Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting

2016-04-07 Thread Silas Mortimer
I was thinking so much about the attachment that I forgot to say thank
you. And that "Tie Notes at Bar Lines" was what I was looking for, but
I'm glad to know that it might not work, lol.

If I might ask, because I've been wondering about this, what makes
doing notation so difficult? I know, of course, that there are many
rules to notation regardless of how you do it, but it's so
mathematical that I just kind of assumed that this would be one of the
most trivial parts. Boy, was I wrong, lol. So yeah, what makes it so
hard?

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:18 PM, D. Michael McIntyre
 wrote:
> On 04/07/2016 07:19 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>
>> Anyway, here's one example:
>>
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8p6zThp4KIdN2NyUXBRWHkxUHc/view?usp=sharing
>
>
> Red bar lines are Rosegarden's way of telling you that something is wrong.
> The measure does not count correctly, and this typically happens because it
> is too full.
>
> The automagic tool that's supposed to fix this kind of thing is Adjust ->
> Notes... -> Tie Notes at Bar Lines.
>
> I constructed a test example, and of course it isn't working at all! I'm not
> sure if that's a bug or my rusty understanding.
>
> So the next easiest way to go at this is to select the whole note and use
> Ctrl+2 to convert it into a half note.  Add another half note, select the
> pair, and tie them manually.  (You can also use Ctrl+Alt+2 to convert the
> whole note into a single half note with a performance duration of a whole
> note.  The note will sound for two full measures of 2/4 but it will only be
> written as one half note.  It may not be a good idea to have such an extreme
> difference between notation duration and performance duration, but it's an
> option.)
>
> If in doubt, erasing a bit of stuff and drawing that bit over again will get
> you around a lot of glitches.  Some glitches are your fault, some glitches
> are our fault.  Every time I get frustrated and think Rosegarden is a
> hopeless piece of crap, I go play with Sibelius or Finale.  Commercial
> software with years on us and presumably millions of dollars invested in
> development is only marginally better, and Rosegarden was built by rank
> amateurs.
>
>> Here's one more:
>>
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8p6zThp4KIdSmZOdUx3eWR4YVU/view?usp=sharing
>
>
> When notes are circled like that, you can interpret that to mean "there is
> something awfully weird here.  To do anything to resolve this one, I need
> the file you're working on.  (Send it directly to me if you're shy.)  Then I
> can look at what's what and sort it out.  I'll walk you through how I did
> what.
>
> --
> D. Michael McIntyre

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting

2016-04-07 Thread Silas Mortimer
I don't mind sending it here.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:18 PM, D. Michael McIntyre
 wrote:
> On 04/07/2016 07:19 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>
>> Anyway, here's one example:
>>
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8p6zThp4KIdN2NyUXBRWHkxUHc/view?usp=sharing
>
>
> Red bar lines are Rosegarden's way of telling you that something is wrong.
> The measure does not count correctly, and this typically happens because it
> is too full.
>
> The automagic tool that's supposed to fix this kind of thing is Adjust ->
> Notes... -> Tie Notes at Bar Lines.
>
> I constructed a test example, and of course it isn't working at all! I'm not
> sure if that's a bug or my rusty understanding.
>
> So the next easiest way to go at this is to select the whole note and use
> Ctrl+2 to convert it into a half note.  Add another half note, select the
> pair, and tie them manually.  (You can also use Ctrl+Alt+2 to convert the
> whole note into a single half note with a performance duration of a whole
> note.  The note will sound for two full measures of 2/4 but it will only be
> written as one half note.  It may not be a good idea to have such an extreme
> difference between notation duration and performance duration, but it's an
> option.)
>
> If in doubt, erasing a bit of stuff and drawing that bit over again will get
> you around a lot of glitches.  Some glitches are your fault, some glitches
> are our fault.  Every time I get frustrated and think Rosegarden is a
> hopeless piece of crap, I go play with Sibelius or Finale.  Commercial
> software with years on us and presumably millions of dollars invested in
> development is only marginally better, and Rosegarden was built by rank
> amateurs.
>
>> Here's one more:
>>
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8p6zThp4KIdSmZOdUx3eWR4YVU/view?usp=sharing
>
>
> When notes are circled like that, you can interpret that to mean "there is
> something awfully weird here.  To do anything to resolve this one, I need
> the file you're working on.  (Send it directly to me if you're shy.)  Then I
> can look at what's what and sort it out.  I'll walk you through how I did
> what.
>
> --
> D. Michael McIntyre


Unnamed.rg
Description: application/rosegarden-composition
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting

2016-04-07 Thread Silas Mortimer
I should start doing that.

Anyway, as I said before, I had to make the time signature 2/4, which
would make a whole note of four beats span two measures. I know it's
weird, but I started composing the piece on guitar and wound up having
trouble finding the right signature before finding that 2/4 worked
really well. Though now that I have a good portion of it down, I
should be able to come up with a better signature.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 1:31 PM, David Jones  wrote:
> Hmmm, I use only the notation editor. My understanding of notation is that a 
> whole note is a whole measure. So if I have a note to be held longer than a 
> measure (say 3), I put a whole note in each measure and tie them together. 
> Not make a dotted whole note to get a note that runs longer than a measure.
>
> Just my free contribution.
>
> David W. Jones
> gn...@hawaii.rr.com
> authenticity, honesty, community
> http://dancingtreefrog.comOn Apr 7, 2016 02:37, Lorenzo Sutton 
>  wrote:
>>
>> Hi!
>>
>> On 07/04/2016 00:27, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out
>> > longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after
>> > it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I
>> > could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I
>> > did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes
>> > sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again,
>> > it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like
>> > it's tied, but it's not shown that way.
>>
>> I think that's expected and software can't really help you there.
>>
>> I guess this is the basic concept and conundrum of sequencer which (like
>> rosegarden) also support notation: if the notation is 'perfect' from a
>> visual/typesetting point of view it will sound mechanical from a
>> performance point of view. The matrix editor (aka Piano Roll in some
>> software) enables you to tweak notes so that e.g. they result more
>> realistic but that will inevitably screw notation.
>>
>> Really, it's a conundrum in music itself. No one performs exactly what
>> is written on a score (some contemporary music can be an exception), so
>> imagine writing down on a score *exactly* what a performer is playing...
>>
>> Rosegarden actually does have some 'intelligence' when it comes to
>> interpreting notation (e.g. dynamics), but it cannot 'imagine' what you
>> would like especially in terms of note onsets and lengths.
>>
>> My recommendation would be to:
>> a.) use notation for:
>> 1. Inputting notes when you are familiar or more comfortable with
>> traditional notation.
>> 2. Want to concentrate on the notation aspects of your piece, e.g.
>> because you want to eventually publish it.
>>
>> b.) Use the matrix editor when:
>> 1. You want to concentrate on how your piece actually sounds.
>> 2. You become familiar enough with the matrix paradigm to be able to
>> input notes directly there.
>> 3. Adjust at the fine level not onsets, durations, velocities etc.
>>
>> To conclude, take into account that some sequencers simply do not
>> provide notation, so think of Rosegarden as a sequencer with a (very
>> advanced compared to many sequencers) support for notation  ;)
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>> Lorenzo.
>>
>> --
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting

2016-04-07 Thread Silas Mortimer
I appreciate it. And it sounds like the game is good, lol.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 10:55 AM, D. Michael McIntyre
 wrote:
> On 04/07/2016 10:44 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>
>> do that and then use shortcuts in LilyPond to "clean it up" visually?
>> To be specific, what I'm asking is if LilyPond has ways of easily
>> fixing problems like my first example.
>
> The LilyPond export engine is very much GIGO.  Garbage in, garbage out.
>   If the notation is a mess in Rosegarden, it will be even worse in
> LilyPond.
>
> I started playing a game and stayed up way past my bedtime,
> so I don't have time to look at your examples just now.  I recognize the
> kind of growing pains you are experiencing, and when I get time to
> reply, I should be able to help you.  Just hang in there, and I'll get
> back to you within 24 hours.
> --
> D. Michael McIntyre
>
> --
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting

2016-04-07 Thread Silas Mortimer
I did it again. Last time, Lorenzo, I promise.

So what I said:

Well, here's the problem: When I initially put the chord in, I made
the notes dotted whole notes, which made them span three measures.
And, now that I'm suddenly remembering what happened there, I
determined that a note BEFORE this chord needed to be longer, which
meant that I had to somehow move three measures worth of chord over to
start at the next measure. I realize that you can do this in the
matrix editor (in fact, that's the instance that drove me to look at
the matrix editor in the first place), but I was hoping to keep the
notation up with the piece as I went along, so I tried to do what I
could with the notation and wound up with what you see in the picture.

But THEN, something happened... I think maybe I had the erase tool
activated and forgot about that or something... I don't remember, but
whatever it was, either undoing didn't fix it or I didn't want to
undo. This removed the tie from that first half note to the quarter
note in the next measure. No problem, I figured, I can just select
them and tie them. Unfortunately, ever since then, it SHOWS the tie,
but it plays like it's not tied. Since I had worked out an earlier
problem (with this same chord) with the matrix editor, I tried that. I
get the same problem, though.

Might it be worth deleting the whole chord altogether and putting it
back in? At least in the matrix editor?

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Lorenzo Sutton
 wrote:
> On 07/04/2016 16:39, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>> Oh, geez. It's been a long time since I've used a mailing list and I
>> sent my reply to Lorenzo personally. Thanks for your patience,
>> Lorenzo.
>
> Happy to help new RG users, it's the least one can do.. ;)
>
>>
>> Okay, here's what I said in the reply:
>>
>> Oh, it definitely does help. It's not a showstopper by any means. I
>> asked all of this mainly because a) I'm new to composing this way and
>> b) I figured it was messing up because of something *I* was doing
>> wrong and that there might be a way to fix it that for some reason *I*
>> wasn't finding. The only implied failings here are mine, trust me. If
>> this is just how it is, I'm fine with that.
>>
>> Still, though, in that second example, even in the matrix editor, I
>> can't get the chord to ring out instead of sounding twice. What am I
>> doing wrong there?
>
> Do you mean notes spanning multiple measures? My experience is that the
> matrix editor doesn't always handle well tied notes... Try making tied
> notes into longer notes (just 'pull' them with the mouse to the right)?
>
> Or maybe I'm totally misunderstanding the issue.
>
> Lorenzo.
>
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting

2016-04-07 Thread D. Michael McIntyre
On 04/07/2016 10:44 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote:

> do that and then use shortcuts in LilyPond to "clean it up" visually?
> To be specific, what I'm asking is if LilyPond has ways of easily
> fixing problems like my first example.

The LilyPond export engine is very much GIGO.  Garbage in, garbage out. 
  If the notation is a mess in Rosegarden, it will be even worse in 
LilyPond.

I started playing a game and stayed up way past my bedtime, 
so I don't have time to look at your examples just now.  I recognize the 
kind of growing pains you are experiencing, and when I get time to 
reply, I should be able to help you.  Just hang in there, and I'll get 
back to you within 24 hours.
-- 
D. Michael McIntyre

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting

2016-04-07 Thread D. Michael McIntyre
On 04/07/2016 08:37 AM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:

> Rosegarden actually does have some 'intelligence' when it comes to
> interpreting notation (e.g. dynamics), but it cannot 'imagine' what you
> would like especially in terms of note onsets and lengths.

It also has totally separate durations and note timings for performance 
and notation purposes.  You can have something that plays swung but 
reads straight, for example.  You can have something that sounds like a 
bunch of weird multi-dotted notes interspersed with weird multi-dotted 
rests, yet reads very cleanly.

-- 
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting

2016-04-07 Thread Lorenzo Sutton
On 07/04/2016 16:39, Silas Mortimer wrote:
> Oh, geez. It's been a long time since I've used a mailing list and I
> sent my reply to Lorenzo personally. Thanks for your patience,
> Lorenzo.

Happy to help new RG users, it's the least one can do.. ;)

>
> Okay, here's what I said in the reply:
>
> Oh, it definitely does help. It's not a showstopper by any means. I
> asked all of this mainly because a) I'm new to composing this way and
> b) I figured it was messing up because of something *I* was doing
> wrong and that there might be a way to fix it that for some reason *I*
> wasn't finding. The only implied failings here are mine, trust me. If
> this is just how it is, I'm fine with that.
>
> Still, though, in that second example, even in the matrix editor, I
> can't get the chord to ring out instead of sounding twice. What am I
> doing wrong there?

Do you mean notes spanning multiple measures? My experience is that the 
matrix editor doesn't always handle well tied notes... Try making tied 
notes into longer notes (just 'pull' them with the mouse to the right)?

Or maybe I'm totally misunderstanding the issue.

Lorenzo.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting

2016-04-07 Thread Silas Mortimer
Yeah, I'm getting a better sense of the whole thing through this
thread. I like that it allows me to input notation as I find it a LOT
easier to think in that than the matrix editor, which, despite getting
the gist of it and being able to make modifications in it, I don't
fully understand yet.

Let me ask this, as I also don't have experience with things like
LilyPond: I think I saw that I can export to LilyPond, right? Could I
do that and then use shortcuts in LilyPond to "clean it up" visually?
To be specific, what I'm asking is if LilyPond has ways of easily
fixing problems like my first example.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 9:33 AM, David Tisdell  wrote:
> You could focus on how the piece sounds and when you have it the way you
> want, make a duplicate and clean it up from a notation point of view. For
> notation, I would just use a fermata where the matrix editor is messing with
> the notation.
> I love the fact that RG is a musical swiss army knife but that does, as
> Lorenzo pointed out, introduce trade offs. If you want the best out of the
> sequencer and the notation editor, I would make 2 files.
>
> Dave
>
> On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Silas Mortimer 
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi. I'm not only new to Rosegarden, I'm new to computer composing
>> beyond using guitarix/Hydrogen/Ardour for recording. I've been working
>> on a piece and learning bit by bit as I go along. Of course, this
>> means that I'm making a lot of mistakes as I go.
>>
>> The trouble winds up in the notation editor. By the time I'm done
>> fixing whatever needs to be fixed in what I previously did, the
>> notation is left looking terrible, lol. Not *really* the software's
>> fault, but I would think that there might be a way to, oh, I don't
>> know, hit a button or menu item that would reformat the entire thing
>> to be a little more elegant and/or make sense?
>>
>> What I'm currently writing is in 2/4 time, in the D melodic minor
>> scale. One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out
>> longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after
>> it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I
>> could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I
>> did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes
>> sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again,
>> it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like
>> it's tied, but it's not shown that way.
>>
>> Is there some way I can keep the music as it is, but discard and
>> regenerate the notation? I apologize for my ignorance here.
>>
>> I do love being able to do what I'm doing, though. This is a great
>> application.
>>
>>
>> --
>> ___
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>

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting

2016-04-07 Thread Silas Mortimer
Oh, geez. It's been a long time since I've used a mailing list and I
sent my reply to Lorenzo personally. Thanks for your patience,
Lorenzo.

Okay, here's what I said in the reply:

Oh, it definitely does help. It's not a showstopper by any means. I
asked all of this mainly because a) I'm new to composing this way and
b) I figured it was messing up because of something *I* was doing
wrong and that there might be a way to fix it that for some reason *I*
wasn't finding. The only implied failings here are mine, trust me. If
this is just how it is, I'm fine with that.

Still, though, in that second example, even in the matrix editor, I
can't get the chord to ring out instead of sounding twice. What am I
doing wrong there?

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 7:37 AM, Lorenzo Sutton  wrote:
> Hi!
>
> On 07/04/2016 00:27, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out
>> longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after
>> it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I
>> could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I
>> did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes
>> sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again,
>> it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like
>> it's tied, but it's not shown that way.
>
> I think that's expected and software can't really help you there.
>
> I guess this is the basic concept and conundrum of sequencer which (like
> rosegarden) also support notation: if the notation is 'perfect' from a
> visual/typesetting point of view it will sound mechanical from a
> performance point of view. The matrix editor (aka Piano Roll in some
> software) enables you to tweak notes so that e.g. they result more
> realistic but that will inevitably screw notation.
>
> Really, it's a conundrum in music itself. No one performs exactly what
> is written on a score (some contemporary music can be an exception), so
> imagine writing down on a score *exactly* what a performer is playing...
>
> Rosegarden actually does have some 'intelligence' when it comes to
> interpreting notation (e.g. dynamics), but it cannot 'imagine' what you
> would like especially in terms of note onsets and lengths.
>
> My recommendation would be to:
> a.) use notation for:
> 1. Inputting notes when you are familiar or more comfortable with
> traditional notation.
> 2. Want to concentrate on the notation aspects of your piece, e.g.
> because you want to eventually publish it.
>
> b.) Use the matrix editor when:
> 1. You want to concentrate on how your piece actually sounds.
> 2. You become familiar enough with the matrix paradigm to be able to
> input notes directly there.
> 3. Adjust at the fine level not onsets, durations, velocities etc.
>
> To conclude, take into account that some sequencers simply do not
> provide notation, so think of Rosegarden as a sequencer with a (very
> advanced compared to many sequencers) support for notation  ;)
>
> Hope this helps.
> Lorenzo.
>
> --
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting

2016-04-07 Thread David Tisdell
You could focus on how the piece sounds and when you have it the way you
want, make a duplicate and clean it up from a notation point of view. For
notation, I would just use a fermata where the matrix editor is messing
with the notation.
I love the fact that RG is a musical swiss army knife but that does, as
Lorenzo pointed out, introduce trade offs. If you want the best out of the
sequencer and the notation editor, I would make 2 files.

Dave

On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Silas Mortimer 
wrote:

> Hi. I'm not only new to Rosegarden, I'm new to computer composing
> beyond using guitarix/Hydrogen/Ardour for recording. I've been working
> on a piece and learning bit by bit as I go along. Of course, this
> means that I'm making a lot of mistakes as I go.
>
> The trouble winds up in the notation editor. By the time I'm done
> fixing whatever needs to be fixed in what I previously did, the
> notation is left looking terrible, lol. Not *really* the software's
> fault, but I would think that there might be a way to, oh, I don't
> know, hit a button or menu item that would reformat the entire thing
> to be a little more elegant and/or make sense?
>
> What I'm currently writing is in 2/4 time, in the D melodic minor
> scale. One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out
> longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after
> it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I
> could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I
> did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes
> sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again,
> it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like
> it's tied, but it's not shown that way.
>
> Is there some way I can keep the music as it is, but discard and
> regenerate the notation? I apologize for my ignorance here.
>
> I do love being able to do what I'm doing, though. This is a great
> application.
>
>
> --
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting

2016-04-07 Thread Lorenzo Sutton
Hi!

On 07/04/2016 00:27, Silas Mortimer wrote:

[...]

> One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out
> longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after
> it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I
> could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I
> did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes
> sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again,
> it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like
> it's tied, but it's not shown that way.

I think that's expected and software can't really help you there.

I guess this is the basic concept and conundrum of sequencer which (like 
rosegarden) also support notation: if the notation is 'perfect' from a 
visual/typesetting point of view it will sound mechanical from a 
performance point of view. The matrix editor (aka Piano Roll in some 
software) enables you to tweak notes so that e.g. they result more 
realistic but that will inevitably screw notation.

Really, it's a conundrum in music itself. No one performs exactly what 
is written on a score (some contemporary music can be an exception), so 
imagine writing down on a score *exactly* what a performer is playing...

Rosegarden actually does have some 'intelligence' when it comes to 
interpreting notation (e.g. dynamics), but it cannot 'imagine' what you 
would like especially in terms of note onsets and lengths.

My recommendation would be to:
a.) use notation for:
1. Inputting notes when you are familiar or more comfortable with 
traditional notation.
2. Want to concentrate on the notation aspects of your piece, e.g. 
because you want to eventually publish it.

b.) Use the matrix editor when:
1. You want to concentrate on how your piece actually sounds.
2. You become familiar enough with the matrix paradigm to be able to 
input notes directly there.
3. Adjust at the fine level not onsets, durations, velocities etc.

To conclude, take into account that some sequencers simply do not 
provide notation, so think of Rosegarden as a sequencer with a (very 
advanced compared to many sequencers) support for notation  ;)

Hope this helps.
Lorenzo.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting

2016-04-07 Thread D. Michael McIntyre
On 04/06/2016 06:27 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote:

> Is there some way I can keep the music as it is, but discard and
> regenerate the notation? I apologize for my ignorance here.

It seems to me the most productive way to deal with your questions would 
be for me to run through your composition with you, focusing on one 
specific problem at a time.  Find a bar you dislike, and I will show you 
what tools Rosegarden offers for dealing with those specific problems.

There will always be stuff to fiddle with, but once you gain experience 
the fiddling will go faster.  Rosegarden pretty much represents a 
compromise between how much hand work I have to keep doing due to a lack 
of features, and how long it would take me to develop the features, if I 
even could.  Dealing with a clunky Rosegarden eats a lot of time, but 
writing features eats a lot more time.  Features are expensive to develop.

Honestly, I haven't managed a good one in several years now.  I've 
started two or three ambitious projects that I just didn't have time to 
complete.
-- 
D. Michael McIntyre

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