Re: [Rosegarden-user] [Rosegarden-devel] Fwd: Rosegarden's Future

2012-05-18 Thread david
On 05/17/2012 12:33 PM, jimmy wrote:
 On 05/17/2012 02:26 AM, David Tisdell wrote:

 I hear you but as a music teacher and music software
 evangelist, it is
 huge when I can push an app that runs on multiple
 platforms to an
 education audience. I do all of my most important audio
 work in Linux

[snips]

 Different platforms will have multitude of problems relating to
 testing, different versions of libraries, drivers, software...

I use a panorama creator called Hugin. I use Debian Sid on 2 different
machines, identical distros, identical version of Hugin. On one machine,
Hugin works flawlessly. On the other, Hugin silently dies whenever I
attempt to preview a panorama. The difference? Display hardware! The one
where it works has NVidia video, the one where it crashes has Intel
video. Hugin is multiplatform (Linux, Windows, OS X) and has more
developers, but even they're having problems keeping the OS X release
up-to-date.

Sorry, doesn't help the problem of audio software and hardware. Have a
friend who has tried 3 different hardware systems and 2 different
versions of Windows (XP and 7) trying to get his commercial pro audio
software to work reliably. He's about given up.

I've had some success using live Linux audio distros like Musix on
different hardware (including one of the systems my friend's commercial
pro audio software had problems with). I think Musix is created by
educators, perhaps they could work with you to produce a live CD/DVD
that would allow students to boot their home computers and work and save
things onto a thumb drive that they could take back and forth between
home and school?

-- 
David
gn...@hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://clanjones.org/david/
http://dancing-treefrog.deviantart.com/

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] [Rosegarden-devel] Fwd: Rosegarden's Future

2012-05-17 Thread Luis Garrido
On 05/17/2012 02:26 AM, David Tisdell wrote:

 I hear you but as a music teacher and music software evangelist, it is
 huge when I can push an app that runs on multiple platforms to an
 education audience. I do all of my most important audio work in Linux


There's always the option of using one of the many audio-oriented live 
CD/USB, like AV Linux:

http://www.bandshed.net/AVLinux.html

Then you are evangelizing open source as a whole. That's what I use when 
I want to introduce someone to linux audio software.

That said, live CDs are not without problems, mainly related to hardware 
support: wifi interfaces, last generation video adapters or high-end 
audio interfaces may not work out of the box. But overall they are a 
good option.

HTH,

Luis


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Re: [Rosegarden-user] [Rosegarden-devel] Fwd: Rosegarden's Future

2012-05-17 Thread david
On 05/16/2012 08:54 PM, Luis Garrido wrote:
 On 05/17/2012 02:26 AM, David Tisdell wrote:

 I hear you but as a music teacher and music software evangelist, it is
 huge when I can push an app that runs on multiple platforms to an
 education audience. I do all of my most important audio work in Linux


 There's always the option of using one of the many audio-oriented live
 CD/USB, like AV Linux:

 http://www.bandshed.net/AVLinux.html

I prefer Musix 3 beta. Doesn't require PAE. PureDyne and dynebolic are 
still good, I think they've both been updated.

 Then you are evangelizing open source as a whole. That's what I use when
 I want to introduce someone to linux audio software.


-- 
David
gn...@hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
http://clanjones.org/david/
http://dancing-treefrog.deviantart.com/

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] [Rosegarden-devel] Fwd: Rosegarden's Future

2012-05-17 Thread jimmy
 On 05/17/2012 02:26 AM, David Tisdell wrote:
 
  I hear you but as a music teacher and music software
 evangelist, it is
  huge when I can push an app that runs on multiple
 platforms to an
  education audience. I do all of my most important audio
 work in Linux


I hear ya, but being short-handed as far as deverlopers to do the work, I think 
Rosegarden should concentrate on being solidly good at what it does, even 
just to maintain the current set of functionalities, rather than trying to do 
too much (multi-platform) and being mediocre at it.

People who don't program for complex software projects for a long time don't 
know the countless problems that software developers have to deal with.

Different platforms will have multitude of problems relating to testing, 
different versions of libraries, drivers, software...

Even different Linux distros, or within the same distro have different library 
versions and quirks of their own already (Debian stable, testing, unstable...)

Windows itself is not homogeneous as some marketing department wanted you to 
believe.  Have you experience the numerous printers, scanners... which won't 
work?  That's right, device drivers only work for specific releases of Windows 
(95, 98, Me, NT, 2000, XP, Vista, Win7, Win8).  Some won't even work for 
different editions of the same Windows release (home, pro, multi-media, 
enterprise...)  Some softwares may require specific service-pack or later for 
it to work, too.

Watch out for the horrendous performance interference from various 
anti-malware, anti-virus softwares.  Oh, yeah...  There are numerous malwares 
that the anti-malware and anti-virus stuff won't even detect properly, let 
alone clean up.

People who don't want to learn will readily make up all kind of excuses to 
avoid having to learn.  Wait until they start using Rosegaden and complain that 
it doesn't work like FruitLoops, Cubebase, GarageBand, or whatever...  The same 
way some people complain that LibreOffice, or OpenOffice doesn't look, or work 
like MS Office.  Those people are more troublesome than it's worth to try to 
convince, or convert.  Just let them go...  If and when they are ready, they 
will find a way.

Jimmy



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Re: [Rosegarden-user] [Rosegarden-devel] Fwd: Rosegarden's Future

2012-05-16 Thread Lorenzo Sutton
On 14/05/12 23:03, Chris Cannam wrote:
 On 13 May 2012 23:56, Cláudio Pinheirotaup...@gmail.com  wrote:
 Rosegarden needs broad visibility by potential users, so it can generate a
 critical mass that would attract developers that would maintain a sustained
 growth and (even) better codebase and documentation. To achieve it
 Rosegarden must walk the multiplatform path. It must be the top priority now
 for the future's greater good.

 I appreciate this argument, and thank you for articulating it well.
 But I'm afraid I just don't see the evidence in other applications
 that broadening your user base, by porting to other platforms with a
 smaller proportion of developers, helps a great deal with development
 effort.

I agree with Chris. I will add that now a days installing a Linux 
flavour is really easy, and personally Rosegarden (plus some other 
software) together with the improved easiness of installing Linux was 
the motive for me to get back to it and eventually switch, after hard 
times trying to get it to work at the end of the 1990s.
That's to say I would stick and focus to Linux, and who knows this may 
attract other users.

My two cents.
Lorenzo.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] [Rosegarden-devel] Fwd: Rosegarden's Future

2012-05-15 Thread D. Michael McIntyre
On Monday, May 14, 2012, Brett McCoy wrote:

 ... If you create Windows versions of applications originally developed on
 Linux, you have to do a lot of hand holding for those users to either help
 them compile stuff, or be prepared for loud complaining because the Windows
 support isn't as good as the Linux support (especially for development
 branches).

That's a perfect description of what we've already experienced some taste of 
with the Windows build.

 Unfortunately, I think this gives some Windows users the impression
 that the Linux developers are snobby, unhelpful and arrogant.

I'm sure it does.

For my part, it's some mixture of being totally ignorant of how to do anything 
on Windows, and totally unsympathetic to the Windows user who wants to whine 
about free-as-in-beer software.  They're running Windows!  All the best 
commercial stuff with years of professional development behind it is available 
for that platform.

If they're cheap, that's not my problem.  If they're broke, they should 
probably just switch to Linux, and their unwillingness to do that is not my 
problem.

So maybe I am unhelpful, snobby, and arrogant.  I just don't have any use for 
those people.  I dealt with a lot of them when I was a Linux crusader, and I 
fart in their general direction.
-- 
D. Michael McIntyre

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] [Rosegarden-devel] Fwd: Rosegarden's Future

2012-05-15 Thread Richard Bown
Ok well, I'm going to carry on occasionally merging from trunk as I wish and 
will pop out another Windows build at some point soon.  For the moment, and to 
make it easier for me to manage, I've created a page:

http://www.xyglo.com/rosegarden-for-windows/

I'll post announcements here and keep monitoring the usual lists but this is a 
bit easier for me.

R
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] [Rosegarden-devel] Fwd: Rosegarden's Future

2012-05-14 Thread Chris Cannam
On 13 May 2012 23:56, Cláudio Pinheiro taup...@gmail.com wrote:
 Rosegarden needs broad visibility by potential users, so it can generate a
 critical mass that would attract developers that would maintain a sustained
 growth and (even) better codebase and documentation. To achieve it
 Rosegarden must walk the multiplatform path. It must be the top priority now
 for the future's greater good.

I appreciate this argument, and thank you for articulating it well.
But I'm afraid I just don't see the evidence in other applications
that broadening your user base, by porting to other platforms with a
smaller proportion of developers, helps a great deal with development
effort.

I think that the difference between Mixxx and Rosegarden is something
else. It's focus. Mixxx has a very clear purpose, every developer has
pretty much the same focus, and every developer is able to exercise
that purpose very clearly in testing the application. So although
Mixxx has about the same number of active developers as Rosegarden,
they're able to pull it along more efficiently because it's a simpler
and smaller application with a much clearer goal.

Compare this with Audacity, perhaps the world's most widely-used audio
application -- inching along much like Rosegarden does, with a
similarly-sized developer team who spend most of their time
integrating occasional external contributions and trying to fix the
bugs those contributions bring in. Their wider user base gives them a
lot more tricky single-platform bug reports and causes years of delays
to stable releases. Or the Gimp, spending the last four years on a
bunch of changes finally released to a collective response of is that
_it_ for the last four years? (and I'm sympathetic, but it's true
that almost every change in Gimp 2.8 seems to make my life more
difficult instead of easier). Or Ardour, a fine application perhaps
unique among these in having had a developer working full time on it
for many years, but again with only two or three really active
developers and not an enormous amount of visibility. No, most of the
cross-platform projects are more like Rosegarden than like Mixxx.


Chris

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] [Rosegarden-devel] Fwd: Rosegarden's Future

2012-05-14 Thread Brett McCoy
On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 5:03 PM, Chris Cannam
can...@all-day-breakfast.com wrote:
 On 13 May 2012 23:56, Cláudio Pinheiro taup...@gmail.com wrote:
 Rosegarden needs broad visibility by potential users, so it can generate a
 critical mass that would attract developers that would maintain a sustained
 growth and (even) better codebase and documentation. To achieve it
 Rosegarden must walk the multiplatform path. It must be the top priority now
 for the future's greater good.

 I appreciate this argument, and thank you for articulating it well.
 But I'm afraid I just don't see the evidence in other applications
 that broadening your user base, by porting to other platforms with a
 smaller proportion of developers, helps a great deal with development
 effort.

One thing I have noticed in the development of digital painting
applications like MyPaint and Krita (two other of my favorite Linux
apps, along with Rosegarden  Ardour!), is that if you create Windows
versions of applications originally developed on Linux, you have to do
a lot of hand holding for those users to either help them compile
stuff, or be prepared for loud complaining because the Windows support
isn't as good as the Linux support (especially for development
branches). Windows users especially don't quite seem to get the open
source development model (all they see if free software that I don't
have to pirate!). Unless there are dedicated Windows developers to a
project, Windows support will flounder until someone gets around to
fixing bugs or building a new version (funny how the users who
complain the most don't seem to want to volunteer their time to help).
Unfortunately, I think this gives some Windows users the impression
that the Linux developers are snobby, unhelpful and arrogant.

BTW, I was happy to see the new Rosegarden announced in the latest KVR
newsletter today!

-- 
Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.brettwmccoy.com

In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it,
it would overturn the world.
    -- Jelaleddin Rumi

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