail Armel]

Indeed, saying "back to that" with some disdain reveals your are the physicist interested by properties of already structurally known compounds.The crystallographer says "towards the posibility to solve the structure of unknowncompounds" and for that you need the structure factors. Then comes the Rietveld refinement anyway.envoyé : 18 août 2023 à 17:00de : Alan W Hewat à : Le Bail Armel cc : "rietveld_l@ill.fr" objet : Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more peopleI have no problem with Rietveld's prize Armel. Crystallographers ignored the method for too long, fixated as they were on "structure factors". Even your own method harks back to that. The idea that physical parameters could be refined directly from the data is more a physicist's idea, which makes me think that physicists Loopstra and Van Laar had essential input. Rietveld was a crystallographer. In retrospect the prize might have been awarded to the trio, but in retrospect we also simplify reality.Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOpticsGrenoble, FRANCE (from phone)alan.he...@neutronoptics.com+33.476984168 VAT:FR79499450856http://NeutronOptics.com/hewat___   On Fri, 18 Aug 2023, 15:15 Le Bail Armel,  wrote:I would be curious if the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences has archivesconcerning this Gregori Aminoff 1995 Prize decision/investigation :http://www.cristal.org/rietv025/foto3.jpgWho was contacted as reference ? Was Loopstra contacted and if yes, anypositive answer from him ?;-)envoyé : 18 août 2023 à 11:30de : Alan W Hewat à : Le Bail Armel cc : rietveld_l@ill.frobjet : Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more peopleBonjour Armel.No, it was van Laar who initiated it. He was annoyed that I had praised Rietveld too much in my own accounts. http://hewat.net/science/ill-hewat.html 'History of the ILL from a personal perspective'.https://journals.iucr.org/j/issues/2016/04/00/es0421/ 'Hugo Rietveld (1932–2016)'  Alan Hewat, William I. F. David and Lambert van Eijck He sent me a draft paper that he proposed to publish, but I suggested a less critical version. He agreed, and later involved Henk Schenk in producing a softer version. So it's the opposite to what you assume - Van Laar's original paper was toned down in the joint paper:https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058 "The development of powder profile refinement at the Reactor Centre Netherlands at Petten" Bob van Laar and Henk SchenkWhy don't you write to van Laar and ask for a copy of his original version (abstract below)Facts about the Profile refinement method in Powder diffraction.Bob van Laar, AmsterdamJustification of the present paperThe aim of this paper is to give detailed historical insight in the procedure that led to thedevelopment of the profile refinement of neutron powder data, since then known as the'Rietveld method'. The present paper has been written by the last person still alive, involvedin the development of this method (Loopstra died in november 1998). The purpose is tocorrect some incorrectness's that have been connected to the method in course of time.Kind regards, Alan.On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 at 10:51, Le Bail Armel  wrote:Bonjour Alan,My problem with the Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk paper is that it would have beencredible if signed by van Laar alone or better by Loopstra and van Laar and also ifpublished before 1980 or 1990, not in 2018.That 2018 paper looks strongly as initiated by Henk Schenk and the main argumentsinside are from old Rietveld-Schenk interferences, especially the story when Rietveld refused to plaid guilty after being accused by Schenk in a very strange manner.Now, the fact that Schenk was IUCr President may be sufficient for many people tobelieve in his version of the story. It was not sufficient for Hugo Rietveld and it is notsufficient for me.BestArmelPS - Why to insert a reference to the 1981 Pawley paper in a 1988 paper where hismethod was not used but another method much later named "Le Bail method" andbased on the Rietveld (Loopstra ??? proove it please) decomposition formula ?envoyé : 16 août 2023 à 19:08de : Alan W Hewat à : Le Bail Armel cc : "rietveld_l@ill.fr" objet : Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more peopleBonjour Armel. In answer to your question "Where did they find the text of the judgement ?" please see:"The development of powder profile refinement at the Reactor Centre Netherlands at Petten" Bob van Laar and Henk Schenkhttps://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058Van Laar worked at Petten with Rietveld, and Schenk was the IUCr president. This paper is apparently the basis of Mittemeijer's book. His point is that scientific discoveries are often the result of the work of many people, yet we tend to simplify the process and 

Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

[Alan W Hewat]

I have no problem with Rietveld's prize Armel. Crystallographers ignored
the method for too long, fixated as they were on "structure factors". Even
your own method harks back to that. The idea that physical parameters could
be refined directly from the data is more a physicist's idea, which makes
me think that physicists Loopstra and Van Laar had essential input.
Rietveld was a crystallographer. In retrospect the prize might have been
awarded to the trio, but in retrospect we also simplify reality.


Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics
Grenoble, FRANCE (from phone)
alan.he...@neutronoptics.com
+33.476984168 VAT:FR79499450856
http://NeutronOptics.com/hewat
___


On Fri, 18 Aug 2023, 15:15 Le Bail Armel,  wrote:

> I would be curious if the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences has archives
>
> concerning this Gregori Aminoff 1995 Prize decision/investigation :
>
> http://www.cristal.org/rietv025/foto3.jpg
>
> Who was contacted as reference ? Was Loopstra contacted and if yes, any
>
> positive answer from him ?
>
> ;-)
>
>
>
> *envoyé :* 18 août 2023 à 11:30
> *de :* Alan W Hewat 
> *à :* Le Bail Armel 
> *cc :* rietveld_l@ill.fr
> *objet :* Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some
> more people
>
> Bonjour Armel.
>
> No, it was van Laar who initiated it. He was annoyed that I had praised
> Rietveld too much in my own accounts.
> http://hewat.net/science/ill-hewat.html* 'History of the ILL from a
> personal perspective'.*
> https://journals.iucr.org/j/issues/2016/04/00/es0421/ '*Hugo Rietveld
> (1932–2016)'*  Alan Hewat, William I. F. David and Lambert van Eijck
>  He sent me a draft paper that he proposed to publish, but I suggested
> a less critical version. He agreed, and later involved Henk Schenk in
> producing a softer version. So it's the opposite to what you assume - Van
> Laar's original paper was toned down in the joint paper:
> https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058 "*The development of powder
> profile refinement at the Reactor Centre Netherlands at Petten*"
> Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk
>
> *Why don't you write to van Laar and ask for a copy of his original
> version (abstract below)*
>
>
>
> *Facts about the Profile refinement method in Powder diffraction.Bob van
> Laar, Amsterdam*Justification of the present paper
>
>
>
>
> *The aim of this paper is to give detailed historical insight in the
> procedure that led to thedevelopment of the profile refinement of neutron
> powder data, since then known as the'Rietveld method'. The present paper
> has been written by the last person still alive, involvedin the development
> of this method (Loopstra died in november 1998). The purpose is tocorrect
> some incorrectness's that have been connected to the method in course of
> time.*
>
> Kind regards, Alan.
>
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 at 10:51, Le Bail Armel 
> wrote:
>
> Bonjour Alan,
>
> My problem with the Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk paper is that it would
> have been
>
> credible if signed by van Laar alone or better by Loopstra and van Laar
> and also if
>
> published before 1980 or 1990, not in 2018.
>
> That 2018 paper looks strongly as initiated by Henk Schenk and the main
> arguments
>
> inside are from old Rietveld-Schenk interferences, especially the story
> when Rietveld
>
> refused to plaid guilty after being accused by Schenk in a very strange
> manner.
>
> Now, the fact that Schenk was IUCr President may be sufficient for many
> people to
>
> believe in his version of the story. It was not sufficient for Hugo
> Rietveld and it is not
>
> sufficient for me.
>
> Best
>
> Armel
>
> PS - Why to insert a reference to the 1981 Pawley paper in a 1988 paper
> where his
>
> method was not used but another method much later named "Le Bail method"
> and
>
> based on the Rietveld (Loopstra ??? proove it please) decomposition
> formula ?
>
> *envoyé :* 16 août 2023 à 19:08
> *de :* Alan W Hewat 
> *à :* Le Bail Armel 
> *cc :* "rietveld_l@ill.fr" 
> *objet :* Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some
> more people
>
> Bonjour Armel.
>
> In answer to your question "Where did they find the text of the judgement
> ?" please see:
> "The development of powder profile refinement at the Reactor Centre
> Netherlands at Petten"
> Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk
> https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058
>
> Van Laar worked at Petten with Rietveld, and Schenk was the IUCr
> president. This paper is apparently the basis of Mittemeijer's book. His
> point is that scientific discoveries are often the result of

Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

[Le Bail Armel]

I would be curious if the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences has archivesconcerning this Gregori Aminoff 1995 Prize decision/investigation :http://www.cristal.org/rietv025/foto3.jpgWho was contacted as reference ? Was Loopstra contacted and if yes, any positive answer from him ?;-)envoyé : 18 août 2023 à 11:30de : Alan W Hewat à : Le Bail Armel cc : rietveld_l@ill.frobjet : Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more peopleBonjour Armel.No, it was van Laar who initiated it. He was annoyed that I had praised Rietveld too much in my own accounts. http://hewat.net/science/ill-hewat.html 'History of the ILL from a personal perspective'.https://journals.iucr.org/j/issues/2016/04/00/es0421/ 'Hugo Rietveld (1932–2016)'  Alan Hewat, William I. F. David and Lambert van Eijck He sent me a draft paper that he proposed to publish, but I suggested a less critical version. He agreed, and later involved Henk Schenk in producing a softer version. So it's the opposite to what you assume - Van Laar's original paper was toned down in the joint paper:https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058 "The development of powder profile refinement at the Reactor Centre Netherlands at Petten" Bob van Laar and Henk SchenkWhy don't you write to van Laar and ask for a copy of his original version (abstract below)Facts about the Profile refinement method in Powder diffraction.Bob van Laar, AmsterdamJustification of the present paperThe aim of this paper is to give detailed historical insight in the procedure that led to thedevelopment of the profile refinement of neutron powder data, since then known as the'Rietveld method'. The present paper has been written by the last person still alive, involvedin the development of this method (Loopstra died in november 1998). The purpose is tocorrect some incorrectness's that have been connected to the method in course of time.Kind regards, Alan.On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 at 10:51, Le Bail Armel  wrote:Bonjour Alan,My problem with the Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk paper is that it would have beencredible if signed by van Laar alone or better by Loopstra and van Laar and also ifpublished before 1980 or 1990, not in 2018.That 2018 paper looks strongly as initiated by Henk Schenk and the main argumentsinside are from old Rietveld-Schenk interferences, especially the story when Rietveld refused to plaid guilty after being accused by Schenk in a very strange manner.Now, the fact that Schenk was IUCr President may be sufficient for many people tobelieve in his version of the story. It was not sufficient for Hugo Rietveld and it is notsufficient for me.BestArmelPS - Why to insert a reference to the 1981 Pawley paper in a 1988 paper where hismethod was not used but another method much later named "Le Bail method" andbased on the Rietveld (Loopstra ??? proove it please) decomposition formula ?envoyé : 16 août 2023 à 19:08de : Alan W Hewat à : Le Bail Armel cc : "rietveld_l@ill.fr" objet : Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more peopleBonjour Armel. In answer to your question "Where did they find the text of the judgement ?" please see:"The development of powder profile refinement at the Reactor Centre Netherlands at Petten" Bob van Laar and Henk Schenkhttps://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058Van Laar worked at Petten with Rietveld, and Schenk was the IUCr president. This paper is apparently the basis of Mittemeijer's book. His point is that scientific discoveries are often the result of the work of many people, yet we tend to simplify the process and attribute them to individual heros. Mike Glazer is simply reviewing his book.Salutations, Alan Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOpticsGrenoble, FRANCE (from phone)alan.he...@neutronoptics.com+33.476984168 VAT:FR79499450856http://NeutronOptics.com/hewat___   On Wed, 16 Aug 2023, 18:45 Le Bail Armel,  wrote:In a book :How Science Runs – Impressions from a Scientific Career. By Eric J. MittemeijerReviewed by Mike Glazer"In another section, the author has some criticism about the famous Rietveld method in powder diffraction. He points out that the original idea for this method was put forward by Bert O. Loopstra, who later discussed the idea of whole-pattern fitting with Bob van Laar. In order to create a computer program to carry out the method, they hired the computer-savvy Hugo M. Rietveld. The first paper by Loopstra and Rietveld was published in Acta Crystallographica in 1969, having been submitted in 1968. A later paper published in 1969 by Rietveld alone in Journal of Applied Crystallography is the one that is always quoted and led to the name ‘Rietveld method’ or ‘Rietveld refinement’. Mittemeijer points out that this did grave injustice to the originator of the method, Bert Loopstra. Rietveld later left science to become a librarian: 

Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

[Lambert van Eijck]

dear all,

it is likely that Van Laar was triggered by a visit from me and Bram Schierbeek 
(Dutch Crystallographic Society) around 2016. As Bill David pointed out in 
2015, the year 2016 was approximately 100 years after the 'invention of powder 
diffraction' and approximately 50 years after 'the invention of Rietveld 
refinement'. Unaware of the history of the development of the method at Petten 
(NL), Bram and me visited both Hugo Rietveld and Bob van Laar in 2015/2016, 
with the intention to organize a celebration symposium "Debye & Rietveld: 
100&50 years" in Amsterdam. We soon learned that the different opinions on the 
roles in realizing the method were not reconcilable.  In my personal opinion, 
this celebration event was not the stage to start criticizing the role of Hugo 
Rietveld in the development of the method. The publication by Van Laar and 
Schenk might therefore also have been triggered by our (naive) visit and/or by 
the celebration that took place in Amsterdam.

with best regards,

Lambert van Eijck

Delft


On 18-08-2023 11:30, Alan W Hewat wrote:
Bonjour Armel.

No, it was van Laar who initiated it. He was annoyed that I had praised 
Rietveld too much in my own accounts.
http://hewat.net/science/ill-hewat.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://hewat.net/science/ill-hewat.html__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWI_IcBXLQ$>
 'History of the ILL from a personal perspective'.
https://journals.iucr.org/j/issues/2016/04/00/es0421/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://journals.iucr.org/j/issues/2016/04/00/es0421/__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWKAXaNvpA$>
 'Hugo Rietveld (1932–2016)'  Alan Hewat, William I. F. David and Lambert van 
Eijck
 He sent me a draft paper that he proposed to publish, but I suggested a less 
critical version. He agreed, and later involved Henk Schenk in producing a 
softer version. So it's the opposite to what you assume - Van Laar's original 
paper was toned down in the joint paper:
https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJWqFCIgPcDOs0pFt-cAjxMfRIYEkCZnXiFWJSotPttA$>
 "The development of powder profile refinement at the Reactor Centre 
Netherlands at Petten"
Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk

Why don't you write to van Laar and ask for a copy of his original version 
(abstract below)

Facts about the Profile refinement method in Powder diffraction.
Bob van Laar, Amsterdam
Justification of the present paper
The aim of this paper is to give detailed historical insight in the procedure 
that led to the
development of the profile refinement of neutron powder data, since then known 
as the
'Rietveld method'. The present paper has been written by the last person still 
alive, involved
in the development of this method (Loopstra died in november 1998). The purpose 
is to
correct some incorrectness's that have been connected to the method in course 
of time.

Kind regards, Alan.

On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 at 10:51, Le Bail Armel 
mailto:le-bail.ar...@orange.fr>> wrote:

Bonjour Alan,

My problem with the Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk paper is that it would have 
been

credible if signed by van Laar alone or better by Loopstra and van Laar and 
also if

published before 1980 or 1990, not in 2018.

That 2018 paper looks strongly as initiated by Henk Schenk and the main 
arguments

inside are from old Rietveld-Schenk interferences, especially the story when 
Rietveld

refused to plaid guilty after being accused by Schenk in a very strange manner.

Now, the fact that Schenk was IUCr President may be sufficient for many people 
to

believe in his version of the story. It was not sufficient for Hugo Rietveld 
and it is not

sufficient for me.

Best

Armel

PS - Why to insert a reference to the 1981 Pawley paper in a 1988 paper where 
his

method was not used but another method much later named "Le Bail method" and

based on the Rietveld (Loopstra ??? proove it please) decomposition formula ?

envoyé : 16 août 2023 à 19:08
de : Alan W Hewat 
mailto:alan.he...@neutronoptics.com>>
à : Le Bail Armel mailto:le-bail.ar...@orange.fr>>
cc : "rietveld_l@ill.fr<mailto:rietveld_l@ill.fr>" 
mailto:rietveld_l@ill.fr>>
objet : Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

Bonjour Armel.

In answer to your question "Where did they find the text of the judgement ?" 
please see:
"The development of powder profile refinement at the Reactor Centre Netherlands 
at Petten"
Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk
https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058__;!!PAKc-5URQlI!7lzeLdY-y1qCjmyDiCGyPrpvkAjE1SBHQB3CYCwzzMMJEAmBxRZJW

Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

[Alan W Hewat]

Bonjour Armel.

No, it was van Laar who initiated it. He was annoyed that I had praised
Rietveld too much in my own accounts.
http://hewat.net/science/ill-hewat.html* 'History of the ILL from a
personal perspective'.*
https://journals.iucr.org/j/issues/2016/04/00/es0421/ '*Hugo Rietveld
(1932–2016)'*  Alan Hewat, William I. F. David and Lambert van Eijck
 He sent me a draft paper that he proposed to publish, but I suggested
a less critical version. He agreed, and later involved Henk Schenk in
producing a softer version. So it's the opposite to what you assume - Van
Laar's original paper was toned down in the joint paper:
https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058 "*The development of powder
profile refinement at the Reactor Centre Netherlands at Petten*"
Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk

*Why don't you write to van Laar and ask for a copy of his original version
(abstract below)*



*Facts about the Profile refinement method in Powder diffraction.Bob van
Laar, Amsterdam*Justification of the present paper




*The aim of this paper is to give detailed historical insight in the
procedure that led to thedevelopment of the profile refinement of neutron
powder data, since then known as the'Rietveld method'. The present paper
has been written by the last person still alive, involvedin the development
of this method (Loopstra died in november 1998). The purpose is tocorrect
some incorrectness's that have been connected to the method in course of
time.*

Kind regards, Alan.

On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 at 10:51, Le Bail Armel  wrote:

> Bonjour Alan,
>
> My problem with the Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk paper is that it would
> have been
>
> credible if signed by van Laar alone or better by Loopstra and van Laar
> and also if
>
> published before 1980 or 1990, not in 2018.
>
> That 2018 paper looks strongly as initiated by Henk Schenk and the main
> arguments
>
> inside are from old Rietveld-Schenk interferences, especially the story
> when Rietveld
>
> refused to plaid guilty after being accused by Schenk in a very strange
> manner.
>
> Now, the fact that Schenk was IUCr President may be sufficient for many
> people to
>
> believe in his version of the story. It was not sufficient for Hugo
> Rietveld and it is not
>
> sufficient for me.
>
> Best
>
> Armel
>
> PS - Why to insert a reference to the 1981 Pawley paper in a 1988 paper
> where his
>
> method was not used but another method much later named "Le Bail method"
> and
>
> based on the Rietveld (Loopstra ??? proove it please) decomposition
> formula ?
>
> *envoyé :* 16 août 2023 à 19:08
> *de :* Alan W Hewat 
> *à :* Le Bail Armel 
> *cc :* "rietveld_l@ill.fr" 
> *objet :* Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some
> more people
>
> Bonjour Armel.
>
> In answer to your question "Where did they find the text of the judgement
> ?" please see:
> "The development of powder profile refinement at the Reactor Centre
> Netherlands at Petten"
> Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk
> https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058
>
> Van Laar worked at Petten with Rietveld, and Schenk was the IUCr
> president. This paper is apparently the basis of Mittemeijer's book. His
> point is that scientific discoveries are often the result of the work of
> many people, yet we tend to simplify the process and attribute them to
> individual heros. Mike Glazer is simply reviewing his book.
>
> Salutations, Alan
> 
> Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics
> Grenoble, FRANCE (from phone)
> alan.he...@neutronoptics.com
> +33.476984168 VAT:FR79499450856
> http://NeutronOptics.com/hewat
> ___
>
>
> On Wed, 16 Aug 2023, 18:45 Le Bail Armel,  wrote:
>
> In a book :
> How Science Runs – Impressions from a Scientific Career. By Eric J.
> Mittemeijer
>
>
> Reviewed by Mike Glazer
>
>
> "In another section, the author has some criticism about the famous
> Rietveld method in powder diffraction. He points out that the original idea
> for this method was put forward by Bert O. Loopstra, who later discussed
> the idea of whole-pattern fitting with Bob van Laar. In order to create a
> computer program to carry out the method, they hired the computer-savvy
> Hugo M. Rietveld. The first paper by Loopstra and Rietveld was published in 
> *Acta
> Crystallographica* in 1969, having been submitted in 1968. A later paper
> published in 1969 by Rietveld alone in *Journal of Applied
> Crystallography* is the one that is always quoted and led to the name
> ‘Rietveld method’ or ‘Rietveld refinement’. Mittemeijer points out that
> this did grave injustice to the originator of the method, Bert Loopstra.
> Rietveld later left s

Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

[Le Bail Armel]

Bonjour Alan,My problem with the Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk paper is that it would have beencredible if signed by van Laar alone or better by Loopstra and van Laar and also ifpublished before 1980 or 1990, not in 2018.That 2018 paper looks strongly as initiated by Henk Schenk and the main argumentsinside are from old Rietveld-Schenk interferences, especially the story when Rietveld refused to plaid guilty after being accused by Schenk in a very strange manner.Now, the fact that Schenk was IUCr President may be sufficient for many people tobelieve in his version of the story. It was not sufficient for Hugo Rietveld and it is notsufficient for me.BestArmelPS - Why to insert a reference to the 1981 Pawley paper in a 1988 paper where hismethod was not used but another method much later named "Le Bail method" andbased on the Rietveld (Loopstra ??? proove it please) decomposition formula ?envoyé : 16 août 2023 à 19:08de : Alan W Hewat à : Le Bail Armel cc : "rietveld_l@ill.fr" objet : Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more peopleBonjour Armel. In answer to your question "Where did they find the text of the judgement ?" please see:"The development of powder profile refinement at the Reactor Centre Netherlands at Petten" Bob van Laar and Henk Schenkhttps://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058Van Laar worked at Petten with Rietveld, and Schenk was the IUCr president. This paper is apparently the basis of Mittemeijer's book. His point is that scientific discoveries are often the result of the work of many people, yet we tend to simplify the process and attribute them to individual heros. Mike Glazer is simply reviewing his book.Salutations, Alan Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOpticsGrenoble, FRANCE (from phone)alan.he...@neutronoptics.com+33.476984168 VAT:FR79499450856http://NeutronOptics.com/hewat___   On Wed, 16 Aug 2023, 18:45 Le Bail Armel,  wrote:In a book :How Science Runs – Impressions from a Scientific Career. By Eric J. MittemeijerReviewed by Mike Glazer"In another section, the author has some criticism about the famous Rietveld method in powder diffraction. He points out that the original idea for this method was put forward by Bert O. Loopstra, who later discussed the idea of whole-pattern fitting with Bob van Laar. In order to create a computer program to carry out the method, they hired the computer-savvy Hugo M. Rietveld. The first paper by Loopstra and Rietveld was published in Acta Crystallographica in 1969, having been submitted in 1968. A later paper published in 1969 by Rietveld alone in Journal of Applied Crystallography is the one that is always quoted and led to the name ‘Rietveld method’ or ‘Rietveld refinement’. Mittemeijer points out that this did grave injustice to the originator of the method, Bert Loopstra. Rietveld later left science to become a librarian: Mittemeijer says the notion that he left science because he was disappointed that the method had not found wide acceptance at the time is just a ‘fairy tale’. Thus, according to the author, the profile refinement method should more justly be called the ‘Loopstra method’, concluding that this story has a sad ending."https://www.iucr.org/news/newsletter/etc/articles?issue=156393_138339_result_page=39Where did they find the text of the judgement ? Any verdict somewhere ? Condamned by "impressions" !Any text from Loopstra who had a lot of time to tell something but never do it ?Flagged at PubPeer :https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/79219E32306099C040C633FFABE6EChttps://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/05241C3D2890D43ED23BA1905CD32Chttps://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/9D12C10951333B68B27FB891266A88Best,Armel Le Bail++ Please do NOT attach files to the whole list  Send commands to  eg: HELP as the subject with no body text The Rietveld_L list archive is on http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/ ++ ++Please do NOT attach files to the whole list Send commands to  eg: HELP as the subject with no body textThe Rietveld_L list archive is on http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/++
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++

Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

[Toby, Brian H.]

My personal feelings are that regardless of the origin of the idea, Hugo did 
the work that made crystallographic full pattern fitting possible. That 
implementation was not just a “programming task” as the minimal capabilities of 
computers of the day required significant innovation for memory and 
computational efficiency. The reasons why “Rietveld Analysis” is my preferred 
name for this technique are spelled out in chapter 4.7 of Volume H of the 
International Tables and I will not repeat them here, but I also like to draw 
additional attention to his minimally-credited method for intensity extraction, 
which was later cleverly extended into the LeBail technique. His solo 1967 
paper outlined the groundwork needed to fit all peaks in a pattern.

I was not active in the days when this work was done, and only spoke with Hugo 
twice, though we also exchanged a few e-mails, but I did have the chance to 
speak with many people who were active in CW neutron diffraction in those days. 
All were very supportive of the name "Rietveld Analysis”; none ever commented 
about to giving too much credit to Hugo. Those people included Ted Prince, who 
himself proved the statistical superiority of Rietveld Analysis over other 
approaches.

One minor update on what is below. Hugo’s original code, as published solo in 
1969, was written in Algol, but to make the technique more accessible, he 
rewrote his program in Fortran and he circulated that widely (unpublished). 
After Alan, his Fortran code went through many hands (including mine) with new 
features added from each; this is also discussed in ITH 4.7. However, GSAS was 
an all-new program in its day and did not use any of Hugo’s code.

Brian

On Aug 17, 2023, at 2:28 PM, Alan W Hewat  wrote:

Concerning the code, many, including the first versions of GSAS (and FullProf?) 
were based on the original Rietveld code that I 
modified
 at Harwell in 1972 and distributed at ILL

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RE: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

[Mike Glazer]

My review of Mittemeijer’s book  seems to have excited interest in the history 
of the “Rietveld” method. I, myself,  recall using Alan’s modified program 
(incorporating anisotropic displacement parameters, a welcome addition) in the 
early days and I saw that many Rietveld programs also contained this original 
code. Alan should have received much more recognition for this.

How about getting together and writing an article on the history of the program 
for the IUCr Newsletter? You could discuss the controversy there too for a 
larger audience.  The Newsletter is read by more than 13500 people, and I 
encourage including controversy.
Regards
Mike


Professor A.M. Glazer
Department of Physics
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**
Emeritus Professor of Physics and Emeritus  Fellow of Jesus College Oxford
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Crystallographer
Editor of the Newsletter of the IUCr https://www.iucr.org/news/newsletter
**
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Video of my Bragg Lecture at the Royal Institution is at
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with questions at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsPBB6azzX4



From: rietveld_l-requ...@ill.fr  On Behalf Of Alan W 
Hewat
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 5:40 PM
To: Le Bail Armel 
Cc: rietveld_l@ill.fr
Subject: Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

Armel, it's not about you :-) But in your 1988 paper you did not reference 
Pawley (1980) and even Rietveld only appeared as #14
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228084768_Ab_Initio_Structure_Determination_of_LiSbWO6_by_X_ray_Powder_Diffraction#fullTextFileContent

But let's not change the subject. You have published comments, linked to in 
your opening post, accusing respected scientists of "Calumny... towards a dead 
man who cannot defend himself". Simply because people who have direct 
experience of the history (which is often about dead men) do not agree with you.

And yes, Columbus did not discover America either, but he contributed. Be 
content with contributing, and let it go.

Regards Alan

Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics
Grenoble, FRANCE (from phone)
alan.he...@neutronoptics.com<mailto:alan.he...@neutronoptics.com>
+33.476984168 VAT:FR79499450856
http://NeutronOptics.com/hewat
___


On Thu, 17 Aug 2023, 17:49 Le Bail Armel, 
mailto:le-bail.ar...@orange.fr>> wrote:
>And there are other examples. See this brief review of "Whole Pattern Fitting 
>- The Pawley Method" (1980) yet few people now attribute this kind of profile 
>refinement to Pawley. http://pd.chem.ucl.ac.uk/pdnn/solve1/pawley.htm

Few people ? At least me :

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/iucr/itc/Ha/ch3o5v0001/sec3o5o2o2o1/?

And 2168 papers cite the 1980 Pawley paper according to Google Scholar as of 
today.

Be more clear. What are exactly those other examples ?

ALB
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++

Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

[Alan W Hewat]

Dear Luca.

Since I administer the Rietveld mailing list, I could have changed the name
years ago when Van Laar and Schenk published their history, with which I
largely sympathise. I didn't, because everyone now calls it "Rietveld
Refinement", a name invented by Terry Sabine, who worked with Rietveld when
he was Australian. Rietveld himself simply called it "Profile Refinement".

For similar reasons, the country Colombo is now known as Amerigo, while
Columbo is a famous TV detective.

Concerning the code, many, including the first versions of GSAS (and
FullProf?) were based on the original Rietveld code that I modified

at
Harwell in 1972 and distributed at ILL. Armel, when he writes of his
inspiration
during long nights at ILL collecting data
 (on my instrument D1A), probably
had a version directly from Rietveld, though neither the code, nor D1A, nor
anything between Rietveld (1967,1969) and Le Bail (1987) are referenced.
Van Laar and Schenk have a brief history of how the code developed in those
"missing" 20 years https://journals.iucr.org/a/issues/2018/02/00/ib5058/

Regards Alan

Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics
Grenoble, FRANCE (from phone)
alan.he...@neutronoptics.com
+33.476984168 VAT:FR79499450856
http://NeutronOptics.com/hewat
___


On Thu, 17 Aug 2023, 19:21 Luca Lutterotti, 
wrote:

> Given the involvement of Alan in the early days I would be confident to
> trust his view.
>
> So why we don't try to fix a bit the mistake. We could:
> - start renaming this list as Loopstra-Rietveld list ;-) ( I would keep
> the name Rietveld in hit, first who got the idea, second the programmer)
> - start using Loopstra-Rietveld in our papers/preentations/schools and use
> the proper references.
>
> For America, I will start calling the first who just went to the islands
> with his proper name: Cristoforo Colombo. Why do you want to change it for
> different languages?
> I would not like if they would call me Lukas Lutterottus !
>
> Finally, Alan, why we don't get a history of Loopstra-Rietveld programs?
> Speaking with different programmer I know most of them are originating
> indirectly from the Rietveld code and I think it is interesting to see how
> many are derived from others and have a root on the original code.
>
> Luca
>
> 
> [image: logo_unitrento_firma.png]
>
>
> *Luca Lutterotti*
> Dipartimento di Ingegneria Industriale
> Università di Trento
> via Sommarive, 9 - 38123 Trento (Italy)
> tel. +39 0461 2824-14 (Office), -34 (X-Ray lab)
>
> [image: ico_fb_32x32.png][image: ico_twitter_32x32.png][image:
> ico_insta_32x32.png][image: ico_linkedin_32x32.png][image:
> ico_youtube_32x32.png]
>
> Maud: http://maud.radiographema.com 
>
>
>
> On 17 Aug 2023, at 10:40, Alan W Hewat 
> wrote:
>
> Armel, it's not about you :-) But in your 1988 paper you did not reference
> Pawley (1980) and even Rietveld only appeared as #14
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228084768_Ab_Initio_Structure_Determination_of_LiSbWO6_by_X_ray_Powder_Diffraction#fullTextFileContent
>
> But let's not change the subject. You have published comments, linked to
> in your opening post, accusing respected scientists of "*Calumny...
> towards a dead man who cannot defend himself*". Simply because people who
> have direct experience of the history (which is often about dead men) do
> not agree with you.
>
> And yes, Columbus did not discover America either, but he contributed. Be
> content with contributing, and let it go.
>
> Regards Alan
> 
> Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics
> Grenoble, FRANCE (from phone)
> alan.he...@neutronoptics.com
> +33.476984168 VAT:FR79499450856
> http://NeutronOptics.com/hewat 
> ___
>
>
> On Thu, 17 Aug 2023, 17:49 Le Bail Armel,  wrote:
>
>> >And there are other examples. See this brief review of "Whole Pattern
>> Fitting - The Pawley Method" (1980) yet few people now attribute this kind
>> of profile refinement to Pawley.
>> http://pd.chem.ucl.ac.uk/pdnn/solve1/pawley.htm
>>
>> Few people ? At least me :
>>
>> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/iucr/itc/Ha/ch3o5v0001/sec3o5o2o2o1/?
>>
>> And 2168 papers cite the 1980 Pawley paper according to Google Scholar as
>> of today.
>>
>> Be more clear. What are exactly those other examples ?
>>
>> ALB
>>
> ++
> Please do NOT attach files to the whole list  >
> Send commands to  eg: HELP as the subject with no body
> text
> The Rietveld_L list archive is on
> http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/
> ++
>
>
>
++
Please do NOT attach files to the whole list 

Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

[Luca Lutterotti]

Given the involvement of Alan in the early days I would be confident to trust 
his view.

So why we don't try to fix a bit the mistake. We could:
- start renaming this list as Loopstra-Rietveld list ;-) ( I would keep the 
name Rietveld in hit, first who got the idea, second the programmer)
- start using Loopstra-Rietveld in our papers/preentations/schools and use the 
proper references.

For America, I will start calling the first who just went to the islands with 
his proper name: Cristoforo Colombo. Why do you want to change it for different 
languages? 
I would not like if they would call me Lukas Lutterottus !

Finally, Alan, why we don't get a history of Loopstra-Rietveld programs? 
Speaking with different programmer I know most of them are originating 
indirectly from the Rietveld code and I think it is interesting to see how many 
are derived from others and have a root on the original code.

Luca

 

Luca Lutterotti
Dipartimento di Ingegneria Industriale
Università di Trento
via Sommarive, 9 - 38123 Trento (Italy)
tel. +39 0461 2824-14 (Office), -34 (X-Ray lab)




Maud: http://maud.radiographema.com 


> On 17 Aug 2023, at 10:40, Alan W Hewat  wrote:
> 
> Armel, it's not about you :-) But in your 1988 paper you did not reference 
> Pawley (1980) and even Rietveld only appeared as #14
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228084768_Ab_Initio_Structure_Determination_of_LiSbWO6_by_X_ray_Powder_Diffraction#fullTextFileContent
> 
> But let's not change the subject. You have published comments, linked to in 
> your opening post, accusing respected scientists of "Calumny... towards a 
> dead man who cannot defend himself". Simply because people who have direct 
> experience of the history (which is often about dead men) do not agree with 
> you. 
> 
> And yes, Columbus did not discover America either, but he contributed. Be 
> content with contributing, and let it go.
> 
> Regards Alan 
> 
> Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics
> Grenoble, FRANCE (from phone)
> alan.he...@neutronoptics.com
> +33.476984168 VAT:FR79499450856
> http://NeutronOptics.com/hewat 
> ___
>
> 
> On Thu, 17 Aug 2023, 17:49 Le Bail Armel,  > wrote:
>>> >And there are other examples. See this brief review of "Whole Pattern 
>>> >Fitting - The Pawley Method" (1980) yet few people now attribute this kind 
>>> >of profile refinement to Pawley. 
>>> >http://pd.chem.ucl.ac.uk/pdnn/solve1/pawley.htm
>>> 
>>> Few people ? At least me :
>> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/iucr/itc/Ha/ch3o5v0001/sec3o5o2o2o1/?
>> 
>> And 2168 papers cite the 1980 Pawley paper according to Google Scholar as of 
>> today.
>> 
>> Be more clear. What are exactly those other examples ?
>> 
>> ALB
>> 
> ++
> Please do NOT attach files to the whole list 
> Send commands to  eg: HELP as the subject with no body text
> The Rietveld_L list archive is on 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/
> ++
> 

++
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++

Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

[Alan W Hewat]

Armel, it's not about you :-) But in your 1988 paper you did not reference
Pawley (1980) and even Rietveld only appeared as #14
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228084768_Ab_Initio_Structure_Determination_of_LiSbWO6_by_X_ray_Powder_Diffraction#fullTextFileContent

But let's not change the subject. You have published comments, linked to in
your opening post, accusing respected scientists of "*Calumny... towards a
dead man who cannot defend himself*". Simply because people who have direct
experience of the history (which is often about dead men) do not agree with
you.

And yes, Columbus did not discover America either, but he contributed. Be
content with contributing, and let it go.

Regards Alan

Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics
Grenoble, FRANCE (from phone)
alan.he...@neutronoptics.com
+33.476984168 VAT:FR79499450856
http://NeutronOptics.com/hewat
___


On Thu, 17 Aug 2023, 17:49 Le Bail Armel,  wrote:

> >And there are other examples. See this brief review of "Whole Pattern
> Fitting - The Pawley Method" (1980) yet few people now attribute this kind
> of profile refinement to Pawley.
> http://pd.chem.ucl.ac.uk/pdnn/solve1/pawley.htm
>
> Few people ? At least me :
>
> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/iucr/itc/Ha/ch3o5v0001/sec3o5o2o2o1/?
>
> And 2168 papers cite the 1980 Pawley paper according to Google Scholar as
> of today.
>
> Be more clear. What are exactly those other examples ?
>
> ALB
>
++
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++

Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

[Robert Gould]

It's a widespread phenomenon.  What about America being named for Vespucii
rather than Columbus?

On Thu, 17 Aug 2023, 11:49 Le Bail Armel,  wrote:

> >And there are other examples. See this brief review of "Whole Pattern
> Fitting - The Pawley Method" (1980) yet few people now attribute this kind
> of profile refinement to Pawley.
> http://pd.chem.ucl.ac.uk/pdnn/solve1/pawley.htm
>
> Few people ? At least me :
>
> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/iucr/itc/Ha/ch3o5v0001/sec3o5o2o2o1/?
>
> And 2168 papers cite the 1980 Pawley paper according to Google Scholar as
> of today.
>
> Be more clear. What are exactly those other examples ?
>
> ALB
> ++
> Please do NOT attach files to the whole list  >
> Send commands to  eg: HELP as the subject with no body
> text
> The Rietveld_L list archive is on
> http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/
> ++
>
>
++
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++

Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

[Le Bail Armel]

>And there are other examples. See this brief review of "Whole Pattern Fitting - The Pawley Method" (1980) yet few people now attribute this kind of profile refinement to Pawley. http://pd.chem.ucl.ac.uk/pdnn/solve1/pawley.htmFew people ? At least me :https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/iucr/itc/Ha/ch3o5v0001/sec3o5o2o2o1/?And 2168 papers cite the 1980 Pawley paper according to Google Scholar as of today.Be more clear. What are exactly those other examples ?ALB
++
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++

Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

[Alan W Hewat]

And there are other examples. See this brief review of "Whole Pattern
Fitting - The Pawley Method" (1980) yet few people now attribute this kind
of profile refinement to Pawley.
http://pd.chem.ucl.ac.uk/pdnn/solve1/pawley.htm

On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 at 19:33,  wrote:

> Le Bail Armel schreef op 2023-08-16 18:45:
>
> In a book :
> How Science Runs – Impressions from a Scientific Career. By Eric J.
> Mittemeijer
>
>
> Reviewed by Mike Glazer
>
>
> "In another section, the author has some criticism about the famous
> Rietveld method in powder diffraction. He points out that the original idea
> for this method was put forward by Bert O. Loopstra, who later discussed
> the idea of whole-pattern fitting with Bob van Laar. In order to create a
> computer program to carry out the method, they hired the computer-savvy
> Hugo M. Rietveld. The first paper by Loopstra and Rietveld was published in 
> *Acta
> Crystallographica* in 1969, having been submitted in 1968. A later paper
> published in 1969 by Rietveld alone in *Journal of Applied
> Crystallography* is the one that is always quoted and led to the name
> ‘Rietveld method’ or ‘Rietveld refinement’. Mittemeijer points out that
> this did grave injustice to the originator of the method, Bert Loopstra.
> Rietveld later left science to become a librarian: Mittemeijer says the
> notion that he left science because he was disappointed that the method had
> not found wide acceptance at the time is just a ‘fairy tale’. Thus,
> according to the author, the profile refinement method should more justly
> be called the ‘Loopstra method’, concluding that this story has a sad
> ending."
>
>
>
> https://www.iucr.org/news/newsletter/etc/articles?issue=156393_138339_result_page=39
>
>
> Where did they find the text of the judgement ? Any verdict somewhere ?
> Condamned by "impressions" !
>
> Any text from Loopstra who had a lot of time to tell something but never
> do it ?
>
>
> Flagged at PubPeer :
>
> https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/79219E32306099C040C633FFABE6EC
>
> https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/05241C3D2890D43ED23BA1905CD32C
>
> https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/9D12C10951333B68B27FB891266A88
>
>
> Best,
>
> Armel Le Bail
>
> ++
> Please do NOT attach files to the whole list  >
> Send commands to  eg: HELP as the subject with no body
> text
> The Rietveld_L list archive is on
> http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/
> ++
>
> Mittemeijer is not the only author who disputes the "fame" of Hugo
> Rietveld. There is a publication of Henk Schenk about the exact same topic.
> In those days it was a scandal at ECN,
>
>
> Bert Kinneging
> ++
> Please do NOT attach files to the whole list  >
> Send commands to  eg: HELP as the subject with no body
> text
> The Rietveld_L list archive is on
> http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/
> ++
>
>

-- 
__
Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics, Grenoble, FRANCE
 +33.476.98.41.68
http://www.NeutronOptics.com/hewat

__
++
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++

Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

[bertkinneging]

Le Bail Armel schreef op 2023-08-16 18:45:


In a book :

HOW SCIENCE RUNS – IMPRESSIONS FROM A SCIENTIFIC CAREER. BY ERIC J. 
MITTEMEIJER


Reviewed by Mike Glazer

"In another section, the author has some criticism about the famous 
Rietveld method in powder diffraction. He points out that the original 
idea for this method was put forward by Bert O. Loopstra, who later 
discussed the idea of whole-pattern fitting with Bob van Laar. In order 
to create a computer program to carry out the method, they hired the 
computer-savvy Hugo M. Rietveld. The first paper by Loopstra and 
Rietveld was published in _Acta Crystallographica_ in 1969, having been 
submitted in 1968. A later paper published in 1969 by Rietveld alone in 
_Journal of Applied Crystallography_ is the one that is always quoted 
and led to the name 'Rietveld method' or 'Rietveld refinement'. 
Mittemeijer points out that this did grave injustice to the originator 
of the method, Bert Loopstra. Rietveld later left science to become a 
librarian: Mittemeijer says the notion that he left science because he 
was disappointed that the method had not found wide acceptance at the 
time is just a 'fairy tale'. Thus, according to the author, the profile 
refinement method should more justly be called the 'Loopstra method', 
concluding that this story has a sad ending."


https://www.iucr.org/news/newsletter/etc/articles?issue=156393_138339_result_page=39

Where did they find the text of the judgement ? Any verdict somewhere ? 
Condamned by "impressions" !


Any text from Loopstra who had a lot of time to tell something but 
never do it ?


Flagged at PubPeer :

https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/79219E32306099C040C633FFABE6EC

https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/05241C3D2890D43ED23BA1905CD32C

https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/9D12C10951333B68B27FB891266A88

Best,

Armel Le Bail
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++


Mittemeijer is not the only author who disputes the "fame" of Hugo 
Rietveld. There is a publication of Henk Schenk about the exact same 
topic. In those days it was a scandal at ECN,


Bert Kinneging++
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Re: Rietveld condamnation considered as established by some more people

[Alan W Hewat]

Bonjour Armel.

In answer to your question "Where did they find the text of the judgement
?" please see:
"The development of powder profile refinement at the Reactor Centre
Netherlands at Petten"
Bob van Laar and Henk Schenk
https://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?ib5058

Van Laar worked at Petten with Rietveld, and Schenk was the IUCr president.
This paper is apparently the basis of Mittemeijer's book. His point is that
scientific discoveries are often the result of the work of many people, yet
we tend to simplify the process and attribute them to individual heros.
Mike Glazer is simply reviewing his book.

Salutations, Alan

Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics
Grenoble, FRANCE (from phone)
alan.he...@neutronoptics.com
+33.476984168 VAT:FR79499450856
http://NeutronOptics.com/hewat
___


On Wed, 16 Aug 2023, 18:45 Le Bail Armel,  wrote:

> In a book :
> How Science Runs – Impressions from a Scientific Career. By Eric J.
> Mittemeijer
>
>
> Reviewed by Mike Glazer
>
>
> "In another section, the author has some criticism about the famous
> Rietveld method in powder diffraction. He points out that the original idea
> for this method was put forward by Bert O. Loopstra, who later discussed
> the idea of whole-pattern fitting with Bob van Laar. In order to create a
> computer program to carry out the method, they hired the computer-savvy
> Hugo M. Rietveld. The first paper by Loopstra and Rietveld was published in 
> *Acta
> Crystallographica* in 1969, having been submitted in 1968. A later paper
> published in 1969 by Rietveld alone in *Journal of Applied
> Crystallography* is the one that is always quoted and led to the name
> ‘Rietveld method’ or ‘Rietveld refinement’. Mittemeijer points out that
> this did grave injustice to the originator of the method, Bert Loopstra.
> Rietveld later left science to become a librarian: Mittemeijer says the
> notion that he left science because he was disappointed that the method had
> not found wide acceptance at the time is just a ‘fairy tale’. Thus,
> according to the author, the profile refinement method should more justly
> be called the ‘Loopstra method’, concluding that this story has a sad
> ending."
>
>
>
> https://www.iucr.org/news/newsletter/etc/articles?issue=156393_138339_result_page=39
>
>
> Where did they find the text of the judgement ? Any verdict somewhere ?
> Condamned by "impressions" !
>
> Any text from Loopstra who had a lot of time to tell something but never
> do it ?
>
>
> Flagged at PubPeer :
>
> https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/79219E32306099C040C633FFABE6EC
>
> https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/05241C3D2890D43ED23BA1905CD32C
>
> https://blog.pubpeer.com/publications/9D12C10951333B68B27FB891266A88
>
>
> Best,
>
> Armel Le Bail
> ++
> Please do NOT attach files to the whole list  >
> Send commands to  eg: HELP as the subject with no body
> text
> The Rietveld_L list archive is on
> http://www.mail-archive.com/rietveld_l@ill.fr/
> ++
>
>
++
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