Re: [Rosegarden-user] Encouragement

2013-01-27 Thread D. Michael McIntyre
On 01/26/2013 01:11 PM, Abrolag wrote:

 For Michael and the other long-suffering devs.

Sweet!

(Ignoring Holger emphasizing the great importance of fixing things I 
just can't do anything about.)
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Encouragement

2013-01-27 Thread Lorenzo Sutton
On 26/01/13 19:35, Holger Marzen wrote:
 On Sat, 26 Jan 2013, Abrolag wrote:


[...]

 I encounter that's made with Rosegarden or other Open Source
 Software avoids instruments that need exact timings.

Sure it's so general? Isn't this doable by setting JACK latency low? I 
thinking of Rosegarden doing only midi and hooking instruments (e.g. 
fluidsynth) through alsa-midi etc.

I tried a very quick experiment, not at all my usual music, but just the 
kind which, maybe, wants exact timing and fast attacks and it seems more 
than decent, and everything seemed to work ok.

Lorenzo.
PS. I can share the experiment if anyone is interested, but it's really 
cheesy stuff...

I don't know if
 it's caused by lacking/faulty latency compensation. But it's an
 important thing, at least for me. It's easy to imagine that many
 musicians tried Open Source software and ran away when they noticed that
 it doesn't sound as exact and doesn't get the groove as in commercial
 sowftare.

 That's bad.

 Unfortunately I can't do C++ and doesn't understand the internal
 concepts of Rosegarden. But I think it's damn important that

 - we get the off-by-one latency compensation bug in subgroups fixed
 - we get the missing audio tracks don't get latency compensated at all
feature added
 - we get a positive/negative time offset in milliseconds per track
added or at least a milliseconds entry field, so I could delay every
track by 100 ms and use e.g. 90 ms as a substitue for -10 ms.

 That would Rosegarden make an outstanding DAW. Its track concept and its
 matrix and drum editors are already very good. It's (for me) much more
 important to get these bugs fixed than to add LV2 plugin capability or
 audio automation.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Encouragement

2013-01-27 Thread Holger Marzen
On Sun, 27 Jan 2013, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:

 On 26/01/13 19:35, Holger Marzen wrote:
  On Sat, 26 Jan 2013, Abrolag wrote:
 
 
 [...]
 
  I encounter that's made with Rosegarden or other Open Source
  Software avoids instruments that need exact timings.
 
 Sure it's so general? Isn't this doable by setting JACK latency low? I 
 thinking of Rosegarden doing only midi and hooking instruments (e.g. 
 fluidsynth) through alsa-midi etc.

It's noticable when using effect plugins.

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[Rosegarden-user] Latency

2013-01-27 Thread Abrolag
On Sun, 27 Jan 2013 19:25:02 +0100 (CET)
Holger Marzen hol...@marzen.de wrote:

 On Sun, 27 Jan 2013, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
 
  On 26/01/13 19:35, Holger Marzen wrote:
   On Sat, 26 Jan 2013, Abrolag wrote:
  
  
  [...]
  
   I encounter that's made with Rosegarden or other Open Source
   Software avoids instruments that need exact timings.
  
  Sure it's so general? Isn't this doable by setting JACK latency low? I 
  thinking of Rosegarden doing only midi and hooking instruments (e.g. 
  fluidsynth) through alsa-midi etc.
 
 It's noticable when using effect plugins.

I've changed the subject line because the intention of my original post was to
give the hard-pressed devs a bit of a lift, and this discussion is detracting
from that.

In the case of my recording, I would say that any latency is more likely to be
a function of my playing live, and not being as good as I'd like to be!

However, in general you are not comparing apples to apples. By their very
nature many effects deliberately introduce delays in order to function.

The most extreme example I know of is fast lookahead limiting. It side-chains
a control signal then delays the main path (typically about 20mS) in order to
apparently perform time travel and start to adjust the level before the spike
hits.

The integrated DAWS you get with Windows and Apple have default, fixed sets of
effects that they know the precise conditions of and can therefore actually
advance recorded tracks based on this precise knowledge. Try using unknown
plugins and the situation changes.

Without knowing the precise details of every effect you could plug in
Rosegarden has no hope of doing this. In practice I've never found it a problem
as it is easy to just jog a track left or right until it is correct.

There is also a pseudo-latency effect you can get if you mix slow attack sounds
with fast attack ones (something I do a lot of). I find that usually just one
'Jog Left' in the matrix viewer is enough - thank you very much whoever had
that bright idea!

-- 
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Encouragement

2013-01-27 Thread ram
 On 26/01/13 19:35, Holger Marzen wrote:
 On Sat, 26 Jan 2013, Abrolag wrote:


 [...]

 I encounter that's made with Rosegarden or other Open Source
 Software avoids instruments that need exact timings.

 Sure it's so general? Isn't this doable by setting JACK latency low? I
 thinking of Rosegarden doing only midi and hooking instruments (e.g.
 fluidsynth) through alsa-midi etc.


I agree, I've not found it to be a problem with Real Time versions of
Linux or recent versions of JACK/Alsa.

What IS often a problem is how certain SoundFonts are made up (if you are
using a SoundFont synth).  Many SoundFonts have uneven delays between
samples/instruments which is hard to compensate for.  The solution is to
just go edit the SoundFont with Swami and line everything up.

Likewise when using other sampled synths, such as Hydrogen.  The samples
can be uneven with respect to start times.

Other 'soft synths' usually have delays but they are usually pretty
consistent which is much less of a problem.  They are no worse, and
usually better, than external MIDI hardware synths.

Of course, all bets are off if the CPU(s) are overloaded.  More than a 50
percent system load is getting risky for audio work.  This should not be a
problem even on modest hardware if one keeps the number of simultaneous
tracks down to a reasonably sane number.




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