Re: [Rosegarden-user] Gruesome gotcha: Import MIDI

2019-02-28 Thread rhkramer
On Thursday, February 28, 2019 04:03:52 AM Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
> On 28/02/19 01:06, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 06:03:59 PM D. Michael McIntyre wrote:
> >> Open   - opens a native file
> > 
> > Ok
> > 
> >> Import - opens a non-native file
> > 
> > I don't like this -- the word import is not sufficiently intuitive for
> > the behavior -- if that has to stick (I'm not sure it does), then there
> > should be a warning dialog following selection of import, something like
> > "this will wipe out any existing music / information in the Rosegarden
> > buffer"
> 
> Honestly I'm not sure what the fuss is about... If I try to an "Import"
> with a non-saved file open Rosegarden *does* warn me: "The current file
> has been modified. Do you want to save it?" which I think is pretty
> standard behaviour. This is the same exact behaviour as trying to "Open"
> a file while there is an unsaved one.

Ok -- I reacted without having tried the import -- a warning like that should 
do the job.


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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Gruesome gotcha: Import MIDI

2019-02-28 Thread Lorenzo Sutton

On 28/02/19 01:06, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 06:03:59 PM D. Michael McIntyre wrote:

Open   - opens a native file


Ok


Import - opens a non-native file


I don't like this -- the word import is not sufficiently intuitive for the
behavior -- if that has to stick (I'm not sure it does), then there should be
a warning dialog following selection of import, something like "this will wipe
out any existing music / information in the Rosegarden buffer"


Honestly I'm not sure what the fuss is about... If I try to an "Import" 
with a non-saved file open Rosegarden *does* warn me: "The current file 
has been modified. Do you want to save it?" which I think is pretty 
standard behaviour. This is the same exact behaviour as trying to "Open" 
a file while there is an unsaved one.


I understand the OPs frustration about losing unsaved work. This kind of 
erro happens all the time and has happened to me many times in my 
'digital life' (including losing data because I erroneously deleted 
un-backed-up files), but honestly blaming Rosegarden for this seems a 
little unfair ;)


My two cents.
Lorenzo.


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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Gruesome gotcha: Import MIDI

2019-02-27 Thread rhkramer
On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 06:03:59 PM D. Michael McIntyre wrote:
> Open   - opens a native file

Ok

> Import - opens a non-native file

I don't like this -- the word import is not sufficiently intuitive for the 
behavior -- if that has to stick (I'm not sure it does), then there should be 
a warning dialog following selection of import, something like "this will wipe 
out any existing music / information in the Rosegarden buffer"

> Merge  - merges any supported file into the current composition

Ok

> We debated the nomenclature years ago, and this is what stuck.

I'm not the op, but, obviously, it was not intuitive for him, resulting in 
work / data loss.  Something should be improved.


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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Gruesome gotcha: Import MIDI

2019-02-27 Thread D. Michael McIntyre

Open   - opens a native file
Import - opens a non-native file
Merge  - merges any supported file into the current composition

We debated the nomenclature years ago, and this is what stuck.

--
D. Michael McIntyre


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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Gruesome gotcha: Import MIDI

2019-02-25 Thread rhkramer
On Monday, February 25, 2019 04:32:57 PM Al Thompson wrote:
> On 2/25/2019 10:56 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, February 25, 2019 08:27:56 AM msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
> >> On Mon, 25 Feb 2019, Håkan Söderström via Rosegarden-user wrote:
> >>> I make this note while still a beginner: Rosegarden would need a
> >>> terminology overhaul in order not to trip up new users completely.
> >>> 
> >>> "Import MIDI" really means: "New session based on MIDI file". It scraps
> >>> whatever you did before importing, warning that "File has not been
> >>> saved". "File"? It's the session that's not saved. Rosegarden needs to
> >>> be consistent
> >> 
> >> I strongly disagree.
> > 
> > I am not the OP, but you confused at least me.  I think you (strongly)
> > agree that "Import MIDI" is a bad name, you don't like the proposed new
> > name, but I had to do a lot of "gratuitous" reading to figure that out.
> 
> Yeah, I had to really parse through that too.  I think that "import
> MIDI" is fine, because "to import" means to bring in from somewhere
> else, and it also implies that it's going to import it into what you are
> currently working on, rather than delete it or close your current
> project.  

Yes, but note that the OP said that the import MIDI "scraps whatever you did 
before importing" -- that's not what I would expect from an import -- the 
import should be merged with whatever you did before then (imho).




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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Gruesome gotcha: Import MIDI

2019-02-25 Thread Al Thompson

On 2/25/2019 10:56 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, February 25, 2019 08:27:56 AM msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:

On Mon, 25 Feb 2019, Håkan Söderström via Rosegarden-user wrote:

I make this note while still a beginner: Rosegarden would need a
terminology overhaul in order not to trip up new users completely.

"Import MIDI" really means: "New session based on MIDI file". It scraps
whatever you did before importing, warning that "File has not been
saved". "File"? It's the session that's not saved. Rosegarden needs to
be consistent

I strongly disagree.

I am not the OP, but you confused at least me.  I think you (strongly) agree
that "Import MIDI" is a bad name, you don't like the proposed new name, but I
had to do a lot of "gratuitous" reading to figure that out.

Yeah, I had to really parse through that too.  I think that "import 
MIDI" is fine, because "to import" means to bring in from somewhere 
else, and it also implies that it's going to import it into what you are 
currently working on, rather than delete it or close your current 
project.  Almost any other wording would, to me, imply that the current 
session would be closed or deleted.



As for the wording of "session" vs "file," there are plenty of programs 
that open "documents," "databases," "songs," or whatever.



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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Gruesome gotcha: Import MIDI

2019-02-25 Thread mskala
On Mon, 25 Feb 2019, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am not the OP, but you confused at least me.  I think you (strongly) agree
> that "Import MIDI" is a bad name, you don't like the proposed new name, but I
> had to do a lot of "gratuitous" reading to figure that out.

My main point has to do with using the concept of a "session" separate
from a file.  I think Rosegarden shouldn't.

-- 
Matthew Skala
msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca People before tribes.
https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/


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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Gruesome gotcha: Import MIDI

2019-02-25 Thread rhkramer
On Monday, February 25, 2019 08:27:56 AM msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Feb 2019, Håkan Söderström via Rosegarden-user wrote:
> > I make this note while still a beginner: Rosegarden would need a
> > terminology overhaul in order not to trip up new users completely.
> > 
> > "Import MIDI" really means: "New session based on MIDI file". It scraps
> > whatever you did before importing, warning that "File has not been
> > saved". "File"? It's the session that's not saved. Rosegarden needs to
> > be consistent
> 
> I strongly disagree. 

I am not the OP, but you confused at least me.  I think you (strongly) agree 
that "Import MIDI" is a bad name, you don't like the proposed new name, but I 
had to do a lot of "gratuitous" reading to figure that out.


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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Gruesome gotcha: Import MIDI

2019-02-25 Thread mskala
On Mon, 25 Feb 2019, Håkan Söderström via Rosegarden-user wrote:
> I make this note while still a beginner: Rosegarden would need a terminology
> overhaul in order not to trip up new users completely.
>
> "Import MIDI" really means: "New session based on MIDI file". It scraps
> whatever you did before importing, warning that "File has not been saved".
> "File"? It's the session that's not saved. Rosegarden needs to be consistent

I strongly disagree.  Rosegarden is an application on my desktop.  What
applications do is they open files, edit files, and then save files.
That is how my word processor, my spreadsheet, and everything else on my
desktop work or should work.  If I start up an application I've never
tried before and it wants me to define a "project" or a "session" or
something instead of a new file, then I'm put on notice:  I'm dealing with
software that is going to defy the basic expectations of how applications
work, and it's going to be - gratuitously - hard for me to adapt to using
it.  Applications that don't adopt the standard model of editing files are
hostile applications.  Anything that wants to use "sessions" or "projects"
or something instead of just opening and closing files had better have a
very good reason for demanding a nonstandard interaction model, and in
practice, the reason is never good enough.

Now, when I open a file, I want it to replace whatever was opened before,
or else be in a new and separate window that I can edit independently.  I
do *not* want to merge it with data I was already working on.  The
operation to merge should be called "merge," not "open."  As for "import,"
I'd rather not have that at all - it means bring something in from a
foreign place, i.e. a format that the software does not really support
properly, and I wish the software *would* support a format like MIDI
properly and load it with the regular "open" instead of needing a separate
"import."  But if there does have to be a separate "import" for something
that needs to be really foreign, I still want it to function to the extent
possible as opening a new file, not to somehow mix the file I'm opening
with something that was open before.

Many frustrations of using Rosegarden come from state carried over from
previously-edited files into newly opened files, and that because the
software was trying to use a different concept of a "session" bigger than
and sepaarate from a file. A new file should be new.

For the specific case of adding tracks to a file from another file that
happens to be in a foreign format, I've seen other software use the term
"Import as new track."  That sounds a little unnatural, but so is the
operation it describes, and it's clearer and less surprising than just
calling such an operation "import."

--
Matthew Skala
msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca People before tribes.
https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/___
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[Rosegarden-user] Gruesome gotcha: Import MIDI

2019-02-25 Thread Håkan Söderström via Rosegarden-user
I make this note while still a beginner: Rosegarden would need a terminology 
overhaul in order not to trip up new users completely.
"Import MIDI" really means: "New session based on MIDI file". It scraps 
whatever you did before importing, warning that "File has not been saved". 
"File"? It's the session that's not saved. Rosegarden needs to be consistent 
about what I'm doing right now. Am I doing a "file"? Am I doing a 
"composition"? Or am I doing a "session" or "project"? Pick one (except "file") 
and stick to it. Whatever it is, of course it is ultimately stored in a file, 
but a file is just a container for anything.
"Merge MIDI" means "Add MIDI file to track". This is what many people would 
call "Import MIDI".
After these initial bumps I find Rosegarden has many pleasant features for 
working productively with MIDI.___
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