Re: [Rosegarden-user] Rosegarden still to 'aggressive' in sending Bank and Program changes?

2020-05-18 Thread Lorenzo Sutton

On 18/05/20 16:55, Richard Bown wrote:
On Sun, 17 May 2020 at 14:37, Ted Felix > wrote:


On 5/17/20 5:43 AM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
 > Rosegarden sends a Bank selection (CC 0 + CC 32) and Program change
 > every single time playback starts from the beginning (i.e.
measure 1,
 > and this includes if you are looping with a measure which includes
 > measure 1).

    I was waiting for someone to complain about this.  Now that CCs are
sorted, this needs to be looked at next.

    Please open a feature request and copy your message into it.

    Should be able to get this done for 20.12.


I agree that this feature makes no sense as a default and that a change 
is long overdue! I also like the suggestion of making it a (very 
visible) option.  If I'm not stating the obvious it might be useful to 
know why this 'feature' came about in the first place.  I was using a 
lot of VST instruments and soft synths for testing at the time and of 
course these wouldn't save their own state so this default was a 
workaround for that behaviour and probably always should have been an 
option... I think the role of the DAW has also changed a bit in the 
intervening years, rather than aiming always to use it as a single point 
of truth, a lot of connected equipment now has opinions and 
connectivity, plain and simple, is more important than anything else.  
This also makes me wonder again about JACK midi of course but that's 
another story :)


Thanks, that's a very interesting angle.

Maybe one thing I overlooked in my original email and in the feature 
request is that (of course), Rosegarden _should_ also transmit those 
when a file is opened! I guess that would cover that scenario?


Lorenzo



R


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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Rosegarden still to 'aggressive' in sending Bank and Program changes?

2020-05-18 Thread Richard Bown
On Sun, 17 May 2020 at 14:37, Ted Felix  wrote:

> On 5/17/20 5:43 AM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
> > Rosegarden sends a Bank selection (CC 0 + CC 32) and Program change
> > every single time playback starts from the beginning (i.e. measure 1,
> > and this includes if you are looping with a measure which includes
> > measure 1).
>
>I was waiting for someone to complain about this.  Now that CCs are
> sorted, this needs to be looked at next.
>
>Please open a feature request and copy your message into it.
>
>Should be able to get this done for 20.12.
>

I agree that this feature makes no sense as a default and that a change is
long overdue! I also like the suggestion of making it a (very visible)
option.  If I'm not stating the obvious it might be useful to know why this
'feature' came about in the first place.  I was using a lot of VST
instruments and soft synths for testing at the time and of course these
wouldn't save their own state so this default was a workaround for that
behaviour and probably always should have been an option... I think the
role of the DAW has also changed a bit in the intervening years, rather
than aiming always to use it as a single point of truth, a lot of connected
equipment now has opinions and connectivity, plain and simple, is more
important than anything else.  This also makes me wonder again about JACK
midi of course but that's another story :)

R
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Rosegarden still to 'aggressive' in sending Bank and Program changes?

2020-05-18 Thread Lorenzo Sutton

On 17/05/20 14:37, Ted Felix wrote:

On 5/17/20 7:46 AM, r...@hydrophones.com wrote:

I agree.


   Lorenzo will be opening a feature request for this.  Be sure to vote 
for it or chime in in the comments.


Done! It's here:

https://sourceforge.net/p/rosegarden/feature-requests/483/

Lorenzo


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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Rosegarden still to 'aggressive' in sending Bank and Program changes?

2020-05-18 Thread Ted Felix

On 5/17/20 10:59 PM, r...@hydrophones.com wrote:

I'd like to do that but the Sourceforge platform will not let me register
or login -- it is seriously unfriendly, at least to this Linux user.


  That's strange.  It's always been really easy to work with in the 
past.  Maybe they are doing maintenance or something?  It does act funny 
every now and then.


Ted.


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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Rosegarden still to 'aggressive' in sending Bank and Program changes?

2020-05-17 Thread ram
Hi Ted,

I'd like to do that but the Sourceforge platform will not let me register
or login -- it is seriously unfriendly, at least to this Linux user.



> On 5/17/20 7:46 AM, r...@hydrophones.com wrote:
>> I agree.
>
>Lorenzo will be opening a feature request for this.  Be sure to vote
> for it or chime in in the comments.
>
> Ted.
>
>
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Rosegarden still to 'aggressive' in sending Bank and Program changes?

2020-05-17 Thread Ted Felix

On 5/17/20 7:46 AM, r...@hydrophones.com wrote:

I agree.


  Lorenzo will be opening a feature request for this.  Be sure to vote 
for it or chime in in the comments.


Ted.


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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Rosegarden still to 'aggressive' in sending Bank and Program changes?

2020-05-17 Thread Ted Felix

On 5/17/20 5:43 AM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
Rosegarden sends a Bank selection (CC 0 + CC 32) and Program change 
every single time playback starts from the beginning (i.e. measure 1, 
and this includes if you are looping with a measure which includes 
measure 1).


  I was waiting for someone to complain about this.  Now that CCs are 
sorted, this needs to be looked at next.


  Please open a feature request and copy your message into it.

  Should be able to get this done for 20.12.

Ted.


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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Rosegarden still to 'aggressive' in sending Bank and Program changes?

2020-05-17 Thread ram
I agree.



> Rosegarden sends a Bank selection (CC 0 + CC 32) and Program change
> every single time playback starts from the beginning (i.e. measure 1,
> and this includes if you are looping with a measure which includes
> measure 1).
>
> This _can_ be disabled by deselecting Bank and Program checkboxes in the
> Instrument Parameters pane. But..
>
> I think this behaviour is still a bit too 'aggressive'. An example is
> using Rosegarden with Yoshimi where yoshimi is set-up to react to MSB
> and program changes. If the bank and program change are on, and you have
> a note on the very first beat the note is effectivelycut off. I'm
> assuming this is because Yoshimi (but this could apply to any other
> synth) is 'doing stuff' each time it needs to set-up a new
> bank/instrument.
>
> Anyway, why does the sequencer need to send program change at each
> playback restart? My experience with both hardware and soft synths is
> that  typically a synth/sound generator sets the program for the channel
> and then retains it _unless_ it is changed. I am not aware of a synth
> were bank/program set-up is directly related to position zero (plus most
> synths don't even know anything about (position) time??)
>
> Now, we know that program changes can also be embedded in a track as an
> event (this was quite common with midi files in the day when you had
> harder limits on numbers of tracks and midi channels), but still I think
> if whoever made the midi track is embedding program changes in the
> events (segments to use the rosegarden terminology) they should take
> care (if needed) to embed the first program they want at position 0 in
> their track(s).
>
> If I'm setting the program in the dropdowns I probably want to retain
> that program throughout the track and piece.
>
> So my proposal would be that Rosegarden only changes bank program
> changes if:
> - They are selected in the pane (this is currently already like this,
> good!)
> - The user changes them explicitly from the Instrument parameter
> dropdowns (then a synth should 'remember' and keep that setting until
> there is another change)
> - A program change is explicitly in the track/segment
>
> The fact that a program change is being re-sent at each restart is a bit
> of an unexpected and 'hidden' behaviour which IMHO creates more
> confusion than benefit as it stands.
>
> A compromise could be to have a new option to 'Always send Bank /
> Program changes when playback is restarted' in the options for users who
> are really fond of this feature? :)
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
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[Rosegarden-user] Rosegarden still to 'aggressive' in sending Bank and Program changes?

2020-05-17 Thread Lorenzo Sutton
Rosegarden sends a Bank selection (CC 0 + CC 32) and Program change 
every single time playback starts from the beginning (i.e. measure 1, 
and this includes if you are looping with a measure which includes 
measure 1).


This _can_ be disabled by deselecting Bank and Program checkboxes in the 
Instrument Parameters pane. But..


I think this behaviour is still a bit too 'aggressive'. An example is 
using Rosegarden with Yoshimi where yoshimi is set-up to react to MSB 
and program changes. If the bank and program change are on, and you have 
a note on the very first beat the note is effectivelycut off. I'm 
assuming this is because Yoshimi (but this could apply to any other 
synth) is 'doing stuff' each time it needs to set-up a new bank/instrument.


Anyway, why does the sequencer need to send program change at each 
playback restart? My experience with both hardware and soft synths is 
that  typically a synth/sound generator sets the program for the channel 
and then retains it _unless_ it is changed. I am not aware of a synth 
were bank/program set-up is directly related to position zero (plus most 
synths don't even know anything about (position) time??)


Now, we know that program changes can also be embedded in a track as an 
event (this was quite common with midi files in the day when you had 
harder limits on numbers of tracks and midi channels), but still I think 
if whoever made the midi track is embedding program changes in the 
events (segments to use the rosegarden terminology) they should take 
care (if needed) to embed the first program they want at position 0 in 
their track(s).


If I'm setting the program in the dropdowns I probably want to retain 
that program throughout the track and piece.


So my proposal would be that Rosegarden only changes bank program 
changes if:

- They are selected in the pane (this is currently already like this, good!)
- The user changes them explicitly from the Instrument parameter 
dropdowns (then a synth should 'remember' and keep that setting until 
there is another change)

- A program change is explicitly in the track/segment

The fact that a program change is being re-sent at each restart is a bit 
of an unexpected and 'hidden' behaviour which IMHO creates more 
confusion than benefit as it stands.


A compromise could be to have a new option to 'Always send Bank / 
Program changes when playback is restarted' in the options for users who 
are really fond of this feature? :)


Lorenzo


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