Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
I won't waste your time by repeating what's already written here about dropping VS2010 support. Count my voice in for dropping the support for MSVC 2010. Even though I love old computers, I always envisioned ReactOS as a modern operating system for modern computers. There are other communities for those who like old stuff (MS-DOS 6.22, Windows 3.11, Watcom compilers, etc). If ReactOS can benefit from newest technologies made accessible by other - it should! Regards, Aleksey Bragin On 1/7/2021 9:39 AM, Colin Finck wrote: Hello everybody and a happy new year! Am 26.11.2020 um 09:27 schrieb Colin Finck: So let's have an open discussion and voting process right here on the mailing list for everyone to see, to decide this once and for all! Just reply to this mail, tell about your reasons - and more importantly tell whether you support or reject dropping MSVC 2010 support. Votes by CORE REACTOS MEMBERS are then counted on 1ST JANUARY 2021. 1st January has passed and it's time to count the votes cast on the mailing list. First of all, a big thank you to the people who have submitted their opinions! Your votes matter to get the best possible overview on this topic. It's a pity that many developers have not replied, when I'm sure that they have an opinion here. On the other hand, it's quite understandable considering that this is already the 3rd (and definitely last!) time we are debating this matter. So without further ado, here are the votes everyone can gather from the replies on ros-dev: Dropping MSVC 2010 support for building ReactOS === * Colin Finck * Dominik Hornung * Ged Murphy * Mark Jansen * Stanislav Motylkov * Victor Perevertkin Keeping MSVC 2010 support for building ReactOS == * Doug Lyons * Hermès Bélusca-Maïto * Joachim Henze * Oleg Dubinskij Third discussion, third time it's the same result. Thanks for providing a clear answer on that! Note that I haven't applied the "CORE REACTOS MEMBERS" filter here, but that would lead to roughly the same number of votes getting subtracted on both sides. I also leave it up to you to merge this result with the votes cast in https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658. However, there is just no calculation where the "Keeping" fraction has a majority. I'm glad to say that this result allows us to continue improving ReactOS. By not sticking with abandoned compilers like MSVC 2010 indefinitely, we can leverage the powers of C99 and C++11 and all third-party projects that have been developed after 2010. Victor's recent integration of WDF/KMDF has already paved the way for a new storage stack that many of you could already test. And an import of libc++ would finally fix the mess that our current C++ STL support is. Cheers, Colin ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
Hello everybody and a happy new year! Am 26.11.2020 um 09:27 schrieb Colin Finck: So let's have an open discussion and voting process right here on the mailing list for everyone to see, to decide this once and for all! Just reply to this mail, tell about your reasons - and more importantly tell whether you support or reject dropping MSVC 2010 support. Votes by CORE REACTOS MEMBERS are then counted on 1ST JANUARY 2021. 1st January has passed and it's time to count the votes cast on the mailing list. First of all, a big thank you to the people who have submitted their opinions! Your votes matter to get the best possible overview on this topic. It's a pity that many developers have not replied, when I'm sure that they have an opinion here. On the other hand, it's quite understandable considering that this is already the 3rd (and definitely last!) time we are debating this matter. So without further ado, here are the votes everyone can gather from the replies on ros-dev: Dropping MSVC 2010 support for building ReactOS === * Colin Finck * Dominik Hornung * Ged Murphy * Mark Jansen * Stanislav Motylkov * Victor Perevertkin Keeping MSVC 2010 support for building ReactOS == * Doug Lyons * Hermès Bélusca-Maïto * Joachim Henze * Oleg Dubinskij Third discussion, third time it's the same result. Thanks for providing a clear answer on that! Note that I haven't applied the "CORE REACTOS MEMBERS" filter here, but that would lead to roughly the same number of votes getting subtracted on both sides. I also leave it up to you to merge this result with the votes cast in https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658. However, there is just no calculation where the "Keeping" fraction has a majority. I'm glad to say that this result allows us to continue improving ReactOS. By not sticking with abandoned compilers like MSVC 2010 indefinitely, we can leverage the powers of C99 and C++11 and all third-party projects that have been developed after 2010. Victor's recent integration of WDF/KMDF has already paved the way for a new storage stack that many of you could already test. And an import of libc++ would finally fix the mess that our current C++ STL support is. Cheers, Colin OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
[ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
I wanted to add, that vgal and Doug Lyons were also favoring continued VS2010 support, as we can see clearly in the PRs discussion https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658 Please do count also those contributors voices. Some more regarding some brought up arguments: >>"BTRFS and its sync will benefit from the drop": I see a working BTRFS in 0.4.14RC60, which has VS2010 support. And I see a totally broken BTRFS that does not even boot at all any longer in master head 0.4.15-dev-1605-gab45955. A fact. >>"We should replace all proven compilers with superior Clang" I have not seen a ros yet, that would even boot at all with Clang. Also according to discussions they do still lack SEH 32bit support. And even if they would develop that one day, how big will the resulting ros isos be then? And that still would not solve the compat to older build platforms 2k3sp2/XPSP3 and ros. Wishful thinking just. >>"We need the drop for the new standard library." And where is that library? No one did ever integrate that into ros, although the compilers drop has been rushed into master months ago already. As Hermes said already: I see no gain, but I do see a lot of pain and unfinished WIP+wishful thinking. ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
As I said, "It doesn't work without the standard library support". You will need to use a different standard library for old compilers Victor On Mon, 2020-12-21 at 18:47 +0100, Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAÏTO wrote: > But there is one thing here, it doesn't work without the standard > library > > support. ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
And it's not possible to use these tools and libraries as plug-in and -out? I mean, for example, for people interested in these, and some of our buildbots, to do "configure+build using libc++ and LLVM" in order to get more info about the code they write in ROS, and in such a way that it is also possible for other people who want to build ROS with e.g. MSVC 2010, to instead "configure+build using MSVC 2010 + older lib" ? Regards, Hermes -Original Message- From: Ros-dev On Behalf Of Victor Perevertkin Sent: 18. prosinca 2020. 05:13 To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020) Many words were said already about dropping the support for old compilers. I agree with all of them and want to put one more argument on top of it from myself. There are a lot of innovations happen in compilers and tooling. Big companies put thousands of man-hours to improve compiler toolchains and standard libraries (LLVM and libc++ are the headliners here - everything goes there first). It's silly not to use all of those, it makes finding bugs easier by orders of magnitude (modern C++ makes you write code with less bugs too, but that has been said already). For example, AddressSanitizer will show you out of bounds access right where it happened, with stack trace and memory contents. But there is one thing here, it doesn't work without the standard library support. Of course, we can write that into our own lib (stlport?), reinventing the wheel. But isn't it better to spend time on something ReactOS-related, where there is no open source code available at all? (note: I'm asking about who is going to do that) And if we choose to incorporate libc++ into our project, which supports all of that tooling out of the box for Windows, we have another problem - it can't be compiled with ancient compilers. So basically, the choice is simple - either we support building ReactOS with old compilers (this is not only about MSVC2010, but for everything which doesn't support modern-enough C++), or we benefit from modern tech for dynamic and static code analysis. I prefer the latter. Regards, Victor ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
Many words were said already about dropping the support for old compilers. I agree with all of them and want to put one more argument on top of it from myself. There are a lot of innovations happen in compilers and tooling. Big companies put thousands of man-hours to improve compiler toolchains and standard libraries (LLVM and libc++ are the headliners here - everything goes there first). It's silly not to use all of those, it makes finding bugs easier by orders of magnitude (modern C++ makes you write code with less bugs too, but that has been said already). For example, AddressSanitizer will show you out of bounds access right where it happened, with stack trace and memory contents. But there is one thing here, it doesn't work without the standard library support. Of course, we can write that into our own lib (stlport?), reinventing the wheel. But isn't it better to spend time on something ReactOS-related, where there is no open source code available at all? (note: I'm asking about who is going to do that) And if we choose to incorporate libc++ into our project, which supports all of that tooling out of the box for Windows, we have another problem - it can't be compiled with ancient compilers. So basically, the choice is simple - either we support building ReactOS with old compilers (this is not only about MSVC2010, but for everything which doesn't support modern-enough C++), or we benefit from modern tech for dynamic and static code analysis. I prefer the latter. Regards, Victor ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
[ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
Hello, as Colin already mentioned, I have tried to compile libc++ for ReactOS. I stopped the project for two reasons: 1. The current state of the CRT in ReactOS. 2. The ongoing discussion about MSVC 2010. With MSVC 2010 it is of course impossible to compile a current version of libc++. So why should I waste my time? Without a clear commitment to using current C++ compilers, it simply makes no sense. As Colin described in detail, current technologies would increase the pace of development and attract more interested developers. Developers like me, who simply do something else without the project ever knowing about them. But don't get me wrong, this is not about me or libc++. Maybe libc++ cannot be used for other reasons after all! But with MSVC 2010 you don't even have to start. All the best, Dominik ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
A detailed investigation would be needed for sure, but I am currently thinking about two things: - some Vista+ functions being used (for example: GetTickCount64, some functions using the SRW locks …) - the possible usage of apisets dlls. In any case in order to cope with that in ROS, we would need the forwards-compatibility layer (almost) fully implemented, that can “activate” the support for these Vista+ features at runtime, for any program that requires it. From: Ros-dev On Behalf Of Magnus Johnsson Sent: 2. prosinca 2020. 17:22 To: ReactOS Development List Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020) Just a question from the outside here. If we look forward instead of backwards, what work would it take to make *just the command line build tools* work on reactos for newer versions? Is that something to strive for? Is there a missing API, is it fundamentally incompatible in some way, is reactos 'target windows version' wrong..? Den ons 2 dec. 2020 kl 11:14 skrev mailto:gedmurphy.mailli...@gmail.com> >: I unfortunately don't get to contribute much anymore due to other commitments, so my view has little weight here, however I just wanted to throw my support behind Colin here in his effort to move the project forward. Personally, I'd love to see reactos move to more modern standards, allowing more emphasis to be placed onto modern C++ and the benefits it brings: - Support for scoped resources and RAII - Better type checking - Stronger use of const correctness - Range based loops - Use of bool and nullptr instead of BOOLEAN/BOOL and NULL - Even use of the thing I hate the most ... auto 😊 - STL in user mode - vectors, lists, etc - NATVIS support to make the above easy to debug - etc, etc, etc I'm not advocating that these should be requirements, or to ever try to push devs to make use of them, but it would be incredibly useful to give developers the option if they prefer, as so many developers no do. If it were me, I'd be tempted to drop VS2015 support too, only ever supporting the last two major toolchains from any compiler. Ged. -Original Message- From: Ros-dev mailto:ros-dev-boun...@reactos.org> > On Behalf Of Colin Finck Sent: 02 December 2020 08:07 To: ros-dev@reactos.org <mailto:ros-dev@reactos.org> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020) > 1. Visual Studio 2010 is the last version that works (or almost works) > on ReactOS [...] > 2. Dropping useful features is not really a good idea at all. Oleg, nobody wants to take away any features here. VS2010 will continue to run on ReactOS now and in the future. This discussion is merely about *compiling ReactOS* with VS2010. Everyone, please put personal preferences aside and think about the big picture: We don't have the workforce Microsoft had when creating Windows XP. The only way we can ever create a compatible OS is by leveraging modern technologies not yet available back then and building on the open-source work third parties have already done for us. If we however decide to limit us to 10-year-old technologies now, we can do neither. Don't expect us to ever get this project into a usable state in a lifetime then. The future of the project is at stake here! I don't want to repeat myself, so let me just link to the reasoning I already gave: * https://reactos.org/archives/public/ros-dev/2020-December/019158.html * https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658#issuecomment-619540076 * https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658#issuecomment-629498043 * https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658#discussion_r427615924 * https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658#issuecomment-631113317 Best regards, Colin Finck ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org <mailto:Ros-dev@reactos.org> http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
Just a question from the outside here. If we look forward instead of backwards, what work would it take to make *just the command line build tools* work on reactos for newer versions? Is that something to strive for? Is there a missing API, is it fundamentally incompatible in some way, is reactos 'target windows version' wrong..? Den ons 2 dec. 2020 kl 11:14 skrev : > I unfortunately don't get to contribute much anymore due to other > commitments, so my view has little weight here, however I just wanted to > throw my support behind Colin here in his effort to move the project > forward. > > Personally, I'd love to see reactos move to more modern standards, > allowing more emphasis to be placed onto modern C++ and the benefits it > brings: > - Support for scoped resources and RAII > - Better type checking > - Stronger use of const correctness > - Range based loops > - Use of bool and nullptr instead of BOOLEAN/BOOL and NULL > - Even use of the thing I hate the most ... auto 😊 > - STL in user mode > - vectors, lists, etc > - NATVIS support to make the above easy to debug > - etc, etc, etc > > I'm not advocating that these should be requirements, or to ever try to > push devs to make use of them, but it would be incredibly useful to give > developers the option if they prefer, as so many developers no do. > > If it were me, I'd be tempted to drop VS2015 support too, only ever > supporting the last two major toolchains from any compiler. > > Ged. > > > -Original Message----- > From: Ros-dev On Behalf Of Colin Finck > Sent: 02 December 2020 08:07 > To: ros-dev@reactos.org > Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020) > > > 1. Visual Studio 2010 is the last version that works (or almost works) > > on ReactOS [...] > > 2. Dropping useful features is not really a good idea at all. > > Oleg, nobody wants to take away any features here. VS2010 will continue > to run on ReactOS now and in the future. This discussion is merely about > *compiling ReactOS* with VS2010. > > Everyone, please put personal preferences aside and think about the big > picture: > We don't have the workforce Microsoft had when creating Windows XP. > The only way we can ever create a compatible OS is by leveraging modern > technologies not yet available back then and building on the open-source > work third parties have already done for us. > If we however decide to limit us to 10-year-old technologies now, we can > do neither. Don't expect us to ever get this project into a usable state > in a lifetime then. > The future of the project is at stake here! > > I don't want to repeat myself, so let me just link to the reasoning I > already gave: > * https://reactos.org/archives/public/ros-dev/2020-December/019158.html > * https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658#issuecomment-619540076 > * https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658#issuecomment-629498043 > * https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658#discussion_r427615924 > * https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658#issuecomment-631113317 > > > Best regards, > > Colin Finck > > > > ___ > Ros-dev mailing list > Ros-dev@reactos.org > http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev > ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
I unfortunately don't get to contribute much anymore due to other commitments, so my view has little weight here, however I just wanted to throw my support behind Colin here in his effort to move the project forward. Personally, I'd love to see reactos move to more modern standards, allowing more emphasis to be placed onto modern C++ and the benefits it brings: - Support for scoped resources and RAII - Better type checking - Stronger use of const correctness - Range based loops - Use of bool and nullptr instead of BOOLEAN/BOOL and NULL - Even use of the thing I hate the most ... auto 😊 - STL in user mode - vectors, lists, etc - NATVIS support to make the above easy to debug - etc, etc, etc I'm not advocating that these should be requirements, or to ever try to push devs to make use of them, but it would be incredibly useful to give developers the option if they prefer, as so many developers no do. If it were me, I'd be tempted to drop VS2015 support too, only ever supporting the last two major toolchains from any compiler. Ged. -Original Message- From: Ros-dev On Behalf Of Colin Finck Sent: 02 December 2020 08:07 To: ros-dev@reactos.org Subject: Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020) > 1. Visual Studio 2010 is the last version that works (or almost works) > on ReactOS [...] > 2. Dropping useful features is not really a good idea at all. Oleg, nobody wants to take away any features here. VS2010 will continue to run on ReactOS now and in the future. This discussion is merely about *compiling ReactOS* with VS2010. Everyone, please put personal preferences aside and think about the big picture: We don't have the workforce Microsoft had when creating Windows XP. The only way we can ever create a compatible OS is by leveraging modern technologies not yet available back then and building on the open-source work third parties have already done for us. If we however decide to limit us to 10-year-old technologies now, we can do neither. Don't expect us to ever get this project into a usable state in a lifetime then. The future of the project is at stake here! I don't want to repeat myself, so let me just link to the reasoning I already gave: * https://reactos.org/archives/public/ros-dev/2020-December/019158.html * https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658#issuecomment-619540076 * https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658#issuecomment-629498043 * https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658#discussion_r427615924 * https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658#issuecomment-631113317 Best regards, Colin Finck ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
1. Visual Studio 2010 is the last version that works (or almost works) on ReactOS [...] 2. Dropping useful features is not really a good idea at all. Oleg, nobody wants to take away any features here. VS2010 will continue to run on ReactOS now and in the future. This discussion is merely about *compiling ReactOS* with VS2010. Everyone, please put personal preferences aside and think about the big picture: We don't have the workforce Microsoft had when creating Windows XP. The only way we can ever create a compatible OS is by leveraging modern technologies not yet available back then and building on the open-source work third parties have already done for us. If we however decide to limit us to 10-year-old technologies now, we can do neither. Don't expect us to ever get this project into a usable state in a lifetime then. The future of the project is at stake here! I don't want to repeat myself, so let me just link to the reasoning I already gave: * https://reactos.org/archives/public/ros-dev/2020-December/019158.html * https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658#issuecomment-619540076 * https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658#issuecomment-629498043 * https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658#discussion_r427615924 * https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658#issuecomment-631113317 Best regards, Colin Finck OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
Joachim, I know about your obsession with Windows XP, which makes it hard to introduce any tool that was created in the last 5 years to improve ReactOS development. In fact, I've already spent multiple days on porting current CMake and Ninja back to Windows XP just to not lock you out [1] [2] [3]. A few of your statements can't be left unchallenged though. Arguments that were raised by others against VS2010 and my reply: -"ditching it brings in new developers to ros magically" <- I do ask then, where are they? Hah, nice try! People aren't accepting a 2-year-old decision on dropping VS2010 support yet, even hijack unrelated PRs to mix requested style changes with a call for restoring VS2010 support [4] - and you're already asking for the new developers coming from that "welcoming" attitude towards modern technologies.. Let me be straight: This ain't gonna happen until we import a C++ standard library that actually supports modern C++! Anyway, it's not like my claims are unfounded. Quoting Dominik2 from Mattermost, one of the potential new developers: "if 2020 is the year were ReactOS is ready to leave the 80ths of programming (win32 and C), let me know." He already put his money where his mouth is and started importing Clang's up-to-date and maintained libc++ into ReactOS. Unfortunately, the efforts got halted for now by the equally sorry state of our CRT. -"we should not be limited to strict C89" <- No one did request for that. All we want is to remain compatible to VS2010. Requesting compatibility with VS2010 is exactly the same as requesting us to stay with C89. Visual Studio has no C99 support until version 2013 [5] [6]. -"syncing BTRFS is a bit harder" <- So what? Then let others do the job. -"libc++" <- I see no urgent need and nothing it would give in return that would outweight what we would sacrifice. I get the feeling that you still believe we can code an entire operating system on our own and don't need any third-party components.. We already need VS2010-specific hacks for almost every library we import. As someone who has done that kind of work in the past, let me tell you that it adds at least a day of work for each sync. Work that is unthankful and could otherwise be spent on actual ReactOS development. Multiply that by the number of external dependencies and you get an idea of the wasted time. Besides, you don't seem to be aware of the sad state of C++ runtime support in ReactOS: We're currently trying to get away with the unmaintained C++98 STLport on MSVC builds and the *ROSBE-PROVIDED* GNU libstdc++ on GCC builds. Each RosBE release requires a new hack in our tree to somehow glue RosBE libstdc++ (compiled against RosBE CRT) and target code (compiled against ReactOS CRT) together [7]. The result is still undebuggable, as it has symbol addresses belonging to the unique libstdc++ build of that RosBE installation. Calling that situation "no[t] urgent" is grossly negligent. My arguments again for keeping VS2010: -VS2010 creates the smallest binaries of all compilers we do support This is not a metric that is in any way relevant for an alpha-stage operating system that only exists as Debug builds.. Get someone to spend a day or two on optimizing our Release builds and figuring out what blows up the binaries on other compilers, and this argument will no longer hold. -VS2010 CAN be installed in ros, when ros is installed as Server during 2nd stage -VS2010 can now even open the VS2010 cmd prompt Yes, that's a really nice achievement, and exactly why nobody here wants to remove support for *running* VS2010 *under* ReactOS :) This entire discussion is only about *compiling ReactOS* with VS2010. Which, if made a strict requirement for the upcoming years, jeopardizes the future of the project, as I illustrated above. -no other VS>2010 can even complete its setup in ros, and that will remain like that for many years to come Again, you're not looking into the future here and totally neglect the application support for NT6+ that is being worked on. -VS2010 [...] covers > 95% of CPP2011-standard. Not even close: [8] Best regards, Colin Finck [1] https://github.com/libuv/libuv/pull/2800 [2] https://github.com/reactos/CMake/commits/cmake-3.17.2-reactos [3] https://github.com/ninja-build/ninja/pull/1674#pullrequestreview-425803525 [4] https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/3094#pullrequestreview-541258099 [5] https://stackoverflow.com/q/6688895 [6] https://devblogs.microsoft.com/cppblog/c99-library-support-in-visual-studio-2013/ [7] https://github.com/reactos/reactos/commit/fdd1d7d60c33b08f4181df8e81c739694762898b [8] https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/hh567368.aspx OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
hello, As you know i am not a developer, so please do not take my words very seriously afaik VS2010 is not open source and in my opinion ReactOS, as an open source project, should be compiled using open source tools On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 1:33 PM Олег Дубінський wrote: > Hi all. > > I'm agreed with Hermes too and voting for restoring VS2010 support, at > least because: > 1. Visual Studio 2010 is the last version that works (or almost works) on > ReactOS (for now), and it's the only one app which allows compile MSVC > build of ROS (a. will MSVC compiler work propely without VS2010 command > prompt?; b. using MSVC instead of GCC is badly required in some cases, e. > g., for finding build-specific regressions), so by dropping the VS2010 > support, it is not possible anymore to build MSVC ROS on ROS (and as I > know, current RosBE doesn't support MSVC compiler out of the box, if it > does support that at all). > 2. Dropping useful features is not really a good idea at all. > > That's my arguments for restoring VS2010 support in ReactOS. > I can't say anything more. > > Best regards, > > Oleg Dubinskiy. > ___ > Ros-dev mailing list > Ros-dev@reactos.org > http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev > ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
[ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
Hi all. I'm agreed with Hermes too and voting for restoring VS2010 support, at least because:1. Visual Studio 2010 is the last version that works (or almost works) on ReactOS (for now), and it's the only one app which allows compile MSVC build of ROS (a. will MSVC compiler work propely without VS2010 command prompt?; b. using MSVC instead of GCC is badly required in some cases, e. g., for finding build-specific regressions), so by dropping the VS2010 support, it is not possible anymore to build MSVC ROS on ROS (and as I know, current RosBE doesn't support MSVC compiler out of the box, if it does support that at all).2. Dropping useful features is not really a good idea at all. That's my arguments for restoring VS2010 support in ReactOS.I can't say anything more. Best regards, Oleg Dubinskiy. ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
[ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
Hi all. I'm agreed with Hermes too and voting for restoring VS2010 support, at least because:1. Visual Studio 2010 is the last version that works (or almost works) on ReactOS (for now), and it's the only one app which allows compile MSVC build of ROS (a. will MSVC compiler work propely without VS2010 command prompt?; b. using MSVC instead of GCC is badly required in some cases, e. g., for finding build-specific regressions), so by dropping the VS2010 support, it is not possible anymore to build MSVC ROS on ROS (and as I know, current RosBE doesn't support MSVC compiler out of the box, if it does support that at all).2. Dropping useful features is not really a good idea at all. That's my arguments for restoring VS2010 support in ReactOS.I can't say anything more. Best regards, Oleg Dubinskiy. ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
[ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
Hello, Please note that I would like to cast a vote in favor of restoring compatibility for VS2010. Thanks very much, Doug Lyons -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
[ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
I totally and vehemently agree with Hermes here: We should NOT ditch VS2010. Arguments that were raised by others against VS2010 and my reply: -"ditching it brings in new developers to ros magically" <- I do ask then, where are they? I don't see any. -"we should not be limited to strict C89" <- No one did request for that. All we want is to remain compatible to VS2010. A subset. -"syncing BTRFS is a bit harder" <- So what? Then let others do the job. Actually BTRFS is not even a mandatory feature of ros. Having it in the tree is just luxury. -"libc++" <- I see no urgent need and nothing it would give in return that would outweight what we would sacrifice. My arguments again for keeping VS2010: -VS2010 creates the smallest binaries of all compilers we do support -VS2010 CAN be installed in ros, when ros is installed as Server during 2nd stage, (yes this was not the case for a very short moment, unfortunately exactly when we discussed in https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658 but now it works again, even in 0.4.14-RC51) -VS2010 can now even open the VS2010 cmd prompt see https://jira.reactos.org/secure/attachment/57140/57140_0.4.15-dev-203-g711f631_fixed.webm -no other VS>2010 can even complete its setup in ros, and that will remain like that for many years to come -VS2010 is the last version that runs on XPSP3 (which is important for some of our devs including myself) -VS2010 is the last version that runs on 2k3SP2 which is our current target -VS2010 is reliable with industry-proven stability, and itself no moving target (unlike VS2019 which breaks our builds every few weeks when MS upgrades it) -VS2010 DOES provide std::unique_ptr. Stating anything else is just a lie. It covers > 95% of CPP2011-standard. It is absolutely possible and not complicated to write leak-free-code with it. ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
I think I agree with Colin on that. I personally remember some people who said something like «meh… C89». You can try to change my mind though, if you can answer two questions: * How can we attract new experienced developers who prefer new C standards while still conforming to C89? * How can we make 3rd party modules maintenance to have less overhead while still having support for MSVC2010? Seriously regarding self-hosting I think we should focus on NT6+ application compatibility shims to support newer MS CL compilers. >Thursday, 26 November 2020, 11:28 +03:00 from Colin Finck : > >Am 25.11.2020 um 22:26 schrieb Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAÏTO: >> What about that discussion about why we have ditched out MSVC 2010 support >You mean reintroducing an ancient compiler that forces us to hack around >its incapacity to deal with anything more modern than C89? One that >already makes it harder to import third-party components and attract new >developers? > >Let's face it, we already make our incredible job of writing a >Windows-compatible operating system even harder than Microsoft's - by >supporting both GCC and MSVC. We spend enormous amounts of time to just >get the basics right for both toolchains, and still fail at things like >the C++ standard library. Ditching MSVC 2010 finally paves the way for >importing a modern and trusted third-party C++ library like Clang's >libc++ to replace our hacked and unmaintained stlport. Going even >further, we could finally draw from the huge pool of talented C++ >developers, who leverage the benefits of C++11 and beyond. Think about >that next time you debug a memory leak or a deadlock that would have >been impossible through std::unique_ptr or std::mutex. > >This project won't ever become usable in a lifetime if we don't go with >the time but stick to old habits forever. There is no inherent value in >supporting old compilers, just wasted developer time. >And don't tell me about self-hosting: It's not like anybody productively >uses ReactOS for building ReactOS right now. If you just want to >demonstrate that, use the RosBE GCC-based toolchain. I already spent >hours on backporting that back to ReactOS/Windows XP... > > >Now I usually would have put that on the agenda for the meeting and >asked for a vote. >But as this year's ditching of MSVC 2010 is just the implementation of a >meeting decision from 2 years ago >( https://reactos.org/project-news/december-2018-meeting-minutes/ ), >meeting votes are apparently not considered binding here. Neither is >apparently the discussion we had in the related PR >https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658 . > > >So let's have an open discussion and voting process right here on the >mailing list for everyone to see, to decide this once and for all! >Just reply to this mail, tell about your reasons - and more importantly >tell whether you support or reject dropping MSVC 2010 support. > >Votes by CORE REACTOS MEMBERS are then counted on 1ST JANUARY 2021. > > >At this point, it should be obvious that I myself SUPPORT the decision >to ditch building ReactOS with MSVC 2010. > > >Cheers, > >Colin > > >___ >Ros-dev mailing list >Ros-dev@reactos.org >http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev > -- Stanislav Motylkov___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
Hey, > How much work needs to be done to get newer versions of MSVC > running This needs our compatibility layer to be finished (it's progressing, but slowly) > How big is the danger to lose the capability to exchange ReactOS > and Win 2k3 system files? As far as I know, we don't have issues with that atm with the latest MSVC > There isn't a time plan to get at least the core system file > structure, exports and structures at Win 6+ level yet, right? Nope. But a compatibility layer in usermode should be enough for now > How big is the danger that newer MSVC versions can't be used to > compile ReactOS anymore? (E.g. loosing the capability to build Win > XP compatible files) We use a barebones compiler, without any SDK or something. The only danger I see - they may remove support for old architectures or SEH mechanism (CxxFrameHandler3). So far latest version work And we always have GCC and clang, the latter is going to have a full SEH support in some near future Victor On Thu, 2020-11-26 at 10:07 +0100, mich...@fritscher.net wrote: > Moin, > > a few questions: >* How much work needs to be done to get newer versions of MSVC > running > by e.g. using the shims? (not GUI, only the toolchain, and possibly > hack > around installer problems)? >* How big is the danger to lose the capability to exchange ReactOS > and > Win 2k3 system files? >* There isn't a time plan to get at least the core system file > structure, exports and structures at Win 6+ level yet, right? >* How big is the danger that newer MSVC versions can't be used to > compile ReactOS anymore? (E.g. loosing the capability to build Win > XP > compatible files) > > I think the first question/solution could be a short time > compromise, > the rest points at the "real" long time solution: targeting a newer > Windows version.. > > Best regards, > Michael Fritscher > > ___ > Ros-dev mailing list > Ros-dev@reactos.org > http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
Agreed with Colin. On 26-Nov-20 09:27, Colin Finck wrote: Am 25.11.2020 um 22:26 schrieb Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAÏTO: What about that discussion about why we have ditched out MSVC 2010 support You mean reintroducing an ancient compiler that forces us to hack around its incapacity to deal with anything more modern than C89? One that already makes it harder to import third-party components and attract new developers? Let's face it, we already make our incredible job of writing a Windows-compatible operating system even harder than Microsoft's - by supporting both GCC and MSVC. We spend enormous amounts of time to just get the basics right for both toolchains, and still fail at things like the C++ standard library. Ditching MSVC 2010 finally paves the way for importing a modern and trusted third-party C++ library like Clang's libc++ to replace our hacked and unmaintained stlport. Going even further, we could finally draw from the huge pool of talented C++ developers, who leverage the benefits of C++11 and beyond. Think about that next time you debug a memory leak or a deadlock that would have been impossible through std::unique_ptr or std::mutex. This project won't ever become usable in a lifetime if we don't go with the time but stick to old habits forever. There is no inherent value in supporting old compilers, just wasted developer time. And don't tell me about self-hosting: It's not like anybody productively uses ReactOS for building ReactOS right now. If you just want to demonstrate that, use the RosBE GCC-based toolchain. I already spent hours on backporting that back to ReactOS/Windows XP... Now I usually would have put that on the agenda for the meeting and asked for a vote. But as this year's ditching of MSVC 2010 is just the implementation of a meeting decision from 2 years ago (https://reactos.org/project-news/december-2018-meeting-minutes/), meeting votes are apparently not considered binding here. Neither is apparently the discussion we had in the related PR https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658. So let's have an open discussion and voting process right here on the mailing list for everyone to see, to decide this once and for all! Just reply to this mail, tell about your reasons - and more importantly tell whether you support or reject dropping MSVC 2010 support. Votes by CORE REACTOS MEMBERS are then counted on 1ST JANUARY 2021. At this point, it should be obvious that I myself SUPPORT the decision to ditch building ReactOS with MSVC 2010. Cheers, Colin ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
Moin, a few questions: * How much work needs to be done to get newer versions of MSVC running by e.g. using the shims? (not GUI, only the toolchain, and possibly hack around installer problems)? * How big is the danger to lose the capability to exchange ReactOS and Win 2k3 system files? * There isn't a time plan to get at least the core system file structure, exports and structures at Win 6+ level yet, right? * How big is the danger that newer MSVC versions can't be used to compile ReactOS anymore? (E.g. loosing the capability to build Win XP compatible files) I think the first question/solution could be a short time compromise, the rest points at the "real" long time solution: targeting a newer Windows version.. Best regards, Michael Fritscher ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
Hi, I would like to add another point to our meeting agenda.I would like share my intention of taking over the management of official ReactOS Twitter account. You already know that in the end of April 2020, I have started a Turkish account to promote ReactOS. Limited success for now, will do a massive promotion when 0.4.14 is released.The thing is, quite interesting things happen in ReactOS and few are shared with public. This is caused from the inactivity of Victor Martinez Calvo, unfortunately. I would like to step up and help here. Hopefully, followers of ReactOS (and potential contributors) will increase.Best regards, Can ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
Am 25.11.2020 um 22:26 schrieb Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAÏTO: What about that discussion about why we have ditched out MSVC 2010 support You mean reintroducing an ancient compiler that forces us to hack around its incapacity to deal with anything more modern than C89? One that already makes it harder to import third-party components and attract new developers? Let's face it, we already make our incredible job of writing a Windows-compatible operating system even harder than Microsoft's - by supporting both GCC and MSVC. We spend enormous amounts of time to just get the basics right for both toolchains, and still fail at things like the C++ standard library. Ditching MSVC 2010 finally paves the way for importing a modern and trusted third-party C++ library like Clang's libc++ to replace our hacked and unmaintained stlport. Going even further, we could finally draw from the huge pool of talented C++ developers, who leverage the benefits of C++11 and beyond. Think about that next time you debug a memory leak or a deadlock that would have been impossible through std::unique_ptr or std::mutex. This project won't ever become usable in a lifetime if we don't go with the time but stick to old habits forever. There is no inherent value in supporting old compilers, just wasted developer time. And don't tell me about self-hosting: It's not like anybody productively uses ReactOS for building ReactOS right now. If you just want to demonstrate that, use the RosBE GCC-based toolchain. I already spent hours on backporting that back to ReactOS/Windows XP... Now I usually would have put that on the agenda for the meeting and asked for a vote. But as this year's ditching of MSVC 2010 is just the implementation of a meeting decision from 2 years ago (https://reactos.org/project-news/december-2018-meeting-minutes/), meeting votes are apparently not considered binding here. Neither is apparently the discussion we had in the related PR https://github.com/reactos/reactos/pull/2658. So let's have an open discussion and voting process right here on the mailing list for everyone to see, to decide this once and for all! Just reply to this mail, tell about your reasons - and more importantly tell whether you support or reject dropping MSVC 2010 support. Votes by CORE REACTOS MEMBERS are then counted on 1ST JANUARY 2021. At this point, it should be obvious that I myself SUPPORT the decision to ditch building ReactOS with MSVC 2010. Cheers, Colin OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
What do you mean by C99+ non-portable code? GCC and Clang have -std=c(++)11 to keep it in an ISO compliant manner. 26 Kas 2020 Per 00:27 tarihinde Hermès BÉLUSCA-MAÏTO şunu yazdı: > What about that discussion about why we have ditched out MSVC 2010 support > (starting to depend on that fact, and thus, breaking any possibility of > self-hosting ROS building on ROS using MSVC compiler (without the IDE), > since later versions of MSVC only work on Vista+, and as an indirect > consequence, too, opening the can of worms, that is, being able to > "pollute", involuntarily or not, the ReactOS core code (kernel + drivers) > with C99+ non-standard portable code -- ), > and without having first warned heavily through all the mailing lists etc. > , > thus allowing the developers to voice their concerns publicly in the MLs ? > This was done around in mattermost only, after we decided for some reason > that we wouldn't need the VC2010 buildbots anymore. > > Hermes. > > -Original Message- > From: Ros-dev On Behalf Of Colin Finck > Sent: Sun Nov 15 17:24:22 UTC 2020 > To: ReactOS Development List > Subject: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020) > > Hi all, > > With several people asking for a status meeting, let's have another one > before the year is over. > Let me invite you to the meeting on > >Thursday, 26th November 2020 >19:00 UTC >Mattermost private channel "Meeting" > > So far, there is only one point on the agenda: > > * Achievements and Future Outlook (everyone) > What have you been working on and what are your plans? > > Please submit further agenda proposals by answering to this mail. > > > Looking forward to see you! > > Colin > > > ___ > Ros-dev mailing list > Ros-dev@reactos.org > http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev > ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
Re: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
What about that discussion about why we have ditched out MSVC 2010 support (starting to depend on that fact, and thus, breaking any possibility of self-hosting ROS building on ROS using MSVC compiler (without the IDE), since later versions of MSVC only work on Vista+, and as an indirect consequence, too, opening the can of worms, that is, being able to "pollute", involuntarily or not, the ReactOS core code (kernel + drivers) with C99+ non-standard portable code -- ), and without having first warned heavily through all the mailing lists etc. , thus allowing the developers to voice their concerns publicly in the MLs ? This was done around in mattermost only, after we decided for some reason that we wouldn't need the VC2010 buildbots anymore. Hermes. -Original Message- From: Ros-dev On Behalf Of Colin Finck Sent: Sun Nov 15 17:24:22 UTC 2020 To: ReactOS Development List Subject: [ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020) Hi all, With several people asking for a status meeting, let's have another one before the year is over. Let me invite you to the meeting on Thursday, 26th November 2020 19:00 UTC Mattermost private channel "Meeting" So far, there is only one point on the agenda: * Achievements and Future Outlook (everyone) What have you been working on and what are your plans? Please submit further agenda proposals by answering to this mail. Looking forward to see you! Colin ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
[ros-dev] Status Meeting (November 2020)
Hi all, With several people asking for a status meeting, let's have another one before the year is over. Let me invite you to the meeting on Thursday, 26th November 2020 19:00 UTC Mattermost private channel "Meeting" So far, there is only one point on the agenda: * Achievements and Future Outlook (everyone) What have you been working on and what are your plans? Please submit further agenda proposals by answering to this mail. Looking forward to see you! Colin OpenPGP_0x1BA74E70456BA1A9.asc Description: application/pgp-keys OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Ros-dev mailing list Ros-dev@reactos.org http://reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
