Re: Rivet namespace and Rivet package
Am 27.01.2011 21:44, schrieb Rob Sciuk: On Fri, 28 Jan 2011, arnulf wrote: Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 11:33:06 +0100 From: arnulf arn...@wiedemann-pri.de To: rivet-dev@tcl.apache.org Subject: Re: Rivet namespace and Rivet package just a comment to Massimo's question, sorry there is no dowload yet, as I am still in a pre alpha state with ATWF. ATM I am thinking about having Reporting Tools With TCL as the first real application to run with ATWF and doing so I found I should have an interface language like XUL or XAML or some other XML kind of thing for describing the widgets and actions etc. for a GUI using CSS files for the look and feel and a small css interpreter, to do the configure for a Tcl/TK GUI and perhaps to have a similar functionality based on the same interface using javascript or for supporting browsers on the other hand. I have also looked at xml2gui and am still in the brain storming phase. So right now my stack of work to be done is still increasing instead of decreasing, but I hope to soon stop at least the increasing. Arnulf If I can suay you to *NOT* use xml, and instead, use a JSON like language. It is *SO* easy to parse ... uses very few terminals, and like TCL, is whitespace delimited. I've attached a JSON like scripting example from which I generate SQL DDL for a database independant schema tool ... such a schema can also be used to generate forms with a rich data definition language ... and these can be used to generate tcl/PHP/or whatever ... no XSLT, no XML-schema, no complicated parsing ... but very expressive nonetheless Rob Sciuk Thanks for the input, I will think about that. Looks like JSON like stuff can be easily converted to dicts in TCL (much easier than XML with a DOM tree) :-) Arnulf - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org
Re: Rivet namespace and Rivet package
There is code at SF, available via svn co https://atwf.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/atwf atwf But there is some problem with the repo… svn: URL 'https://atwf.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/atwf/application/modules/Module1' of existing directory 'atwf/application/modules/module1' does not match expected URL 'https://atwf.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/atwf/application/modules/module1' http://sourceforge.net/projects/atwf/ last commit 46 days ago... On Jan 27, 2011, at 8:12 AM, Massimo Manghi wrote: Arnulf's work is the only serious attempt I know to endow Tcl programming with a consistent framework for web development. Still, the SF site has no download to offer. Do you know if Arnulf moved it on to some other resource? -- Massimo On 01/27/2011 02:31 PM, Harald Oehlmann wrote: Maybe ATWF, the port of the zend framework to Rivet by Arnulf Wiedemann may be interesting? See: http://wiki.tcl.tk/25821 or the presentation at TC2010. Harald - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org
Re: Rivet namespace and Rivet package
Hi, The Tcl paper will be online realSoonNow (tm). We've got the hotel for Tcl2011 chosen and I put last year's proceedings online as part of the first look the new conference is happening publicity. I'll announce to this list when the site (and papers) are live. There were a couple of web things at last year's conference. If anyone wants to consider this as a solicitation for a paper proposal, well, they can do that... :) Clif On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 03:12:39PM +0100, Massimo Manghi wrote: Arnulf's work is the only serious attempt I know to endow Tcl programming with a consistent framework for web development. Still, the SF site has no download to offer. Do you know if Arnulf moved it on to some other resource? -- Massimo On 01/27/2011 02:31 PM, Harald Oehlmann wrote: Maybe ATWF, the port of the zend framework to Rivet by Arnulf Wiedemann may be interesting? See: http://wiki.tcl.tk/25821 or the presentation at TC2010. -- ... Clif Flynt ... http://www.cwflynt.com ... c...@cflynt.com ... .. Tcl/Tk: A Developer's Guide (2nd edition) - Morgan Kauffman .. 18'th Annual Tcl/Tk Conference: 2011, Manassas, VA USA . http://www.tcl.tk/community/tcl2010/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org
Re: Rivet namespace and Rivet package
With this latest project of mine I actually started work on a framework built solely around Rivet. I'm not shooting for something that works across web servers or something that is portable, I'm writing something that takes advantage of all the things Rivet has to offer. I call it Skyscraper. It kinda sucks right now because I've only really just started it, but it's coming along. It's based on many of the ideas used in Rails but in a Tcl way. When I looked at Ruby and Rails once before, there was a lot to like about it. Right now it's sort of hardwired for MySQL and jQuery as the external components, but that's purely because it's what I'm using. The ties to jQuery at this point are not much more than just including the tags to include it, and MOST of the SQL code is generic with only a few MySQL-specific things. It uses TDBC as the database backend, so it can easily support any database Tcl does, and the rest is all straight Tcl or Rivet. It doesn't use TclOO though it probably could if someone had a strong feeling about it. I found when using Rails that the object stuff felt kinda' forced. Like you didn't really need it, but because you're in Ruby, that's just the way you do it. Do you really need a new object for each request? Isn't that what Rivet's ::request namespace is doing for you? I'm open to hearing what people have to say on this topic. I needed a good MVC framework for writing Rivet apps, so I made one. I'm up for taking suggestions as I write it if anyone has any. I hope to include it as part of Rivet one day. Unlike TclOO that was supposedly made to build other OO frameworks on top of, I'd like to see Rivet ship with one framework to rule them all and right out of the box. D On Jan 27, 2011, at 8:12 AM, Massimo Manghi wrote: Arnulf's work is the only serious attempt I know to endow Tcl programming with a consistent framework for web development. Still, the SF site has no download to offer. Do you know if Arnulf moved it on to some other resource? -- Massimo On 01/27/2011 02:31 PM, Harald Oehlmann wrote: Maybe ATWF, the port of the zend framework to Rivet by Arnulf Wiedemann may be interesting? See: http://wiki.tcl.tk/25821 or the presentation at TC2010. Harald - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org
Re: Rivet namespace and Rivet package
I like the name. We are down with jQuery. But it would need to support PostgreSQL to get any traction at FlightAware. You might have a look at yajl-tcl for generating valid JSON really quickly. The library includes returning PostgreSQL query results as JSON. It can parse, too, but the results are left-to-right so it's gotta be taken further to be useful. On 1/27/11 10:49 AM, Damon Courtney da...@tclhome.com wrote: With this latest project of mine I actually started work on a framework built solely around Rivet. I'm not shooting for something that works across web servers or something that is portable, I'm writing something that takes advantage of all the things Rivet has to offer. I call it Skyscraper. It kinda sucks right now because I've only really just started it, but it's coming along. It's based on many of the ideas used in Rails but in a Tcl way. When I looked at Ruby and Rails once before, there was a lot to like about it. Right now it's sort of hardwired for MySQL and jQuery as the external components, but that's purely because it's what I'm using. The ties to jQuery at this point are not much more than just including the tags to include it, and MOST of the SQL code is generic with only a few MySQL-specific things. It uses TDBC as the database backend, so it can easily support any database Tcl does, and the rest is all straight Tcl or Rivet. It doesn't use TclOO though it probably could if someone had a strong feeling about it. I found when using Rails that the object stuff felt kinda' forced. Like you didn't really need it, but because you're in Ruby, that's just the way you do it. Do you really need a new object for each request? Isn't that what Rivet's ::request namespace is doing for you? I'm open to hearing what people have to say on this topic. I needed a good MVC framework for writing Rivet apps, so I made one. I'm up for taking suggestions as I write it if anyone has any. I hope to include it as part of Rivet one day. Unlike TclOO that was supposedly made to build other OO frameworks on top of, I'd like to see Rivet ship with one framework to rule them all and right out of the box. D On Jan 27, 2011, at 8:12 AM, Massimo Manghi wrote: Arnulf's work is the only serious attempt I know to endow Tcl programming with a consistent framework for web development. Still, the SF site has no download to offer. Do you know if Arnulf moved it on to some other resource? -- Massimo On 01/27/2011 02:31 PM, Harald Oehlmann wrote: Maybe ATWF, the port of the zend framework to Rivet by Arnulf Wiedemann may be interesting? See: http://wiki.tcl.tk/25821 or the presentation at TC2010. Harald - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org
Re: Rivet namespace and Rivet package
MySQL was just my choice, and most all the code in Skyscraper itself is just plain old SQL. There may be a few things in there that are specific, but for the most part it'll work anywhere. But Flightaware isn't going to use something like this. You guys have in development of your stuff, and this is a whole new framework. You're not going to go through and rewrite all your pages in this. 0-] I haven't looked at generating JSON at all as I don't have a need for it, but it's certainly something that should be added out of the box. Being that I develop my stuff in one way while others develop in completely different ways, this is the kind of thing that needs to be brought up. What is the list of things that should be in a modern framework built on Rivet. Someone with some Ruby and Rails experience should pipe in here. Oooh, maybe we can get ol' Welton over there to wake up for a quick response! 0-] D On Jan 27, 2011, at 11:09 AM, Karl Lehenbauer wrote: I like the name. We are down with jQuery. But it would need to support PostgreSQL to get any traction at FlightAware. You might have a look at yajl-tcl for generating valid JSON really quickly. The library includes returning PostgreSQL query results as JSON. It can parse, too, but the results are left-to-right so it's gotta be taken further to be useful. On 1/27/11 10:49 AM, Damon Courtney da...@tclhome.com wrote: With this latest project of mine I actually started work on a framework built solely around Rivet. I'm not shooting for something that works across web servers or something that is portable, I'm writing something that takes advantage of all the things Rivet has to offer. I call it Skyscraper. It kinda sucks right now because I've only really just started it, but it's coming along. It's based on many of the ideas used in Rails but in a Tcl way. When I looked at Ruby and Rails once before, there was a lot to like about it. Right now it's sort of hardwired for MySQL and jQuery as the external components, but that's purely because it's what I'm using. The ties to jQuery at this point are not much more than just including the tags to include it, and MOST of the SQL code is generic with only a few MySQL-specific things. It uses TDBC as the database backend, so it can easily support any database Tcl does, and the rest is all straight Tcl or Rivet. It doesn't use TclOO though it probably could if someone had a strong feeling about it. I found when using Rails that the object stuff felt kinda' forced. Like you didn't really need it, but because you're in Ruby, that's just the way you do it. Do you really need a new object for each request? Isn't that what Rivet's ::request namespace is doing for you? I'm open to hearing what people have to say on this topic. I needed a good MVC framework for writing Rivet apps, so I made one. I'm up for taking suggestions as I write it if anyone has any. I hope to include it as part of Rivet one day. Unlike TclOO that was supposedly made to build other OO frameworks on top of, I'd like to see Rivet ship with one framework to rule them all and right out of the box. D On Jan 27, 2011, at 8:12 AM, Massimo Manghi wrote: Arnulf's work is the only serious attempt I know to endow Tcl programming with a consistent framework for web development. Still, the SF site has no download to offer. Do you know if Arnulf moved it on to some other resource? -- Massimo On 01/27/2011 02:31 PM, Harald Oehlmann wrote: Maybe ATWF, the port of the zend framework to Rivet by Arnulf Wiedemann may be interesting? See: http://wiki.tcl.tk/25821 or the presentation at TC2010. Harald - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org
Re: Rivet namespace and Rivet package
This is where I'm not exactly sure how tightly things are integrated between Javascript and most frameworks. I know that Rails supports jQuery and Prototype, I believe, but I don't know exactly where they have them integrated and for what purpose. The only integration I have so far is in a proc called ss_button that creates a button widget, and you can do things like: ss_button delete -text Delete This -confirm Are you sure you want to delete this? The -confirm option links into jQuery and pops up a confirmation dialog before proceeding with the button if it exists. Otherwise it just returns and does nothing. So far that's about the only actual integration I've managed to come up with. I'm using jQuery extensively on the site, but it's just pure jQuery and has little or nothing to do with the Tcl code on the backend. D On Jan 27, 2011, at 12:22 PM, Clif Flynt wrote: I've got some sort of javascript interfacing in my future. In a post-FaceBook era, folks don't like the http 2.0 look feel any more than they like Mosaic. I've looked at WubTk briefly - the idea is clever (rework Tk widgets to generate javascript (JQuery, I think) widgets), but it's tied more tightly to Wub than a quick survey was going to disentangle. I think a One-True-Supported javascript thing in Rivet (or as a Rivet add-on) would be great. I can offer to test and complain. I'm not sure just how much I'll be able to actually contribute. Clif -- ... Clif Flynt ... http://www.cwflynt.com ... c...@cflynt.com ... .. Tcl/Tk: A Developer's Guide (2nd edition) - Morgan Kauffman .. 18'th Annual Tcl/Tk Conference: 2011, Manassas, VA USA . http://www.tcl.tk/community/tcl2010/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org
Re: Rivet namespace and Rivet package
It's my turn to apologize for the delay: my pesky webmail silently moved Damon's message into the trash On Mon, 24 Jan 2011 14:15:07 -0600, Damon Courtney wrote I'm just looking at some of the code for the first time in a while so forgive me for not commenting sooner. Are you talking about just moving the rivet commands into a ::Rivet namespace? It sounds like from this and your previous Rivet command scope email that you're trying to unify everything. I think that's a great idea. It makes Rivet more of a package that can easily be loaded or not based on the user. yes, precisely. After I wrote a couple of sample pages where commands were prefixed with their namespace I also happily rediscovered the obvious: readability of the code had improved by highlighting the lines of code where Rivet was involved. A 'namespace import ::Rivet::* restores the usual way to access to the module, but I wont't use it, I think. Does anyone else have an opinion here? Are there any other Rivet requests on the horizon we should be looking at? It sounds like Karl is waking up a bit, at least as regards to ideas and thoughts, but maybe some code too. I'm working on a pretty big project in Rivet right now, so my activity level is sure to increase soon enough. Clif Flynt has thrown his hand in a few times now. Combine that with Massimo's tireless work, and we may actually be able to wake the sleeping giant. At least until we all go back to our regular lives. 0-] D Glad to know you're working on a rivet based project. Suggestions and experiences that might come from the applicative field are obviously of great interest to find new developments that may tickle the giant (pun intended). A few months ago the proposal of creating an infrastructure for better support of advanced web programming (Ajax etc) was put forward. I don't have the experience for designing such a tool (I mostly made some Ajax stuff with the purpose of teaching myself the technique), but I understand it's not just about a buzzword, the problem is about creating a real framework for webprogramming (Rails comes in mind in this context) -- Massimo -- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org
Re: Rivet namespace and Rivet package
I'm just looking at some of the code for the first time in a while so forgive me for not commenting sooner. Are you talking about just moving the rivet commands into a ::Rivet namespace? It sounds like from this and your previous Rivet command scope email that you're trying to unify everything. I think that's a great idea. It makes Rivet more of a package that can easily be loaded or not based on the user. Does anyone else have an opinion here? Are there any other Rivet requests on the horizon we should be looking at? It sounds like Karl is waking up a bit, at least as regards to ideas and thoughts, but maybe some code too. I'm working on a pretty big project in Rivet right now, so my activity level is sure to increase soon enough. Clif Flynt has thrown his hand in a few times now. Combine that with Massimo's tireless work, and we may actually be able to wake the sleeping giant. At least until we all go back to our regular lives. 0-] D On Jan 13, 2011, at 6:02 PM, Massimo Manghi wrote: Code in src/rivetWWW.c, src/rivetCrypt.c and src/rivetList.c has been so far independent from definitions in the mod_rivet.h. This was a sensible approach that made it reusable outside the context of the apache module. I favor the move of the commands coded in those files into the newly created Rivet namespace, thus breaking the mentioned independence. The package Rivet they provide could be also be moved into the module code to better qualify the whole Rivet namespace (after all Rivet should be a keyword reserved to the module). Existing scripts won't be affected, because the module initialization could 'package require Rivet' and user scripts will have a mean to test which scripting level they're running in by calling 'package require Rivet x.y' comments are welcome. -- Massimo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscr...@tcl.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-h...@tcl.apache.org
