Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-09-04 Thread david
On 09/04/2012 08:53 AM, Tim Munro wrote:
 david wrote:
 Yup. I'm not developer. Wouldn't that happen with the shift to 32-bit,
 anyway?

 You'd think so.  Got lucky I guess.

 Tim

Or maybe it was a change in compiler?

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-09-03 Thread david
On 09/02/2012 05:04 AM, Tim Munro wrote:
 david wrote:
 So you add ANOTHER DRIVE to the system That's what I do.

 Yes, I could have picked up an old drive somewhere and stuffed it into
 the box.  I even considered picking up an IDE to SATA adapter so that I
 could attempt to use a newer drive, but the bottom line was that the
 machine itself was hopelessly out of date.  A 550MHz Pentium III
 processor with 256M of ram (apparently HP's upper limit for that
 motherboard) is hardly sound-barrier stuff these days.  Rather than
 pouring more money into a lost cause, I decided to upgrade.

That makes sense. Also, I tried a set of IDESATA adapters. They didn't 
work.

 Didn't have to modify any apps to run on 64-bit. Which apps are you
 talking about?

 The first example that comes to mind is an obscure program called
 Rosegarden and how it deals with library paths.  On a Slackware
 system, 32-bit stuff typically goes into /usr/lib, while 64-bit stuff
 ends up in /usr/lib64.  Because I had built and installed DSSI and
 LADSPA from source, they ended up in the 64-bit library where
 Rosegarden couldn't find them.  My initial workaround was to place
 symlinks in the 32-bit library, but eventually I got around to patching
 src/sound/DSSIPluginFactory.cpp and src/sound/LADSPAPluginFactory.cpp
 with more complete path info.

I run Rosegarden on my 32-bit and 64-bit Debian systems and never had to 
change anything. But I didn't build DSSI or LADSPA from source. Didn't 
have to.

 Other programs that needed adjustment were mostly things that I had
 written years ago that contained snippets of truly ancient code.  Back
 in the 16-bit days, for instance, we made assumptions about the size of
 an int that are no longer valid.

Yup. I'm not developer. Wouldn't that happen with the shift to 32-bit, 
anyway?

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-09-02 Thread k-12
Tim Munro wrote:

 A time lag frequently exists between the introduction of new 
 hardware and the availability of suitable Linux drivers.  And 
 even when these drivers or kernel patches become available, a
 significant time lag can exist before the changes make it into 
 a distribution.  Especially one as conservative as Slackware, 
 my personal favorite.

Last year I struggled with taming an Asus-g73sw laptop: I too 
started by wiping the bundlecrap off the disk and installing 
about half a dozen linux distros on it, and windows-7 but then 
that was it for windows, XP could NOT be installed. On the other
hand the backlit keyboard works only under windows. It isn't 
just linux that throws fits when you have to move up. As for 
KDE4, yeah, eyecandy puke but I got it working now and just 
don't use any feature I don't like. I can't call it inferior 
to KDE3 even if I had to let go a couple of favorite features.  

The short of the long is that any major software or hardware 
move requires a good year to beat into shape.


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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-09-02 Thread Tim Munro
david wrote:
  So you add ANOTHER DRIVE to the system That's what I do.

Yes, I could have picked up an old drive somewhere and stuffed it into
the box.  I even considered picking up an IDE to SATA adapter so that I
could attempt to use a newer drive, but the bottom line was that the
machine itself was hopelessly out of date.  A 550MHz Pentium III
processor with 256M of ram (apparently HP's upper limit for that
motherboard) is hardly sound-barrier stuff these days.  Rather than
pouring more money into a lost cause, I decided to upgrade.

  Didn't have to modify any apps to run on 64-bit. Which apps are you
  talking about?

The first example that comes to mind is an obscure program called
Rosegarden and how it deals with library paths.  On a Slackware
system, 32-bit stuff typically goes into /usr/lib, while 64-bit stuff
ends up in /usr/lib64.  Because I had built and installed DSSI and
LADSPA from source, they ended up in the 64-bit library where
Rosegarden couldn't find them.  My initial workaround was to place
symlinks in the 32-bit library, but eventually I got around to patching
src/sound/DSSIPluginFactory.cpp and src/sound/LADSPAPluginFactory.cpp
with more complete path info.

Other programs that needed adjustment were mostly things that I had
written years ago that contained snippets of truly ancient code.  Back
in the 16-bit days, for instance, we made assumptions about the size of
an int that are no longer valid.

Tim

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-31 Thread D. Michael McIntyre
On 08/30/2012 09:25 AM, John wrote:

 Let us assume you do win the lottery and lets also assume that the acquired 
 riches have not spoiled you completely and that you are still interested in 
 using computers.
 What operating system would you use?

If I had unlimited money to pour down the well to pay for what I'd most 
prefer to use, I genuinely think I'd most prefer to use pretty much all 
the stuff I'm already using.  What I'd change about it is I would have 
this stuff do what it's supposed to do, instead of what it wanted to do 
but couldn't quite pull off.

Now that I think about it some more though, I'm not sure there's enough 
money in a good sized lottery pot to actually pay for all that.  Maybe.

Let's take Linux audio, for example.  The first thing we have to do is 
take ALSA, OSS, JACK, PulseAudio, GStreamer, and everything else you can 
think off off the top of your head, gather all of that up and shove it 
right down the garbage disposer.  Linux audio is just about the most 
ludicrous example of design by committee I can think of.

See obligatory xkcd cartoon: http://xkcd.com/927/

I have no idea what to replace it with.  That's why I'll pay millions to 
some genius to get it done.  It has to be possible, but the route to 
achieving it sure as hell hasn't been discovered.  Linux audio is always 
a nightmare.  Sometimes the fire-breathing dragons actually go to sleep 
and leave you in peace, but they just get replaced by man-sized 
scorpions and spiders, and if you vanquish those foes, there will be 
giant flying sharks that shoot lasers, or legions of zombie warriors. 
The best I can ever achieve in my years-long battle with Linux audio is 
a temporary, short-lived truce.

I don't know, man.  Really, when I think about it fairly, Windows has 
just about as many problems as we do with audio, and if OS-X doesn't, 
it's only because the hardware ecosystem OS-X is expected to function 
with is extremely narrow and limited.

I guess the problem ain't just Linux, it's these damned computational 
machine box things generally.  They say they're supposed to do stuff, 
and there are even books telling you what to expect them to do, but in 
practice, they fail to perform so often, and year after year, decade 
after decade, the problems never really go away and stay gone.

There are happy moments, little islands of stability where everything 
works flawlessly, and life is good, but these moments are always temporary.

Sigh.  Maybe I'm just fed up with computers.  I never made a living with 
these damn things anyway.  I tried everything I could think of, went out 
of business three times without turning a profit, and here I am hauling 
gasoline for a living.

Where one of the most annoying things about my job is all the problems 
caused by the DAMNED COMPUTERS.  Because the software is completely full 
of bugs, and they only ever get fixed at the expense of creating new 
bugs somewhere else.

Maybe I should invest that lottery pot in a desert island instead.

-- 
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-30 Thread david
On 08/29/2012 09:13 PM, Chris Cannam wrote:
 On 29 August 2012 23:26, Richard Bownrichard.b...@ferventsoftware.com  
 wrote:
 It's a fucking operating system.  Get over it.

 There's just no poetry in you.

Clearly he needs to read the award-winning book, The Soul of a New 
Machine.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-30 Thread D. Michael McIntyre
On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 10:14:30 PM Chris Cannam wrote:

 I think the root of Michael's problem is that he feels stuck with this
 one operating system -- whether for financial reasons or because of a
 gloomy expectation that nothing else is going to work for him either.
 So he hasn't had the opportunity either to decide to let it go, or to
 relish the good things about it.

I'm stuck with the one operating system because it's marginally less 
unpleasant to deal with and/or more fun to use than everything else, I guess.

I'm just so used to all of this by now.  I've used Linux longer than I used 
any other operating system.

I still love the idea of it, but I'm really tired of the terrible 
implementation.

It's nothing a few million dollars couldn't fix.  Maybe I'll win the lottery.
-- 
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-30 Thread Lorenzo Sutton
On 30/08/12 12:24, D. Michael McIntyre wrote:
 On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 10:14:30 PM Chris Cannam wrote:


 It's nothing a few million dollars couldn't fix.  Maybe I'll win the lottery.
In that case do save a few bucks for Rosegarden as well :D

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-30 Thread D. Michael McIntyre
On 08/29/2012 05:14 PM, Chris Cannam wrote:
 I'm not sure there is such a simple dichotomy, though. It has so much 
 to do with temperament and perspective.
Indeed.  Rosegarden is a perfect example.  If I could go spend, say, 
$500 once for something that did everything Rosegarden wants to do, and 
behaved in a pretty similar way all around, then I probably would have 
parted with that cash years ago.  The problem is you can spend a lot 
more than $500 for two or three different applications that don't even 
communicate with each other, don't share data amongst themselves, etc.  
Not only do you not get the Rosegarden that works that you pay for, you 
don't pay for it once.  Oh no no.

I was still using a version of Cakewalk that only understood 8.3 
filenames all the way to 2001.  I paid for it once in 1993 or something, 
and I was damn well going to keep using it forever.

That's the great thing about FOSS.  Free updates for life.  You don't 
pay once, you don't pay ever, and the updates just keep flowing.

The crappy thing about FOSS is that that old version from 10 years ago 
that worked perfectly will no longer compile on a modern system.  Just 
look at all the hell we went through keeping Rosegarden alive through 
the Qt 4 nightmare.  This means that whether you do it today or next 
month or a couple of years from now, sooner or later you're going to 
have to upgrade your entire system from top to bottom.

When you do, you may break half the world.  Or at least break the most 
important application you use every day.

When that happens, there's just no good answer.  Can I pay money for a 
KMail that actually works, and doesn't break the continuity of 11 years 
of the same ~/Mail folder?  Apparently not.  Whether I pay money or not, 
I'm still just shit out of luck on that front. Thanks, KMail developers, 
for completely destroying an application I've been using at least a 
dozen times a day for 11 years.  Even though I'm a developer and I well 
understand how hard this whole game is, I'm more than half tempted to go 
create a KDE bugs account for the sole purpose of extending them a big 
fuck you.

It wouldn't be productive at all, or fair, but it might be cathartic.

Bitter?  Not me.  No, never.

We'll see how Thunderbird fares.  I have deep concerns that this message 
is going to come out in HTML.  If so, I apologize.  I'll figure it out 
in due course.  It looks like this is my KMail replacement, and it's a 
huge improvement so far, because I can actually click on a message and 
read it any time I want.  Plus, it's not webmail.  I detest webmail.

/rant
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-30 Thread D. Michael McIntyre
On 08/29/2012 08:06 PM, jimmy wrote:
 Rosegarden, Lilypond probably can't be compare to the well polished 
 professional apps out there.
The hell of it is that I was at a point a few years ago when I was more 
than willing to shell out some cash for Finale or Sibelius or something, 
something professional, something real.  I did some experiments with 
Rosegarden vs. Everything Else, including MusE Score and a few other 
random things.

What sucks is that Rosegarden won hands down for taking some random MIDI 
file and generating something approaching usable notation from it.  
Hands down.  None of the rest of them could remotely compare, and they 
all made a complete ruin of my test.

If it hadn't been for that, I'd have been free of this thing years ago.  
Unfortunately, that's something I actually do (or did, when I still had 
free time for music) with considerable frequency, and something 
Rosegarden does particularly well.

It sucks.  Continuing to slog it out with this thing really isn't all 
that pointless, it turns out.
-- 
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-30 Thread Jonathan Herz
Thanks Ahmet. This prompts me to write as an appreciative user. It is so
much easier to write about what is irritating than what is pleasing, but
what is pleasing is worth as much ink.
I am solidly on the recipient end of the spectrum. I am a mechanical
engineer with as little knowledge of coding as I can get away with. So I
can't even say that I feel guilty for not contributing expertise, I have
none to offer. 
But I do use Rosegarden in my work. It is an valuable tool for what I
do. I made as big a $$ contribution to the project as I have made to any
FOSS project and I still spent a fraction of what a commercial program
would have cost. I spent a year waffling back and forth between
Rosegarden and Cakewalk before figuring out how to do everything I
wanted on RG and giving up on Cakewalk. If RG had cost $500 I would
never have had that year to tinker with it before committing to it, the
30 day trial would have expired and I would be left needing to spend a
lot of money on a program I was not yet certain about. This is a side
issue to the whole OS debate (I use XFCE on Ubuntu Studio. It works well
and I am glad to sidestep the whole Unity/ Gnome3 debacle) but it does
speak to the advantages of working in the FOSS environment.
Thanks to everyone who works on the software I use. I may abandon
Ubuntu at some point but I will be sticking with Linux for good.

Jonathan Herz
www.herzmusicbox.com


On Thu, 2012-08-30 at 07:24 +0300, Ahmet Öztürk wrote:
 
  I prefer to pay in real money
 and not by time spent to make programs work.
 
 This is your decision but do not forget that freedom comes at a price. It can 
 be paid by actively coding (whole apps or just patches), or by investing some 
 time for making things work, or many other ways. You may choose not to pay 
 this price or think that you cannot afford it. But please, oh please refrain 
 from blaming developers for it. Developers work to the best of their 
 abilities without usually being paid at all and when their efforts fall short 
 in some fronts against some major companies' products, they are the ones to 
 pay yet another price by answering endless unfair accusations of the 
 community.
 
 Ahmet
 
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-30 Thread S. Christian Collins
On 08/30/2012 07:27 AM, Richard Bown wrote:
 On 30 Aug 2012, at 09:13, Chris Cannam can...@all-day-breakfast.com wrote:
 There's just no poetry in you.
 Ok, this is your fault.

 http://masticate.com/2012/08/30/ode-to-a-preemptive-multitasking-kernel/
YES  That was awesome.  Now we just need a haiku about Haiku ;)

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-30 Thread S. Christian Collins
FWIW, I have been using Thunderbird for years as my e-mail client of
choice, and it has never let me down.  I've got seven e-mail accounts
coming into it, using Lightning for my calendar (synced up with multiple
Google calendars).  I've got tons of stored e-mails all the way back to
1999 and all of this running off of an encrypted flash drive so I can
move it between my PC and my laptop.  Thunderbird may look kinda ugly in
KDE compared to Kmail, but it's all about the functionality for me.

-~Chris

On 08/30/2012 06:39 AM, D. Michael McIntyre wrote:
 On 08/29/2012 05:14 PM, Chris Cannam wrote:
 I'm not sure there is such a simple dichotomy, though. It has so much 
 to do with temperament and perspective.
 Indeed.  Rosegarden is a perfect example.  If I could go spend, say, 
 $500 once for something that did everything Rosegarden wants to do, and 
 behaved in a pretty similar way all around, then I probably would have 
 parted with that cash years ago.  The problem is you can spend a lot 
 more than $500 for two or three different applications that don't even 
 communicate with each other, don't share data amongst themselves, etc.  
 Not only do you not get the Rosegarden that works that you pay for, you 
 don't pay for it once.  Oh no no.

 I was still using a version of Cakewalk that only understood 8.3 
 filenames all the way to 2001.  I paid for it once in 1993 or something, 
 and I was damn well going to keep using it forever.

 That's the great thing about FOSS.  Free updates for life.  You don't 
 pay once, you don't pay ever, and the updates just keep flowing.

 The crappy thing about FOSS is that that old version from 10 years ago 
 that worked perfectly will no longer compile on a modern system.  Just 
 look at all the hell we went through keeping Rosegarden alive through 
 the Qt 4 nightmare.  This means that whether you do it today or next 
 month or a couple of years from now, sooner or later you're going to 
 have to upgrade your entire system from top to bottom.

 When you do, you may break half the world.  Or at least break the most 
 important application you use every day.

 When that happens, there's just no good answer.  Can I pay money for a 
 KMail that actually works, and doesn't break the continuity of 11 years 
 of the same ~/Mail folder?  Apparently not.  Whether I pay money or not, 
 I'm still just shit out of luck on that front. Thanks, KMail developers, 
 for completely destroying an application I've been using at least a 
 dozen times a day for 11 years.  Even though I'm a developer and I well 
 understand how hard this whole game is, I'm more than half tempted to go 
 create a KDE bugs account for the sole purpose of extending them a big 
 fuck you.

 It wouldn't be productive at all, or fair, but it might be cathartic.

 Bitter?  Not me.  No, never.

 We'll see how Thunderbird fares.  I have deep concerns that this message 
 is going to come out in HTML.  If so, I apologize.  I'll figure it out 
 in due course.  It looks like this is my KMail replacement, and it's a 
 huge improvement so far, because I can actually click on a message and 
 read it any time I want.  Plus, it's not webmail.  I detest webmail.

 /rant


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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-30 Thread Abrolag
On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 09:25:36 -0400
John wildber...@cogeco.ca wrote:

 I wonder how few Linux users  are aware of the restrictions imposed on the 
 use of open source soft ware.  Legal restrictions as well as moral 
 restrictions.
 Then there is the ever occurring bragging of the long uptime.  If you  use 
 your computer for simple re- occurring tasks and nothing else, it does not 
 matter what operating system or what distro you use, you will experience a 
 long up time. 
 Computers are tools, and good craftsmen choose the best tools to do the job. 
 Only amateurs try to get by with inferior tools and spend unreasonable time 
 to keep them sharp and working.
 
 John

Please let me know of these legal and moral restrictions. I am not aware of any.

I don't know about long uptimes. I switch off after every session - why waste
money on powering an unused system. Also, I rather like the fact that my
computers are actually ready for use within a minute of switch-on.

I agree about using the best tools for the job, that's why I use Rosegarden and
(mostly) Yoshimi on a debian based installation.

P.S.
Absolutely everything on my website has been produced with linux, and guess
what, my ISP has the same idea.

-- 
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-30 Thread Michael N. Moran
On 08/30/2012 11:52 AM, S. Christian Collins wrote:
 FWIW, I have been using Thunderbird for years as my e-mail client of
 choice, and it has never let me down.  I've got seven e-mail accounts
 coming into it, using Lightning for my calendar (synced up with multiple
 Google calendars).  I've got tons of stored e-mails all the way back to
 1999 and all of this running off of an encrypted flash drive so I can
 move it between my PC and my laptop.  Thunderbird may look kinda ugly in
 KDE compared to Kmail, but it's all about the functionality for me.

I hate to waste bandwidth and mindshare but... I agree with 
Mr. Collins.

I've been using Thunderbird (and whatever its predecessors 
were called)
since 1998 (one up ;) and it's always been able to keep up 
with my old
e-mail archives and ... I save everything but spam.

Ugly? Maybe. But I'm always distraught when I use other 
e-mail clients that
seem to want to simplify my life too much.

just sayin'

I wish I had more time to use Rosegarden, but it's a great 
app for a musical
amateur such as myself.

-- 
Michael N. Moran   (h) 770 516 7918
5009 Old Field Ct. (c) 678 521 5460
Kennesaw, GA, USA 30144http://mnmoran.org

So often times it happens, that we live our lives in chains
  and we never even know we have the key.
Already Gone by Jack Tempchin (recorded by The Eagles)

The Beatles were wrong: 1  1  1 is 1


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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-30 Thread Chris Cannam
On 30 August 2012 18:47, jimmy wg20...@yahoo.com wrote:
 But the ignorant people always think because they pay for something they must 
 have something worth-while, especially the more expensive stuff.  But hey, 
 its their money.  There's one born every minute.

Nope, that's not right. There are perfectly sound (economic) reasons
why paying for software should often get you software that works
better for your needs. John is quite right.

Equally, there are reasons for the opposite. The money involved might
be a really big deal for you, and the thought of _having to make the
right choice_ that spending money entails might be an even bigger one.

Emma Coats, a former Pixar story artist who has had some publicity
recently for her series of snippets about how to make characterisation
work in stories, also posted a series of links to free-software
programs for animation and storyboarding, along these lines:

https://twitter.com/lawnrocket/status/239097181460643841

I think this line of thought is a sound one, and it isn't even an
angle I'd thought much about before.


Chris

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-29 Thread Abrolag
On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 09:36:26 -0400
John wildber...@cogeco.ca wrote:

 I still use Linux for the mental challenges it provides me, but for programs 
 that I need for my personal use, I prefer to pay in real money and not by 
 time spent to make programs work.
 I have reached the point in life where I become immune to the accusation of 
 being to lazy to learn how to make programs to work.  I rather prefer to 
 spend my time to smell the roses.
 
 John

Well, I totally disagree with this. My DAW was installed about 4 years ago,
apart from the occasional security update it has remained unchanged. Although,
yes, I occasionally update Rosegarden from SVN and also Yoshimi, neither of
which it particularly difficult.

My office machine was installed even earlier, and the only reason I
re-installed the OS was because I'd tried playing silly buggers with it,
knowing full well the risks. So it was no loss, because it is now running
debian wheezy very happily.

-- 
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-29 Thread Chris Cannam
On 29 August 2012 14:48, Richard Bown richard.b...@ferventsoftware.com wrote:
 On 29 Aug 2012, at 15:36, John wildber...@cogeco.ca wrote:
 [...]
 I have reached the point in life where I become immune to the accusation of 
 being to lazy to learn how to make programs to work.  I rather prefer to 
 spend my time to smell the roses.

 Well said, sir.

I'm not sure there is such a simple dichotomy, though. It has so much
to do with temperament and perspective.

For instance, I'm sure that (of historical Rosegarden developers) you
and Guillaume would agree that your lives have been more pleasant
since you stopped having to apply the principle that it has to be
beaten into shape in order to work in Linux and switched to other
platforms in which you get things done more readily. Revisiting other
operating systems in the light of your experience with Linux, you find
one of them more satisfying and switch -- contentedly, I assume.

On the other hand I've had similar experience of other platforms and
found that, in comparison, Linux is the one I most enjoy using, for
many largely subjective reasons. So the same experience has made me
more content as well, but in a different way.

As another example -- John wrote, likely accurately,

 A number of writer to this thread made reference to their recently discovered 
 new distro [...] The next update will bring them back to reality.

But another way of looking at the ebb-and-flow is that, provided the
basics of the OS remain the things you always liked about it, you can
mostly just ignore the passing fads -- so long as you can stick with
the configuration you like and adapt away configurations you don't get
on with, the platform will always come back to you eventually.

I think the root of Michael's problem is that he feels stuck with this
one operating system -- whether for financial reasons or because of a
gloomy expectation that nothing else is going to work for him either.
So he hasn't had the opportunity either to decide to let it go, or to
relish the good things about it.


Chris

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-29 Thread Richard Bown
On 29 Aug 2012, at 23:14, Chris Cannam can...@all-day-breakfast.com wrote:

 So he hasn't had the opportunity either to decide to let it go, or to
 relish the good things about it.

It's a fucking operating system.  Get over it.

R

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-29 Thread jimmy


--- On Wed, 8/29/12, John wildber...@cogeco.ca wrote:

 I still use Linux for the mental challenges it provides me,
 but for programs that I need for my personal use, I prefer
 to pay in real money and not by time spent to make programs
 work.


Perhaps you shouldn't even bother with Linux at all, pay for Windows, or OSX 
apps for everything you want to use, Rosegarden, Lilypond probably can't be 
compare to the well polished professional apps out there.



 I have reached the point in life where I become immune to
 the accusation of being to lazy to learn how to make
 programs to work.  I rather prefer to spend my time to
 smell the roses.
 
 John

Sure people can chose what they want do to.  There are plenty of people who 
couldn't and wouldn't learn how to program the clock on a Microwave, or VCR.  
No big deals.

Jimmy





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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-29 Thread jimmy


--- On Wed, 8/29/12, John wildber...@cogeco.ca wrote:

 A number of writer to this thread made reference to their
 recently discovered new distro (whatever !) that is not
 suffering from any of the known illnesses. I can assure them
 that they are living in a dream world. The next update will
 bring them back to reality.

Stick with a commonly used distro, and learn how to use it properly.  Distro 
hopping are like fashion followers, there are always new hats, new ties, new 
eye glasses, new dresses, new shoes, new cell phones...

But of course, for newbies who haven't chosen a Linux distro yet, some 
recommendations are not such a bad idea, either, especially the newbies in the 
Linux MIDI arena.

My use of Linux and Open Source apps are because I simply don't want to agree 
to draconian terms of the EULA (End User's License Agreements), and having to 
jump through all the hoops to back up and restore my computer, and associated 
applications.

I want to install, copy, backup my OS and softwares on to different computers 
of my choice, when I do my hardware upgrades.  Or having a working spare 
system in place, so when my main computer has a problem, I can fairly quickly 
get my work done without interruption.  And I don't want to pay double, triple, 
quadruple the licensing fees, just because I have a few some older computers 
sitting around.  Some people don't even bother to read EULA, nor care to 
understand those legal terms, but most of them don't even allow the OS, or 
applications to be copied on to a running (operarting) computer so that such 
softwares can be readily run.

Worse than that, many proprietary applications have their own data format.  
Years down the road, when I need to read such data files, those apps may not be 
installable, or runnable on my latest computer(s), and the older computers or 
hard drives may have died long before that.

With most Open Source softwares, the data file format can be read and data be 
extracted or converted much more readily.

Jimmy



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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-28 Thread Lorenzo Sutton
I can feel your pain... When I faced upgrade threats for my Ubuntu 10.04 
LTS I sensed something had taken the wrong direction with Ubuntu.
While Ubuntu was the distro which really helped me to get seriously and 
permanently into Linux I felt it was taking the wrong decisions at each 
upgrade. Ubuntu had worked out of the box on my laptop for wifi and most 
importantly audio (and mostlt rosegarden itself, Pd and ardour) - then 
came the pulseaudio pushed onto the desktop even if still barely beta...

So I decided to switch to 'mother' debian, and understood how naive I 
had been to consider it too 'complicated' and favour ubuntu, and that 
getting hardware to work isn't that hard really.

And now I'm happily using debian testing XFCE (so popular for GNOME 2 
'expats') after savouring a half hour of both GNOME 3 and Unity 
insanity. And it looks like XFCE will be the default in the next debian 
release.

As for the so-called progress thing, it's hard to tell, many people who 
are starting their Linux adventure like Unity or GNOME 3 'easy-ness'. 
What I know is that when I have to open a Windows or OSX desktop the 
restraint feeling is strong and pervasive, the closeness. On linux even 
on a GNOME 3 machine I have that feeling of 'well you could always 
install XFCE or something lighter alongside... it's always refreshing. 
It's still a rich and varied ecosystem, often a bit chaotic and 
dispersive - but, at least in my humble opinion, more fun :)

Lorenzo.



On 27/08/12 16:08, D. Michael McIntyre wrote:
 I'm writing from GMail in a web browser.  I hate using a web browser
 for email, and have been using KMail for over 10 years.  I love KMail.

 So somewhere after midnight I got the upgrade notification thing from
 my running Kubuntu 10.04 LTS that 12.04.1 was available.  Interesting.
   That's the first time in years I've actually gotten one of those
 notifications.

 I decided to burn some hours fooling around, and give it a go.  How
 much breakage could there be?

 The clicky link thing failed immediately with error code 1, but no
 matter.  I googled it, and figured out I should run some sudo thing
 from the command line.

 That failed about five times in a row, with several minutes between
 each iteration, because I had a lot of trouble freeing sufficient
 space on /var, but it did eventually get me there without any
 additional issues.

 I was pretty impressed that it replaced several thousand packages
 without giving me the sense that anything too awful was going to get
 broken.  My old installation was, well, old, and full of random little
 cruft nuggets.

 So that was around 0400 when it first booted, and here it is around
 1000 by now, and I'm posting this from my shiny new GNOME Classic
 desktop.  I took one look at the non-classic GNOME and could scarcely
 decipher the completely mutilated train wreck of a thing it called a
 desktop, so I tried the classic version instead, and it looks...
 Well, identical.  They're both just spectacularly awful.  I can't
 imagine why anybody would use this hideous piece of shit for more time
 than it took to find the logout button.

 Oh, and every single word I type is in red, because the language stuff
 apparently got screwed up in all this too.

 As for KDE?  Forget about KDE.  Hours of googling errors later, I
 finally gave up and installed GNOME, which is completely unusable, but
 at least it doesn't fail instantly with a cryptic error for which
 there is no solution in all of google space.

 There are many references to the lnusertemp thingie not working, going
 back for years and years, but not a single hint or tip contained in a
 single one of them was useful.  Not unless you consider it progress
 that I graduated from an instant failure to X11 coming up in a black
 screen with an endless stream of meaningless errors on the console
 anyway.

 I've been doing my bit to make all of this better for 10 years now,
 and it's extremely depressing to see that everything is just as bad,
 if not worse, than it was the first time I tried Linux 11 years ago.
 This is progress?  This is a completely and hopelessly broken train
 wreck.

 I guess I have to figure out how to use the GNOME crap to download and
 burn an ISO and do a clean install.  Maybe that will work.

 My computer had been up for almost 18 months before I decided to try
 upgrading it.  You'd think I would have learned that for every stable
 thing in Linux there are 50,000 hopeless train wrecks in between.

 I tire of this so-called progress.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-28 Thread Mario Moles
Dear Michael 
I've never used Ubuntu so I can not talk about it!
I use ROSA-2012 (Russian version of Mandriva) http://www.rosalab.com/ 
with kde4.8.4 and the repo MIB http://mib.pianetalinux.org/blog/ which ROSA 
takes the kernel-nrj (low-latency). I, like you, am a user kmail since it 
exists! Even this mail comes from kmail! I use kmail starting kontact! Kmail 
akonadi needs to work so be sure to install all the modules akonadi! I think 
we all know that when you rewrite software to make a jump this jump is never 
painless! Also I Mandriva-Rosa I suffered when it was new kmail-kontact
but now I use it with sufficient satisfaction! Problems still exist with 
filters to sort messages into different folders but nothing terribly 
irritating! I am sure that in future releases these little problems will be 
solved! Hang in there! Support kde and kmail! Revolutions require work!
Greetings and good luck!
-- 
oiram/bin/selom
Da ognuno secondo le proprie capacità ad ognuno secondo i propri bisogni.
Linux
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-28 Thread Jim Cochrane
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 10:08:36 -0400
D. Michael McIntyre michael.mcint...@rosegardenmusic.com wrote:

 I'm writing from GMail in a web browser.  I hate using a web browser
 for email, and have been using KMail for over 10 years.  I love KMail.
 
 So somewhere after midnight I got the upgrade notification thing from
 my running Kubuntu 10.04 LTS that 12.04.1 was available.  Interesting.
  That's the first time in years I've actually gotten one of those
 notifications.

IMO, the IT world is in a major transition period, which started
somewhere around 4 years ago (probably with the iphone), and will
continue until, perhaps, somewhere between 2016 and 2020.  (Hopefully,
it will not extend much beyond that - otherwise, it will be more
painful than some can bear.)

As most (probably everyone) on this list knows, the main transition at
this point is from the desktop (GUI on a PC - Windows for most
people, but also OSX and Linux) to either or both of:

  - mobile/tablet-based apps, most of which make heavy use of web
and/or internet connections.

  - web-based applications, where the main characters are the browser
and a web server, a group of web-servers, and/or cloud-centric
systems (which, perhaps, is a synonym for group of web-servers).

For both of these options, most of the work will be done on servers on
the web and the user's computer will be mainly a client making use of
services running on these servers.

Unfortunately, this transition is causing, and will continue to cause,
major growing pains for those who are used to (i.e., almost all of
us) the current system/paradigm.  These growing pains are showing up in
the Linux world as, for example, the GNOME team's desire to push
their project into this new world/paradigm, and their users' resulting
pain in finding things don't work as they used to - the transition is
only, perhaps, 1/4 to 1/3 complete, and how it will actually turn out
in the end is known only to those who both have access to, and have
been willing to use, a future-oriented time machine (which is, likely,
no one).  Everyone else has to guess, and it's likely that most guesses
will be off by quite a bit.

In the meantime we are stuck with these painful transitional
technologies, such as GNOME 3 and Ubuntu's Unity, which to many people
seem like (and perhaps are) monstrosities.  I don't think the Linux
world is alone in being affected by these transitional pains - many
people are wondering what the fuck they are going to do when Windows 8
(or Metro, or whatever-the-fuck it's being called now) comes out.  It's
trying to bridge this transition, too, and, IMO, is not doing a very
good job of it.  (Prediction:  Microsoft will be, in about 10 to
15 years, the Sears of high-tech companies - they just don't have the
right philosophy, vision, and creativity needed to keep up.)  Apple may
do better than both MS and Linux, but their position at or near the top
in the near future is nowhere near guaranteed.

And - again in the meantime - we have to make do with what we currently
have in this confusing transitional period.  The people (IMO) likely
to feel the most pain in these times are the pseudo-geeks: those like
Michael and most of the rest of us on this mailing list who have a fair
amount of geeky skills/talents, but not enough to know how to maneuver
around the obstacle course of changes resulting from this transition.
The more common naive Joe/Sally user can for the most part trust MS (at
least until MS becomes a has-been, which will take several years) or
Apple to tell them what to do and will likely not have enough demands
such that they experience great pain (maybe a little, but not like
having, say, an amputation).  And the true-geek will be able to use
their pain to direct themselves to a workable, perhaps
partly-hacked-together, solution.  But the pseudo geek will likely have
the demands to insist on something better than what's available, but
not the skills to whip something up that will fulfill what they need.
Result: mucho pain.

But - to allude to the subject of this thread -:  I don't think this
automatically leads to the conclusion that things look bad for the
future of Linux.  Linux is used, probably, (mainly because of Android)
in more devices these days than any other major OS (i.e., Windows,
Windows-phone, IOS, OSX).  And Linux appears to be the de facto OS for
most embedded devices these days.  Also, Linux is what Chrome OS is
based on - another future-web/cloud-oriented technology.  With all this
reliance on Linux and with all the talented/skilled developers on this
planet with approximately 7 billion people, it seems likely to me that
something very good and useful will emerge in the next 5 to 10 years.

It may take a while, and we may have to go through quite a bit of pain
until then, but I think it's likely something workable for us
pseudo-geeks will show up well before we die.  Until then, I'm finding
KDE4 on Fedora 17 quite workable.  (I've been using KDE for many 

Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-28 Thread Noel Darlow
Hi

 IMO, the IT world is in a major transition period

Actually I think we're in a major cloud-bloviation period. Sure it has
its place but I expect it to be a parallel option to desktops, not
a replacement. It's a kind of IT Lite for those with several
lightweight devices who don't really need the power of a modern
computer. There are always going to be security issues handing your
data over to someone else and of course the obvious one of how do you
get any work done when the network is down. 

Desktops are cheap and highly modifiable and will last for as long as
people have desks to put them on.


Noel

PS: for a highly tweakable system with an excellent package manager I
recommend gentoo and http://www.aperiplus.co.uk/downloads/gentool.htm.
Bootable backups take all the pain out of upgrades.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-28 Thread jimmy


On Tue, 28 Aug 2012, Jim Cochrane m_l-...@business.jimcochrane.info wrote:

 As most (probably everyone) on this list knows, the main
 transition at
 this point is from the desktop (GUI on a PC - Windows for
 most
 people, but also OSX and Linux) to either or both of:
 
   - mobile/tablet-based apps, most of which make heavy
 use of web
     and/or internet connections.
 
   - web-based applications, where the main characters
 are the browser
     and a web server, a group of web-servers,
 and/or cloud-centric
     systems (which, perhaps, is a synonym for
 group of web-servers).
 
 For both of these options, most of the work will be done on
 servers on
 the web and the user's computer will be mainly a client
 making use of
 services running on these servers.

I have seen enough to say that, sure, there is some changes.  But most of them 
are the numerous companies trying to one-up each other with so claimed 
innovation.  Just happens those things are new code base with little testing, 
trying to claim first to market.  So the users are guinea pigs.

The *buntu distros are also dumbing down the user experience the same way 
Windows, Macs, Cell phones are.  They claim to make things simple for the 
users.  I'd say they want to keep the users from knowing too much, and that 
there are other ways of doing things, not just what presented by the GUI.

The software industry have had many server-centric, then PC-centric, now back 
to server-centric (cloud, web-apps...)  They are just the companies to sell new 
softwares along with suport and service contracts... churning the market for 
new revenues.  Abandoned softwares need support contracts, or migration cost of 
developing for the newest trend today.

Sure the cell phone and tablet with wireless capabilities add a little bit more 
to the flexibilities, but again, they are driven by large software companies's 
drumming up of new revenue sources.



 In the meantime we are stuck with these painful
 transitional
 technologies, such as GNOME 3 and Ubuntu's Unity, which to
 many people
 seem like (and perhaps are) monstrosities.  I don't
 think the Linux
 world is alone in being affected by these transitional pains
 - many
 people are wondering what the fuck they are going to do when
 Windows 8
 (or Metro, or whatever-the-fuck it's being called now) comes
 out.

No we don't have to stick with the new default desktop or default GUI the 
*buntu chose to use.  You can install any other desktops and use that.  You 
don't have to stick with the PulseAudio, you can disable it, or uninstall it.  
If that's too much work to fight the current within the distro, perhaps switch 
to a more customizable distro is less of a hassle in the long run.

Just as many of us abandoned Windows because they have made it hell to back up 
and restore the OS to/from bare hard drive.  And with the Knoppix liveCd of a 
dozen years or so ago, it's a whole new world of simpler data recovery, and 
installation of Linux.  We can decide what we use, not what they try force us 
to use.

The more we learn the underlying components that make up our system and tools 
available, the better we are to make the computer work the way we want.  Not 
how they want us to do, their way.

I have seen enough of the churning changes.  Unity is only available on *buntu, 
because none of the other distros care about it at the moment.  I will stick 
with what works and not be guinea pigs.  Thanks, but no thanks.


 And the true-geek will be
 able to use
 their pain to direct themselves to a workable, perhaps
 partly-hacked-together, solution.  But the pseudo geek
 will likely have
 the demands to insist on something better than what's
 available, but
 not the skills to whip something up that will fulfill what
 they need.
 Result: mucho pain.

Well so-called true geeks are just people who believe they have seen enough to 
know that Linux/Unix can be customized however they want.  They are not the 
know-it-all either.  They spent long hours to learn how things are done and 
replicated those scripts and programs, learning from open-source code available 
to them.  I simply say that the geeks are just determined to get it done be 
cause they it can be done.

Pseuodo geeks are either newbies, or wannabe's who haven't spent time to learn 
how things work, or are afraid of spending time to learn.

Most people who have spent time to learn how to get jackd/qjackctl, 
fluidsynth/qsynth, rosegarden, MIDI working on a low-latency Linux kernel is a 
Linux MIDI geek already.  Perhaps not a Linux sys-admin geek, or Bash script 
geek, Perl geek, Python geek...  It's just a matter of how much one really 
wants to learn, and spent the appropriate time to learn, that's all.  The other 
side of that is ignorance.

Jimmy




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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-27 Thread Noel Darlow
Hi

Long time XFCE user here. I can't remember ever having a problem. 

Noel

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-27 Thread Holger Marzen
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012, Noel Darlow wrote:

 Long time XFCE user here. I can't remember ever having a problem. 

XFCE4 ist *my* successor of KDE3.

http://www.marzen.de/tmp/xfce4.png

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-27 Thread Abrolag
Like the others, I offer my sympathy for what little it's worth.

I've tried a variety of distros form Mandrake, to Slackware and derivatives,
but always seem to come back to Debian. I now have a two text files, one with
step-by-step instructions on a cold install to my preferred 'office' setup, and
the other a similar one for my DAW.

I install the basic image *without* desktop etc. then load in just the bits I
want. It is actually much quicker than you'd expect - especially when you
realise that apt-get -install synaptic will magically drag in most of X too :)

-- 
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-27 Thread Chris Cannam
On 27 August 2012 16:04, Chris Cannam can...@all-day-breakfast.com wrote:
 I think XFCE is a fair option for people who were happy with the
 previous generation of desktops and are quite content to watch history
 pass them by.

Of course, this is a problem if those people are developers, since
they end up not testing their software in the environments that most
people actually use. Recent reports of problems with RG under Ubuntu
Unity, which no RG developer really knows how to respond to, are a
case in point.

For my part, these days, most of the software I write is (sadly) used
on other platforms more than on Linux -- this does at least mean I get
to develop on Linux as a sort of neutral platform that I can align
more to my own preferences and habits than to anyone else's. In fact,
I am probably as happy with it now as I ever have been.

I use Arch Linux, which has a rolling update schedule without any
numbered releases. It's worked well for me. They seem to be getting
more and more ambitious in the sorts of changes they include in
rolling updates, which is sometimes problematic -- this year there
have been three updates requiring significant manual input -- but it
has never yet actually broken anything for me, it always just refuses
to update until I go back and read the instructions. If you don't mind
reading instructions, and remember to do so, it's fine. It has the
benefit of clarity, it's generally easier to fix than Ubuntu (or other
operating systems) if it does break.


Chris

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] The future of Linux sure looks bleak...

2012-08-27 Thread Chris Cannam
On 27 August 2012 18:02, S. Christian Collins
s_chriscoll...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Sorry to hear your upgrade didn't go well, Michael.  I've had a few things
 break over the years during upgrades, but nothing so completely trashed as
 what it seems you experienced.  I'm currently using the latest Kubuntu
 12.04, and I have to say I'm quite spoiled by KDE.

That's interesting -- I was put off KDE4 very quickly when it first
appeared, simply because of the ugly putty-like theme it used by
default, and I probably never gave it the time it really deserved.
It's good to hear from people who have found that it all works out for
them. I'm happy at the moment with XFCE4, but alternatives are always
nice.


Chris

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